HomeMy WebLinkAbout09/07/2011 Regular Council MeetingCOUNCIL MEETING
September 7, 2011
The Council Meeting of the Council of the County of
order by Council Chair Furfaro at the Council Chambers,
Lihu`e, Kauai, on Wednesday, September 7, 2011 at 9:45
following members answered the call of the roll:
Honorable Tim Bynum
Honorable Dickie Chang
Honorable KipuKai Kuali`i
Honorable Nadine K. Nakamura
Honorable Mel Rapozo
Honorable JoAnn A. Yukimura
Honorable Jay Furfaro, Council Chair
APPROVAL OF THE AGENDA:
Kauai was called to
3371 -A Wilcox Road,
a.m., after which the
Mr. Chang moved for approval of the agenda as circulated, seconded by
Ms. Yukimura, and unanimously carried.
MINUTES of the following meetings of the Council:
Council Meeting of August 3, 2011
Public Hearing of August 3, 2011 re: Bill No. 2410
Council Meeting of August 17, 2011
Mr. Chang moved for approval of the minutes as circulated, seconded by
Ms. Yukimura, and unanimously carried.
CONSENT CALENDAR:
Council Chair Furfaro: Now, Mr. Clerk, I would like to move to the
Consent Calendar, and for those of you in the audience, I want to again point out
that the council's new rules allow for a consent calendar of items that are routinely
approved or received. Under the new rules, the county clerk has actually prepared
on the council agenda those items which in fact can be handled on the consent
calendar. Mr. Clerk...
C 2011 -240 Communication (08/03/2011) from the Chief, Building Division,
Department of Public Works, transmitting for Council information, the Monthly
Report on Building Permit Information for the month of July 2011, which includes
the following:
1) Building Permit Processing Report
2) Building Permit Estimated Value Summary
3) Building Permits Tracking Report
4) Building Permits Status
C 2011 -241 Communication (08/08/2011) from the Director of Personnel
Services, transmitting for Council information, the Fourth Quarter Reports (April —
June 2011) relative to vacancies, new hires, reallocations and promotions in the
County, pursuant to Section 20 of the County Budget Ordinance.
COUNCIL MEETING -2- September 7, 2011
C 2011 -242 Communication (08/10/2011) from the Mayor, transmitting for
Council consideration and confirmation, Mayoral nominee Arryl Kaneshiro to the
Cost Control Commission.
C 2011 -243 Communication (08/12/2011) from the Director of Finance,
transmitting for Council information, the Annual Certified Physical Inventory
Reports for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2011.
C 2011 -244 Communication (08/12/2011) from the County Engineer,
transmitting for Council consideration, a traffic resolution repealing Resolution
No. 54 -91, Section XIII, Item 31 (25 miles per hour in the K61oa District), and
establishing a new maximum speed limit of 15 miles per hour along the entire
length of Niho Road, Koloa District, County of Kauai, State of Hawaii.
C 2011 -245 Communication (08/16/2011) from Councilmember Rapozo,
providing written disclosure for the record of a possible conflict of interest and his
recusal from C 2011 -237 (on the August 17, 2011 Council Meeting Agenda), relating
to the Edward J. Byrne Memorial Justice Assistance Grant, because he is a member
of the company that may contract to provide services funded by the grant.
C 2011 -246 Communication (08/26/2011) from Chair Furfaro, transmitting
for Council consideration, a proposal that outlaws consumption, possession or
control of intoxicating liquor within the parking lots and grounds adjacent to the
Historic County Building, County Annex and Li1hu`e Civic Center.
C 2011 -247 Communication (08/26/2011) from Chair Furfaro, transmitting
for Council consideration, a proposal that outlaws urinating or defecating in public
areas adjacent to the Historic County Building, County Annex and Lihu`e Civic
Center unless in a portable toilet or restroom.
C 2011 -248 Communication (08/31/2011) from Councilmember Chang,
transmitting for Council consideration, a $5,600.00 appropriation from the surplus
and appropriations estimated in the General Fund to fund costs associated with the
County of Kaua`i's responsibility to host the Western Interstate Region (WIR) Board
of Directors Meeting scheduled for October 5 -7, 2011.
Mr. Rapozo: Mr. Chair?
Council Chair Furfaro: Yes.
Mr. Rapozo: If I may, if I'm requesting an item to be taken off
the consent calendar, is it appropriate for me to make that motion now?
Council Chair Furfaro: It is appropriate for you to do that now and it will
require four votes.
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. I would move that item no.
C 2011 -241, which is the communication from the director of personnel services, be
taken out of the consent calendar so we can have some discussion.
Council Chair Furfaro: Very good. May I have a second to the request by
Mr. Rapozo?
Mr. Bynum: Second.
COUNCIL MEETING - 3 - September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Any further discussion? Yes,
Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Just a process, I mean if there's a vote, I support it
100 percent. But I thought any councilmember could just make the request and it
would happen automatically.
Ms. Yukimura: Yeah, right.
Mr. Bynum: So it's just a process question. I think that's what
the rules say.
Mr. Rapozo:
I've been corrected that... go a
Council Chair Furfaro:
Mr. Rapozo:
Council Chair Furfaro:
withdrawing it?
Okay, then I would withdraw my motion. I guess
head.
Okay, so you're withdrawing your motion?
Yes, sir.
Okay. Did you have a second? Are you
Mr. Bynum: Yeah, I'll withdraw it, but because I believe our
rules just say it happens automatically if a councilmember requests it.
(Inaudible.)
Council Chair Furfaro: Well, did that rule vary? I would like to basically
indicate that we should have a majority when we move something off the consent
calendar. We do do it in that accord, but since the motion has been taken back and
the second is taken back, I'll pursue that again next time around.
Mr. Rapozo: I just want to make sure we get it removed from
the consent calendar, and I apologize, Mr. Chair, I should have addressed you, but I
was corrected by Councilmembers Yukimura and Bynum that the rule is that it's a
simple request and doesn't require ... I'll defer to your preference.
Ms. Yukimura: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay. Mr. Clerk, could I ask you to read the new
rule, Rule No. 15, Section (c). I have it highlighted right here so that everybody is
copacetic.
Peter A. Nakamura, County Clerk: Mr. Chair, Rule 15, relating to Agenda
and Priority of Business of the Council, Rule 15 (c), the relevant part reads "A
member may request that an item be removed from the consent calendar for
discussion and separate action. Any item so removed shall be considered after the
vote upon the consent calendar. The council chair may determine the most
appropriate place on the agenda for the removed item."
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay. Now, Mr. Rapozo, do you want to move
forward on the actual removal based on my placement of the item?
Mr. Rapozo: Yes, sir. I would ask that C 2011 -241 be moved so
that we can have some discussion.
COUNCIL MEETING - 4 - September 7, 2011
C 2011 -241 Communication (08/08/2011) from the Director of Personnel
Services, transmitting for Council information, the Fourth Quarter Reports (April –
June 2011) relative to vacancies, new hires, reallocations and promotions in the
County, pursuant to Section 20 of the County Budget Ordinance.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, may I have a second to that.
Mr. Chang: Second.
Mr. Rapozo moved to remove item C 2011 -241 from the Consent Calendar,
seconded by Mr. Chang, and unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you and we will place it at the discretion of
the chairman.
Mr. Rapozo: So I will await the vote of the consent calendar.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, very good. So after that rule review, is there
any further discussion? If not, I'm going to call for a vote on the consent calendar.
All those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Mr. Rapozo: I'll make the motion to receive.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay.
Mr. Kuali`i: Second.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, there has been a motion and a second to
receive the consent calendar. All those in favor, signify by saying aye.
Mr. Rapozo moved to receive the items on the Consent Calendar for the
record, seconded by Mr. Kuali`i., and unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Now, before we go any further with our new rules, I
would like to say there is a period here to take testimony on any item from the
audience — that's part of our new rules —for those that so desire. Is there anyone
here that wants to give testimony specifically in advance of an item coming on the
agenda for today? Anyone? Come right up sir. Please address me, councilwoman.
Ms. Yukimura: Chair, yes. You're talking about our new rule
which would allow anyone to speak if they don't want to stay and wait.
Council Chair Furfaro: That's correct.
Ms. Yukimura: But they will be limited to three minutes.
Council Chair Furfaro: They will be given three minutes. They can speak
now and not be able to come back and speak. The choice is yours. Are you going to
wait?
(Gallery):
We'll wait.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, very good. You'll wait for the appropriate
item to come up and we'll give you the full six minutes at that time. Thank you.
COUNCIL MEETING - 5 - September 7, 2011
Is there anyone that would like to testify now on any item on the agenda?
Seeing no one, very good and we'll go into the placement of 2 -4 -1. Mr. Clerk, I'll
leave it at your discretion.
Ms. Yukimura: Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Let me talk to the clerk first.
Ms. Yukimura: Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: (Inaudible.)
Mr. Rapozo: Yeah, that would be my request. Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: We'll meet your request. Yes, Vice Chair.
Ms. Yukimura: I just wanted to request, because there are people
here who want to speak on a couple of issues, if we don't have members from the
public to speak on this issue, I would like to have it after at least the ... let's
see... maybe 249 and the one on the HSAC Package, 256.
Mr. Rapozo:
Mr. Chair?
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, hold on. Let me get everybody clear and I
suggest that we go back and review the new rules. We are asking if we're going to
have discussion now on the item that has been removed from the consent calendar,
which is item 2 -4 -1. Am I correct, Mr. Rapozo?
Mr. Rapozo: Yes, sir.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay.
Mr. Rapozo: The discussion is going to be very... it's going to be a
request to actually refer to a committee.
Council Chair Furfaro:
Mr. Rapozo:
Very good.
That's all it's going to be.
Ms. Yukimura: No problem then.
Council Chair Furfaro: Now let's take care of this piece of business first
before we get all discombuberated on the approach to handling our business. The
floor recognizes Mr. Rapozo on item 241 that has been removed from the consent
calendar.
C 2011 -241 Communication (08/08/2011) from the Director of Personnel
Services, transmitting for Council information, the Fourth Quarter Reports (April —
June 2011) relative to vacancies, new hires, reallocations and promotions in the
County, pursuant to Section 20 of the County Budget Ordinance.
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you, Mr. Chair. My only discussion is that I
would ask that this item be referred to a committee of your choosing simply because
the attached documentation that we received and it is vacant positions at the
conclusion of the fiscal year, June 30, 2011, but I do want to have some discussion
with personnel simply because of the list that we received, the County of Kauai on
COUNCIL MEETING - 6 - September 7, 2011
June 30, 2011 had 160 vacant positions. The disturbing part is that of that
160 positions, 93 of them are not being recruited for or lists have not been
requested, which is telling me that there is no attempt by the county administration
to fill these positions and what's troubling is that many of these positions are in the
police department. In parks and recreation, there are several park caretaker
positions. Now, again, this may have changed since the change of the fiscal year,
but many of the dates on these vacancies go back many years. These positions, as
you know Mr. Chair, are funded. Some of them are dollar funded, but many of them
are fully funded, which allows the administration to utilize those funds and that's
not proper. So I'm asking that we refer this to a committee and I would suggest the
committee of the whole and that we have members of the administration present,
not just personnel, but departments as well because some of these departments,
according to this report, are not actively recruiting. And as Councilmember
Nakamura reminded me this morning with an 8.5 percent unemployment rate on
the island, I think we should be actively recruiting for these positions and that's my
request. Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: A request has been so stated by Mr. Rapozo. May I
ask for a second?
Mr. Kuali`i: Second.
Mr. Rapozo moved to refer communication C 2011 -241 to the September 28,
2011 Committee of the Whole Meeting, seconded by Mr. Kuali`i.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, thank you. We have further discussion,
members? If not, I'm going to ask for public testimony. Councilwoman Nakamura?
Ms. Nakamura: I want to echo the sentiment expressed by
Councilmember Rapozo. I was going to also ask that this be taken out of the
consent calendar. I had some questions about the report. What the effective date
on this table means? I'm not clear. The effective dates go back to the year 2000 and
as far back as 2005 on some of these, where it says, not recruiting, no request
received. And so it has raised a lot of questions for me. I would be interested in
asking the administration which of these positions are dollar funded and which
ones are not. That would be a good column to see alongside of this list. And also,
what's the rationale because I know in some professions it's very difficult to hire;
we're competing with the private sector for some of these jobs. But I think we need
to know the story behind this list. So I would support this request.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Mr. Kuali`i, then Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Kuali`i: I just wanted to add to what Councilmembers
Rapozo and Nakamura have stated. Some of the questions I did bring up during the
budget process and now, further in looking at this report, I think one thing that
would be helpful is if this was submitted to us in electronic form also, so that I can
do analysis just by working with the table, the Excel spreadsheet. But clearly, if we
want to provide optimal service to our constituents then we cannot have vacant
positions for years and years and years. And if we are going to have it, then clearly
for budgetary reasons we should not be letting those funds build up and then be
used for other purposes without the council playing a role in that. So, some of the
same concerns were brought up during the budget process, which becomes clear,
becomes apparent in looking at this today. Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you, Mr. Kuali`i. Mr. Bynum?
COUNCIL MEETING - 7 - September 7, 2011
Mr. Bynum: I have no objection to having further discussion. I
think that's a good idea, so I'll be supporting that referral. But I also want to say
that this is a report we receive routinely. This isn't anything new and the
administration, I think, has been really straightforward with saying we have dollar -
funded positions and we are choosing not to fill these, like a hiring freeze, because
of the fiscal concerns. I welcome the discussion. And I remember Councilmember
Rapozo, before I was on the council, in the budget process saying, if you know
there's a position that you don't intend to fill the entire year, it should be dollar
funded. And I don't think he won the day in that era, but in a subsequent era we
started having these dollar funded, which is basically saying, hey, we're not going
to, and so I think it's a good discussion to have, but it's not a surprise to me because
we receive this report every quarter, I believe, and the administration has told us
up front that they are not hiring these positions in order to keep the county's
expenditures down. Now how we process that and how we budget for it is a really
welcome discussion.
Council Chair Furfaro: Any further discussion before I speak? If not, I will
be sending over a communication, . and I want to remind everybody, the
communication that we're looking at now is the vacancy and dollar- funded positions
that end the year. This is the ending of the year. This is not the current payroll
period that we're in in this budget operation. So my communication will focus on
two items: (1) I would like the administration to list the current positions that are
vacant that we actually allocated a salary to. (2) Subsequently, I would like them to
give us a second list of those items that are dollar funded because if you recall,
during the budget period, we do have an understanding with the administration
now if they do want to fill a vacancy, the position is held by one dollar, but they
would come before us. So I want to make sure that we first recognize this is year
ending information we're looking at. Secondly, I'll send a communication over and,
Mr. Rapozo, according to our rules these personnel service issues are in my
committee, the committee of the whole. If that's acceptable to you, I will send it
over. Is that acceptable to all members? Okay. On that note, I'm going... Council
Vice Chair?
Ms. Yukimura: If these are vacant positions as of June 30, 2011,
i.e., the end of the fiscal year, should we just wait? Should we receive this and wait
for a current list?
Council Chair Furfaro: Well, I think it wouldn't hurt us to understand how
did we end the year and with what vacancies at one dollar. So I think this is a good
starting point especially for the cost control commission to understand what
positions the administration had, in fact, decided to leave dollar funded to reflect
any possible savings.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: But I do want to remind us that we do have an
understanding if they trigger any of those positions, they would come in front of us.
So if you could trust me to frame the communication appropriately, that's how I'll
do it. I'll do it off of this report.
Ms. Yukimura: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Bynum?
COUNCIL MEETING - 8 - September 7, 2011
Mr. Bynum: It's kind of related that I have an outstanding
request to the administration for some financial statements, the year -end financial
statements, that are, I think, related. So hopefully we'll have that information for
the discussion as well because I'm anticipating receiving that shortly.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, so I assume that's a communication as
finance chairman you sent over already?
Mr. Bynum: That's correct.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, very good, and if it's all right with everyone,
I will schedule this in the committee of the whole, Mr. Clerk, for September 28,
2011.
Mr. Nakamura: There was a motion and a second, Chair. It's to the
28th Committee of the Whole, September 28.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay and I think I should ask if there's anyone in
the audience that wishes to testify on this item. Seeing no one, I'll call our group
back together.
Mr. Kuali`i: Chair, I had one more comment.
Council Chair Furfaro: Go right ahead, Mr. Kuali`i.
Mr. Kuali`i: This brings up, for me, the concern that the
county's cost of labor is our biggest cost and this report only comes forward
quarterly. I don't think I ever want to see this on the consent calendar again. I
think, yes, we can do our analysis one -by -one and separately and we can make our
questions to personnel one -by -one separately, but I think this is an important part
of the constituents' business that we should do in public. Even as simple as it is,
every quarter, I believe, we should address this, perhaps in the committee of the
whole. It may go fairly quickly, but I know that I'll probably have questions every
time because ,I remember now the things that I was most concerned about for the
constituents during the budget process. So just a comment.
Council Chair Furfaro: I can support your request and again, the personnel
items do come under my committee. So a note for the staff, let's not have this
staffing reporting appear, going forward, on any consent calendar. But the motion
for right now is to send over a communication getting clarity on the definition of
frozen salary positions versus budget lines that we're holding with one dollar for
September 28, 2011 Committee of the Whole. We have a motion and a second. All
those in favor, signify by saying aye.
The motion to refer communication C 2011 -241 to the September 28, 2011
Committee of the Whole Meeting was then put, and unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you, Mr. Clerk, so note it. May we go to the
next item?
Mr. Nakamura: We're on page 2 of the council's agenda, Mr. Chair,
on Communications. First communication is communication C 2011 -249.
COUNCIL MEETING - 9 - September 7, 2011
COMMUNICATIONS:
C 2011 -249 Communication (08/18/2011) from the Chair of the Salary
Commission, transmitting for Council consideration, Salary Commission Resolution
No. 2011 -1, relating to the salaries of certain officers and employees of the County
of Kauai, which was adopted by the Salary Commission at its August 5, 2011
meeting.
• Salary Commission Resolution No. 2011 -1
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, I'm looking for item 249, a motion and a
second so we can...
Mr. Rapozo: I'm going to make the motion to receive.
Mr. Chang: Second.
Mr. Rapozo moved to receive C 2011 -249 for the record, seconded by
Mr. Chang.
Council Chair Furfaro:
Ms. Yukimura:
Council Chair Furfaro:
Ms. Yukimura:
to receive.
Any discussion?
Yes.
Go right ahead, Vice Chair.
I want to understand the implications of the motion
Mr. Rapozo: The motion to receive will get this on the floor for
discussion. We need a motion to get it on the floor.
Ms. Yukimura: Right.
Mr. Rapozo: I'm not prepared to approve it. I'm not going to
approve it. The motion to receive will get it on the floor. Any subsequent motions
will be addressed for a different action, but we need to get it on the floor.
Ms. Yukimura: Right.
Mr. Rapozo: And it's a communication that is on the agenda and
I'm making a motion to receive it.
Ms. Yukimura: So, Mr. Chair, just a point of inquiry for our
attorneys or staff, I believe the way the executive salaries are set is by
recommendation of the salary commission. But if we were to receive it, that means
that the salary resolution would stand, the salaries proposed by the salary
commission. Is that correct?
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Clerk, I see the question has been posed. I,
myself, want to make sure that we don't have any other conflict. There are two
pieces here we need to remember. By ordinance we have 60 days to act on this,
which would bring us to October 5. We have an opportunity to reschedule this in
another committee after the members have had some time to digest it, I believe, on
September 28. So can you give us some clarity to Council Vice Chair's question?
There being no objection, the rules were suspended.
COUNCIL MEETING _10- September 7, 2011
Mr. Nakamura: Council Chair, Peter Nakamura, county clerk, for
the record. Just a slight clarification. Yes, the Charter Section 29.03 on the
resolution's subtitle states that the salary commission's resolution becomes effective
60 days after the salary commission approves it.
Ms. Yukimura: Are you... is your mike on?
Mr. Nakamura: Sorry, yes.
Ms. Yukimura: Thank you.
Mr. Nakamura: The salary commission's resolution becomes
effective 60 days after the salary commission approves it. And then it comes to the
council and the council has basically three actions that it may take. By receiving
the salary commission's resolution, it becomes effective in 60 days and the salary
commission's recommendations are set in stone at that point. The charter section
also allows the council to reject sections of the salary commission's resolution or
reject the entire resolution. And that's basically the parameters in the charter
that's allowed for the council in this stage. Council Chair, I would recommend that
because the 60 days would be right about October 5, which would be the next
council meeting after the 21st, and being that there's no committee meeting on the
14th, it may be better to defer, if there is a motion to defer, to defer it to the
September 21 council meeting because there's no committee meeting next week.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay and the date on that first one if we defer?
Mr. Nakamura: September 21 because the next council meeting
after September 21 is October 5, which is right on the date of the 60 days. So I
would recommend staying away from that October 5 meeting.
Council Chair Furfaro: And Mr. Clerk, seeing this communication
came over on August 5, my interpretation of the 60 days is what brought us to
October 5. Am I correct?
Mr. Nakamura: Yes.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay. Vice Chair, you have more questions for the
clerk?
Ms. Yukimura: So yes, Mr. Clerk, if the council wants to reject
certain sections, then it would so move, move to reject section so- and -so and so -and-
so.
Mr. Nakamura: Correct and the only thing I forgot, Vice Chair, was
it takes a five - member vote, a supermajority vote to reject.
Ms. Yukimura: Right, okay. Now, if we want to reject the whole
thing, we can so do that.
Mr. Nakamura: By five votes.
Ms. Yukimura: And what would be the effect? That means then
there would be no pay increases as determined by the salary commission, but the
salaries would remain as status quo?
COUNCIL MEETING - 11 - September 7, 2011
Mr. Nakamura: Correct and what would happen is that in effect the
resolution would go back to the salary commission for further recommendations
that they would need to then put into place if this one is rejected.
Ms. Yukimura: So they would be able to come back with a new
proposal?
Mr. Nakamura: With a new resolution. I think that's what the
charter anticipates if the council rejects, it's sent back to the salary commission for
further recommendations.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay, so there's many things. I think we have
many questions that we want to talk about, so I know... at least I personally would
like to have some discussion today. I don't feel ready to act on the matter, and I'm
fine with a deferral then to the 21st. I mean there are some other issues about
whether the salary resolution sent to us is even legal, so I don't know all the
ramifications of that. But in terms of process and procedure, if the salary resolution
is legal, then our options are to either reject certain portions, reject the whole thing,
or receive the matter now to allow the salary resolution to take effect, assuming it's
legal, in 60 days from its approval or it's not legal and then we have to think about
other options.
Mr. Nakamura: That would be the question for the county attorney,
I believe.
Ms. Yukimura: Right, okay, thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Clerk, we have other questions from other
members for you. I'll recognize Mr. Rapozo.
Mr. Rapozo: I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, I don't have a question. I'll
wait till you call the meeting back to order and then I'll be withdrawing my motion
to receive.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay. He's going to withdraw his motion to receive
when we come back to order. Councilwoman Nakamura?
Ms. Nakamura: I don't have a question if that's the case.
Council Chair Furfaro: If that's the case, okay, very good, thank you very
much, Peter.
Mr. Nakamura: Thank you, Chair.
There being no objections, the meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as
follows:
Council Chair Furfaro:
in order.
Mr. Rapozo:
to receive.
Now, Mr. Rapozo, I will recognize you. We are back
Having that clarification, I'll withdraw my motion
Mr. Chang: I withdraw my second.
COUNCIL MEETING -12- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro:
motion.
Mr. Rapozo:
Mr. Kuali`i:
Okay, so we are at this point that we need a new
My motion will be to reject in totality.
Second.
Mr. Rapozo moved to reject C 2011 -249 in totality, seconded by Mr. Kuali`i.
Council Chair Furfaro: So there is a motion to reject the salary commission
recommendations and a second. On that note, I will open up discussion for those in
the public that would like to speak on the matter. Mr. Stoessel?
There being no objection, the rules were suspended.
HORACE STOESSEL: Good morning, Councilmembers. My name is
Horace Stoessel. I sent a copy of my written testimony to each of you on Friday and
I believe you probably received a hard copy of it today. So I'm not going to dwell on
that testimony as such. What I would like to do is to say that maybe I ought to
begin by saying that this salary resolution is not valid. And I say that not mainly
because it was due by March 15. I say it mainly because the salary resolution that
is currently in effect was adopted in November and became effective the 1st of July
and is effective even though the council has not yet appropriated the salaries in
question. I believe at the present time that the council has essentially two actions
to take. One is according to the motion that you have on the floor now, which is to
reject this resolution in its entirety, and the other is to appropriate these salaries
that became effective the 1st of July. There's a lot more I could say about this and
I'd be willing to say in any kind of dialogue that you would like to have about it, but
I'm not going to prolong this discussion by tossing in other matters. Do you have
any responses to what I've said?
Council Chair Furfaro: If you could hold on just a second. Members, are
there questions for Mr. Stoessel? Mr. Rapozo.
Mr. Rapozo: Yeah, thank you, and Mr. Stoessel, thank you for
your testimony, your continuing testimony. I believe the reason why this is on the
agenda today is because of your public comments that made the paper and really
required the county to move this into action because had you not made this known,
I don't believe we would be here today. I do agree with your comments that in fact
the administration and the county council both made an error by not following the
charter as far as that salary resolution. But am I hearing you correctly that you
would recommend to reject it and have the salary commission basically start all
over?
Mr. Stoessel: Yes and I need to add I have moved quite a bit
myself since I sent in the written testimony. In the written testimony I suggested
only that you reject one column in that salary resolution. But I got an email
yesterday from Councilmember Kuali`i that enabled me to really get to the bottom
of this, to in effect see the elephant in the room which is this: that the current
resolution that is in effect became effective the 1st of July.
Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Mr. Stoessel: And his email contained a question that enabled
me to follow up the testimony that I sent on Friday and I thank him for that.
COUNCIL MEETING -13- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: You still have the floor, Mr. Rapozo.
Mr. Rapozo: Okay, thank you. And I guess ... you know the
salary resolution sets the cap. Is that your understanding that it sets the cap?
Mr. Stoessel: Yes.
Mr. Rapozo: And that the administration has the ability to set
the salary at any level below that.
Mr. Stoessel: Well, I wouldn't just say generally the
administration. The mayor can set certain salaries lower.
Mr. Rapozo: Well, the appointing authority. I take that back.
It's the appointing authority.
Mr. Stoessel: Yeah.
Mr. Rapozo: Okay, but that is how you understand the
resolution? That in fact whatever's on this salary resolution that is set by the
commission, the appointing authority has the ability to pay less than that.
Mr. Stoessel: Yes.
Mr. Rapozo: So would you agree with my philosophy that in fact
the salaries of employees, non - elected employees, should be determined by the
appointing authority and that it shouldn't be set in stone by a resolution?
Mr. Stoessel: Yes.
Mr. Rapozo: In other words, I think a department head of
4 people should not be paid automatically the same as a department head of
300 people. So I think giving the appointing authority that latitude up to a certain
point that's set by the salary resolution, I think that was the intent of the salary
commission. And I know you have been very involved and I'm curious to hear your
points on that.
Mr. Stoessel: Well let me say a couple of things about that. First,
I would prefer not to get into salary numbers at this point. My primary interest is
in getting the salary process straight and once you do that, then you can deal with
the kinds of issues that you just raised. But the other point I was going to make, I
was in the middle of this when these changes were made in the charter in 2006.
And this provision which allows appointing authorities to set the salary lower...
Mr. Rapozo: Excuse me real quick. Can someone go check out
the noise out there? Thank you, thank you. I'm sorry.
Mr. Stoessel: No problem. Allowing the appointing authority to
set the salary lower than the ceiling set by the commission was intended as a
management tool so that whoever is hiring this person, for example, you certainly
wouldn't want to pay a new hire the same as someone who'd been there for years.
And with that authority the person can use the evaluation of the individual's work
as a basis for adjusting salary downward if that is necessary. So I think what
really needs to be emphasized in connection with this is that it's a management
tool.
COUNCIL MEETING -14- September 7, 2011
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you and your testimony really made me
think about the rejection of the entire resolution.
Mr. Stoessel: Good.
Mr. Rapozo: To send it back and have them start the process
because I do agree that the process needs to be cleaned up and we need to respect
the process as outlined in the charter. And I think this is a good example of how not
to do it and I'm going'to be ... hopefully we can get the support to reject it and send it
back. Thank you.
Mr. Stoessel: May I respond to that briefly by saying that the
commission...
Council Chair Furfaro: Can you please pose it as a question?
Mr. Stoessel: I beg your pardon?
Council Chair Furfaro: Can you please pose your next statement as a
question to Mr. Rapozo.
Mr. Stoessel: I did. May I...
Council Chair Furfaro: But you have one more question?
Mr. Stoessel: No, I have one more piece of information.
Council Chair Furfaro: Pose it in a question, Mr. Stoessel, please.
Mr. Rapozo: You want to know what I think about your
comment?
Mr. Stoessel: Why do I have to ask him a question? He can ask
me a question.
Mr. Rapozo: What's on your mind, Mr. Stoessel?
Council Chair Furfaro: No, Mr. Rapozo, hold on. You had your time to
testify. Our rules are very clear. We can respond to you now for questions, not
additional statements. So I'm only asking you, can you pose your statement...
Mr. Stoessel: I will ask Mr. Rapozo a question. Will you please
ask me what would be the implications of your sending this back to the salary
commission?
Mr. Rapozo: I believe Councilmember Yukimura asked that of
the clerk.
Ms. Yukimura: I'll ask a question of Mr. Stoessel.
Mr. Rapozo: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Hold on, before you do. Mr. Stoessel, we have
many people that continue to make statements after their time has expired and the
way we respond to it is through a question. So thank you for honoring my request.
Council Vice Chair Yukimura, you have the floor.
COUNCIL MEETING -15- September 7, 2011
Ms. Yukimura: Yes, Mr. Stoessel, what are the implications, in
your perception, of sending the resolution back?
Mr. Stoessel: Well, the one that I wanted to mention is that the
salary commission has a March 31 deadline for submitting a resolution.
Ms. Yukimura: March 15?
Mr. Stoessel: And the reason for that is that the intention was to
align the salary process with the annual budget process. So if you sent this back to
the salary commission, they couldn't come back here in December with a new
resolution unless that resolution applied to the next fiscal year. In other words,
they couldn't change salaries during this fiscal year. That was the point I wanted to
make.
Council Chair Furfaro: And you're correct and the rule, just for
clarification, is on or before March 15. So if they submit something to us now, it is
clearly for consideration for next year.
Mr. Stoessel: Yes.
Council Chair Furfaro: As long as it's on or before March 15.
Mr. Stoessel: Yes.
Council Chair Furfaro: Councilwoman, you still have the floor.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes, I do, thank you. I do have other questions. So
it is your recommendation, Mr. Stoessel, that we send back or we reject the
resolution in total?
Mr. Stoessel: Yes, I would support the motion that's on the floor.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay, and with respect to salaries, besides the goal
of setting salaries to set the basic amount that a position should receive, which I
believe is part of the salary commission's job, there's also this issue of pay equity
among department heads. And so when the appointing authority is allowed to ... or
when the appointing authority, in some cases, will allow department heads that are
supposed to be equal, more or less, to be higher or they allow increases that others
don't, how do we keep some equity in the process?
Mr. Stoessel: Has that happened what you just described?
Ms. Yukimura: Yes.
Mr. Stoessel: I don't know. I don't have an answer to that
question.
Ms. Yukimura: I mean one possibility is to say that it's a position,
that the maximum salary is set to a position not a person, and I would need some
counsel here from a human resources person where even though the individual in
the position might have a higher salary because of the personal circumstances that
the new coming, if there were a new person coming in, the maximum would be set
lower than what the person in the position has, so a distinction between position
salaries versus personal salaries.
COUNCIL MEETING -16- September 7, 2011
Mr. Stoessel: As far as I understand it, the salary commission, as
far as that goes in the county, has never resolved this issue. And I don't know how
far you can go in resolving it because when you give someone the authority to set a
salary lower than the ceiling, you have to rely on them to use their best judgment in
what salary is applicable at this point. And once you grant that authority, then I
don't see how anyone, the salary commission or the council or the mayor, can force
something different to happen.
Ms. Yukimura: For the person?
Mr. Stoessel: Yes, for the particular situation. But I have
reviewed in some detail the actions of the salary commission since 2007 and I can
say this, I think, with some confidence, that they have not yet paid much attention
to the question you're raising and it might be useful for someone to ask them to do
that.
Ms. Yukimura: Well, actually they did ... they do pay attention to it
on ... we don't have ... the resolution doesn't have page numbers, but it's effectively
page 4. The proposed addition to section 2 or the proposed change to section 2 on
page 4 of the salary resolution in front of us today...
Mr. Stoessel: Yes.
Ms. Yukimura: ...is an attempt of the salary commission to address
that issue. You'll see all the underlining. It's the last page of.. no.
Mr. Stoessel: Page 4.
Ms. Yukimura: Page 4, although it would be helpful to have page
numbers.
Ms. Nakamura: The last page.
Mr. Rapozo: That would be page 5.
Mr. Stoessel: Page 5 and what section are you referring to? Oh,
okay, the part that's underlined under section 2?
Ms. Yukimura: Okay, it's section ... I'm sorry I should say it by
section. It is section... Article 1...
Mr. Stoessel: Is it section 2 on that page, the underlined part?
Ms. Yukimura: Yes, section 2. You'll see that it's an attempt to
address that issue of pay equity amongst the positions.
Mr. Stoessel: I would suggest that it's more a matter of
attempting to correct a mistake they made back in 2009 when they allowed certain
salaries to go forward and deferred others because that's where this supposed
inequity took place.
Ms. Yukimura: Well, it was partly due to the fact that there were
different appointing bodies who acted differently and in some cases there were no
appointing bodies, i.e., in the prosecuting attorney's office. I mean there was an
COUNCIL MEETING -17- September 7, 2011
appointing authority for the deputies, but none for the prosecutor. Just like there
isn't for council and mayor, which are elected positions, there's no appointing
authority.
Mr. Stoessel: Well, it is true that the commission was lobbied to
allow salaries in the prosecutor's office to go forward. But it was still the decision of
the commission that at that point to split up the overall pattern of salaries that they
had established.
Ms. Yukimura: Well, they split it up because the mayor requested
a pull back on the salaries in recognition of the 5 percent pay cuts that the line
employees were having to take and when those under his management adhered to
that request but other appointing authorities that were not under his management
did not adhere to his request, then you got some of these discrepancies. I mean it'd
be really interesting to hear how a human resources approach would address some
of this because there are those issues of pay equity among department heads and
that is one of the goals of the charter. I believe it's stated in there. But because you
have this variation of appointing authorities. If you had a human resources
department, I believe everyone would come under that human resources
department and there would be some controls over salary practices or there could
be. But we didn't have that and so we have this very awkward and non - rational
system creating many problems.
Mr. Stoessel:
I agree with that.
Ms. Yukimura:
Thank you, sir.
Council Chair Furfaro:
(Inaudible) Councilmember Nakamura (inaudible).
Ms. Nakamura:
Good morning.
Mr. Stoessel:
Good morning.
Ms. Nakamura: Thank you for your testimony. Back when we were
working on the budget, I remember the concerns that you raised at that time about
following the salary commission's recommendations which called for salary
increases or set the maximum amount. At that time, we did not receive any word
from the salary commission to do anything but to follow the existing resolution. So
Councilmember Rapozo just pointed out to me that there is a section in the
resolution and I want to just refer to it under Article 1 subsection (c) that says the
administrative officer and employee salaries shall not exceed the maximum salary
provided for in this article at the time of employment. However, the respective
appointing authority may set the salary of any new or existing non - elected
appointee at a figure lower than the figure established for the position. So really,
this gives the various commissions and the mayor discretion to go below the
amounts that are specified.
Mr. Stoessel: Yes.
Ms. Nakamura: And I think that was very different from the
impression that I got earlier that —and maybe this is just my own impression —that
that level was a set level that all ... that the county had to abide by. So now I'm
looking at it in a very different light that really the mayor, even under this scenario
today where the salaries could have been increased on July 1 of this year didn't
have to be increased.
COUNCIL MEETING -18- September 7, 2011
Mr. Stoessel:
Ms. Nakamura:
follow those ... the ceilings.
Mr. Stoessel:
Yes.
And it would not be going against the law to not
Yes.
Ms. Nakamura: So, my question to you is if we send it back to the
salary commission, if we reject this and send it back, what are we asking the salary
commission to do at that point?
Mr. Stoessel: I'm sorry, you said, what are you asking them to
do?
Ms. Nakamura: If the council rejects this today and we send it back
to the salary commission, what are we asking the salary commission to do?
Mr. Stoessel: I don't think you're asking them to do anything.
Ms. Nakamura: Okay.
Mr. Stoessel: You're just saying this resolution is not valid and
we reject it. And it's then up to them to decide if there's something they want to do
in light of that decision.
Ms. Nakamura: And it's not valid because it did not meet the time
frame for submission to the council?
Mr. Stoessel: That's part of it, but...
Ms. Nakamura: Why is it not valid?
Mr. Stoessel: The point is that the resolution that is currently in
effect, which was adopted last November, makes these salaries that are in question
here effective the first of July and they do not have the authority to defer salaries
that have already become effective.
Ms. Nakamura: Right.
Mr. Stoessel: If they want to do something about those salaries,
they have to do something other than defer them.
Ms. Nakamura: Okay. So if they wanted to defer them, they could
have done it by March 15 of this year?
Mr. Stoessel: Yes.
Ms. Nakamura: That would have fed into the budget process?
Mr. Stoessel: Yes.
Ms. Nakamura: That recommendation would have gone to the
mayor, that could have been incorporated into the mayor's budget. But you're
saying the timing of this recommendation is not legal or inappropriate?
Mr. Stoessel: Inappropriate I would say.
COUNCIL MEETING -19- September 7, 2011
Ms. Nakamura:
attorney is if it's legal.
Mr. Stoessel:
Ms. Nakamura:
Mr. Stoessel:
charter says March 15.
Ms. Nakamura:
Mr. Stoessel:
Ms. Nakamura:
I guess maybe that's a question for the county
It may be.
Okay.
Well, no, the timing obviously is not legal. The
Okay.
And this thing is about five months late.
Okay.
Mr. Stoessel: So if you're going to talk about legality, it's not
legal.
Ms. Nakamura: Okay, and then so if the council rejects it and we go
back then to the 7/1/11 salaries, it's still up to the discretion of the appointing body
to set the salary. So if the mayor chooses to give himself his salary from 12/1/08,
that's okay.
Mr. Stoessel: I wouldn't think so because they had that
opportunity... the appointing authorities have that opportunity before the salaries
become effective. And if they wanted to keep this raise from happening, that
decision should have been made before July 1.
Ms. Nakamura: So my question then is the mayor is the supervising
authority for his department heads. So he could choose to give them something
lower than... he could choose to not give them this increase.
Mr. Stoessel: The ones that he appoints, yes.
Ms. Nakamura: So the only person at question here is the mayor's
salary.
Mr. Stoessel: In terms of possibly changing, yes, I think that's
right.
Ms. Nakamura: Everyone else's the mayor or a commission has
authority.
Mr. Stoessel: Well, I don't want to beat on this point, but I don't
see how they could lower that salary now once it has become effective two months
ago. It may be that they can and I don't have any real interest in that issue.
Ms. Nakamura: We'll ask the county attorney that question. Thank
you, Horace.
Mr. Stoessel: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: I have a question from Councilmember Kuali`i,
then I have Mr. Rapozo.
COUNCIL MEETING -20- September 7, 2011
Mr. Kuali`i: The one thing piggybacking on what
Councilmember Nakamura had said, you're saying the salaries become effective.
It's actually the salary cap that becomes effective. So the fact that the appointing
authority can choose the salary; they decide the salary. The salary commission is
just deciding the salary caps.
Mr. Stoessel: Yes.
Mr. Kuali`i: So it's the cap that is in effect on July 1 which has
the $122,000.00 salary for the mayor, not the salary. So the establishment of the
salary by who? I mean the mayor cannot determine his own salary.
Mr. Stoessel:
Mr. Kuali`i:
Mr. Stoessel:
Ms. Yukimura:
No.
Is it the council?
The commission.
No, it's the commission.
Mr. Kuali`i: But all they established was the cap. How are they
establishing his salary?
Ms. Yukimura: For the mayor the cap is the salary.
Mr. Stoessel: The cap is the salary, that's right. Only the
commission can change the mayor's salary or the effective date for it.
Mr. Kuah is Then the other thing I have to state is that to a
certain extent, this charter is flawed. I mean these charter commission members
are appointed by the mayor, confirmed by the council. They're not elected by the
people, but they're making the decisions of the largest cost item to this county.
Labor is the largest cost item to this county. It impacts our real property taxes. It
impacts our citizens in the most intense way, but nobody is really accountable to the
electorate, you know. So to me I think it's sort of flawed in that way. What do you
think?
Mr. Stoessel: Well, I think what that points up is how important
the council's monitoring role is.
Mr. Kuali`i: And yet, wouldn't you say the way the charter is
written, it sort of allows the commission to make those decisions and then "shall be
forwarded to the mayor and the council on or before the 15th." And then the council
has to take action whether to approve or reject. If the council takes no action, it's
automatically approved.
Mr. Stoessel: Yes.
Mr. Kuali`i: And the only way the council can reject it is by five,
a supermajority.
Mr. Stoessel: Five votes, yes.
COUNCIL MEETING -21- September 7, 2011
Mr. Kuali`i: So it's really slanted to giving the commission the
power to make decisions for the constituents, but they're not elected by the
constituents.
Council Chair Furfaro: Members...
Mr. Kuali`i: Let me get to a question, another question.
Council Chair Furfaro: Please.
Mr. Kuali`i: You already answered that question. So now
looking at these columns, right? If we rejected this 7/1/11 deferral to 7/1/13 column,
then the last column that remains in effect is the 12/1/08 column?
Mr. Stoessel: Yes.
Mr. Kuali`i: And were those salary recommendations or what
came from the commission, were you on the commission at that time, did that come
before the council and get approved or was it just ... they didn't take action so it was
automatically approved? I'm just curious historically how this has come forward to
the council and how it's been acted on or not acted on by the council, if you
remember?
Mr. Stoessel: I can give you my perception.
Mr. Kuali`i: Fine.
Mr. Stoessel: My perception is that the council has been very
superficial in its handling of these resolutions.
Mr. Kuali`i: And wouldn't you say too... my final question for
now, Chair, is when the salary commission brings this before the council, shouldn't
it be more than just a listing of positions and salary figures that look like you can
just add percentage increases over certain years. Shouldn't there be some criteria
and justification? I would imagine that on the salary commission you've done that
kind of work to justify not only performance but like the numbers Councilmember
Rapozo had mentioned before about what is a department, what is an agency, what
is a division, how many midlevel supervisors there are, how many employees? I
mean in that sense not just by what the title is but by what the duties and
responsibilities are, the numbers that are being supervised, the types of degrees
that are required. The salary commission is doing all that work, right, so why not,
when they come to the council, bring that information, bring that justification
forward so that we can make an educated decision and a fair decision on behalf of
the citizens.
Mr. Stoessel: I don't think they're doing that.
Mr. Kuali`i: So it's flawed.
Mr. Stoessel: I don't think this is the point at which I should
launch into comments about the way the salary commission has functioned. There
are a lot of things that could be said and I'd be glad, in fact, to have a one -to -one
conversation about some of these things, but I don't want to take up more of the
council's time at this point by starting the commentary about the actions or non-
actions of the salary commission.
COUNCIL MEETING -22- September 7, 2011
Mr. Kuali`i: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you, Mr. Stoessel. Thank you for that
comment.
Mr. Kuali`i: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Stoessel, I just want to recap something for
everyone here because we have other people that will testify. As you note, I had
corrected the date of March 15, on or before, reminding everybody these dates are
tied to the budget process, okay. No different than our property tax deadlines are
tied to the revenue forecast, the March 15 date is tied to the operating budget that
must be approved before July 1 of the following year. That's the important part of
the date. I think Mr. Stoessel has pointed out to us that is the sequence of
approvals and therefore this piece, as recommended by Mr. Rapozo, should be
rejected based on the fact that we need to get back into some kind of a continuity.
He has also acknowledged and this council practices, we see the salary
recommendations only as the cap. This council does practice looking at certain
exceptions to performance reviews and bringing on new people that allows us to pay
under the cap for a period of time. And I think there is a clear understanding that
the testimony today is the timing of this piece is out of sequence with the calendar
that helps us prepare the budget. Mr. Stoessel, I want to thank you for your
comments and you know the motion is on the table. You concur with the motion
and I will seek other testimony from others right now.
Mr. Stoessel: Thank you and thank the council for taking the
time to dig into this.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. No, councilwoman, I am not going to
pose any more questions to Mr. Stoessel. We need to have an HR expert for the
type of questions we posed and we have that option to do it with our legal
department. Is there anyone else that would like to testify on this? Mr. Mickens.
GLENN MICKENS: Thank you, Jay, for the record Glenn Mickens. For
the record, I just want to thank Horace and his wife for all their diligence in
pursuing the salaries our officials get and what our salary commissioners do.
Obviously Horace has expertise in this field that all of us, including you
councilmembers, certainly appreciate. So I just want to bring that to the public's
attention. Thank you, Jay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Any questions for Glenn? No? Anyone
else wishes to testify at this point? Welcome.
SHAYLENE ISERI- CARVALHO, Prosecuting Attorney: Thank you. Good
morning, Council Chair and rest of the members. I apologize, but I've been ill for
the last couple of weeks and just learned about this resolution, basically this
morning.
Council Chair Furfaro: Excuse me, Shay, I will ask you to introduce
yourself.
Ms. Iseri - Carvalho: Shaylene Iseri - Carvalho, Prosecuting Attorney.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you.
COUNCIL MEETING -23- September 7, 2011
Ms. Iseri - Carvalho: I do find it quite interesting that when you look on
the cover page of the resolution that we were not even provided a copy of the
resolution. It appears that the council received its copy on August 18, 2011 and the
only parties that were cc'd to this resolution was the mayor, the managing director,
the personnel director, the finance director, the communications director and the
county attorney. And I find that very disturbing that we were not even given an
opportunity to review the resolution prior to us being here, especially when there is
a huge section on page 6. The pages aren't numbered on the resolution that I have,
that was just provided to me by the county clerk. There's a huge section on
Section 2 that talks about the salary commission finds that current salaries for the
prosecuting attorney, first deputy prosecuting attorney, deputy prosecuting
attorney, county clerk, deputy county clerk and county auditor, which again is quite
disturbing to me because even the county auditor was not included on the cc list for
the resolution to have the opportunity to comment and review, especially on
something that really affects the lives of not only myself, but the deputies and the
rest of the people of Kauai.
Council Chair Furfaro: Shay, I will send over a communication to boards
and commissions to include the two of you urgently and going forward.
Ms.Iseri- Carvalho: However, this is a very serious resolution.
Basically what it seeks to do is remain frozen on July 1, 2013 until such time that
the salary levels paid are comparable to administrative officers and employees
listed under Article 1 have caught up. Now I think it puts the county clerk, the
deputy county clerk —it doesn't, I guess, include the county council chair nor the
councilmembers in this and I don't know why— because it seems to be haphazardly
done, that there was not really any forethought to think about what are the
differences between administrative heads and the differences between elected
officials. The elected officials are held directly accountable to the people and
because of this there has always been really a treatment differential in how the
salaries are made because the appointed people are appointed directly from the
mayor. They push' through an agenda that is supportive of the mayor. The
prosecuting attorney, as well as the county council, should remain independent of
that process. They should have different types of oversight. For example, the
county council has the legislative oversight, whereas the prosecuting attorney has
in effect the judicial oversight for criminal... crimes. And so there is definitely
differences of job descriptions, job duties. Two years ago when there were these
changes, our office spent an extensive amount of time in trying to distinguish
between the job and the roles of the prosecuting attorney versus that of the rest of
the department heads. That, I do not know if it was considered when this
resolution came up. As I said, we did not get any copy of the resolution despite the
fact that it affects our department seriously and also affects the department of the
auditor.
We would ask that this council reject this resolution to give us an opportunity
to respond to the various differences in our roles. It is, in our opinion, very different
when we have the kind of economic crisis that we have, and this is a phenomena
that happens across the country where when the economy goes bad, the work that
we do at the prosecuting attorney's office astronomically increases, and we have
come forward before this council numerous times to explain the increase in the
caseload, the increasing amount of expertise that is needed to prosecute different
types of cases, especially with the advent of the 21st century technology with
phones and phone taps and smart phones and computers and getting all of that
different (inaudible), it requires a totally different level of expertise than what we
were talking about in the administrative head departments, but also again the
roles, I think, to be treated totally separate and not have any tie with the
COUNCIL MEETING -24- September 7, 2011
administrative heads that are appointed by the mayor. Elected positions should
have a totally different assessment and I do not know what kind of discussion was
done at the salary commission. I do intend to request again that all of the hearings
that they did have with respect to this matter so that we can evaluate what
information and if they did have full information in assessing what the level of the
salary should be. I may not be here in 2013. I just think it's the principle of it that
we should have been notified and we should have had the opportunity to comment.
At least if you are doing your due diligence, ask of the department heads that you
are affecting to at least come forward and provide information so that you can be
informed before making a decision. I can tell you that with respect to this matter,
there was absolutely no communication from the salary commission requesting any
appearance by my office or any of our deputies and again I first learned about it this
morning at 9 o'clock while I was at home asleep, ill and felt that it was important
enough for me to come by and to give my thoughts and my feelings with respect to
the position that has been taken by the salary commission. Thank you, Council
Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Any questions for the prosecutor's
office? Thank you for coming to testify.
Ms. Iseri - Carvalho: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Is there anyone else in the audience that wants to
testify on this item?
There being no objections, the meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as
follows:
Council Chair Furfaro: If not, I want to summarize the points that we have
today. The motion on the table is for this council to reject the recommendations. In
principle, it is extremely important that the commission have an opportunity to
evaluate all of the positions that are under the salary recommendations. That scope
of work is under their jurisdiction.
It is also very important for us to re- summarize that the commission in
theory is very separate from the administrative role and the role of the council. I
think that's the underlying piece here that if the administration, in fact, finds
themselves making recommendations on leaving salaries lagging behind the
recommendations of the commission as the caps, they have that authority within
their own process of reviewing performance.
The other point here, clearly the March 15 date is very critical to the timing
of the budget process and so forth and that date, for all intents and purposes, was
missed if we are intending to address something in the current scope of work. But
certainly by rejecting this piece, we can send back to the commission the fact that
anything they do recommend is for the next budget cycle.
Mr. Rapozo, this is your resolution, I'll give you time on the floor. Go right
ahead.
Mr. Rapozo: It's my motion.
Council Chair Furfaro: I mean your motion. Excuse me for that.
COUNCIL MEETING -25- September 7, 2011
Mr. Rapozo: No, thank you, thank you, Mr. Chair, because I
think the discussion was a great one today and I think a lot has been revealed. I
think right off the top, the resolution is invalid. It's a violation of the charter.
March 15 is March 15. It doesn't say "may," it says "shall." This resolution is
illegal. Mr. Stoessel, you said it correctly. It's a violation of the charter. For this
council to act on this resolution in any way except to reject it would be in violation
of the charter. That's number one.
Number two, rejecting this resolution keeps us in compliance with the
charter because we talked about who set salaries, who does what, the salary
commission, as Mr. Kuali`i clearly stated, is set by the commission, the cap. When
we get the budget from the administration, that's the salary and the charter
requires us to appropriate the funds for the salaries in the county. That's the
charter requirement for us. It's a mandate that we shall appropriate the necessary
funds to meet the payroll of our employees. We do that when we get the mayor's
budget. When we approve it, he's telling us these are the salaries that we are
setting. This is it, you need to fund it, and we've done that. So rejecting this puts
us in compliance with the charter as far as the appropriation of funds to
accommodate the salary commission's recommendations, although I do agree there
is some question about who sets the mayor's because he doesn't have an appointing
authority set by the commission and I'll be asking the county attorney for an
opinion and it appears that maybe that is set. I don't see that in the charter. I
don't see that in the resolution. That's going to be something that the legal
department's going to have to determine. I'm really concerned that the commission
is staffed by an attorney. Every commission is staffed by a county attorney, a
deputy county attorney, and yet it still made it to us after March 15 for action that's
going to affect this year's budget. I don't know how that happened and I'm curious
to find out.
The other huge concern is Section 2. Nowhere in the charter, nowhere does it
specify an authority of the salary commission to dictate what can happen after next
year. 2013 is not even the next fiscal year. How can a commission authorize in a
resolution something to affect a future budget? It's totally inappropriate and I
believe a total violation of the charter.
So for those reasons and let me just touch real quick on the management tool.
I think, Mr. Stoessel, you hit it right. It's time to put that accountability in the
department heads and the appointing authority. They need to determine what each
position is worth based on the experience and so forth, degrees and all of that. I
mean to use a paper here and everybody gets the same pay, I think, is ... that's not
appropriate. So I believe that this council has an opportunity right now to send a
message. Let's utilize this tool and let the administration and we have to trust that
they will do that. But we cannot micromanage them. They do what they want to do,
but my point is this: The charter is a very, very strict document. Let me read
Section 23.10 of the charter: And it says, "Penalties. Any violation of a charter
provision, any ordinance, or duly enacted rule or regulation having the effect of law
shall be subject to a fine not exceeding $1,000.00 or one year's imprisonment or both
unless the charter, ordinance, rule or regulation provides for a specific penalty."
The violation of this charter by anyone including this council constitutes a
misdemeanor. You can go to jail for a year. I'm not willing to do that. I don't think
the administration is willing to do that either. This thing needs to be rejected
today, hopefully by a 7 -0 vote, to send a message across saying, hey, please do not
expect us to participate in a violation of the charter. This is and I have no doubt
that it was because of you, Mr. Stoessel, your letter to the editor that triggered this.
And now it's oops, we better clean up this mess, let's do it. But what about the
charter?
COUNCIL MEETING -26- September 7, 2011
It says March 15. Don't worry about that. Maybe the council won't figure it out.
Well, the council figured it out. This needs to be rejected by a 7 -0 vote and I'm
hoping I can get all of your support. Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Bynum?
Mr. Bynum: Yeah, I was waiting for us to call our meeting back
to order so we could have discussion. So I want to even take a step back further and
I want to put this in context because I also am inclined to reject this, but maybe not
for the same reasons. But I certainly want us to continue this discussion so we can
get clarity for the future going forward. So if we reject this today and that's likely
and I want to have an ongoing discussion, so bear with me for a few minutes. I
didn't talk when Mr. Stoessel was up here, but I want to put this in context. If we
go back before the charter changed, we had department heads who were paid, in my
memory in the mid -60s when their employees, the civil service employees serving
under them, were paid much higher because under the old system the council had to
approve these raises directly and be held accountable and the council didn't do that
and so... and this is my opinion, many of our department heads were grossly
underpaid in that period. I want us to have quality people that have the right
authority and the right background and educational background. Some of our
department heads require advance degrees and so I really want to applaud the
salary commission... Well first of all the charter changed. In my mind it was to
make it easier to do these increases because the change said the council doesn't
have to vote on these any more. Whatever the salary commission recommends will
go into place if they just receive it. So if you do nothing, it goes into place. And so
the salary commission in that era, I think felt that our department heads' salaries
and elected people that their salaries needed to increase to be maybe not equal with
the private sector but at least to be able to attract people that have the expertise to
do the work and not make them take a huge ... I mean we were paying engineers
$65,000.00 when they can make $165,000.00 in the private sector. That's a big
sacrifice to ask a professional to make to come and bring their expertise to
government. So I want to applaud that initial salary commission that said, you
know what, we're going to do a large increase next year and we're going to bump it
up for four years. Now that may have been a mistake because it assumed that the
economy would stay strong and everything would go good. And so the initial big
bump happened, our department heads and elected people got a raise and I think
that was appropriate and then there was going to be some built -in increases
happening, but then something happened. The economy turned upside down. All
of a sudden in collective bargaining we were having no raises. We were having our
employees have no increases and it was untenable, I think, to continue to bump up
the salaries, which had already made it up into a reasonable range. And so our
current mayor, when he came in, said, you know what, I don't want this next raise
to go forward. And he approached the salary commission and said, will you defer
this, and I believe, and I know I'll get corrected if I get this story wrong because I'm
going from memory, also to give some latitude for appointed people to do what is a
normal management thing, bring somebody in below the top salary, do an
evaluation/an assessment and have the ability to raise it based on merit. However
the 2009 scheduled increases did not go through for the administration. The police
commission and the fire commission made a similar request of the salary
commission. There was no request to the salary commission, however, for the
prosecutor's office, the county clerk, the deputy clerk, the auditor or
councilmembers, and the raises that were scheduled in 2009 did not go through for
most of the administration, but they did go through for those positions. And that's
what they are today. That resulted as this resolution says in a situation where
some department heads or elected people were being paid more than the mayor. In
retrospect, the council did... nobody made a motion, including myself on the council,
COUNCIL MEETING -27- September 7, 2011
to reject those increases in 2009, and I've discussed that in testimony at the salary
commission in the past. In retrospect, I wish we would have, as a council, kept
everyone in the same boat, so to speak.
Now the problem happened this year, I think, when the salary commission
sent us an increase effective July of this year and that is what's in effect right now.
But it also gave the administration the latitude to not give those increases and they
acted as a cap. I believe the problem, though however, is with the mayor's salary.
And that's an unanswered question from the legal people. Does the mayor have the
authority to keep his own salary lower because who is the mayor's appointing
authority? It's the voters, right. So there's an answer I haven't... does he have the
auth ... because right now we increased his salary to $122,504.00 on 7/1/2011, but we
didn't appropriate that level in our budget because the mayor made it clear that he
didn't want to take that salary increase. The question is does he have the authority
to reject his own salary increase and I haven't heard an answer to that question. I
don't know what the motivation totally because I didn't read the transcripts of the
salary commission, but when this came I thought they would just forego any
increases in 2013. I didn't know how they were going to address the mayor's issue.
But they also are pointing out in this resolution that we have several positions that
did receive increases in 2009 and currently have salaries greater than the mayor,
which in retrospect I wish we wouldn't have done that. But we did. So I think
perhaps receiving this today is the appropriate thing, but I would ask, Mr. Chair,
that we have a subsequent posting to continue this dialogue and to get answers to
the questions that we need to send to the county attorney about if we rectify this.
Mr. Stoessel's testimony has been very helpful throughout this process and he's
really focused on the process, which I appreciate, and he's said in his testimony that
where we may have gone astray was doing these, although well intended, putting
out salary increases that were for subsequent years. And maybe the lesson learned
is that we should deal with the year we're in for that year for the current economic
circumstances. Because even this resolution is saying that in essence in 2013 we're
scheduling increases for all of these individuals. It feels uncomfortable to me in an
era when we just completed an HGEA contract where all of our employees are
having a cut in their take home pay by having to pay increased health premiums.
So right now, talking about anybody's increase in two or three years seems
uncomfortable to me. So I hope we have a subsequent posting if we receive this
today to address some of the issues that have come up during the discussion here
today and to get clarity from the county attorney's office about some outstanding
questions. Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you, Mr. Bynum. Council Vice Chair.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes, thank you. I do think the discussion today has
been very important and rich in terms of the issues raised. I appreciate
Councilmember Bynum's history on the salary issue. When I was mayor the
salaries of civil service employees, many, were higher than the department heads
and it was very difficult to find qualified people to fill those department head
positions. And it was the political process that wasn't working because the council
was setting the salaries of department heads and never set them in a professional
way. They always set them in a political way, which was to depress them. And so
this process of a salary commission has been adopted, I believe, in all the counties
because it wasn't working. Nor was it working earlier when I was in office to have
the department head salaries always be higher than the highest paid civil servant
because they became astronomical, and the public would not stand for it either. So
the salary commission process is actually a result of two systems not working
previously. And I can see that we're still trying to make the salary commission
system work. The legal questions that have come to me as we have discussed this
COUNCIL MEETING -28- September 7, 2011
matter are (1) can salary caps be reduced after July 1 when they take effect; (2) can
the salary resolution, which was legally done in November, which was prior to
March 15 I presume, be amended after it's sent to the council and the salaries are
established by council action or non - action. This whole issue of properly setting the
salary, executive salaries and then having issues like budget, squeezes that require
emergency pay cuts required of civil servants, then can you in an emergency format
amend the salary commission's work because the only ... I mean I think the charter
says changes in salary cannot be done, but this is only for councilmembers. It does
not say ... it does not have a specific prohibition to changes for other salaries. Does
the mayor or other elected officials have the authority to reject their salary
increases? That's another question that has arisen. So, there are these issues
because if a salary resolution can be amended after it has been sent to the council
and established by the council by action or non - action, then this salary resolution
might be okay. I tend to think not because I think there's a strong rationale for that
March 15 deadline, but it still is a legal question that's hanging out there.
The other issue, for me, is why the administration should be separate from
the legislature in terms of salaries, executive salaries. To me the council is one
body, one `ohana and the salaries have to have some equities between department
heads, between county attorneys of different performing functions. And I think
from a human resource perspective, one corporation has some salary equity
amongst all parts of the corporation. So I don't actually subscribe to the idea that
the council and the prosecuting attorney's office are totally separate. And I think
the salary commission looking at that is struggling with this issue. I'm not sure
what the resolution is to this.
And then there's this factor of elected officials and it's hard for elected
officials to set their or other elected officials' salaries. So that's why the salary
commission came in again, as a lay body, hopefully following some professional
salary setting processes to set the salaries for elected officials. But all of this is a lot
of moving parts and pieces. Some of it has been well settled, I think, by this charter
amendment, others, apparently, are not and neither has our implementation of the
charter been very informed or well done and so we're here.
I was really moving toward rejecting the present resolution before us on the
grounds that it is illegal, but I think that question should actually be ... the legal
question can a salary resolution that's been fully vetted through the charter process
be amended still needs to be answered because if it can be, then this is not on its
face illegal. But we may have some policy issues that we think we need to assert as
a council.
Mr. Chang: Excuse me, are you going to ask for a legal opinion?
Ms. Yukimura: Yes, I think we should and I'm putting forward'
these questions as questions we should ask.
Mr. Chang: Are you prepared to ask it like now?
Ms. Yukimura: I have asked it right now. Whether the county
attorney wants to answer it right now is the big question.
Mr. Rapozo: I think we should try.
Ms. Yukimura: All right.
COUNCIL MEETING -29- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro:
attorney.
Ms. Yukimura:
Council Chair Furfaro:
Ms. Yukimura:
Council Chair Furfaro:
I think that's my decision if I bring up the county
Okay, all right.
You want to pose a question? May I hear it again?
I have three.
Okay, county attorney.
There being no objection, the rules were suspended.
Council Chair Furfaro: And may I share something with the county
attorney before you pose the question?
Ms. Yukimura: Please, Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: I think all of you need to realize that in November
we passed the salary recommendations that are now proposed to go in effect on
January 13. During the budget process, the mayor chose not to put those into effect
for his department. So I want to make sure we all understand. This thing gets
even more confusing because he's coming in for a recommendation of something we
already approved in 2010. I'll leave it at that. Council Vice Chair, you have the
floor.
Ms. Yukimura: If you might introduce yourself.
AMY ESAKI, First Deputy County Attorney: Oh, Amy Esaki from the county
attorney's office and just as a caveat the deputy who worked on this is not here
today. She is in the office. If you would like her here, we can give her a call so that
you can ask your questions and get your answers immediately.
Ms. Yukimura: Well, I think it's a matter of your office to say
whether or not you can answer these questions either by yourself or by the attorney.
Ms. Esaki: I think I would need to consult with her prior to us
rendering an opinion.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay. So if I may just repeat formally the
questions. So the questions that at least have been raised for me: Can salary caps
that are established under the charter process be reduced after July 1, after the day
they take effect? That's the question.
Ms. Esaki:
I took that, yeah.
Ms. Yukimura: And then can a salary resolution that has been
vetted through the charter process as was the November 2010 resolution be
amended subsequently?
Ms. Esaki: Yes, I've taken that note down when you were
asking the question to the council (inaudible).
Ms. Yukimura: Okay, are you saying yes, that you got the question
or yes is the answer?
COUNCIL MEETING -30- September 7, 2011
Ms. Esaki: Yes, that I got the question written down.
Ms. Yukimura: All right and then my last question is does the
mayor or other elected officials have the authority to reject their salary increases?
Ms. Esaki: I have that question down as well.
Ms. Yukimura: All right, so those are the three. I don't know if
there are other legal questions that other councilmembers would like answered.
Chair?
Council Chair Furfaro: You know I'm being very liberal here by having all
the questions posed. I'll entertain any new questions that you want to put in in
future correspondence over to them as I acknowledge the fact of the matter that I
have 120 days to put a new item on the agenda. So I certainly would like to say
before you pose any new questions, please go back and review the accepted salary
commission piece that we did in November for the purpose of this budgeted year
and at the same time I'm not sure the administration understood what they're
trying to defer for two more years we already approved. So those questions are
rational that came from Vice Chair Yukimura. It was the mayor that chose not to
implement those salaries and we got confirmation in Mr. Stoessel's opinion, which
is not legal nor human resource background, that the mayor can, in fact, retain
people for less than the cap. So if there are additional questions folks, I'll be glad to
entertain them and this will be a new communication. Mr. Rapozo.
Mr. Rapozo: No, I was just going to ask if you were just going to
take that back to...
Ms. Esaki: Yes.
Mr. Rapozo: Or are you prepared to answer it?
Ms. Esaki: No, I'm not prepared to answer at this time. I need
time to go and consult with my deputy.
Mr. Rapozo:
Council Chair Furfaro:
Ms. Esaki:
Okay, thank you.
I have one question for you.
Sure.
Council Chair Furfaro: Amy, who from our county attorney's office that
represents this council will go to the next salary commission meeting and brief them
on these concerns?
Ms. Esaki: Which of our deputies?
Council Chair Furfaro: Yes.
Ms. Esaki: We have an assigned deputy to the salary
commission and as far as your concerns are...
Council Chair Furfaro: The concerns that surfaced in this meeting.
COUNCIL MEETING -31- September 7, 2011
Ms. Esaki: Yes, we can communicate to them your concerns. I
can go with Ms. Clark. But also, if I could have the minutes, the written minutes
that...
Council Chair Furfaro: I'll send over the minutes from this meeting for this
portion.
Ms. Esaki: Appreciate it.
Council Chair Furfaro: Council Vice Chair, did you have another question
for Amy?
Ms. Yukimura: No, just... so it's Ms. Clark that is the legal advisor
from the county attorney's office to the charter commission?
Ms. Esaki: That's correct.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay and your office will be preparing answers to
those legal questions.
Ms. Esaki: To your three questions, yes, we will.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay and when can we expect them to be
answered?
Ms. Esaki: Prior to the next meeting.
Ms. Yukimura: Prior to the next council meeting.
Ms. Esaki: Is that okay? Prior to the next council meeting?
Council Chair Furfaro: No, let's do it this way, please. Please everyone,
hold on. Amy, what is fair and reasonable for your office to respond to us? Give us
a date and then we will mutually agree to watch for that correspondence. Is it two
weeks?
Ms. Esaki: Two weeks.
Council Chair Furfaro: Very good, so we will look forward to hearing from
the county attorney's office by September 21, 2011.
Ms. Esaki:
Council Chair Furfaro:
more questions?
Mr. Rapozo:
Council Chair Furfaro:
Thank you.
Thank you very much
You know I do have one.
Go right ahead.
Members, are there any
Mr. Rapozo: It's a question for Amy and I think she can answer
because it's not specific to this item, but it definitely relates. The charter language
is clear. The charter language says March 15. There's no authority or provision for
amendments. This is a general legal question. It's not one that's specific to salary
commission. It's really, the charter language says March 15, on or before March 15.
COUNCIL MEETING -32- September 7, 2011
Ms. Esaki:
Mr. Rapozo:
The charter does say that.
Correct.
Ms. Esaki: However, Councilmember Yukimura's question is a
good one as far as whether the resolution can be amended even after the date, so we
would like to...
Mr. Rapozo: And where would that authority come from.
Ms. Esaki: Well, that's what we need to check on.
Mr. Rapozo: You don't know offhand?
Ms. Esaki: No, I don't know offhand.
Mr. Rapozo: So...
Council Chair Furfaro: She's already indicated that she's going to take the
two weeks...
Mr. Rapozo: Right, okay and that's fair. I don't think and that's
just my own opinion, I think when the charter says August 15...
Ms. Esaki: March 15.
Mr. Rapozo: I mean March 15, the charter says March 15, it's
there for a purpose. And if that's the case, then the salary commission can submit
amendments throughout the year and never mind about the charter. Anyway, that
was my question. You answered it. I'll have a little comment after.
Council Chair Furfaro: And it is a good question and I want to remind the
county attorneys that date is date specific for the purpose of budgeting.
Ms. Esaki: We understand.
Council Chair Furfaro: We cannot be changing the budget midyear all over
the place. It is date specific for the purpose of budget. Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: I don't want to complicate it and I'll wait for your
answer, but this resolution impacts changes in 2013, right. So I mean that just
adds a wrinkle because they're not changing what they did in 2011. They're making
changes effective 2013, right. So just put that in the mix.
Ms. Esaki: Well, that's one of the elements, yeah.
Ms. Yukimura: Mr. Chair, maybe there's another legal question
here, whether the salary commission...
Council Chair Furfaro: I'll be glad to entertain other legal questions that
we can send over rather than have this discussion now. I very clearly heard that it
will be two weeks. I also very clearly heard Mr. Bynum's request of having a new
agenda item and I do plan to do so, Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Thank you.
COUNCIL MEETING -33- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: It may not be in two weeks, but it will be a new
agenda item. For all intents and purposes, we need to take a caption break, number
one. Number two, I would like to get to C 2011 -256 after a 10- minute break because
I know we have people here for that item. So last call for councilmembers, now that
we have the county attorney. If you have additional questions, legal questions, I
will be glad to put them in a correspondence.
Mr. Kuali`i: Chair, you're saying we don't have to ask it to the
county attorney right now. We can give it to you...
Council Chair Furfaro: Yes.
Mr. Kuali`i: And you'll put it...
Council Chair Furfaro: I will have a new item on the agenda.
Mr. Kuali`i: That's what I would like to do, Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Okay, thank you Amy.
Ms. Esaki: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much. Members, we had asked for
public testimony earlier. I'd like to call the meeting to order again here and point
out that Mr. Rapozo has a motion on the table and it was seconded by Mr. Chang.
Mr. Rapozo, you can have the floor.
There being no objections, the meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as
follows:
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. I mean it sounds like we're moving to a
deferral, which I'm not going to support. I made my comments quite loudly earlier.
You know this is our council. There is a definite separation of power. This is our
table. This is our discussion. Granted I think some of those questions were good
questions. I don't think we should defer this to try to figure out a way how we can
circumvent the charter. I mean I think it's quite clear today when you hear all the
testimony, when you read the charter, it's very clear that whoever wrote this
charter and all the different provisions, they did it for specific reasons. This section
of the charter as Mr. Chair has pointed out, I believe three or four times today, is
directly tied to our budgeting process. And because we may have made a mistake,
we cannot go and try to fix the mistake by violating the charter. I want to caution
the councilmembers that and I want that on the record that if we messed up, we
messed up. We fix it by rejecting this resolution. All of the numbers are in place.
You take away all the disparity. Now it's up to the appointing authorities what
they want to pay their department heads. But don't put the accountability here and
say, well, the council passed the resolution so your pay is limited, no. With the
resolution here, I can pay you x- amount of dollars, but I don't think I'm going to pay
you that, I'm going to pay you here. Like Mr. Stoessel said, the management tool
opportunity with this is tremendous. But I want to caution the councilmembers
that we have the duty and obligation to uphold the charter and in my opinion and
it's just mine, but the March 15 deadline is clear. There is no provision in that
charter that allows for that flexibility of the date. And if you look at the resolution,
although it states a resolution to amend the prior resolution, that resolution is a
new resolution. It has a brand new resolution number; it's 2011 dash whatever it
is. So it's not bringing up an old resolution. This is a brand new resolution. And if
you look at the charter, that should have been done by March 15 unless they want
COUNCIL MEETING -34- September 7, 2011
us to consider this for the next fiscal year, in which case they're done for the year.
We don't get any more. So, I'm asking for the five votes to reject it in totality for
two reasons. Number one, it's the right thing to do in my opinion; it complies with
the charter. And number two, it sends a message back to the commission and to the
administration that hey, maybe we have to tighten up a little bit and try to keep
within the parameters and confines of the charter, which ... it's really the law.
Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Kuali`i.
Mr. Kuali`i: Mr. Chair, I thought I heard you say that you were
going to grant Councilmember Bynum's request to put a new agenda item. And I
thought I also heard Councilmember Bynum and Councilmember Yukimura not
necessarily say they were opposed to rejecting at this time. Maybe they can clarify
later. But I think Councilmember Rapozo's points are so clear and so strong and I
think that the charter is clear. But some comments made earlier about the political
process and removing it and making it easier to do these raises, I mean if we
remove the political process then we're removing the people and we can't do that
you know. So it's our job to make the tough decisions and if we get voted out of
office because of that, it's still our job to do the right thing. Now it is the way it is,
but we have to stand up and participate and speak for the people. And the way it is
now, it's incorrect and we need to fix this. And the way to fix it is to reject it and
allow them to come back. And if they're trying to make the March 15 deadline for
2012, then they have plenty of time. And one of the reasons this is flawed is
because nobody told us anything. How about working with us? Look at how clear
when the prosecutor came up and did her testimony. How about working with the
prosecutor minimally? We're not asking for a lot, just communicate with us and
work with us. In the end, we all have to work together for the people and I'll keep
saying every budget process, whatever, the salaries of our county is the biggest
expense and our biggest responsibility. So the budget is our biggest responsibility,
the salaries are our biggest responsibility because that impacts directly what our
people have to pay for. It's the people's money, not ours.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, before I speak, I'm going to ask for an
opportunity to have Mr. Isobe from boards and commissions come up because I have
some particulars. So I'm going to suspend the rules and ask Mr. Isobe to come up.
There being no objection, the rules were suspended.
JOHN ISOBE, Executive Assistant to the Mayor: Good morning,
Councilmembers, for the record my name is John Isobe. I'm the administrator for
the office of boards and commissions.
Council Chair Furfaro: John, I do want to say I'm leaning towards a
rejection here of this piece and I'll tell you why. There were a lot of comments made
today, but the reality is we approved in November something that was prepped for
this upcoming budget. It was the mayor and his staff who chose not to implement
some of those recommendations. That is his prerogative as the chief operating
officer of the corporation called the County of Kauai. Now this salary
recommendation, whether it's now September for next March or whatever, it seems
to be looking towards the council as doing a reversal on what actions we took in
November. The mayor, as clearly discussed and dialogued here, has the authority
based on his recommendations to pay under the cap. That is solely his kuleana.
That's his piece. Now it doesn't include himself. I don't know how he takes a
position, but he waived an $8,000.00 raise that was previously approved as it
showed up in this July's budget. But I'm having a difficult time without expressing
COUNCIL MEETING -35- September 7, 2011
myself to the salary commission in their next meeting some of the points of view
from this body because we need to remain independent from the process, but we
need to have a better understanding of the pieces. So therefore, to me, this may be
a new discussion item for this body and I wanted to say that it's very gracious of
the mayor not to take the salary raise that was authorized, but that's his authority.
When handling and recruiting and maintaining a competent staff, those are his
decisions. Do you have anything to add to that?
Mr. Isobe: I'd just like to add some points of clarification for
some of the comments that were made this morning, and I'm not trying to
complicate the issue. And I think the questions and dialogue are well intended and
in fact I will take this back to the salary commission.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you.
Mr.Isobe: First and foremost in terms of looking at the
salaries and looking at the various positions, the salary commission previously did,
in fact, do that. We have a binder in our office of all of the different positions, titles,
requirements of the positions when the salary resolution was first implemented. So
the commission has, in fact, taken that information into consideration and I do not
believe that these salaries are arbitrary and capricious that are listed here this
morning.
The second point is that the salary resolution that was originally adopted
back in November, as I heard, had one provision in it that, I guess and I'm not real
sure myself whether or not it's an error or not an error, but that provision which is
in Section 2 that has been amended or proposed to be amended under this
resolution gave both the council and the mayor the authority to not implement the
salaries based on the budget. That particular provision called into question
whether or not the commission erred in its findings and allowed the council and/or
mayor to do that because the charter requires that the salary commission set the
salaries of all elected and appointed officers.
Relative to the March 15 date, the reason why the commission, in fact, put
that provision initially in there is because of this unique economic times that we are
in. The commission felt a little uncomfortable about setting salaries for the new
fiscal year, this current fiscal year that we are in without understanding all of the
revenue and cost implications when in fact had they not put that provision in, as
Mr. Stoessel had mentioned, this body would have been required to in fact in the
budget budget for these positions at the salaries that were established. And that
was not done because of this provision in the resolution. To correct that potential
inequity or flaw is why the salary commission is now proposing that the salaries be
delayed out to 2013. At the time the decision was made, the county and the county
still is along with the rest of the employers in some instances still negotiating
collective bargaining agreements with the unions. Back when the resolution was
sent to you, none of the bargaining units had settled and they were in fact in
negotiations. So the commission in its wisdom, which I believe at that time was a
sound decision, said that given what the budget comes out in the end, that the
council and/or the administration collectively would have the opportunity then to
look at what the collective bargaining decisions were made, look at the budget
implications and ultimately decide budgetarily if the county could afford these
raises. If this body chooses to reject the resolution, that is the decision of this body.
Sending it back to the commission is fine, but nonetheless, the resolution that was
originally adopted then stands and in fact the budget would need to get amended.
Whether or not those raises go into effect or not is a totally separate issue.
COUNCIL MEETING -36- September 7, 2011
The last piece that I just wanted to clarify and this was a comment that was
made that the salary commission chose not to in fact solicit input and to not inform
certain individuals and/or this body about their deliberations. I have an email that
I had sent on July 26 when this resolution was first being considered by the salary
commission on behalf of the salary commission. And just in short it says that the
salary commission invites and welcomes input from the mayor, all members of the
county council are addressed, the prosecuting attorney, as well as the county clerk,
deputy county clerk, county auditor. All of these people have been asked by the
salary commission to provide input and if you'd like a copy of that email I have it
with me. That's all I have to say. Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Isobe, Mr. Bynum has a question for you.
Mr. Bynum: That email was sent to all of those people?
Mr. Isobe: Correct.
Mr. Bynum: And was it an oversight to not send a copy of this
resolution to the auditor and the prosecutor? I'm glad that you sent that email, but
it would seem appropriate that this resolution be copied to those people as well.
Mr. Isobe: Well, the reason and again, if there was an
oversight, I take full responsibility for that, but the reason it wasn't copied to the
prosecutor and the auditor is because their salaries as it's being proposed in this
particular resolution is not being impacted. The only salaries being impacted
currently are the salaries for the administrative department heads and the mayor.
Mr. Bynum: Okay, and so I... if you can speak on the
commission's behalf, I'm not clear what they're trying to accomplish by sending this.
Is it to modify what happened for 2011 because the date changes to 2013.
Mr. Isobe:
Correct.
Mr. Bynum: Right, so I don't know that ... that's my question.
Councilmember Rapozo says this violates the charter because it didn't come by
March 15. But it's not for 2011, it's for 2013. Is that correct?
Mr. Isobe: The resolution that ... this particular resolution,
Resolution 2011 -1, which is the one that is currently being considered, the intent of
the resolution is to defer the administrative salaries out to 2013, which Resolution
2010 -1, which is the one that got adopted, actually effectuates those salaries
effective July 1. So what it in essence attempts to do is defer the salary raises for
the administrative department heads and the mayor out to July 1, 2013, which then
would be synonymous or in line with when the current collective bargaining
agreements expire. I mean that was the intention is to delay those raises so it
mirrors what was at least agreed upon with HGEA.
Mr. Bynum: In essence though, for everyone other than the
mayor, that can just happen because it's a cap. Was part of the motivation to
address the issue of the mayor's salary.
Mr. Isobe: The mayor as well as all of the administrative
departments... and there is some ... the mayor, as was stated earlier in the
conversation, the mayor has appointing authority over certain department heads,
but not all of them. As all of you know, certain appointing authorities rest with
commissions. And so this was to alleviate having to go to each and every
COUNCIL MEETING -37- September 7, 2011
commission to make the request individually and in fact to just say all of the
administrative... in other words, what it would do, in essence, is keep everything
status quo so it doesn't impact the salaries of the county council, the clerk, the
prosecutor nor the current salaries of the administrative department heads. That
was the intent. Now, whether that has created additional confusion, obviously it
has.
Mr. Bynum:
Thank you, Mr. Isobe.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Rapozo, then Mr. Chang.
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you, John, you said that the reason this copy
of the resolution didn't go to the county clerk and the auditor and the prosecutor
was because their salaries weren't going to be affected by the resolution. Is that
what you said?
Mr. Isobe:
Correct.
Mr. Rapozo: But everybody else's salaries would be affected, fire
chief, police chief, all of these other department heads would be affected.
Mr. Isobe: That is correct.
Mr. Rapozo: But they weren't sent it either.
Mr. Isobe: At this point, right, correct.
Mr. Rapozo: And then your communications director, Beth
Tokioka, her salary is not going to be affected by this.
Mr. Isobe: Correct.
Mr. Rapozo: But she was sent a resolution. Why was that?
Mr. Isobe: Well, again, what the key people that we felt that
should be informed, obviously, is this body because it was transmitted to this body.
The other is the managing director, the personnel director, the county attorney
because they were involved as part of the review process. And at such time that in
fact this body, if this body chose to accept the resolution and/or reject, then we
would then inform the remaining departments.
Mr. Rapozo: Yeah, but you... my question was you have a
communications director that's been addressed the resolution, which she's not
affected by at all.
Mr. Isobe: Right, but that...
Mr. Rapozo: And yet you have several department heads, you
have the county clerk, the auditor, you have the prosecuting attorney who's directly
involved in this resolution because they have an entire section dedicated to them,
but they weren't notified. I guess that's the question.
Mr. Isobe: But again, the communications director was
informed because the assumption is the internal communications then would go out
to the respective departments at the appropriate time.
COUNCIL MEETING -38- September 7, 2011
Mr. Rapozo: That's fair, but I guess you still haven't answered
the question. Why wouldn't the departments that are being affected by this
resolution, aside from an email saying that the salary commission is going to be
meeting and solicits anybody's input with no ... because I got that email as well, but
it had no specification or specified language as to what was going to be discussed. It
didn't discuss the resolution and the fact that this was what was trying to be
accomplished. There was no reference to the fact that there was going to be an
attempt to freeze raises. Why wasn't the resolution, as it was drafted, forwarded
to...
Mr. Isobe: The resolution was attached.
Mr. Rapozo: The resolution was attached to that email back in
August?
Mr. Isobe: Correct, in July.
Mr. Rapozo: In July, it was attached?
Mr. Isobe: Correct.
Mr. Rapozo: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Isobe, we're encroaching on a (inaudible) where
we have to take a caption break. I want to thank you for coming up and also I do
want to point out to all councilmembers and before I give the short -term to
Mr. Chang, the floor, the previous resolution that we did approve on November 3,
2010, "the mayor with the approval of the county council is hereby authorized
through the county's annual operating budget to limit the funding and thereby
reduce salaries of non - elected officers or employees to amounts lower than the
figures established by the position in the resolution." Okay? And everybody, if you
don't have a copy of this, please it's November 3's communication with the clerk and
therefore, my only problem in voting to reject this is the fact that we already
approved these numbers for the year; we're leaving the mayor with the authority.
Now having us push it back, it's like the burden is on us. That was the original
recommendation. So I want to thank you for your comments this afternoon and I
wanted to bring this section to the attention of all the members. Mr.. Chang has one
question for Mr. Isobe and we need to go on a caption break.
Mr. Chang: Thank you. Actually, Councilmember Rapozo
asked the same question I was going to ask, but can we get a copy of that email?
Mr. Isobe: Sure.
Mr. Chang: July 26, thank you. That was my question, thank
you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much, Mr. Isobe, and we need to
move on to the vote. You have a question for Mr. Isobe?
Mr. Kuali`i: I just wanted to state that so the email was on
July 26, 2011 and then the resolution was approved by the salary commission on
August 5, 2011, like within a week. My only thing was for something this
important, shouldn't we be entitled to something more than an email saying that we
have to show up at a commission meeting? We are so busy. I would love to be at
every commission meeting, but I cannot. But I so want to be notified of a draft
COUNCIL MEETING -39- September 7, 2011
proposal if possible of what you're trying to do so at least..:I know it's your
authority, the commission makes all those decisions and we're just supposed to be
forwarded this. But if it comes to me now in a time - sensitive deadline, with
60 days, and it's not even providing all the information I need, then ... you know it
would have been helpful to get something in writing like you did when you
submitted the actual, after the vote on August 5 as a proposed—this is what we're
submitting to you in this format with this information. Then easily I could have
known that I needed more information so that today the decision could already be
made. There's a lot of talk now about different outstanding questions and legal
questions and how we need to defer and need more time, yet we have this deadline,
and if we don't act on this deadline, it automatically goes into effect. So would it be
possible to do more than an email. I mean an email is nice, but it's so easy with all
the emails that we get for it to get buried and from the administration, I think we're
entitled to something...
Mr.Isobe: Well again, I 'apologize for the method of
communication. All I'm pointing out is that we did make an effort and maybe
improperly but did make an effort to in fact communicate. And if in the future you
would like a communication, I'm happy to do it in the form of a written
communication or letter to the council.
Mr. Kuali`i: I would appreciate that on behalf of the people
because the effort was minimal.
Council Chair Furfaro: We're running beyond our caption break time.
Mr. Isobe, thank you very much for coming up, and members, we're back in order
here.
There being no further questions, the meeting was called back to order, and
proceeded as follows:
Council Chair Furfaro: I would like to find us voting here on an item. We
have a motion to reject and a second. Folks, we are way over our time. We are
going to put a new item on the agenda within the next 30 -45 days.
Ms. Yukimura: Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Yes.
Ms. Yukimura: The rejection, though, it's basically saying that
we ... it's going to just totally foreclose the option to modify or sustain this deferral of
executive pay raises. We won't be able to do it if we reject it today and I would
rather take the 60 days to really do our due diligence because otherwise if this
resolution is legal, and I don't know yet whether it is, but we were going to ask the
question and we're going to get an answer within the 60 days, then we may be able
to temper the executive pay raises at a time when rank and file employees are
taking cuts.
Council Chair Furfaro: I understand your point, but regardless of the
outcome of this, nothing can be implemented until next year period.
Ms. Yukimura: That's a legal conclusion that's not yet made.
COUNCIL MEETING -40- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: Well, let's all have our own choice of a vote here. I
have shared with you that the resolution we passed from November is in existence
and the mayor has chosen the departments that he has oversight to not increase
those salaries based on what he presented to us in the budget.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Now let's get to a point that we understand my
next step as chair. I plan to put further discussion on this for the entire body and
we have some questions being responded to sometime around September 21 from
the county attorney's office.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes, Mr. Chair, but this resolution if we reject it
today that's the final action on the resolution. So...
Council Chair Furfaro: And there's nothing that prevents them to put in a
new resolution after we've been able to sort through our questions. That's why I've
asked the county attorney's office if they are going to make a presentation to the
commission to raise the concerns that came up today and I think the answer I got is
they were going to do that.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay, so may I just make a statement about my
vote?
Council Chair Furfaro: Go ahead.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay, I feel that Councilmember Rapozo has a good
point, that it may be that this resolution is illegal. But by deferring today or not
voting to reject today is not violating the charter. It's actually allowing us to do our
due diligence because this resolution here defers executive pay raises, which is
something I think is appropriate to do at a time when our rank and file is having to
take pay cuts. And if the resolution is legal, then we should do everything we can
and we can still modify. Actually the political process is allowed here. We can
reject the year 2013 column if we want to. We can reject the amendments in
Section 2 if we want to. If we can take the time to find out whether this resolution
is legal and we can sustain the deferral of executive salaries. So I think we should
take the time to find out what the legal situation is. If this resolution is illegal, we
still have a chance to reject it on the 21st.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, I'm getting high signs from the media.
Mr. Rapozo: I'm calling for the question.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. We are calling for the question that's
on and I do want to make a statement that I too think this is so confusing since we
just passed something nine months ago and the mayor has implemented those
items in his decision not to advance those increases. The motion has been seconded
and is this a voice vote?
Mr. Nakamura: Yes, Mr. Chair, the motion is to reject the salary
commission's resolution.
Mr. Rapozo: I would ask for roll call, Mr. Chair, if you don't
mind.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Mr. Rapozo has asked for a roll call.
COUNCIL MEETING -41- September 7, 2011
Mr. Nakamura: The motion is to reject the salary commission's
recommendation contained in communication...
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, before we go any further, captioner we're
going to take a break and I want to make sure we understand. I have allowed every
councilmember to speak more times than they are allowed to in the rules and yet
I'm getting hands coming up and faces being made. We're on a recess and we will
come back to this item.
There being no objection, the meeting was recessed at 11:52 a.m.
The meeting was called back to order at 12:04 p.m., and proceeded as follows:
Council Chair Furfaro: We're back from recess. Mr. Bynum, you wanted
the floor? You had your hand up?
Mr. Bynum: I'm just torn about whether a deferral is
appropriate or a rejection. I would tend to reject. But just because I don't... not
because ... I don't have an answer to the question about whether it's illegal or not.
But I do know that I don't think we should be communicating to anyone that we
intend to give raises even in 2013 when we are uncertain of what the economic
situation will be and at the same time when our own employees are having a
reduction in their take home pay and we have unresolved... and I believe HGEA and
UPW employees have not had a raise for four years and now they're having
reductions and we're putting forward... so for those reasons, I probably will, if we're
going to call for this question, will vote to reject it, although I do agree with
Councilmember Yukimura at the same time that we have a lot of unanswered
questions and it could be that... so, it's a confusing situation. I appreciate the Chair
saying that we are going to have another posting and we're going to continue after
we get these legal questions answered and move forward. So thank you, Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Does anybody else want to speak on this item?
Members, going once, going twice. Okay, I will refer the time to myself and I hope
you can appreciate that I brought up the subject matter that we approved
something on November 3 submitted to us by the charter commission. That is what
we're dealing with.
Ms. Yukimura: Salary commission.
Council Chair Furfaro: I'm sorry, salary commission in compliance with
the charter. But as we want to talk about in compliance with the charter, let me
send this message to Mr. Isobe and the administration. If we get a recommendation
for the caps on the salaries from the salary commission, going forward regardless of
what the mayor submits to us, the budget should reflect the recommendations of the
salary commission period. They need to be budgeted for. The further complication
on that is if the mayor then decides to reduce certain performance amounts given
through his leadership and management of his department heads, that only adds to
the surplus when he doesn't get ... that falls right to the bottom line as money
budgeted for but becomes part of the surplus. So it's a very, very delicate process
and through the budget we heard from the mayor his desire not to implement the
salaries that the commission recommended. And maybe we were equally guilty that
we didn't budget those amounts. But in this time of economic now through, we
wanted to keep it as tight as we possibly could.
COUNCIL MEETING -42- September 7, 2011
I also want to make sure that I appreciate Mr. Isobe's comments, but you
know I've been in management for a very, very long time and all of those issues that
the commission looked at with our bargaining unit employees are factual. It was
reiterated by Mr. Bynum. It's kind of tough to be demonstrating increases when the
bargaining unit may go without. But I would remind you that we negotiated a
separate amendment for our HGEA members. The mayor took a lead on that and
we do believe that although we only have one vote of the eight at the bargaining
table, the reality is our compassion is for our employees as well.
I also want to say though, the salary commission's responsibility is not to
confuse those issues. Their responsibility is not to get involved with the bargaining
unit process. That's left to our human resource department and our personnel
services at the negotiating team. Their responsibility is to review the compensation
packages, comparing them to other salary grades, whether it's across the state or
with other counties. That is their kuleana.
So I have said we will have something back on the agenda to further discuss
this, but anything that we implement now still has to follow the charter which has
to be submitted to us on or before March 15, which now is next year.
Now on that note, I'd like to have roll call vote and I'm sorry to some of you
members, it is my discretion, we have rules and the rules are interpreted to be
enforced at the discretion of the chair and I give other leeway at the appropriate
time. This is a serious item, but we will have a new item on the agenda soon. May
we take a roll call vote, Mr. Clerk.
The motion to reject in totality the Salary Commission's Resolution
No. 2011 -1, attached to communication C 2011 -249, was then put, and carried by
the following vote:
FOR REJECTION: Bynum, Chang, Kuali`i, Nakamura, Rapozo, TOTAL — 6,
Furfaro
AGAINST REJECTION: Yukimura TOTAL —1,
EXCUSED & NOT VOTING: None TOTAL — 0.
Mr. Nakamura: Six ayes, one no, Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much, Mr. Clerk. Mr. Clerk, I do
want to make an exception now on our calendar for today. We have several people
that want to testify on item C 2011 -256. May we read that item.
There being no objection, Communication C 2011 -256 was taken out of order.
Mr. Nakamura: We're on page 3 of the council's agenda, Mr. Chair,
on communication C 2011 -256.
C 2011 -256 Communication (08/26/2011) from Councilmember Yukimura,
requesting Council approval, to include in the 2012 Hawaii State Association of
Counties Legislative Package, a proposal to amend Chapter 196, Hawaii Revised
Statutes (HRS), relating to Energy Resources, which requires solar water heating
for all new single- family and duplex construction.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you.
Ms. Yukimura: Mr. Chair, may I first explain this?
COUNCIL MEETING -43- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: Yes, I will give you the floor, although we don't
have a motion. Maybe I should get a motion?
Ms. Yukimura: I can make a motion, yes. I move that the council
endorse this legislation that's being proposed to close the loophole in the existing
state law requiring solar water heaters on new single family construction and
request that the HSAC support it and include it in their package.
Mr. Bynum:
Second.
Ms. Yukimura moved to approve C 2011 -256, that the council endorse this
legislation that's being proposed to close the loophole in the existing state law
requiring solar water heaters on new single family construction and request that
the HSAC support it and include it in their package, seconded by Mr. Bynum.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, on that note I will give you the floor before I
call up public testimony.
Ms. Yukimura: Thank you, Mr. Chair. In 2004 the legislature
passed landmark legislation requiring that all new construction of single family
homes have solar water heaters for heating of hot water. They, however, allowed
four classifications of variances, and now we have a track record of how that law
has been working over the last six years. And we're finding that on Kauai and on
the Big Island 50 percent of the new construction is getting variances which allow
them to not install solar water heaters. Actually this is equivalent to 5,000 tons of
green house gases a year and over 15 years, the life of a solar water heater,
18,700 tons of carbon into the atmosphere. I haven't calculated the amount of oil
that is being used instead of sun power, but the whole purpose of this law was to
direct new construction to install solar water heaters which cut fossil fuel use,
reduce the amount of carbon that's going into the atmosphere, and this year we
have seen what global warming is doing in terms of the kinds of storms and flooding
and earthquakes that are being caused around the country and the cost thereof,
which is to me evidence of global warming.
In the picture of energy in Hawaii where we are 90 percent dependent on
fossil fuels and we are looking for ways to reduce our fossil fuel usage, solar water
heating of single family homes is the low hanging fruit. It is the easiest, fastest,
cheapest way to get off of fossil fuels and it has a tremendous benefit to the
households that live in these homes because hot water heating is about 30 percent
of a household budget. So after the payback time of five to seven years, it allows
households essentially to have free hot water. And so the legislature in its wisdom
decided to make this requirement and we follow it in our county policy. We require
it on all of our affordable housing projects. But now it's an across the state
requirement and it's saving a tremendous amount of money. It's moving us off of
fossil fuels, but there's this big loophole that's allowing 50 percent in two counties to
not put solar water heating on. It's also the best time to put solar water heating on,
at the time of construction, because you can plan it into your construction and you
can include it in the mortgage, which allows you to amortize the costs over the
period of the mortgage. So there are many, many benefits. It is also useful to
renters because landlords don't experience the savings and don't have the incentive
to put solar water heating on, but if it's a requirement, it's a benefit to both the
renter and ... it actually increases the value of the property. So it's a plus to the
landlord as well. But incentives didn't work and so this law was put into effect. But
there is a loophole and it is being used and as you know I chair the committee on
housing /transportation and energy conservation and efficiency. This is a major
energy conservation matter. So you'll see supporting testimony from Apollo Kauai
COUNCIL MEETING -44- September 7, 2011
and I believe from Stephen or Sharry Glass or both are going to be testifying today.
And there's also supporting testimony from the Department of Business and
Economic Development and Tourism, which is the office that has to administer
these variances. So they're seeing firsthand the impacts of it. And they're
supporting it as well.
I think this is a very good and important bill. It will help a good law be even
better and to tell you the truth, after we address the issue of new construction,
there's also the issue of retrofit on existing construction. But taking one step at a
time, the focus has been on new construction and I think that's where we want to
ensure a very successful law and then begin to work on incentives or other ways of
retrofitting our homes so that our families can save money and find a way to get off
of fossil fuels.
Council Chair Furfaro: Councilwoman, I don't want to sound catty on this,
but please, you said global warming as it's testimony too, but I've never made the
connection between global warming and earthquakes.
Ms. Yukimura: Actually...
Council Chair Furfaro: I mean I've heard of the solar effects on the icecaps
melting, but you said...
Ms. Yukimura: That's true, actually when I was saying it I realized
the connection is more tenuous, but I bet the geologists could tell us about the
connections because it affects the oceans, the currents, the movement of earth
surfaces, and we are learning more and more the fundamental rule of ecology that
everything's connected to everything else. But I think you're right that I probably
should have limited my testimony to floods and storms.
Council Chair Furfaro: Just in fairness.
Ms. Yukimura: And snowfall.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay.
Ms. Yukimura: I'm glad you're listening so carefully, Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: You know, I really try to do that. Okay, we have a
motion and a second. I'm going to suspend the rules and see if there's... and I know
there's a couple here that would like to address with testimony this piece. Please
come right up.
There being no objection, the rules were suspended.
STEPHEN GLASS, Apollo Kauai: (Inaudible) read a brief statement on
behalf of Apollo Kauai. Apollo Kauai is a group that's been here for seven or eight
years now and we're mainly concerned with renewable energy and promoting
conservation and efficiency with energy and so here's our statement. Apollo Kauai
is fully supportive of the proposed amendment to the state solar water heating
Act 204. We were pleased when the act was passed but disappointed that it
contained variances which allowed people to opt out of solar in favor of gas water
heating systems. At the time the act was passed, electrical backup for solar was
available, but the gas backup equivalent did not exist yet. Now that gas backup to
solar is available on the market and that means the solar tanks include a gas
element, you can get that type of a tank or with an electric element in it.
COUNCIL MEETING -45- September 7, 2011
Since January of this year about half of the permit applications for new
residential construction on Kauai have received variances from installing solar
thermal systems. In 97 percent of these cases, they have chosen gas (not solar) hot
water heating systems, which are initially less costly, but are much more costly
financially and environmentally over the life of the units. With a life expectancy of
15 years, the solar with electric backup payback period is estimated to be from five
to seven years with free heating of water for the remaining eight to ten years. In
the lifecycle cost comparison and carbon emissions analysis, solar systems with
electric or gas backup are by far the best choices for Kauai residents.
These solar water heating systems are the very best first step for all our
residents and some businesses to save on their electricity bills; reducing overall
demand and our island's carbon footprint by burning less fossil fuel for electricity.
The purpose of the amendment is to make sure that other than the rare
individual circumstances where solar is just not a viable choice, such as in the case
of so little sunlight that it would require purchasing more panels than would be
financially reasonable, that all new residential homes would be fitted with efficient
solar thermal systems. Ultimately, this will benefit all of us, our home and
business owners, our electrical coop, our island and our planet. That's that.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Let me see if we have any question
from any of the members for you. Mr. Chang.
Mr. Chang: Thank you, Chairman. Steve, thank you for
testifying. I had a question. Vice Chair Yukimura was mentioning that the solar is
the easiest, fastest and cheapest way. Can you tell us if you know what a typical
heating system would cost, what it would run?
Mr. Glass: The solar heating systems?
Mr. Chang: Yes.
Mr. Glass: Generally I think they're running between $5,000
to $7,000 that would accommodate a family of four.
Mr. Chang:
Mr. Glass:
Mr. Chang:
Mr. Rapozo:
Council Chair Furfaro
Accommodate a family of four?
Mm -hm.
Okay, thank you.
Just one question, Mr. Chair.
Go right ahead, Mr. Rapozo.
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you for your testimony. I just had a
question and it was regarding the statistic that half of the current applications for
residential construction on Kauai have received variances. Where was that
information from?
Mr. Glass: It came from the DBEDT.
Mr. Rapozo: DBEDT.
COUNCIL MEETING -46- September 7, 2011
Mr. Glass: Oddly enough, the variance percentages on Oahu
were like 5 or 6 percent. You know the Big Island is something like that also. Maui
and this island have been getting this high rate of variances.
Ms. Yukimura: It's actually the Big Island and Kauai.
Council Chair Furfaro: He did say Hawaii Island
Mr. Glass: Oh, excuse me, yeah, the Big Island and Kauai
have been getting the high rates of variances, yeah.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Rapozo, you still have the floor.
Mr. Rapozo: Yeah, I'm trying to get a number on. and I don't
know if you have this number, what percentage of new homes ... I know in testimony
from the gas company, the written testimony, they're saying 75 percent of new
homes now use solar water heaters. I'm curious what that number would be for
Kauai. Do you know offhand?
Mr. Glass: The number of homes? The actual number...
Mr. Rapozo: The percentage of new homes being constructed
that have solar versus another...
Mr. Glass: Well, according to those figures, apparently half of
them are not putting solar on.
Mr. Rapozo: Well, it's half are applying for the... half of the
permit applications are receiving variances. So your testimony is that 50 percent of
the new homes constructed on Kauai has solar...
Ms. Yukimura: Can I clarify that?
Mr. Rapozo: Why, I don't know. I'm asking him. I mean if he
can answer, that's fine. If not...
Mr. Glass: Well, that's the way I understand it.
Mr. Rapozo: But that's from DBEDT. Your information is
coming from DBEDT, right.
Mr. Glass:
Yeah.
Ms. Yukimura: If I can clarify that, statewide I think 75 percent of
the homes...
Mr. Rapozo: That's what's on the written testimony.
Ms. Yukimura: But Kauai 50% of the homes. That's the difference.
One is 50 percent of an island, the other is 75. So statewide 25 percent of the new
construction is getting variances because the percentage of variances are lower on
Oahu and Maui.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Mr. Rapozo, you still have the floor.
Mr. Rapozo: No, I'm done, thank you.
COUNCIL MEETING -47- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, any other members? Councilwoman
Nakamura.
Ms. Nakamura: Thank you for your testimony. I have one question
about your comment about the environmental cost over the life of the unit between
gas and solar. Do you have any data that shows what that cost is of the lifecycle
cost comparison and the carbon emissions analysis?
Mr. Glass: We have all that. Apollo Kauai has it. I don't have
it with me today. Yes, we have that.
Ms. Nakamura: I would be interested in seeing what those costs
are.
Mr. Glass: Okay, we have a lifecycle cost comparison chart
between all the different methods of water heating and it gives the cost to you and it
gives the carbon footprint and so on, carbon emissions, yeah.
Ms. Nakamura: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, any more questions for Steve? Steve, thank
you very much for your testimony. I'm going to ask you a question. The piece that's
in front of us is a suggested action that this council body take and send over to the
Hawaii State Association of Counties (HSAC). The other particular piece is we
could maybe, because this involves the state and other federal pieces and getting
clear data, perhaps we should refer this to the intergovernmental relations
committee for further discussion and getting some of this data that Councilwoman
Nakamura... how difficult is it for Apollo Kauai if we refer this to committee to
collect some of this data for us?
Mr. Glass: Well, we can give you the data that we have. I
don't know about the committee itself.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, so it's a fair and reasonable request if we put
this off in committee before we move forward on passing it on to HSAC.
Councilmember Kuali`i has a question.
Mr. Kuali`i: Aloha and mahalo for being here. I'm just
wondering if you might not have a thought from Apollo Kauai on the ever changing
and evolving options that are coming forward for alternative energy. I think all of
our people want to be sustainable, but they should always have options. For one
thing I think with the solar water heater, so you move forward with a solar water
heater and then maybe five years down the line photovoltaic becomes more
affordable and then you want to go that route. So now you have photovoltaic and
you're providing all the electricity for your own house but more than you really use.
So if you had a heater that was electric and your photovoltaic now provided that
electricity, wouldn't that still... no?
Mr. Glass: No. The first thing you want to do is get away from
heating water electrically, if you can, because it's way more expensive and carbon
costly to do it through PV. The thing to do really for individuals is to try and get all
your electric usage down as much as possible before installing a PV system. We've
done that at our house. So the first thing electric water heater, try and turn that
over to solar and perhaps get rid of your gas...
COUNCIL MEETING -48- September 7, 2011
Mr. Kuali`i: You know to me the argument of if you're using
electricity and KIUC is burning oil, that goes away if you have photovoltaic and
you're creating your own electricity from the sun, right? So if you're heating your
water with electricity in your house that you create with the sun, photovoltaic, isn't
that still green and sustainable?
Mr. Glass: Yeah, it's a good idea, but it's very inefficient
compared to doing it with a solar water heating panel. You'd have to probably triple
the size of your PV installation to accomplish that.
Mr. Kuali`i: And then the only other thing is so should this one
technology be 100 percent in all our homes or are there other acceptable green
alternative technologies to Apollo that our citizens should have a choice to use. And
if it was less expensive, shouldn't they have that choice? (Inaudible) things are
being developed, right.
Mr. Glass: For heating water, we're talking specifically?
Mr. Kuali`i: Yeah.
Mr. Glass: Right now, solar is the best way to go about it. A
tankless gas water heater is possibly the next way, but you still have a much higher
carbon footprint.
Mr. Kuali`i: But you would agree that things, you said right
now, but things are changing and there may be more options.
Mr. Glass: If there's some other way that comes along, but at
the moment to heat hot water, doing it with solar panels is by far the most efficient
thing to do. PV is great too. We advocate for that, but that comes later. As JoAnn
said, solar water is the low hanging fruit.
Mr. Kuali`i: Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Are there any more questions?
Ms. Yukimura: Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Vice Chair Yukimura, go right ahead.
Ms. Yukimura: I believe Mrs. Glass wants to say a few words, if
she could.
Council Chair Furfaro: Fine.
Ms. Yukimura: Can you introduce yourself, please?
Council Chair Furfaro: Ms. Glass, you just have to...
SHARRY GLASS: Sharry Glass. I am also a member of Apollo Kauai.
We have solar on our home and we have had for the last 24 years and PV and I
think what I want to express is to share that this is what Apollo has learned over
the last eight years. Solar hot water, we are blessed with sunlight here. There are
countries all over the world that have more solar hot water systems on their roofs
than we do and they don't have the solar resources that we have. Yes, there are
new technologies, perhaps hydrogen in the future. Perhaps there are different
COUNCIL MEETING -49- September 7, 2011
kinds of heating systems. But solar will be for the future that we can see, will be
the answer for heating water. It's the least expensive, least technical system. It's
the simplest mechanically. It is affordable.
For new construction it can be included in your mortgage. You get a 30
percent federal tax credit. For what we're really wishing is that all households, that
all small businesses, restaurants that use a lot of hot water, anyone who uses hot
water would have the access to solar heating because this is what's going to reduce
our need for burning fossil fuels here on Kauai.
So yes, there may be new technologies, but PV is so much more expensive. It
will be so much more expensive for the foreseeable future. Solar hot water is simply
pipes, glass box —it's very simple —and a tank.
Council Chair Furfaro: Any questions?
Mr. Kuali`i: Just one quick one.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Kuali`i.
Mr. Kuali`i: Aloha and mahalo for being here, Sharry.
Ms. Glass: Hi.
Mr. Kuali`i: Just one quick question. There could be a balance
between the fact that like KIUC is moving away from oil and creating more
alternative energies, right? So as KIUC provides more electricity from alternative
sources, I think there's talk even about a solar farm. So there's so much happening
now, so why not just make sure we have the options available to our citizens and
not necessarily lock them all into one thing and by doing that eliminate other
markets and possibilities from other alternative sources. And also, we all should be
working on it together, right, solar, hydro. And solar again is not just hot water
heaters on every house but also photovoltaic and if photovoltaic is bringing
electricity to the homes, then that's again an alternative, a good solution.
Ms. Glass: I think KIUC is planning on what is called
distributed energy system. We've had this centralized system and on the mainland
it works because the grid is so huge that you can incorporate all sorts of clean
energy alternatives like wind and solar. easily. But we're a very small grid and
we're in the middle of the ocean. We're being told by the rest of our state that we're
going to have to be energy independent, that our channel is too deep to have a cable
to be even part of our state grid. So we're on our own here and that means that all
of us, as you say, have to participate, and we're going to have a distributed system
where each home, each business will provide as much of their energy as is possible
and then KIUC will provide the transmission system and the additional that we
need. But unless we all participate in this, KIUC can't do it alone.
Mr. Glass: Let me clarify. We're not just saying solar hot
water is the only thing. Apollo Kauai advocates for all types of renewable energy:
wind, whatever we can get, hydro if it's viable. It's just that we're specifically
addressing this loophole in this state bill right here and that refers to solar hot
water on new construction.
COUNCIL MEETING -50- September 7, 2011
Ms. Glass: And that is that solar doesn't have to be with
electrical backup. There is now available gas backup for solar. So all solar systems,
if it's a good, if it's well sized, and it's oriented properly, it should be 90 percent
efficient, which means 10 percent of the time you'll be using either electrical or gas
backup. So you are providing people with options.
Mr. Kuali`i: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Yes. And Mr. Rapozo has a question.
Mr. Rapozo: One question and it's really, so as far as Apollo
Kauai is concerned what goal, what number, what's the target of new construction
homes is Apollo Kauai interested? Is it 100 percent? You want 100 percent?
Mr. Glass: I can see that.
Ms. Glass: There are going to be those rare cases. On Kauai
we're so fortunate because there are very few places where there isn't enough
sunlight to really put in an efficient system if it's sized properly, but there are going
to be a few. There are going to be a few situations where it is inappropriate.
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: You know, we're at a point that we probably need
to break for lunch and I'm going to give the group a few more opportunities to
question your testimony in the effect that you don't come back after lunch because
after lunch we have a public hearing and then at the request of the administration,
we have a Lydgate Park issue that we have to grab the director of parks &
recreation for testimony because he's at a public hearing this evening. So I'm going
to ask the members if they have any more questions for you, but then we're going to
break for lunch. I understand there are others that want to give testimony, but at
the same time we have a clock that's saying we're almost 20 minutes to one and we
have a posting for a public hearing for 1:30 p.m. or thereabouts. So that's the
nature of our business. We took three hours this morning on the salary issue, so let
us continue to get some questions posed to you folks. Any more questions? I will
pose one question. If there is a recommendation to refer this to an
intergovernmental relations committee, will we be able to have an opportunity to
hear more testimony because obviously I'll be very honest with you, my question
here on this is this is a communication to go to HSAC of which we have one vote.
But I certainly think we want to find ourselves being able to get all of the right data
for this because you're asking us to eliminate people's choices and I think that's
something that if we're going to do that, we need to have as much facts as we can
and I hope you understand I'm not one way or the other. My bigger concern at this
point is taking away people's choices. That's the part I have with this bill. So do we
have more testimony for these individuals at the moment? Mr. Chang?
Mr. Chang: No, I just wanted to clarify. When the chairman
said HSAC, that stands for Hawaii State Association of Counties.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, do we have ... I hope the audience
understands that we need to mandate a time here that we break for lunch and give
our people the right, but Steve, right? Steve, would you be open to a referral to the
intergovernmental relations committee to continue this dialogue?
Mr. Glass: Sure, yeah, (inaudible) we can do.
COUNCIL MEETING -51- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro:
Okay and may I ask your lovely wife?
Ms. Glass: One more comment and that is that I hope that all
of you will think seriously about our energy situation because you deal with very
important problems in the community and concerns and issues. But the sea is
rising as we speak. In another 30 years it's going to have risen at least a foot and a
half. Kapa`a is very low there. We have a lot of low lying areas. So we need to
address carbon seriously. We really do need to take this whole situation seriously of
energy and what we're going to do.
Council Chair Furfaro: I appreciate your caution and our seriousness to
address this. There are many of us that have similar concerns, but I again have to
say without going to committee and giving people an opportunity to testify about
choice is something that I'm wrestling with. Okay, members, on that note we will
come back to this item after our public hearing and after the agenda item for parks
& recreation at Lydgate and then we'll come back to this item. I want to thank both
of you for your patience in getting us to this point today.
We are on a lunch hour and we will return about 1:40 p.m.
There being no objection, the meeting was recessed at 12 :40 p.m.
The meeting was called back to order at 1:53 p.m., and proceeded as follows:
Mr. Nakamura: Council Chair, we're back on page 2 of the council's
agenda on communication C 2011 -256.
C 2011 -256 Communication (08/26/2011) from Councilmember Yukimura,
requesting Council approval, to include in the 2012 Hawaii State Association of
Counties Legislative Package, a proposal to amend Chapter 196, Hawaii Revised
Statutes (HRS), relating to Energy Resources, which requires solar water heating
for all new single - family and duplex construction.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. I think when we broke for lunch we
had taken public testimony and we will continue to do so. Is there any more
testimony? Please, come right up. Introduce yourself for the record.
There being no objection, the rules were suspended.
GLEN TAKENOUCHI, General Manager on Kauai, The Gas Company:
Good afternoon, Council Chair Furfaro and Vice Chair Yukimura and Members of
The Council. For the record my name is Glen Takenouchi, I'm the General Manager
on Kauai for The Gas Company. Again, thank you for this opportunity to provide
comment on C 2011 -256.
The Gas Company is here today to express our serious concern with
C 2011 -256. Should this measure go forward, it will limit consumer options for
other renewable energy options and create a rooftop monopoly for solar water
heating for Kauai. In addition, for a company as ours that has invested millions,
installed critical infrastructure on this island, it will deny us an equal opportunity
to compete and threaten future plans to further expand gas storage capacity, which
we believe will be essential in achieving energy security.
For Kauai especially nearing an anniversary of the devastating effects of
Hurricane Iniki, consumer flexibility and maintaining multiple energy sources is
vitally important. Based on numbers attained from the Hawaii State Energy
COUNCIL MEETING -52- September 7, 2011
Office, from the start of when the solar water heating mandate law went into effect,
about 35 percent of new homes were built with solar water heating systems. Today
75 percent of these homes utilize solar water heaters. These numbers clearly
confirm that the legislation is working as intended. If residents are limited to one
form of energy as a choice for heating water, then the industry supplying the energy
has a monopoly. If that becomes the case then the industry needs to be regulated
by the Public Utilities Commission.
The Gas Company has consistently expressed its support of all forms of
alternate energy to encourage innovation and to drive our state toward reducing its
dependence on imported petroleum. As a gas company we are especially excited
about one of our renewable pilot programs moving forward, our biosynthesis plant
project designed to process all forms of virgin oils and animal fats, generally
referred to as triglycerides, to make a biofeed stock or biofuel at our synthetic gas
manufacturing plant. Our goal is to produce at least 50 percent of the gas that is
manufactured locally from renewable sources by 2015. The Gas Company is a
public utility and Hawai`i's only government franchise full service gas energy
company making gas products and service available in Hawaii. For more than a
century we have provided Hawai`i's people with reliable, clean, and efficient
thermal energy. It has the lowest greenhouse gas emissions of any carbon based
energy source, and requires no additional imported oil to deliver three times more
energy to the home for industrial tasks such as cooking, heating, and drying. We
believe that the solar roof law is working as intended and therefore there is no need
to submit this measure from the counties to the State Legislature. Therefore we
ask the council not to advance this measure. Thank you for allowing us this
opportunity to provide comment on this proposal. Questions?
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Are there questions of Glen? Council
Vice Chair.
Ms. Yukimura: Hi, Glen. First of all thank you for participating on
the committee that's been looking at this kind of legislation for a long time. We
really appreciated the input and the corrections to keep us accurate, and also the
perspective.
I would presume that our fossil fuel dependence as a state is of concern to
The Gas Company?
Mr. Takenouchi: Yes.
Ms. Yukimura: And so is global warming a concern, I mean, and
overall sustainability of our island?
Mr. Takenouchi: Sure it is, yes.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay, does that mean then that The Gas Company
supports Act 204 as it stands?
Mr. Takenouchi: I believe we do, but I wasn't working on the
legislation itself so I can't say that, but yes it is.
Ms. Yukimura: Because... it limits choice.
Mr. Takenouchi: You mean the solar?
COUNCIL MEETING -53- September 7, 2011
Ms. Yukimura: Yeah, Act 204 limits choice. It limits choice
because our dependence on fossil fuels needs to shift and change, right? So we said,
because there's another alternative that's cheaper from a life cycle cost basis, helps
the household save money, and is beneficial in terms of global warming and fossil
fuel use, it's a good public policy to require the more beneficial alternative. That's
why we've limited choice.
Mr. Takenouchi: I believe in the solar water heater mandate, that's
the reason why they put the variance in there, for the possibility of having the
variance for propane is because it gave them choice (inaudible).
Ms. Yukimura: So why would we give people the choice of gas when
we don't give them the choice of electric?
Mr. Takenouchi: I don't know. I wasn't working on the law.
Ms. Yukimura: I mean there has to be something that
distinguishes gas from electric if we're going to say they're a different category such
that they qualify for an exemption.
Mr. Takenouchi: I think, as we stated, that the efficiency of gas was
for heating is a much better option than electricity, much more efficient. So that's
why I think it was included as part of the law. But I can't say that for sure because
I was not working on the law itself.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay, but solar water heating is far more efficient
than gas and doesn't have the impacts of carbon loading or fossil fuel use.
Mr. Takenouchi: Well if you're looking at carbon loading, you'd have
to look all the way back at the manufacturing of the solar panels too. I think there
is some carbon footprint there. I don't have that information; I can provide it if you
need to. Apollo probably does have that also, I think.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes, if you have those figures that would be good to
show. As long as we look at the impacts from beginning to end of all ... of both
sources that would be good. Okay, now there is also the option, I think your
company provides the option of solar with gas back -up?
Mr. Takenouchi: We don't presently have a program. There is gas
water heaters, tankless, as well as regular gas water heaters, that can provide that
now. We've shown that at some of the home shows.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes.
Mr. Takenouchi: But we do not presently have a program that
actually promotes it.
Ms. Yukimura: So this closing the loophole won't cut The Gas
Company out entirely. In fact, I think there might be a preference and an efficiency
factor of solar water heater with gas back -up over solar water heater with electric,
right?
Mr. Takenouchi: Yes.
Ms. Yukimura: I mean I'm saying this as a compliment to The Gas
Company and the gas alternative.
COUNCIL MEETING -54- September 7, 2011
Mr. Takenouchi: You're just trying to clarify that the efficiency
between solar and electric back -up versus solar and gas back -up?
Ms. Yukimura: Yes.
Mr. Takenouchi: It would be more efficient, yes. Life cycle cost I
think is...
Ms. Yukimura: So I mean that gives you a consumer advantage or
a marketing advantage actually if you take it in the context of solar with back -up.
Mr. Takenouchi: Yeah and again it depends if the person already
has the infrastructure installed because it does take a lot more piping and so forth if
you're going to install gas into your home versus electric normally is there.
Ms. Yukimura: Yeah, but you already have that issue, right, I
mean if a household already has electric. Am I not understanding you correctly?
You're saying if they have to install completely more gas infrastructure.
Mr. Takenouchi: If they don't have other gas appliances, then they
would have to install the whole infrastructure, the piping and so forth. So that
would be additional.
Ms. Yukimura: Right, right. But that's an existing market
situation no matter what. I mean, a certain percentage of houses have gas and a
certain percentage of houses have electric.
Mr. Takenouchi: Correct.
Ms. Yukimura: Yeah.
Mr. Takenouchi: But what you're saying now is with the solar, then
you would have to have a 100 percent of gas, is that what you're saying?
Ms. Yukimura: I don't think so. I mean, you have a solar water
heating system and then you have a gas system as a back -up, right? And if you
take a solar with gas back -up versus solar with electric back -up, I think you can
claim a higher efficiency than the electric.
Mr. Takenouchi: I believe you can, yes.
Ms. Yukimura: Yeah and then of course what the market share is
of gas houses versus electric houses is not really related to requiring solar. Okay. I
think that's all I have as questions.
Mr. Takenouchi: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Members, any more ... Mr. Chang.
Mr. Chang: Thank you, Chairman. Glen, thank you for coming
here. I just wanted to ... I was following your testimony, but in the second paragraph
if I'm not mistaken you missed a sentence but I think it was very important. It
said, "Gas is truly an energy saver and is fully aligned with the Hawaii Clean
Energy Initiative goals." I think you skipped that sentence, so I just wanted to read
COUNCIL MEETING -55- September 7, 2011
that in. But on the top paragraph on page two, "We are especially excited about one
of our renewable pilot programs." Are there several other renewable programs
you're working on right now?
Mr. Takenouchi: There are other possibilities of renewable programs
we are going to be working on. I don't have all the statistics and facts on that yet,
but I can provide it to you.
Mr. Chang: Okay, I guess you were looking at this biosynthesis,
50 percent of the gas manufactured locally for renewable sources. Is that a pretty
realistic goal of 2015?
Mr. Takenouchi: I think by the end of this year we will determine
that, but that's what our goal is at the present time.
Mr. Chang: 2015.
Mr. Takenouchi: Yes.
Mr. Chang: Okay, thank you, Chairman. Thank you, Glen.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Mr. Bynum, did you have questions?
Mr. Bynum: Yes, hi Glen, thank you for your testimony.
Mr. Takenouchi: Hi, you're welcome.
Mr. Bynum: I just have a quick question, maybe you know. I
have an assumption that gas is more efficient than electricity for clothes drying in
terms of energy usage, cost. Do you know anything about that?
Mr. Takenouchi: For heating, yes.
Mr. Bynum: For clothes drying, right?
Mr. Takenouchi: Yes.
Mr. Bynum: And so other than that I just want to take this
opportunity to acknowledge a very patient staff. I have one of the two tank gas
things...
Mr. Takenouchi: Oh, cylinders?
Mr. Bynum: Yeah and we're forever ... I don't get informed when
the first one runs out, and then we run out totally, and your staff has just been so
patient and gracious, and done the best they could to expedite it when we were out
of gas. So, I personally find gas for cooking and clothes drying the best alternative.
Mr. Takenouchi: We appreciate your business. We definitely do.
Mr. Bynum: Okay, thank you.
Mr. Takenouchi: We'll try to serve you as best as we can.
Council Chair Furfaro: Councilwoman Nakamura.
COUNCIL MEETING -56- September 7, 2011
Ms. Nakamura: Good afternoon, Glen.
Mr. Takenouchi: Good afternoon.
Ms. Nakamura: I have a couple of questions. How many employees
does The Gas Company have on Kauai?
Mr. Takenouchi: Presently we have 21.
Ms. Nakamura: Twenty -one?
Mr. Takenouchi: Twenty -one employees that serve the entire island,
yes.
Ms. Nakamura: What would be the impact of not having new
customers have on your business?
Mr. Takenouchi: It definitely would... as far as our company is
concerned, they would definitely look at how they would invest on Kauai because
we are looking at expanding our storage capacity here to meet future expansion
plans, but also for development plans too for any of these biosynthesis and
biopropane and biodiesel type of projects. They would definitely be looking at
whether or not there is any growth there at all.
Ms. Nakamura: And biodiesel, biopropane alternatives, what type
of...would those be, excuse my ignorance, but are those gas related products?
Mr. Takenouchi: Actually biopropane, maybe I misspoke biodiesel,
but it's actually biosynthesis. So it would be feedstock into our renewable SNG,
synthetic natural gas plant, on Oahu. But it's our hope in the future of producing
biopropane that could be used on the neighbor islands because the neighbor islands
all have propane and we don't have any natural gas here in Hawaii.
Ms. Nakamura: Would any of those finished products that you're
testing now fall under the fourth category of variance or is it a totally separate
product?
out.
Mr. Takenouchi: I truly cannot answer that but I can ask, I can find
Ms. Nakamura: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: You're welcome to come up and join him.
Mr. Chang: Hold on, hold on let's, I think we probably have a
little bit more questions for Glen.
Council Chair Furfaro: No, no, she's just coming up to sit next to him.
Mr. Chang: Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, I'm sorry. I thought she was
going to ... okay, I'm sorry.
Council Chair Furfaro: No, no, I wasn't dismissing Glen. I was just... she...
COUNCIL MEETING -57- September 7, 2011
STEPHANIE ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Chair and Vice Chair Yukimura
and Members of The County Council. My name is Stephanie Ackerman. I'm Vice
President of Government Affairs and Communications for The Gas Company. I may
not be able to answer all the technical questions, but perhaps I can help Glen in
answering some of the questions that you're asking.
Currently on Oahu for more than a year now The Gas Company has been
working very closely with the State in its energy efficiency goals. One of the
projects that we have been working on on Oahu is the development of a pilot project
at our synthetic gas manufacturing plant. We have the only gas manufacturing
plant in the entire United States. Why? Because in the continental U.S. there's
natural gas that's in the ground, but Hawaii does not have natural gas in the
ground, but we are so fortunate that we built this plant on Campbell Industrial
Park and what we do is we take waste product from the manufacturing of motor
and aviation fuel. So it's a product called NAPHTHA. There is no real use for it
other than manufacturing of gas. And so at this plant we take the NAPHTHA and
we produce city gas. We call it synthetic natural gas. The plant, also in the last
year in a laboratory, we've been able to take vegetable oils, triglyceride, and we put
it through a chemical process where we actually heat it to a high level and we crack
the components and we've been able to make methane. So we currently have the
pilot, we've invested more than a million dollars. We have the pilot; it is currently
being hooked up at our plant. The goal is to take product that is grown here on the
islands. So it would be animal, algae, plant, waste product and oils, integrate it as
a feedstock in the manufacturing of our gas, and we actually have been able to
produce on a small scale, on a laboratory scale, biomethane, biopropane, and
renewable hydrogen. These are all in line with the State's energy, renewable
energy and efficiency goals. We have a serious concern that if you were to eliminate
gas as an option, then any renewable products also that we have been investing in
our state to make and reach these goals would now be jeopardized. So perhaps that
answers your question.
Council Chair Furfaro: We're going to stop right there because I allowed
you to come up to help answer that question and we will give you your own
three minutes after Glen. You can stay right there. So, Councilmember Nakamura,
you still have the floor.
Ms. Nakamura: Thank you, I'm done, thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Oh, you're done, okay. Members, any questions?
Ms. Yukimura: I do.
Council Chair Furfaro: Directed at Glen?
Ms. Yukimura: Ms. Ackerman.
Council Chair Furfaro: Well I'm going to let her give her own testimony
and then you can have questions of her.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay.
Ms. Ackerman: I don't have any testimony.
Council Chair Furfaro: You have no testimony? Okay, then feel free to
direct it to either one who can answer the question.
COUNCIL MEETING -58- September 7, 2011
Ms. Yukimura: Okay, great, thank you. Thank you, Stephanie,
Ms. Ackerman for being here. I just wanted to make sure I understood your last
point. If you eliminate gas, the option of gas for water heating which is the only
thing that is impacted here ... then what happens? Or what are you concerned that
would happen?
Ms. Ackerman: The existing bill allows for energy options for
consumers and it's my understanding that the initiative was part of lawmakers'
efforts to try to move the needle for the state to become more energy efficient and to
find renewable sources of energy for the state. It wasn't to create monopolies, it
wasn't to remove consumer options, but it was to find ways that we could shift the
state toward renewable solutions. And there was recognition that gas was also a
very efficient fuel, which is why gas was one of the options that could be considered.
But to go one step further, rather than just having gas as an energy
source to heat water, lawmakers wanted to be that much more efficient so they said,
"but you have to have another appliance in the home," and so that's what drove that
legislation. To totally remove gas as an option does not recognize that it's an energy
efficient fuel. But also as we move to bring in more renewable energy products that
are of the gaseous matter, you're now going to eliminate renewable energy fuels to
be selected.
Ms. Yukimura: Actually that's not true because the amendments
we're going to be suggesting will allow any technology that meets the standard of
solar water heating to also be an option, which wasn't in the bill. But because we're
going to tie ... we're allowing for new technologies and that can be gaseous kind of
fuels, but they have to meet the standard that the solar water heater system does in
terms of fossil fuel use and carbon production. So it does make room for new
technologies and new fuel sources, which I commend The Gas Company for looking
at, but it still has to meet the standard. If there is an electric standard, I mean
electric technology that meets that also, the amendments we're proposing would
allow it. So it's trying to say that no matter what the existing technology is, this
law would be open to new technologies as long as they meet the standards.
Ms. Ackerman: Can I just respond that...
Ms. Yukimura: Oh yes, please.
Ms. Ackerman: In the three years that I've been with this company
and I've spoken to many state lawmakers, it was always about affording consumers
with options.
Ms. Yukimura: But then how do you...
Ms. Ackerman: And I think you're eliminating an option for a
consumer.
Ms. Yukimura: But how do you explain then eliminating electricity
as an option? That was clearly an elimination of option.
Ms. Ackerman: I believe that when homes are built electricity is
still a major wiring infrastructure within the home and so currently the solar bill
does allow for electricity in the home, so maybe I don't understand your question.
Ms. Yukimura: Right, this bill will not ban gas from a home
neither does it ban electricity from a home. It just would ban electricity or gas if the
COUNCIL MEETING -59- September 7, 2011
amendments are accepted as an option for primary water heating. It would allow
gas and electric for back -up because there are days when solar doesn't work, so you
need to have a back -up and the bill allows electric back -up and would allow gas
back -up.
Ms. Ackerman: But it does not recognize that gas is still a very
efficient fuel.
Ms. Yukimura: It does.
Ms. Ackerman: It's not if you totally remove gas as an option and if
you remove gas as an option then consumers cannot choose gas.
Ms. Yukimura: Because it's not efficient enough.
Ms. Ackerman: Who determines that efficiency?
Ms. Yukimura: The standard of solar water heating. The best
available technology is the standard.
Ms. Ackerman: Then it's the solar industry who's establishing that
standard.
Ms. Yukimura: No, it's the nature of solar water heating that
establishes the standard. It's called best practice technology and if anybody else
and any other technology can meet that standard, then it can also be installed and
used for water heating.
Ms. Ackerman: Well, I also heard earlier that first we will remove
gas as the option for new home construction and then we will look at retrofitting.
So I have to say that it looks and breathes and seems to be an effort to eliminate a
business from fairly competing in the market. If, as you said, your residents on this
island want to have that choice, why would government prevent a consumer from
having a choice?
Ms. Yukimura: Because the choice is detrimental to the
environment and to the economy of the island because we cannot remain dependent
on fossil fuels and keep sending out billions of dollars from our economy. That's our
goal, that's the goal of the Hawaii Energy Initiative.
Ms. Ackerman: But the Hawaii Energy Initiative is all inclusive of
energy products; it is not just eliminate one industry and then we'll look at the rest
of them.
Ms. Yukimura: And we're not eliminating an industry because
we're allowing gas in homes. It's just you're not allowing gas for solar water
heating.
Ms. Ackerman: But you are telling a business that you can
continue to keep the customers you currently have but you cannot acquire a new
customer.
Ms. Yukimura: Oh no, you can, you can. You can have gas
customers, new gas customers over and over and over again.
COUNCIL MEETING -60- September 7, 2011
Ms. Ackerman: I guess I can't understand that if I am a new home
builder from the get -go when I'm going to plumb my house and put in gas, I'm going
to look for all of the variables that allow for an efficient construction project and so
you're saying from the get -go you're limiting a consumer's options.
Ms. Yukimura: No.
Ms. Ackerman: Maybe we just can agree that we disagree.
Council Chair Furfaro: I think that would be the best option at this time.
Ms. Ackerman: Yeah.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: That you agree to disagree, and I think this
discussion going around and around here, members, is exactly why I'm saying this
thing should be deferred to a Committee, that we can have this meaningful
schedule rather than just send it over to HSAC. That's my whole point, but we have
an HSAC president who is a member of our board and I'm going to give him the
floor.
Mr. Rapozo: Are you done, Councilmember Yukimura?
Ms. Yukimura: Yes.
Mr. Rapozo: Okay, thank you, and thank you, Mr. Chair. And I
apologize...
Council Chair Furfaro: You can always check with me if I gave you the
floor.
Mr. Rapozo:
Oh, yeah.
Council Chair Furfaro: You can have the floor.
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you, I apologize for stepping in...
Council Chair Furfaro: Do you have questions for...
Mr. Rapozo: Yes, I do. I have one question. You brought up the
retrofitting that I know was mentioned earlier today. As far as The Gas Company
is concerned, should these amendments pass and this initiative moves forward and
without the retrofitting of older existing structures, what would that do to the gas
company as far as your survivability here on Kauai? Because I would assume that
even if everybody, every new home owner and home builder decided to obviously
they would have to have a solar heater, but if they decided to use gas as the back -up
and not electricity which most people do, what does that do for The Gas Company
here on Kauai?
Mr. Takenouchi: Well, a rough estimation as you probably heard
before is that the back -up water heater would probably only be on only about
10 percent of the time. So, you'd be looking at a drop in consumption of 90 percent
on a standard water heater.
COUNCIL MEETING -61- September 7, 2011
Mr. Rapozo: On the new homes constructed and obviously if
eventually retrofit is part of this bill...
Mr. Takenouchi: It would affect it even worse.
Mr. Rapozo: Does that affect your ability to stay in business
here on Kauai? Is there enough non - residential or non -water heater business with
The Gas Company for The Gas Company to stay here?
Mr. Takenouchi: There is other businesses, the commercial business,
the restaurants, the hotels, all use our product for heating, clothes drying, washing.
The residential here on Kauai is quite a large business for us and a large part of
that is in the residential heating.
Ms. Yukimura: Is what, I'm sorry?
Mr. Takenouchi: Residential heating, which could be cooking,
drying, and water heating, I'm sorry, not just water heating but all heating.
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you, that's all I have, Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay. Council Vice Chair, before I go to you, let me
see if any other members have questions. Mr. Chang, did you have a question?
Mr. Chang: I didn't have a question, but Glen would you mind
putting the mike a little bit closer to you? Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Bynum, you had a question?
Mr. Bynum: Yeah, do you have a sense of how much of the gas
consumption is used for water heating right now?
Mr. Takenouchi: I don't have that right off the top of my head, but I
can get it for you.
Mr. Bynum: I was just curious if you knew that because I'm a
happy gas customer, but I don't use it for hot water heating. I think many people
prefer gas for cooking in particular.
Mr. Takenouchi: True.
Mr. Bynum: And I believe you answered my question that it's
more efficient for clothes drying, not as efficient as hanging it outside, but I don't
always have time to do that. Thank you.
Mr. Takenouchi: Sure, you're welcome.
Council Chair Furfaro: Vice Chair, you have the floor.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes, solar with gas back -up would drop your gas
consumption to 10 percent, but that's just the gas consumption for water heating?
Right?
Mr. Takenouchi: Correct.
COUNCIL MEETING -62- September 7, 2011
Ms. Yukimura: Which is sort of what Councilmember Bynum's
question was going to, how much gas of your total sales is used for water heating
because the point I was... go ahead.
Mr. Takenouchi: I'm not sure, but I think the question was, well the
way I interpreted it is how much gas in the home is actually used for water heating.
Ms. Yukimura: That would be another way to look at it.
Mr. Takenouchi: I don't have that right off the top of my head, but I
can get that for you.
Ms. Yukimura: Oh, okay.
Mr. Takenouchi: I think what you're referring to is how much gas
would be consumed by say a tankless water heater or a standard gas water heater
as a back -up to solar, and that I think we had discussed earlier was about
10 percent.
Ms. Yukimura: Right, but it's not 10 percent of a total household's
gas consumption.
Mr. Takenouchi: No.
Ms. Yukimura: That's the distinction I wanted to make. It's
10 percent of a portion and that's what you're going to get us, what is the portion of
gas consumption of a household used for water heating.
Mr. Takenouchi: Correct.
Ms. Yukimura: And then if solar comes in, you would take
10 percent of that to find out what the gas usage would be for solar with gas
back -up. Is that right?
Mr. Takenouchi: Yeah, I think you're saying it in a different way. I
think you'd be reducing that volume by about 90 percent.
Ms. Yukimura: But that's only of the amount used for water
heating, not for cooking and clothes drying and those other uses, which will be there
and can continue to be added on in terms of households choosing to use gas.
Mr. Takenouchi: Correct.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay, all right, thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro:
speakers? No? If not, thank:
Mr. Takenouchi:
Ms. Yukimura:
Council Chair Furfaro:
order.
Okay, are there any more questions for the two
you very much.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
I'm going to go ahead and call this meeting back to
The meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as follows:
COUNCIL MEETING -63- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: And I just want to say that I think the nature of
the questions that came up pretty much substantiates why I feel it would be ... if
we're going to make all these comparisons, it would be wise of us to refer this to a
committee and we can continue some of the dialogue, collecting data, and pursue it
from there and perhaps in the Intergovernmental Relations Committee. That was
my statement and I'll leave it at that for any other discussion at this point.
Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: I think referring to committee is fine and we should
continue it, but I wanted to put my two cents in at least regarding this bill or this
proposal and also to answer the question from my perspective of why would we limit
choice because that's a good question.
So let me start with saying that I don't think government should restrict
choice and freedom unless there is a compelling reason to do that. And we do that.
We require hurricane clips on houses and that increases cost. We adopted energy
efficiency building codes which does increase cost because it's very much in our
world's and community's best interest to try to limit energy consumption,
particularly carbon producing energy, particularly in Hawaii where we have the sea
level rise and impacts us all around. And then but just for the economics of Kauai,
I met with KIUC —I think it was yesterday —and they said in terms of reducing
energy consumption, solar water heating is the biggest bang for the buck by far.
They have to plan for peak demand. It's very exciting that we have a number of
solar projects coming online. In the near future they're going to have a significant
impact on energy, but the electric utility has to prepare for peak loads which
happen to happen at night when solar PV is not that effective. And so they have to
have these diesel generators ready to go and if our overall energy consumption is
higher as a community, they're going to have to have more infrastructure and more
costs. And so I think they're all very compelling arguments about why following
through with the intent of the bill that was passed by the legislature of requiring
solar water heating on all new home construction is in the community's best
interest and warrants, in my opinion, some restriction of choice or liberties. We
don't have the choice not to wear seatbelts because injury accidents impact the
healthcare cost for all of us and as a society we said, hey, you can act irresponsibly
and it affects your life, but when acting irresponsibly affects all of our lives, then we
have to perhaps restrict liberties to some extent.
We received testimony from DBEDT and the state agency who's encouraging
us to pass this resolution. So I'd be happy to have it go to committee and have
further discussion because I'd like to be enlightened, but I stand in support of this
as it is right now.
Council Chair Furfaro: Any further discussion? Vice Chair Yukimura.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes, Mr. Chair, I don't have any objections to
referring it to committee. My only concern was the timetable, HSAC's timetable,
which I had been talking to the chair about.
Council Chair Furfaro: The president?
Ms. Yukimura: The president. Yes, thank you of HSAC,
Councilmember Rapozo. So I believe with his leadership we could take some time
in committee next week, I believe?
Council Chair Furfaro: Next week we're not meeting due to our transition.
COUNCIL MEETING -64- September 7, 2011
Ms. Yukimura:
So it would be on the 21st?
Council Chair Furfaro: The 21st is a full Council Meeting. So it's the 28th
when it would be in a committee.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay, we're going from a council meeting to a
council meeting.
Council Chair Furfaro: The Charter only requires us to have two council
meetings.
Ms. Yukimura: Yeah, no, that's fine, I just didn't realize that,
which means it would be too late then for your next HSAC meeting, unless we
schedule a special council... a committee meeting so that we can do it in time for a
council meeting on the 21st.
Mr. Rapozo: May I, Mr. Chair?
Council Chair Furfaro: You may have the floor.
Mr. Rapozo: Being that we have some time, what I need to look
at at the timeline going forward, and just for all of your information, more so the
new councilmembers, as the HSAC rep, I'll be taking the vote of this council to
HSAC. Obviously if it doesn't pass, HSAC requires a unanimous consent in order
for it to be on the package.
Council Chair Furfaro: Not by members but by the majority of the body.
Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Ms. Yukimura: By counties.
Mr. Rapozo: So four of the four counties' representatives would
have to support the initiative. Our next HSAC meeting in October will be, I believe,
on the 5th and that would take our council meeting on the ....
Ms. Yukimura: The 28th.
Mr. Rapozo: On the 5th, huh?
Council Chair Furfaro: We have the 21st for a council meeting, 28th for a
committee meeting, and the 5th is a council meeting again.
Mr. Rapozo: Okay, so the Friday would be the 8th. No, I'm
sorry, the 7th. So hypothetically if it made its way through, we could get it on the
HSAC agenda in October providing it does pass.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, I think that answers that question.
Ms. Yukimura: Wait, could I just...
Council Chair Furfaro: You want to summarize that again for Vice Chair?
COUNCIL MEETING -65- September 7, 2011
Mr. Rapozo: Yes, if we go on the current timeline, because we're
not having a committee meeting, you basically have two options. You can actually
defer this to another council meeting and have the discussion at the council
meeting. That's entirely up to the Chair. I don't know what the weight or the load
of that council meeting will be.
Council Chair Furfaro: It's pretty heavy right now.
Mr. Rapozo: That's what I thought. Or you could wait for the
next committee meeting and then have the discussion and then pass it up.
Council Chair Furfaro: Which is on the 28th.
Mr. Rapozo:
Correct.
Council Chair Furfaro: You can move it to the Council on the 5th.
Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Council Chair Furfaro: And you could have something in your hands on the
7th to go to HSAC.
Mr. Rapozo: Correct. And if it does not pass, then obviously we
would post it on the HSAC agenda anyway to have discussion on this resolution and
then we can have the discussion depending on what happens. So you'd still make
the time and again the legislative package, it'll take some time to get the HSAC
package together and get it approved by all counties in time for the opening of the
legislature.
Council Chair Furfaro: Vice Chair Yukimura.
Ms. Yukimura: Chair, that works for me just as long as we can
make sure it gets on the HSAC agenda, assuming it passes, on the 7th.
Councilmember Rapozo...
Council Chair Furfaro: Excuse me, gentlemen, the Vice Chair was
speaking to Mr. Rapozo.
Mr. Rapozo:
I'm sorry.
Ms. Yukimura: And I appreciate the forethought in saying that
you'd put it on the agenda so that everybody has notice, otherwise it would be really
short from the 5th to the 7th.
Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Ms. Yukimura: And then just so that everyone understands, it then
goes to the other counties for their deliberation and ratification, and then if all
counties approve, then it would come back, right?
Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay, so....
Mr. Rapozo: It's a pretty lengthy process.
COUNCIL MEETING -66- September 7, 2011
Ms. Yukimura: Process, yes, but that's important for everybody to
be able to have time to really look at it. So the 27th...
Council Chair Furfaro: The 28th in committee.
Ms. Yukimura: If we refer it.
Council Chair Furfaro: Refer it.
Ms. Yukimura: We would refer it to the committee meeting on the
28th, is that correct?
Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Ms. Yukimura: And then presume that the council would get to
consider the committee's recommendations on the 5th?
Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Ms. Yukimura: And if it successfully comes out of the council, then
it will go to HSAC on the 7th?
Mr. Rapozo: Right.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay.
Mr. Rapozo: And hopefully the counties, because all of the
proposals come to HSAC, hopefully by October /November would be the vetting out
process for the county so we can get a final package completed... approved package
to the individual counties in December before the opening in January.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay.
Mr. Rapozo: That's the plan and that's in a perfect world, which
we don't live in.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Well, I want you to know that I did the calculation
of the calendar without any electronic devices. I did it by memory. So I'm looking
for a motion that would refer this to the Intergovernmental Relations Committee,
that's Mr. Kuali`i's committee and that would be on the 28th and then that
committee recommendation could go to the full council on the 5th.
Mr. Rapozo: Mr. Chair, I have a process question.
Council Chair Furfaro: Sure.
Mr. Rapozo: Because we do have a motion to approve on the
floor, do we need to withdraw that motion? It overrides the motion?
Ms. Yukimura: Yeah.
Mr. Rapozo: Okay, thank you.
COUNCIL MEETING -67- September 7, 2011
Ms. Nakamura:
Committee on 9/28.
Mr. Chang:
Move to refer to the Intergovernmental Relations
Second.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you, any further discussion? If not all those
in favor, please signify by saying aye. Thank you very much.
Ms. Nakamura moved to refer C
Relations Committee Meeting on
Mr. Chang, and unanimously carried.
2011 -256 to the Intergovernmental
September 28, 2011, seconded by
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much. Thank you for all of you
that testified. This will come back on our agenda September 28th in a committee
headed by Mr. Kuali`i.
Okay, I believe, before we broke for lunch I indicated to the group that I
would like to go to the Parks and Recreation item on Lydgate, and so Mr. Rapozo,
thank you for being here. Let's go ahead and read that item.
There being no objections, Bill No. 2149, Draft 4, was taken out of order.
Mr. Nakamura: Council Chair, we're on page 6 of the council's
agenda on a Bill for Second Reading, Bill No. 2149, Draft 4.
BILL FOR SECOND READING:
Bill No. 2149, Draft 4 — A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE AMENDING SECTION
19 -2.1 AND ADDING A NEW ARTICLE TO CHAPTER 19 OF THE KAUAI
COUNTY CODE 1987, RELATING TO CAMPING AT LYDGATE PARK
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Mr. Clerk, I want to say that I know of one
amendment that may be introduced at this time. Are there any other amendments
that might be introduced? It's just one, okay. I also understand from the piece of
correspondence here that went out of Mr. Bynum's committee, there are eight
questions that were responded to. I will say again that I was hoping not to have so
many questions being posed at the council level, but we're going to deal with it.
Please reflect on my position for future meetings. Were there any other questions
that went over? Did any other councilmembers send over any other questions other
than this one dated September 7th? No? Yes...
(Inaudible.)
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, so those would be questions now as well?
Were they answered? Okay, just for the audience, there were questions sent over
on July 28th from Councilmember Rapozo and I would like to have them if I'm going
to chair this activity. On that note, I guess I'm looking for a motion to approve and
second, so that I can invite Mr. Rapozo up.
Mr. Kuali`i moved to approve Bill No. 2149, Draft 4, on second and final
reading and that it be transmitted to the Mayor for his approval, seconded by
Mr. Chang.
COUNCIL MEETING -68- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. On that note
you're attending a public meeting tonight and so, are
questions and responses we got from the administration
questions?
There being no objection, the rules were suspended.
Mr. Rapozo, we know
you familiar with the
on Mr. Bynum's eight
LEONARD A. RAPOZO, JR., Director of Parks & Recreation: For the
record, Director of Parks & Recreation, Lenny Rapozo. Yes, I am. I submitted these
answers this morning. We received it last Friday.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, are you familiar with the questions that
surfaced from Mr. Rapozo on July 28th?
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Maybe I can take a look at it, I don't recall off the
top of my head.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, we're getting a particular copy then. Sorry,
I'm going to ... we didn't get the responses?
Mr. Rapozo:
Ms. Yukimura:
Council Chair Furfaro:
Mr. Chang:
I don't even have it yet.
I don't think I have it either.
Does anyone have...
The responses for the...
Council Chair Furfaro: One question. Does anybody have the July 28
questions that was submitted via my office from Mr. Rapozo to the administration?
Mr. Chang: I don't have it.
Council Chair Furfaro: Anybody? Okay, we're going to take a five- minute
recess and find that piece.
There being no objection, the meeting was recessed at 2:41 p.m.
The meeting was called back to order at 2:51 p.m., and proceeded as follows:
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. We are back from our break. We have
the appropriate communications, and I would like this to be more the exception
than the rule to have things come to the full council rather than being worked out in
the committees. Before I recognize Mr. Bynum, I want to make sure that I go
through the 11 pending questions because several of them are in fact duplicates in
different communications.
First and foremost on the communication from Mr. Rapozo, there were three
questions and I'm not sure what is being handed out now. Is this another series of
questions that was unanswered? Is that August 8?
Mr. Rapozo:
September 7.
Council Chair Furfaro: September 7? Excuse me, would somebody tell me
is that one and the same? Yes or no? It's one and the same. Eight, got it. Okay.
COUNCIL MEETING -69- September 7, 2011
Mr. Rapozo:
Council Chair Furfaro:
I need an August 8.
Lenny we're on recess again.
There being no objection, the meeting was recessed at 2:52 p.m.
The meeting was called back to order at 2:54 p.m., and proceeded as follows:
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Lenny, let me first apologize for the
discombuberation here. First and foremost this message is to my staff. This is not
traditionally an item that comes to the councilmember to be running through a
committee. Second message here, if it is your committee that you forward it to the
full council, take responsibility to see that all the pieces are established for the staff
before we start. Consider that a rule. So Lenny.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Yes, sir?
Council Chair Furfaro: We have the following pieces and I want to
summarize them again. On the August 8 summary, there were three questions.
Those questions were duplicated in some of the September 7 correspondence. They
were as follows, they touched on the following pieces: the restroom standards, in
particular for the camping grounds (and I believe we will have an amendment
introduced on that); we had some direct questions regarding compliance to the
disability act on the campgrounds and are they some of the group that will be
approved in the early process; there was a question regarding the staffing guides
that were established in the budget; there was a need for some clarification on a
partial opening of the campgrounds as it relates to which camp numbers would be
available; there was a duplicate question in the September 7 dealing with the same
question regarding restroom facilities at the campground, so that's a duplicate; the
next question dealt with the guidelines and limitations dealing with fishermen
access and obviously below the high water mark is not in Lydgate's jurisdiction; the
next question dealt certainly with the requirements to actually obtain a camping
permit; the next question is the parameters and what actions would be taken if
people are found sleeping in their cars, etc., within the campground boundaries; the
next question was the park ranger and I had shared with you my approval on the
park ranger was that there was going to be an opportunity for us to do some checks
and standards on the park itself for the ranger who is designated as an additional
ranger for Lydgate. So there were four sub - questions associated with protecting
equipment and maintenance, and I'm prepared to give you the standards for
Virginia Beach Campgrounds as adopted as a management tool because I think we
lack a punch list that includes an action form of the various work orders that were
found. Whether they were a splintered railing, a broken bulletin board, that there
was going to be some kind of a log and I'm going to make that available to you as
you go with your UPW negotiations. Staffing guides are duplicated here as it
relates to the actual working shifts. There are also questions regarding what is the
connection in responses between the park rangers and the Kauai Police
Department officers on duty. The question also deals with the park caretakers and
how they are dealing with emergency situations, what are the standard procedures
for them, and then the procedures on issuing citations. Now it is my understanding
that we have approximately 60 days that your department is covering some of these
questions with, may I say with the UPW. No matter what the outcome is here,
these things will not go into effect for 60 days. I also have for you a set copy of a
maintenance management plan for campgrounds along the east coast of the State of
Virginia as well that would be good comparisons for you during these 60 days.
Staff, could you give this maintenance checklist as well as the standards for
managing the campgrounds to Mr. Rapozo for his general information? Now those
COUNCIL MEETING -70- September 7, 2011
are the 11 questions of which 3 were duplicated in correspondence that are before
us now. I'm going to recognize Mr. Bynum and then we'll hear from you. So
Mr. Bynum, you have the floor.
Mr. Bynum: I just want to address the process issues you were
discussing earlier. I just want to point out that this bill was deferred in committee
a couple of times at least and that there were questions dated August 8 that were
received and reviewed on the 10th, which was one of the deferrals in committee.
And I told the committee members and the council that we should complete the
work in committee, that if there were any amendments please give them to be done
in committee, and if there were any questions that they would be consolidated
which is this document you have here. These aren't all my questions. They went
under my signature because councilmembers ... it's a good practice, I believe, for the
committee chair to take those questions from several members, not send several
documents over, but consolidate them and the staff cooperated with that. So I just
wanted to make that.
Council Chair Furfaro: So there's two messages I want to redirect because
also in that meeting I said, if you're not ready to take this out of committee, I'll be
glad to send it back to committee. The other part I'm trying to say, if you as
committee chair people are working on items and you send something to me, please
make it your kuleana to collect these pieces in advance of something going to the
full council and that comment is directed at the staff and is the first time that I've
ever expressed some disappointment in us having ourselves prepared for our weekly
meeting.
Now, Lenny, thank you for bearing with us and me revisiting the parameters,
but this is now in my committee. You saw my three comments from what I passed
to you, the things I think we can work on to create the right standard. Sir, the floor
is yours and you can make a presentation to us.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Thank you, Council Chair. I think not only as a
Lydgate campground, but as a whole, our department, my staff and myself, we are
working on a management plan for our department and this definitely will help.
We'll take into consideration that we are working on training staff not only to
recognize maintenance issues but also safety issues as well. We haven't completed
that package because you know how sometimes it goes. You work on it and then
things come up and we have to shift gears to deal with other things. But we
definitely, I definitely will take this checklist and include it into what we're trying
to accomplish. I think that what you have presented to me, we believe in, and that
when the people of Kauai had voted for a Department of Parks & Recreation, they
had hoped that Parks & Recreation would be the focus of the department and we
take that to heart and we try our best to get what we need done for the community
in what they had envisioned. Also, we're going to get there. We're always going to
strive. We'll never be completely finished because I think part of dealing in any
kind of organization is you always want to get better. And so thank you for the
checklist, we'll move on.
With respect to the different communications, we've tried to provide the
council with whatever information that they had so that they can make a good
sound policy decision to help us move this project forward. If we wanted to go
through all of the questions, I don't mind having that done, but I believe that the
questions are answered as best to my knowledge and we want to move forward with
the campground. I do understand that there's some skepticism and some
apprehension as to staffing and all of that, but I believe we have a sound plan by
opening up not all of the campgrounds to see impacts and to adjust and make
COUNCIL MEETING -71- September 7, 2011
adjustments and make corrections. And in the process, I just want to remind this
body that during our budget process you entrusted with our department the plan to
upgrade that complete facility and so when we use the term, and I like all of your
stories about when you grew up what you considered to be world class, I think that's
very important for what we believe to be world class is that when we're moving
forward we're not there yet in world class. But we want to move forward with the
changing of the fixtures as we had discussed in the budget hearings and as part
that was referenced in the Mayor's Holoholo 2020. So we are looking and most of
that work, a good portion of that work is going to be done in- house. So we're
working with public works or discussing when can we move that and that's the first
part that we're going to make these retrofits with. We talked about stainless steel
and all of that, that includes the campground. We want to complete that whole
park.
In order to do the upgrades, one thing that we do recognize that we may not
have the in -house ability to do is to re -seal, clean, and re -do tile in the comfort
stations. So, I believe that we're moving in the right direction. I'm hoping that this
committee or this council will see it their way to move this bill forward, this
ordinance forward, we can do some camping. I don't envision anything changing
outside of the campsites with some of the questions that were raised. The
fishermen are fishing and we're allowing them to fish, we're allowing them to do
things that they were doing because the intent of what we're trying to accomplish
shouldn't impact them. They should be able to do what we allow people to do
because we all enjoy doing it. We want to focus on the campground and manage the
campground.
Now if things do come up and then we'll address them and deal with them,
but we want to continue to allow the people outside the campground to do what they
normally do because that is the intent of it and we've never, till today, haven't gone
there to interfere because they're not posing a problem. I like to use the drinking
bill, the no drinking bill from 11 p.m. to in the morning in county parks, intent is a
tool to help manage certain behaviors. I think we have the necessary tools to help
manage the campground and hopefully make it a good experience for our people. So
with that being said, I'll take any questions that this body may have.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, first of all, I want to make sure you
understand, I reference having a high standard.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Yes.
Council Chair Furfaro: I didn't use the term world class.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: I agree.
Council Chair Furfaro: I think others did, but I think the big concern right
now is having a standard that we can constantly build on and therefore I did the
research on the checklist for the park on park maintenance and the guidelines for
the Virginia Beach Camping Grounds. Will we be seeing something that
establishes the minimum standard before the time we actually have agreed on the
park is open for camping? Can we assume that because it's not our job to negotiate
who's inspecting the splintered room and how much you trim the grass that goes on
the pavilion, so that's your kuleana.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Right.
COUNCIL MEETING -72- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: But we would like to have a standard that we know
you've been working with and there's an understanding from the bargaining unit
that it exists. Can we assume that is what the target is?
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Yes, sir. There will be an informal standard, but
what I just described to you as a department, what I want is a formal standard.
There will be an informal standard, yes. These need to be met within the
campgrounds and we will be meeting with UPW next week to go over it again as to
what we expect our people to be doing at the campground area. But I wanted to
share with you as a department, we want to eventually get to that place where it
doesn't only include Lydgate Beach Park, we want it to include every county facility
whether it's a playground, whether it's a neighborhood center, whether it's a
meeting room at Smokey Valley Clubhouse or whatever it was. We want to do a
standard that when everybody or whoever maintains that these are the items that
we're looking for. That's the direction that we want to have. But yes, sir, we will
definitely have a standard as to what we want to do.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, well that's a bold and reasonable task for
you, but what we're dealing with right now is Lydgate, and I want to make sure
that when you get through this process of being operational in 60 days for half the
campground, we understand there is a standard.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Yes.
Council Chair Furfaro: And you're assuring me that will happen. The
other piece we had talked about and it came up in the communication here, when
you do rent the group campground, I had voiced my concern that I do not see
additional bathrooms being added in the CIP Plan. So we need to have an
understanding so that we don't overwhelm the other bath facilities that do exist,
that some burden on a porta potty is put on those that are renting the campground,
so that we don't overwhelm the park because we know that over these long holidays
that is probably when the teams themselves are going to require the benefit and the
certainly economics of being able to camp as a little league baseball team or a soccer
team or so forth that there needs to have to be an understanding in an amendment
for everyone that leases those campgrounds until the fact that we can meet the
fairly flexible schedule that the state has set aside for toilets. And I want to make
sure that you understand that that's very contingent on my support to get this out
of the full council today that we will have an amendment that requires the
campground to have porta - potties for those campers that are in the group area.
And the third point that I want to make out, Lenny, is I visited the site
three times in the last two weeks and we built a ranger station for the purpose of
having quality control there, and again I re- emphasize the fact that I supported the
additional ranger because someone is going to make these park inspections for
repair and maintenance that I just gave you as well as being able to have a
coordinated effort. To have a quality experience down there, you need someone who
can actually manage the events that are there and I didn't add an extra ranger in
my book to just have additional people patrolling the island. I think this is a first
step for Lydgate and I just want to re- emphasize my perception of what I voted for.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, I will go to other members here. Mr. Chang
seems to have something he wants to share with you.
COUNCIL MEETING -73- September 7, 2011
Mr. Chang: Thank you, Chairman. Lenny, thanks for being
here this afternoon. In the. conversation of the rangers, on page no. 2, question 6, d)
what are the work shifts, and you say the park rangers work in two shifts from
4:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. and from 2 p.m. to 10 p.m., and of course you have a
supervisor and a parks permit security officer. I guess when I first looked at this I
had a little bit of a concern because from 10:30 p.m. till 4:30 a.m. it's basically not
staffed and I would maybe be wrong to assume but I would think if there'd be any
kind of problem it might be late night or after 12 midnight, at 1 or 2, what have you.
Were there ever any discussions since we wanted to add another ranger about doing
maybe a 6 a.m. to 2 p.m., 2 p.m. to 10 p.m., and 10 p.m. to 6 a.m.?
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: No, there were no discussions regarding that type
of schedule. But with the manpower that the five current rangers that we have,
these were the traditional shifts that were set up when they first had the park
rangers.
Mr. Chang: So would that be something that we might, I don't
know, maybe want to explore because like I said the first thing that pops up into my
mind is after 10 p.m. till early morning 4:30 a.m., we have actually no ranger on
staff.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Correct.
Mr. Chang: Okay, so I just thought I'd throw that out because
one of the concerns for many people, including myself and councilmembers and the
testimonies we had from the public that, of course, safety is one of the issues that
we have been talking about ever since we were talking about these camping issues.
So I just thought I'd throw that out because that could be a big plus as far as safety
is concerned. So I just wanted to throw that out for the record to you, Lenny.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Ten to six, right?
Mr. Chang: Yes, thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Any additional questions for Mr. Rapozo here?
Mr. Kuali`i.
Mr. Kuali`i: Aloha and mahalo, Lenny. My one first question
and I believe at the last meeting, committee meeting, where I wasn't able to be in
attendance there was a response as far as the geographic boundaries and so it was
established where exactly the campgrounds are. And this is probably the biggest
concern for me as far as what the people have been used to, being able to fish and
utilize the area without having to have a permit because they're not technically
camping, the need for the camping permit is for the pod that's designated. So there
are many areas throughout the campgrounds in- between pods and where there's
access to the ocean and where fishermen can still back up their truck and still fish,
if they're not on a ... or is the entire campground now designated as off limits to
fishermen. There are plenty other places to fish so you go fish there. And if you're
found doing it in the campground area, is that a violation? Basically my question
about currently there are no rules regarding overnight fishing, I mean about the
overnight fishing, you said that this wouldn't exempt them. That, to me, means
they're no longer allowed to go anywhere within the campground areas, which is
kind of an extensive coastal area and I think it's where I've seen a lot of— family
too — people go and back up their trucks. So can they or can't they? One of my
problems with all of this is there's things in writing and then there's things that are
being said that oh, but you know, it's up to a $100 fine, but we're not going to really
COUNCIL MEETING -74- September 7, 2011
charge them that, and we don't really say it's exempt to fishermen but we're going
to allow them to fish. I mean these kinds of things will impact our people on a day -
to -day basis, and from what I hear you say, it sounds good but what's really going to
happen? What's the rule?
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: You know at the last meeting that I wasn't able to
attend as well, we were asked to provide metes and bounds. I think that was after
the last committee meeting and we did that. The intent of this ordinance is the
Lydgate campground area, which was the metes and bounds that I think this body
asked us to provide a description of. I don't have that with me but I know the staff
did do that. So within those metes and bounds, whatever is decided on in this
ordinance would be adhered to. When I say that people that are fishing and
camping now, currently there are fishermen that are going on the beach, that
reverse abut to this area. They're doing it now. Those are the people... that's not a
camping area, that's not what, I believe, this question was asking about. The intent
wasn't to go there and to take these people out. We should allow them to fish. The
intent is to manage the campground area that was delineated as the Lydgate Camp
Ground site, so they can continue and we will manage the area in which...
Mr. Kuali`i: Now, you're saying manage the area and you're
drawing a little box. So do you mean the campsite because there are little boxes all
over...
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: The Lydgate Campground.
Mr. Kuah'i: But there's plenty other area that is not a box
where you can put your tent in.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: The Lydgate Campground area.
Mr. Kuali`i: So the entire...
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Where the Lydgate Campground was asked to be
put. That's where we're going to manage.
Mr. Kuali`i: I'm really confused because I just heard you say it
was not intended to exclude the fishermen from going in that area, but it is.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: The area, yes, in the Lydgate Campground area.
Mr. Kuali`i: Okay, well I just have to say that you're taking
away a valuable area that many people use and I don't support that.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: As I said earlier we will not ask the fishermen not
to go and fish, and they can come get a permit if they want to go and fish and go
camp there. They can come get a permit. They can camp. They can go fish. But if
they are traditionally fishing now on the beach, that's what I take it that the
question was asked of me, we're not going to stop them from that.
Mr. Kuali`i: But if to get to the beach, you have to go through
the campsite area, and if you're not doing... erecting a tent or creating a temporary
sleeping quarters, then you're not going to define that as camping. But if they back
their truck up right next to one of those square boxes, which is in the campgrounds
metes and bounds area, is that allowable or not?
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Based on the ordinance, it's not allowable.
COUNCIL MEETING -75- September 7, 2011
Mr. Kuali`i: I just kind of heard you say it both ways. The way
my question was answered, you didn't say ... you're not saying, yes, they're exempt,
they can back up their trucks and if they wanted to have a tent, then they just need
to have a permit.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: What I am saying is the campground area, as
provided in the ordinance, will be managed and restricted. It's about campsite
camping within that area, a particular site.
Mr. Kuali`i: Allowing fishing or not?
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: You can fish.
Mr. Kuali`i: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay let's be real clear here with our terminology.
There is the campgrounds, which encompasses the boundaries that were provided to
US.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Yes.
Council Chair Furfaro: And there is the campsite with its use, which comes
with a fee.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Yes.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay. Mr. Rapozo.
Mr. Rapozo: Lenny, you mentioned metes and bounds. You said
your staff did do the actual metes and bounds?
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Yes.
Mr. Rapozo: And so there's a...
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: After a committee meeting that I did not attend, I
was taking my daughter back to school, that was one of the requests.
Mr. Rapozo: Right, that was my request and I saw this. But
was there actually metes and bounds done?
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Yeah, I believe we did do that. I remember doing it
in my office.
Mr. Rapozo: Okay and then if it's ... we don't have it. That needs
to be attached to the bill for one thing. I mean it needs to be defined more than a
dotted line on the map because that is obviously not going to hold up in court should
you prosecute. So my request was to have that area delineated by metes and
bounds, in other words, having it surveyed.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: In my, I believe my deputy director who attended
that meeting, and when I came back I believe he did do that.
Mr. Rapozo: Do we know if... did we receive...
COUNCIL MEETING -76- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: Lenny, I just want to share with you, checking with
the committee chairman if he had the metes and bounds description, longitude,
latitude, north, we don't have it.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: I apologize.
Council Chair Furfaro: Now, if the county surveyor had in fact completed
that work, we wanted that to be part of this description, and I will defer to
Mr. Bynum, whose committee this is if we have the actual narrative that
Mr. Rapozo is referring to. Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Subsequent to the question, the county attorney
and the parks department worked on a map, incorporated it as part of the
ordinance, and the testimony from the county attorney was that this is sufficient to
meet our legal requirements. So I'm going to trust that.
Mr. Rapozo: Okay.
Mr. Bynum: If you want to talk about latitude and longitude
and surveying, I doubt it and I don't ... but the question to the county attorney was is
this sufficient to meet our legal needs and they're the ones that worked it up, so...
Mr. Rapozo: Well, the county attorney doesn't vote on the
ordinance, I do and I asked for metes and bounds, and I know enough of the
criminal side of law enforcement that when you sit up on the stand and you get
asked the question, can you tell me exactly where the offense occurred, is that in the
boundary of Lydgate? Yeah, yeah, here, here, look at the dotted line, look at the
dotted line. It's not sufficient for criminal prosecution.
Council Chair Furfaro: The point is well taken here. Let me say that for
the body, we have an in -house surveyor. We are looking for the park to be surveyed
with metes and bounds, okay. Now the county attorney feels, through Mr. Bynum's
committee, that the map is sufficient, but within the next 60 days, it wouldn't be to
our disadvantage if we didn't take a survey with metes and bounds. Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: I think we're opening a big can of worms here if
we're not going to trust the county attorney and the parks department to give us
clear answers. Do we have metes and bounds of every single county facility because
we have a law that says you can't drink in the parks at night. So it's going to apply
to every neighborhood park, every single park in the county. The scenario
Mr. Rapozo just said, oh, were you in the park or not? Show me the metes and
bounds. I'm okay with Lenny's answer and with my experience at Lydgate Park
that our law enforcement people, whether they're park rangers or police officers use
their discretion all of the time. I don't think we have a big problem about harassing
fishermen who are fishing. This came up when we did the liquor thing. Oh, are we
going to tell Uncle Joe, who's sitting there late at night having a beer, while he's
drinking, are we going to be going out and busting him? Police officers use their
discretion. They're not going to go bust Uncle Joe, who's sitting there on the beach
fishing. So I think we're getting pretty detailed in an area that I'm not sure we
want to go because I'm going to expand the question. Do we have metes and bounds
of every park so we can meet the legal requirement? We asked the question of our
attorneys and our parks department. They came back and they gave us an answer,
COUNCIL MEETING -77- September 7, 2011
and I'm not going to personally try to second guess that. All of these issues have
existed at our current campgrounds in our current ordinances and we haven't run
into significant problems. So I think if you're opposed to camping at Lydgate Park,
don't vote for this bill, right? But don't, in my opinion, try to micromanage and
microfine every little nuance, that's my opinion.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, your opinion is so noted. Lenny, you know
the value of kokua? Okay, this is my committee. Kokua me please, get me a survey
for Lydgate.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Definitely.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, and let me also go on the record. Every asset
that the County of Kauai has that we carry on our books, should have a description
of the land we own. So can you kokua me?
Mr. Lenny Rapozo:
Council Chair Furfaro:
Mr. Lenny Rapozo:
Council Chair Furfaro:
I can kokua you of the campgrounds, correct.
Thank you, yes, on the campgrounds.
Definitely.
Okay, Mr. Rapozo.
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you, I believe, I did have the floor as well,
but let me just...
Council Chair Furfaro: I hope you don't mind me clarifying the value here.
Mr. Rapozo: No, I wanted to ask the question. All of our parks,
and this is right in line with what you just said, Lenny, all of the parks have metes
and bounds.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Correct.
Mr. Rapozo: This is unique because you're designating an area
within a park. So please, Mr. Bynum, do not say I'm nitpicking and I'm doing that.
This is not your typical situation. This is unique. We're identifying a section within
a park.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Correct.
Mr. Rapozo: So there are no metes and bounds currently to
define the area that we want to enforce. Now, I mean I would disagree with the
county attorney if he says that we don't need to clearly define the boundary. I
would disagree with that, but that's his call. At the end of the day I still vote if I
feel it's a legally sufficient bill and I don't think it's too much to ask, but I hope that
our parks aren't sitting out there without metes and bounds. Every single park on
this island, including Lydgate and Wailua, all of these parks have metes and
bounds, correct?
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Definitely.
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you very much and since this is my meeting,
will you excuse yourself from the stand? Would the county attorney please come up
and let's move on from this item?
COUNCIL MEETING -78- September 7, 2011
Al, I'll just ask two questions, if you can. We need to move on here. First of
all, any land assets that the county has, we do have legal descriptions of those
assets?
ALFRED B. CASTILLO, JR., County Attorney: Yes. Good afternoon, Council
Chair, Councilmembers, for the record Al Castillo, county attorney. The answer to
that is yes and I can further expound on the question or the issue that's being
tossed around at this point in time.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay and the next question I want to say, if we
request the campgrounds be surveyed, we do have an in-house ... the in -house
capabilities of doing a survey?
Mr. Castillo: Yes, we do have that capability and that capacity.
However, I guess the first thing that I'd like to add is that the question that was
posed with the county attorney's office and the answers that were given, the county
attorney's office did not particularly say that we do not need to clearly define any of
the boundaries. In looking at the designated camping area boundary, the question
that was posed to me was one of enforcement and coming from my 15 years as being
a prosecutor and 12 years as a defense counsel, I looked at this map and basically
the first thing that comes to mind is not necessarily... it is not material that there be
a boundary assessment or metes and bounds. What's important is and what is
material to the issue is whether or not the individual had notice that the area in
which he is entering into is a designated area, whatever that designation may be.
In this particular case here, what I required as the county attorney in looking at the
map is we need to designate which are is the camping grounds. So if there is
adequate notice at that particular site, then if the person is within the camping
ground, then that person would be subject to the requirements of what we're trying
to do here, of the rules. So basically, you can have metes and bounds, but if you
don't know and you have not been adequately informed that this is an area, that is
your out. So, to me, it is of notice. Notice is required of trespassing, notice is
required as far as illegal camping area and that's basically the analysis, the legal
analysis.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, I'm going to pose this other question back to
you. I would like to have some kokua in having the survey done and I would also
like to have kokua from your office. Please tell us what the signage should say.
Mr. Castillo: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: What is the legal statement of the trespassing
policy. Obviously...
Mr. Castillo: Either trespassing policy or the policy that says
within this area, you are required to abide by the county rules and regulations.
Council Chair Furfaro: Sounds like you've caught the drift of my question.
Mr. Castillo: Yes.
Council Chair Furfaro: And I'd appreciate if you could pursue the verbiage
within the 60 -day period before we implement this.
Mr. Castillo: Okay.
COUNCIL MEETING -79- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro:
question for you.
Thank you very much. I think Mr. Bynum has a
Mr. Bynum: This isn't the first county park that allows
camping. Lucy Wright allows camping. Salt Pond allows camping. Ha'ena Beach
Park allows camping. 'Anini, Hanama'ulu, they're mixed use facilities. Have we
had a problem with enforcing the camping ordinance at those campgrounds and
why do we need to go to this extraordinary length for this particular campground?
Again, our law enforcement people use discretion and so it's been illegal to camp
without a permit at all of these parks, right? And we've dealt with it for all of these
years. I haven't heard that this has been a serious difficulty, that we're out busting
fishermen for not having camping permits and so I mean I just wish we wouldn't get
so meticulous here that we don't see the forest through the trees.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Al, let's close it there.
Mr. Castillo: Yes and I...
Council Chair Furfaro:
Mr. Bynum:
Council Chair Furfaro:
Mr. Bynum: -
Council Chair Furfaro:
Mr. Castillo:
That's his wish.
I have a question.
And my wish is to have...
Do we need to do this at every park?
Excuse me and I wish is we start with Lydgate.
Okay, thank you.
Mr. Bynum: My wish is to keep the floor when I have it and
have my questions respected. I asked a question, do we need to do this at Lydgate
Park, in your opinion?
Mr. Castillo: Council Chair, I have two questions actually from
Mr. Bynum. One was...
Council Chair Furfaro: I didn't take the floor away from Mr. Bynum. I
wanted to make sure you understood my request.
Mr. Castillo: Yes.
Council Chair Furfaro: Under my request for kokua.
Mr. Castillo: Yes, understood.
Council Chair Furfaro: Let's first understand kokua. I would like it to be
done if it satisfies this council that we can move on. Now, the other flip side of this,
if Mr. Bynum would like to have this sent back to his committee, he's more than
welcome. But Mr. Bynum took this out of his committee and asked to come to the
full council. I am trying to facilitate the end results here. Now, Mr. Bynum has the
floor. Do you understand what I'm asking for, for kokua?
Mr. Castillo: Yes.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you.
COUNCIL MEETING -80- September 7, 2011
Mr. Bynum:
I think now I have the floor again.
Mr. Castillo: Now that you have the floor, I remember two
questions. The first one was the past and I can only answer you from the time that
I started with the county attorney's office. I am not aware of any so- called problems
and within the definition of what problems may be. But that has not been referred
to myself and your second question was...
Mr. Bynum: The question is in your opinion, do we need this
level of detail in order to effectively enforce the camping ordinance?
Mr. Castillo: That would be outside the realm of what I should
be doing here because you are the legislative ... I can answer you in terms of what I
see is legally sufficient in terms of enforcing this ordinance or new rules and
regulations.
Mr. Bynum: So then you would stand by what the county
attorney's office said (inaudible) that the amendment that we did last time is
sufficient.
Mr. Castillo: I did not say that we do not need to clearly define
boundaries. I said we need to clearly notify people as to where the boundaries are.
Mr. Bynum: Okay, so will we need to do similar things for all of
the other parks I mentioned?
Mr. Castillo: I don't ... we should ... I want to be consistent and
just working on Lydgate right now, which is relevant to the issue and relevant to
the agenda. Thank you.
Mr. Bynum:
Thanks.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Attorney, I appreciate your coming up, but
please I'll send over a written request. I'd like to see the verbiage on the signs that
we will post for the campgrounds.
Mr. Castillo: Excuse me, Council Chair, I don't know how far we
are regarding all of the rules and regulations, and based on the completion of those
rules, that is the time we will be tailoring what the notice will read like. So I
cannot...
Council Chair Furfaro: That satisfies me.
Mr. Castillo: Is that okay?
Council Chair Furfaro: That satisfies me. I just want to make sure that
the request for the appropriate signage is in your corner as they work on the rules.
Mr. Castillo:
Okay, understood.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. No other questions. Lenny, can you
come back up? I believe you see the request that we've made as you work on the
rules. So if you can just make a note of it, I'd appreciate it.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Yes, will do.
COUNCIL MEETING -81- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: Especially in some of the concerns that came up.
There's nothing wrong with us stepping forward to do a little bit more due diligence
on our part. So I'll send over the request for the campsite survey description.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Sure.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, any other questions here?
Mr. Rapozo: Two more. I just want to clarify. Lenny, there is
no plans right now to hire additional workers for Lydgate? You're going to open up
the 16 campsites, the ADA campsites, and determine from there the needs of the
park?
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Yeah, the ADA campsites are included in the total
numbers, yeah.
Mr. Rapozo: And the same with the restroom that at this point
you guys feel that it's adequate for the use of that park.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: I have to believe so because when the campground
was first constructed that was the infrastructure that was put in, but I think by
opening up just a fraction of all campsites, we'll get a better idea as to what impacts
will be and if there is a need for further facilities, then why would we not want to do
that? And there are places that I think we could.
Mr. Rapozo: Okay, thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Any more questions of Mr. Rapozo? Anyone else?
Mr. Kuali`i.
Mr. Kuali`i: Just piggy backing on that question regarding
staffing. I just have to say I have a different philosophy, I guess, and to open the
campgrounds, add all this additional work, and wait and see how it goes, and see
whether they can handle it or not, it's almost like saying, they have all this extra
free time, that the work that they're doing now doesn't occupy their full time. So
why has that been allowed for all this time? I think they're all working hard
keeping the park in tip -top shape so that the residents and visitors can enjoy them.
And when you add more work, they're not going to be able to keep up and that's how
we're going to find out, by failing. So let's fail first and then add the staff to
succeed. And what kind of service will we be providing when we fail? When the
citizens come to us and say ... I mean they already come to us saying, complaining
about toilets not being kept up and what have you. We're setting ourselves up for
failure when you say, let's see how it goes. I just disagree with that philosophy in
general.
But back to this whole thing about...there's three different questions and
they all tie together. The fishermen, the sleeping in cars, and technically what's
camping and what's not, whether you erect a tent or create temporary sleeping
quarters. Yet if they fall asleep in their car that is sleeping quarters, I guess, and
the fine for not having a permit is $100.00. But the fine for a first violation of
sleeping in your car is $200.00. You know, I totally take offense to Councilmember
Bynum talking about being too meticulous and level of detail. You know, my style
of serving the people is to pay attention to the details. And to criticize that is wrong
and it's not in the interest of how we work together and how we serve the people.
Sorry, I got off there. But this is not resolved if this is all conflicting, you know.
COUNCIL MEETING -82- September 7, 2011
And I still think and I may want to put an amendment together myself to protect
the users of the property, like fishermen, and it could even be stargazers. I mean
we just recently had some kind of comet or something that was happening and I
went with a bunch of friends to Lydgate to that very area and we stayed there to the
wee hours of the morning looking for the comet of whatever. It was overcast, so we
didn't see it. But we were not camping and we were directly in the area of where
the camping is and one of the problems I think is that these sites were put right
there along the ocean. So that's really nice and all, but what you have is you have
crowding situation. So if a fisherman backs his truck up right there where there is
an area that a square isn't, but there's a square right next to it and a camper, even
a visitor, has their permit. They feel they're entitled to the peace and quiet and
serenity of a beautiful starlit night and the fishermen is right next to them and
we're just not anticipating. Just because there wasn't problems in the past and
there wouldn't be in a place like `Anini or Hanalei where you can spread out. But
here in these campgrounds, the way it's laid out right along the path, the way those
pods are, you can see it. If you go fishing, if you go stargazing, if you participated in
that way recently, you can see the vacant campsite right next to you. In the future
when the campgrounds is open, it's not going to be vacant, and you might have
people there who feel they're entitled to that because they paid for it. So they're
going to be upset with the fishermen. So whether you wouldn't bother the
fishermen or not, they're going to require you to bother the fishermen because they
paid for their permit. I mean these are just things that just hasn't been thought
through and maybe it is too small and too crowded. So just come out and admit it
then if you're not going to allow the fishermen to be in that area, then be clear about
it. But I disagree, I oppose that.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Can I have a chance now?
Council Chair Furfaro: Yes, why don't you try and answer that.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Sure. I was writing down everything that he
attempted to say and yes, Councilmember Kuah'i, you can disagree and that is fine
and I know you said that you have your community to serve. But as an
administrator, I also have the responsibility to the taxpayers to serve them as best
as I feel that it needs to be managed. Number one, we looked at the staffing, we
looked at position descriptions, we looked at how they differ from other positions.
The campgrounds was never opened. Yes, maybe soccer fields /sport fields weren't
envisioned there, but in these position descriptions, it specifically mentions the
campgrounds. It specifically mentions the path. It specifically mentions the
current needs to be done. Then they added another position on or about when the
sport fields came about. And yes, it may be too much and maybe that's why we are
opening not all the campgrounds at one point. But how do I justify to the people
that hopefully I am managing their taxpayer dollars, mine, yours, and everybody
else. Who wouldn't want? But I think we owe that responsibility or I feel I owe that
responsibility, yeah? It'd be very easy for me to come up here and say this is what
we need and we just take, take, take, but I don't think that is my responsibility. I
think my responsibility is to best manage as what I see fit and then take all of your
comments and try to work it. And if we do need more, yes, we will definitely come
here with the justification as to why we need more. But the way that it's currently
written with the amount of staffing and what the work that has taken place before
you and I had come into this realm of government, I have to believe that they did
the due diligence. Some of these people who have sat here today were there back
then. They've done their due diligence and it was worked out. Maybe it won't be
perfect, but we will deal and we'll come up with it.
COUNCIL MEETING -83- September 7, 2011
Now in terms of ordinances and camping and sleeping in your car, that's not
for me to decide. And maybe you did go off track, I'll give you that. That's
something that is already in the books. That's something in the books and those are
tools to address people that are sleeping in their cars that are homeless, to give
tools for us to deal with that type of behavior, that's the tools that are there. The
intent is not for what I believe you are trying to mention.
Now in terms of talking about bathrooms. Yes, sometimes they are dirty and
there are people out there now who can appreciate some of the work that our people
do. We do not have bathroom attendants. We have park caretakers. They go, they
clean, they do other things. People come and they mess the place up and we go back
and we clean again. But we do not go back regularly or on the hour or whatever you
may think that we need to do because that is not their function. But we do the best
and they do the best that we can. And I'll tell you on a situation recently where we
got a call and there was a dangerous situation in one of the bathrooms. I'll be very
clear, Wailua Houselots Park this weekend. Afterhours someone went in there and
put soap all over the bathroom floors. That's a safety issue. And I made the call to
get one of our caretakers, whoever was willing to do the overtime and there is a
process, we went through the process, because someone was going to walk in that
bathroom and they were going to slip and they were going to fall; it posed a liability.
So we paid overtime of taxpayers' money to go and address those issues. I too go to
the beach and I want sit on a nice clean bathroom as best as we can and we all want
to do that. But there are challenges out in the community that we face day in and
day out. And those are the type of challenges that I look at and have to make calls
that I feel are proper. So we do what we need to do and the workers do try and
upkeep and the workers do tolerate their director when I ask them, can you go back
and check this bathroom because I'm getting calls. And we do try and we even try
preventive measures or proactive measures. On long weekends, we have porta
potties at Black Pot. We ask for an additional cleaning service to hopefully alleviate
because our UPW workers will not clean those things. That's not within their job
description. We pay for the service. But that's an additional service to come out on
a Sunday. We look at when the thing is going to begin on Friday, we can get
through Saturday, so we ask for service on Sunday, get through all day Sunday and
Monday is the holiday. By that time hopefully people are going to go home and then
we do that. We try to do and we try to serve. But again, you may disagree and I
disagree with what you're thinking, but that's fine. But by all means we do what
we believe is best, okay. Thank you very much.
(Inaudible.)
Council Chair Furfaro: Let me remind all of us that we're negotiating
through this, but let's make sure that we can settle differences of opinion with
minimum challenges here, folks. We want to get to the right place on this thing, so
let's just keep that in mind so we don't damage any relationships amongst ourselves
and/or personnel in the county who are going to work through this. Mr. Bynum, you
have the floor.
Mr. Bynum: Thank you. Thanks for your comments, Lenny, and
I expressed an opinion that I don't think we have a serious problem of busting
fishermen in our parks. And if Mr. Kuali`i takes offense to that, I apologize. But I
take offense to the idea that this wasn't thought out. This is eight to ten years in
the making, okay. So I want to take a minute and I think you're aware of most of
this that there's camping at Lydgate Park because the people of Kauai were asked,
what would you like for facilities at Lydgate Park. There was a master plan process
that went through and the people of Kaua`i... and I was a volunteer in those days
and I went to the Farm Bureau Fair and set up a booth and the Friends of
COUNCIL MEETING -84- September 7, 2011
Kamalani said, we want to engage the community about the future of Lydgate Park.
And the community said we'd like to honor this plan for a bike path that came out
because it goes right through Lydgate. We'd like additional recreational space
because at that time Lydgate was restricted to the large pond, the field behind, and
the big pavilion, and the area where the playground is and the area that we're
discussing today was overgrown and trashed even though it was Lydgate Park. The
people said they would like campgrounds, that they would like a site campground
that they had experienced in other places. And we hired consultants and we built a
bathroom that's adequate to meet the needs of that space, more than adequate.
And we set up these concepts. We had multiple meetings with fishermen because
the people at Kahalani said, hey, we want you to get rid of those guys driving their
trucks in front of our condominiums. And we said, no, those are fishermen and they
whip at this point and we met with fishermen and we said, where is it that's the
most important for you to fish, where is it that you want to park. And we told the
people at Kahalani, you know what, we're going to have our fishermen and we now
today have a fishermen access and a long stretch of coastline where they can park
their truck right on the shoreline and fish. Now we also designated a camping area.
Fishermen are free to camp, to fish in front of that camping area on the beach in the
state's jurisdiction. But yeah, I think we're going to say, hey, these campsites, I got
a permit for this campsite, we set this site apart, and I don't think fishermen expect
to drive their truck into somebody's campsite because they've done it before. You
know, we established these things. This stuff was well thought out and it's just the
ordinance, the campground that was built six years ago and an ordinance that
started six years ago. So I think I've been pretty patient and the community's been
very patient. Now the administration is ready to open this campground. The
bathrooms are adequate. The county attorney came here and said, hey, putting this
map in here is adequate. You want to do the metes and bounds? Fine, right. But
I'll stand by my comments before. We have a bunch of reasonable county officials, a
bunch of reasonable cops, some really great park rangers, really great caretakers,
and people work these things out. But we don't say, oh, because 10 years ago I
could park my truck right here and now you've made it a campsite and I don't want
to give up my right to park my truck on top of that campsite when there is a whole
stretch of coastline in Lydgate Park that the fishermen identified as their high
priority where they have that ability. We've accommodate that because this was a
thoughtful process. So I take offense at the idea that this council didn't do its due
diligence, isn't doing it as we speak, and that this process of creating these
facilities ... I don't think anybody would want to return Lydgate Park to the state it
was in 20 years ago. And I think the vast majority of people would agree that the
things that have changed at Lydgate Park are positive and that there's been
extraordinary measures to try to accommodate, and we find win -wins. The people
at Kahalani didn't get their wish to restrict public use of the beach in front of their
property, right, and they're happy today with the compromises we came up with. I
think the fishermen, anyone that I've talked to, are happy with the accommodations
we did because we did think it out, because we did go through a thoughtful process.
So we can go round and round, but I'll stick with what I said earlier. If you don't
want camping at Lydgate, vote against the ordinance. If you want camping, let's
have this due diligence and have this discussion, right. But in the long run, I trust
our county workers by and large to work it out. I trust our county attorney to give
us good guidance that's sufficient but not overkill. And so you're aware of this
history, Mr. Rapozo?
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: As best as I could research with the documents that
are available to me within our department.
COUNCIL MEETING -85- September 7, 2011
Mr. Bynum: And what is available to any councilmember here
are the draft master plan for Lydgate Park, the EAs that were done for Lydgate
Park, the transcripts of the council meetings we had before, the documents that
you've supplied us again, right. And so the notion that this wasn't thought out, I
don't think is accurate.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, we're going to go for a caption break in a
moment here. But Lenny, the real issue here is about managing vision and
purpose. The vision is to have camping and a lot of work has gone into this. And I
don't want anybody to feel that if we set a standard higher than past practices,
that's not a bad thing, that's a good thing, and therefore I would like to have the
camping area surveyed. Yes, it's a new standard, but it's a suggestion and let's all
kind of respect each other's suggestion and also it's an experiment, okay.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: And I'm going to kokua you, Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: And you're going to kokua me.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Yes.
Council Chair Furfaro: What I'm going to do is I'm going to give my copies
here because Councilmember Kuali`i did in fact raise some interesting concerns and
comment as we go forward to do the appropriate due diligence and so I'm going to
give him my copy of the Lydgate Master Plan as well as the specifics on the
campground and hopefully we'll keep moving here. But I think the main thing we
do right now is take the scheduled caption break for 10 minutes. We're on a caption
break.
There being no objection, the meeting was recessed 3:57 p.m.
The meeting was called back to order at 4:08 p.m., and proceeded as follows:
There being no objection, the rules were suspended.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, we are back here and Lenny, I'm thinking
that we want to move forward to actually take a vote on this item. I would
encourage councilmembers who don't want to support it to vote no, those that do to
vote yes, simple as that. I think we've had enough discussion. I also would like to
say that I believe we have a motion on the floor. Okay, so we have a motion on the
floor to approve. I believe we have an amendment yet to come, but I need to take
public comment before we go to that.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Am I done, sir.
Council Chair Furfaro: You're good.
Mr. Lenny Rapozo: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay. Is there anyone in the public that would like
to testify on this? Mr. Mickens, please come up.
GLENN MICKENS: Thank you, Jay, for the record Glenn Mickens.
First I wanted to say I really appreciate KipuKai's proactive stance on opening
these campgrounds. You know, don't wait for an accident to happen and then say it
could have been prevented if we would have done something up front. So I really
appreciate that. And I looked at the copy of the Virginia Beach thing you put out,
COUNCIL MEETING -86- September 7, 2011
Jay. That's excellent. It's got a sheet in there, I guess the workers can go ahead
and put down stuff, but again it's going to take supervisors some place to be able to
turn this into it to be able to do something. But you have a copy of my testimony.
Let me read it for the public's view, please. Some of these questions have been
answered. Many questions still remain before these campgrounds are opened.
What mystifies me is why the urgency to open this area to camping and the
people I keep on talking to, they don't really want to have their kids go down there
where, as Joe Rosa pointed out, there's very little ... no lighting. It's a dangerous
area. It's not someplace you'd want to take your kids to to camp. Some of the
problems, which you brought up before, more security problems, drug and alcohol
abuse. It was 20 years ago that there was a murder down there and they closed the
campgrounds. What's changed today to make it any different? It's probably the
problem is worse than it was then. Problems that KipuKai brought up, again, about
the fishermen; toilet facilities that you addressed, Jay; union rules possibly needing
two more caretakers and Leilani may be able to answer those, and the lighting
down there where it's dangerously dark. And why won't those who are pushing to
get these grounds open addressing the closing of those 20 years ago due to drugs
and murder. I hear nobody. Tim, you don't ever want to address that issue? I
know it was done because Joe Rosa knew about it and all kinds of people have told
me this, and they were closed at that time. And I can't see the situation getting any
better.
Lydgate Park is not a world class facility by any stretch of the imagination.
Maybe it doesn't have to be up to our hotel standards, but it can certainly be
maintained better than it is now. A neutral organization, the League of Women
Voters classified it with a C- rating years ago and even though the workers do their
jobs and I know those workers down there, the supervisors do not have the
expertise nor the equipment to make the improvements needed. That's why I think
Jay's thing from Virginia Beach will go a long ways if we can take the page out of
their success book. And with the major goof by those who dredged Lydgate Pond
without finding out if there was sand under the dredged sand, the finest, safest
swimming and snorkeling area on Kauai has become a mud hole.
Council Chair Furfaro: Glenn, that was three minutes. You have an
additional three minutes.
Mr. Mickens: I'm almost done, Jay.... degrading the park even
more. And again, I don't know who was responsible for doing that, but Dickie, you
said you went down there and you walked up to your knees in mud. I don't know
that that sand will ever come back without replenishing with getting sand
someplace. But I think it's just criminal that somebody up front didn't take a core
sample of the place before they dredged the whole pond, put it 9 feet deep in certain
places there making it more dangerous for kids. It was 4 or 5 feet deep before, great
swimming area for everybody, but it was sandy. Before opening more areas that
will need maintenance, let's do something about what we have, about the parks and
recreation we have and make this truly the garden island. I think you guys know
this and Jay, you brought it up. You were good enough one time, Jay, when you
first came into office. We went down. I got you down there and we looked at the
lifeguard railings. They were supposed to be stainless steel. They were already
rusting after ... I don't know maybe after a month or two months. Maybe it was
stainless, but it wasn't good stainless and we just went over certain areas. But you
continually brought up that you're going to classify how good you want these places
kept. But Mel's pictures when he first came into office, showing all our parks and
recreation, they need help. So why are we even thinking about expanding
something down there that isn't needed. I keep on hearing hundreds or thousands
COUNCIL MEETING -87- September 7, 2011
of people are demanding that we open these campgrounds for kids. I haven't, the
people I've talked to haven't. Maybe you know different people than I do. But the
people I've talked to just said I wouldn't take my kids down there. I wouldn't feel
safe. For police and park rangers to come in there, you're going to call them, it
might take them an hour or two hours to come there. You showed the salary things
on there. I think it was 2000 something for the park rangers and 4000 for the police
entry. Well, it stands to reason those park rangers aren't going to endanger
themselves in a fight or something, take a chance at getting shot or knifed or
something. They say, let the police take care of this and I wouldn't blame them
because I wouldn't endanger my life either. Anyway, I think there's a lot to be done.
I do appreciate Chair Furfaro's diligence in getting this brought back to committee.
I think the committee would... a lot of facts and figures should be brought up about
before time to show exactly what can be done or what has to be done before further
opening. Thank you, Jay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Glenn, I do want to let you know that I do plan to
support this today, okay, on a partial opening. I also want to let you know that we
haven't forgotten the issue about the Lydgate Lagoon. It'll be back on the agenda as
we told public works in November. And also I do believe that we have to establish
some standards and that is why I brought the pieces out from the County of
Virginia Beach. I thought that would be a guideline for the department to be
working with the labor group as establishing expectations.
Mr. Mickens: Well, I think it's outstanding. I haven't read the
whole report, but the sheet that you've got that the workers can go ahead and make
notes on it and turn it in to say if a drinking fountain or toilet is backed up or
broken or something. Things would be taken care of, swings or whatever it happens
to be. I think obviously we don't have to reinvent the wheel; it's been done. I don't
know where you dug it up.
Council Chair Furfaro: Well, we have it for them for a start. But anyway,
Lydgate, I think, comes back November 17th, the lagoon. We gave them six months
and we're going to visit again.
Mr. Mickens: Is that council or committee meeting.
Council Chair Furfaro: That will be in a committee.
Mr. Mickens: Committee meeting, okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay.
Mr. Mickens: Thank you, Jay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Chang has a question for you.
Mr. Chang: Thank you, Glenn, for your testimony. Paragraph
4, you mentioned the League of Women Voters classified Lydgate Park years ago.
You know about what year was that that they had given the park a C -.
Mr. Mickens: Oh, Carol Bain was the president of the League of
Women Voters, I believe, at that time. I went to several of their meetings and they
had the input. They gave me the thing. Dickie, it's been eight, nine ... time goes so
fast.
COUNCIL MEETING -88- September 7, 2011
Mr. Chang: Are you aware of any, the most recent grade that
the League of Women Voters gave the park in most recent time?
Mr. Mickens: No, I don't believe they've ever reassessed their
evaluation of the parks at that time.
Mr. Chang: Okay and I just wanted to comment. I was there on
Monday. There was a function that some of us attended a golf tournament in honor
of our Filipino community, a fundraiser, and did take the time to walk around.
Being that this was a Monday on a busy Labor Day weekend, I guess Friday,
Saturday, Sunday or what have you, I have to say that I really felt that the park
was really nice considering there must have been hundreds, if not thousands, that
went through over the weekend. And I also had the opportunity to walk in the
Lydgate campgrounds yesterday and even though nobody is camping there, it's
obviously being maintained. So I just want to commend the staff and the workers
because I think on a very busy weekend I would say that I would give them way,
way above an average grade based on the fact that it was utilized big time over the
weekend. So I just think that if there might be a different poll at this particular
time, I'm sure that the grade would be a little higher.
Mr. Mickens: Well, when you talk about grade, we would be
talking about comparing it to something. I've been to Australia, I've been to France,
a few places and I'm overwhelmed by the beauty of the parks and recreation that I
saw there. Green irrigation systems, you don't see that down at Lydgate Park,
Dickie.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, we're going to leave that right at that if
you're not going to pose a question to Glenn. Glenn, thank you for your testimony.
Mr. Mickens: Thank you.
Mr. Chang: Thank you, Glenn.
Council Chair Furfaro: Anyone else wishes to testify on this item today?
Please come right up.
LEILANI MINDORO, UPW Kauai Division Director: Good afternoon, Chair
and Councilmembers. My name is Leilani Mindoro. I'm the division director for
Kauai Division for UPW. In regards to discussions with the county representatives,
I will tell you that since the last discussion we had prior to my last testimony here
at council, they have been few. However, we do have one scheduled for next week,
but in that 10- minute break that we just had, I was able to accomplish more in the
month from Mr. Rapozo. I appreciate what he has just provided to me, but on
behalf of the members, recently we just had our Kauai Island Labor Alliance picnic
and I again appreciate everybody's participation. But in the afternoon and I know I
saw JoAnn walking around and talking to one of our members and asking him, but
later in the afternoon probably about 4 o'clock before I left, I made a round and one
person on that busy Sunday afternoon. I felt really bad because he was busting his
okole and I asked him, did you take your break? He said no, I gotta do my work. So
they go above and beyond to make sure. That is not required of them. They also
told me that they... and this is new to me as well that they are doing an extension
from Lydgate , all of Wailua Beach and picking up the rubbish. So, you know, I was
trying to find out what the actual acreage of Lydgate is and what kind of standard
is being applied to that for manpower needs. I am working with Mr. Rapozo. We
are trying to take care of that because you cannot continue on a day -to -day basis
going above and beyond because what happens is you get burned out. And I've also
COUNCIL MEETING -89- September 7, 2011
spoken recently to a councilmember who told me that I know that the park is not at
the level of being taken care of of where it was before because it's too much for them
to do. So in regards to staffing, I know there needs to be more. The standard that
was provided to me was 10 acres per one person. I asked, I want to see where did
you get that figure. How can we work together to make sure that that's
accommodated and not overwork these guys. Yes, they are county employees and
they work hard. But they also have to work within the confines of their contract.
And it would be more costly if things aren't followed to the county by violating that
contract and so we are working, trying to work closely with Mr. Rapozo and his
department to ensure that those are done.
Mr. Nakamura: Three minutes, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Mindoro: But again, we do have concerns and we feel that in
a timely they're not being addressed. I thank Mr. Rapozo for today and being able
to get me the information I need, but it's taken over a month. We all have things to
do, I know that. But this is a very critical decision that you're making for the safety
and welfare of the community as well as for these employees that we represent. So
thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Leilani, thank you for your comments.
Mr. Mickens, Glenn, indicated that I used to be good and go with him to the park.
Well, I still go to the park just not with him. So I apologize, Glenn, but I do... and I
think Glenn took a look at it... shared the punch list of the Virginia Beach
standards, an opportunity to have the maintenance people report things that need a
response. Again, I think we're in need of establishing a standard. I can tell you the
bulletin board by the rangers office, which is closed, is broken. It's been broken on
my last three visits there. I can tell you that the big fire pit that's by the
campground has never been emptied. It still has kiawe wood from a previous fire. I
do want to say though the screws for the tents in the campsites are being replaced.
But the reality is we need to, on a regular basis as management and supervisors,
look at the area with a critical eye and that takes training. So also in the packet
that I gave to Mr. Rapozo is some ideas about how to invest in supervisory training
for parks and recreation as well. So we can't mandate anything for staffing, but I do
want you to know, although I didn't do it with Glenn, I do know the shortcomings
there and I'm certainly open to hearing any discussions from parks that might talk
about adding some manpower there. I'm very open to that. Okay? Mr. Rapozo.
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Leilani, thanks for being here today. I
just have one question. Does your contract for those park caretakers, you don't
represent the park rangers, correct?
Ms. Mindoro: No.
Mr. Rapozo: But does your contract allow the county to require
the park caretakers to do duties of park enforcement?
Ms. Mindoro: Prior to my coming aboard and I believe it's even
before Mr. Rapozo, there was a consultation that was done and part of the
consultation included some kind of enforcement. I don't know what the actual
enforcement and that's what I've been trying to come up and determine because our
park caretakers are not law enforcement officers. So we need to really define what
their actual enforcement is included because if it's just a matter of checking to see if
there is a tag on the tent and then contacting the park rangers, I have no problem.
What I have a problem with is if they check it and they're required to go and say,
COUNCIL MEETING -90- September 7, 2011
you don't have a permit, you need to leave, and the next thing you know, they get
hit over the head, you know. It becomes a criminal... it's a safety issue. Some of our
guys are pretty big, but it doesn't ... we need to define the enforcement portion.
Mr. Rapozo: And to your knowledge today, you don't know if
that has occurred?
Ms. Mindoro: I do not know that those discussions were before
my time. I'm trying to get information. If the employer has anything that they can
provide to me, I have no problem with that.
Mr. Rapozo: But absent that kind of agreement, your current
contract, does it allow for that to happen?
Ms. Mindoro: They do no enforcement at all.
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Hi, Leilani. Thanks for being here today. Have
you seen the job descriptions for the caretakers that were revised a number of years
ago?
Ms. Mindoro: Yes, for the park caretakers. Yes, park
maintenance, not park caretakers, park maintenance. .
Mr. Bynum: Right, park caretakers, right?
Ms. Mindoro: There are park maintenance and ... can I get my
paper so I can tell you exactly what the description is?
Council Chair Furfaro: Your papers are coming up.
Ms. Mindoro: They are called park maintenance and service
worker I.
Mr. Bynum: Right. I just want to agree with your testimony
and I personally sat in meetings with —and this was some time ago and maybe it
should happen again, right —but with maintenance workers, the park rangers and
the police, all defining whose what roles they were because my understanding is the
maintenance workers might inform people about what the rules are, but they're not
enforcement people at all and they should understand that completely. And if those
meetings need to be redone, I strongly encourage the administration to do it because
like I said a lot of this work planning for these campgrounds happened a number of
years ago and then it got delayed and so we should revisit all of those things. But I
believe there was a ... I know there was a change in job description that included
provisions for informing people about and engaging at some level with the campers
there but not as enforcement people.
Ms. Mindoro: And what I've recently received and I'm sorry this
one is dated July 1, 2007 and I really haven't—the one that we had received prior
was 2003. So based on just getting this, I have not been able to look at it and really
depict whether or not there's a change from 2003, when it was initially negotiated,
COUNCIL MEETING -91- September 7, 2011
to this one that was just received. And I'm sorry we were doing interviews the last
two days, so I've not been able to review this to actually see if there's a difference in
the actual description from 2003 to 2007.
Mr. Bynum: But you met with Mr. Rapozo today and you have
another meeting set up?
Ms. Mindoro: Oh no, we didn't meet today. We had 10 minutes
right here in the break and that's when some discussion took place, but we do have
one set up for the 13th. So in the contract prior to, there's no enforcement... in the
position descriptions that were initially, there is some vague language that says
enforcement. But again, I wasn't in that discussion, nor, I believe, was Mr. Rapozo.
So really defining what enforcement is and putting our members at risk is real
important to ensure that they're not at risk.
Mr. Bynum: And I would agree with that 100 percent and I'd
encourage the administration to repeat what I've seen in the past that the rangers,
the police department, and the workers sit down so that they're all clear with one
another because I know that the intention was not that maintenance workers would
be enforcing that if a person asked a question about what the rules are, they could
share that with them. But that if there was any enforcement issues, that would go
to rangers and/or the police department. Thank you.
Ms. Mindoro: Can I just make one more statement, real short?
Council Chair Furfaro: Let me do this. Do you have a statement to add?
Ms. Mindoro: Yes, thank you, that the additional employee,
initially there were three. The additional employee came about with the bike path
or when the path came about. That's where that additional body came in. And that
was prior or somewhere around the same time that the soccer fields. My
understanding also is they are no longer going to, after this season, no longer use
the Kapahi Park area for soccer. Everything is going to be located at the soccer
complex, that's my understanding.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, that hasn't come to us yet. I do agree also
that the key word that we want from our employees that are assigned to different
parks are stewardship. We want them to be good stewards and not necessarily the
enforcement mechanism. Councilmember Kuah'i.
Mr. Kuali`i: Just a quick one following up because it was the
same question I had as far as the role between the park caretakers and the park
rangers. Currently if the park caretaker comes across any situation with a park
user, potentially violent or not, if they need to they should contact the park ranger
and/or KPD. I mean if it was more serious, they could bypass the park ranger and
go straight to KPD, correct? I mean is that all spelled out for them so that they
know what their responsibility is to the county? And then the other question is if
it's a part of their job to contact others, do they have a cell phone? I mean do we
provide them a way to get in touch with them or is there a pay phone? How do they
do that?
Ms. Mindoro: Again that may have been as part of a previous
discussion but our employees that are there have no idea.
Mr. Kuali`i: Right.
COUNCIL MEETING -92- September 7, 2011
Ms. Mindoro: That's the questions they're posing to us is how do
we make that contact? They don't get ... you're in peak minutes, so it's using their
cell phone, it's their dollars. There are no telephones down there.
Mr. Kuali`i: Just some basic process stuff that I have concerns
about too then.
Council Chair Furfaro: Well again, an item I would encourage you to add
into the discussion because we too want to enhance our people's management
oversight and I think the communication question is a good one, so I would
encourage you to have it with them. Okay, thank you very much. Members, I'm
going to call the meeting back to order.
There being no objections, the meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as
follows:
Council Chair Furfaro: I believe we have a motion and a second, but I
believe we also want to introduce an amendment from Mr. Chang. Mr. Chang.
Mr. Chang: Thank you, Chairman. I have a floor amendment
and this floor amendment is in regard to one of the concerns that some of us
brought up and this was in regards to the restrooms. So, if you look at number
eight: (8) A group camping permit includes exclusive use of the group camp
pavilion. For every 50 campers, the permit shall require the installation, at the
permitee's expense, of one portable toilet at the location designated on the map to be
issued with the permit. The permitee shall cause the removal of the portable toilet
when the permit expires. Now one of the concerns that I had from the get -go, of
course, was the restroom facilities and I do believe that according to the paperwork
that we had, the two toilets as far as the men's side is concerned, I believe the
women have four, was sufficient for that amount of area. However, I'm just
throwing this out at other councilmembers because for myself I think it would
relieve the pressure on the public restrooms and I think if you have campers that
are going to be in a designated area, I believe if that porta potty is set aside just for
them, people will tend to take better care of that area, better care of that one
facility. I think at certain times of the day, people kind of need to use the restroom,
especially if they're going to be campers. So I'm just throwing that out to the fellow
councilmembers and I think that this is something that would be very good for the
campers. I am aware and I was made aware that the porta potty costs about a
$100.00 a day for the porta potty, but if you break that down by 50 campers, that's
about $2.00 a day. So given the fact that if you're going to do group camping, I
believe for a weekend, it'll cost based on 50 campers and somebody can do the math,
but I came up with about $3.50 per person over the weekend. So I just wanted to
throw this out for you. I believe this would be good for the campers. It's something
convenient, something close to their camping facility, and again this will relieve
some of the pressure, if you will, on the public restroom facilities but also I just
think if you have a porta potty for the group and it's assigned to them and they are
responsible in paying for it, I think that the group would tend to take better care
and try to keep it as clean as possible because it is designated for their group.
Council Chair Furfaro: Dickie, I think the math works out to $4.00 for
campers of 50 and then you add their allocation of the $75.00 fee for the weekend,
it's $5.25 per person. Okay, let's see if we have a second for any discussion.
Ms. Yukimura: There's no second? I'll second the motion.
COUNCIL MEETING -93- September 7, 2011
Mr. Chang moved to amend Bill No. 2149, Draft 4, as shown in the Floor
Amendment attached hereto (Attachment No. 1), seconded by Ms. Yukimura.
Council Chair Furfaro: There's a second for discussion. Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: I want to talk about the planning again for Lydgate
Park. There was a master plan for the park and the request came from community
groups, church groups, soccer clubs, Boy Scouts, to have a group camping facility, a
designated area for group camping. There was lots of discussion with those groups
and part of that discussion was well if we just give a permit for this, people are
going to use it for a family party of 12 people or 15 people, and the intention was to
have this for community groups that were going to be fairly sizable, say above
30 people or so. And so fees in Lydgate Park were never intended to generate
revenue; they were management tools. And so the idea was there would be a $75
per night fee for this group campground that could be up to a maximum of
200 people. In discussion with all of those groups they said, hey, that would be
great to have a place that has a restroom immediately adjacent that has four stools,
showers, a pavilion that we can meet in, a fire ring to sing around the fire, and an
area designated for our tents. A typical weekend two nights, $150, that's not too big
of an obstacle. Now, I can't support this amendment for a couple of reasons. One is
we've heard this testimony over and over again that the restrooms there are
adequate for this need and that they're actually more than adequate. Let's put that
in context. At `Anini Beach we have a very large camping area that can serve
many, many people. There are two stools and two urinals for men and four stools
for women at `Anini Beach. I've camped at `Anini Beach many times and
occasionally I had to wait 30 or 40 seconds for the urinal, maybe 2 or 3 minutes for
one of the ... because they're separate, they're in separate facilities, but I didn't ever
consider them to be inadequate. I considered them to be sufficient. So let's say the
Boy Scouts are down there. They are willing to pay $150 to have say 100 kids there.
Under this amendment, they would have to come up with an additional $400. I just
looked on the internet here, it says Kauai Company, a porta potty is somewhere
between $100 and $200 a day per unit. So if they had 100 kids there, they would
have to get two porta potties. They put the porta potties presumably in the group
camp area near the pavilion. Well, the restrooms are right over there. Are you
going to go in that porta potty or are you going to walk over where there's a
restroom that has, if you're a man, two stools and two urinals or if you're a woman,
four... surrounded areas. I don't think this is necessary. I think those porta potties
will just sit there and it won't be used and it will cost this group $400 and if it were
200 people, it would be $800 rather than the $150. So I think that would be an
obstacle to these groups. Again, the only reason we charge fees in the first place
was so that... and we had lengthy discussion about this several years ago. What if a
company just wanted to use that for a company picnic and they didn't intend to
camp? Well, they would buy the permit and they would have use of the pavilion
and they would have paid if it was worth it to them and then nobody camped there,
but it was a community group using the facility. If it's the Boy Scouts, they're going
to want to camp there probably or if it's a soccer club or church group. But I don't
think it's necessary to charge them two $400 additional when the restrooms there
are adequate. Now, if we find that they're not as Lenny has said repeatedly, we're
going to do a soft opening, we're going to monitor this. If there's additional needs,
we will meet it. So for those reasons, I can't support this amendment.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, any further discussion? Yes, Mr. Rapozo.
Mr. Rapozo: I don't believe that this county charges any group
for portable toilets, whether it's a parade, it's a softball tournament. I mean it's a
service of the county. Obviously just a suggestion that we need to put portables is a
COUNCIL MEETING -94- September 7, 2011
suggestion that we don't have adequate number of toilets out there and I think that
is the real issue. Some may believe that it's adequate, I don't. I think to put the
cost of the toilet onto the county taxpayer and the $75 is for a resident; the non-
resident pays $150 a day. We have a visiting softball team, soccer team, you're
going to hit them with $150 plus even more for a toilet. I cannot support that
amendment. Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, I'm going to see if anybody else wants to
speak. Anybody else want to speak on this amendment? Yes, KipuKai.
Mr. Kuali`i: I think that this is an attempt to address the
shortage of bathroom facilities when we have heavy usage of the parks, not just the
campground but also the soccer fields too. But it's definitely ... porta potties don't
meet high standards as far as I'm concerned and if it was to be so, it would only be
temporary. I would think that it should only be temporary and that we should
move eventually to the place where the bathroom facilities at the campgrounds and
the other soccer fields should be expanded and not just remodeled to look better,
expand it to provide more facilities for more use.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you, Mr. KipuKai. Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Something I meant to say to begin with, we do have
restroom issues in parks and I've talked about this on this floor before. Years ago
when we had to become ADA compliant in all of our parks, the other counties said,
you know what, our restrooms are really old, this is an opportunity to build more
adequate and better facilities. What the County of Kauai did at Houselots Park, at
Kapa`a New Park, all over the county, they went to a restroom that had two stools,
they removed one, decreased the capacity by a 100 percent and had kind of a retrofit
of the bathrooms. At Kapa`a New Park, when the seniors were playing baseball,
there's one place for the men to either... because the other thing they did and the
women wouldn't know this, they had one stool and a urinal and they enclosed them
all into one enclosure so there was enough room for a wheelchair to get in there and
I've watch the seniors line up and wait a long time. I believe the restrooms at
Lydgate are adequate right now. I was just down there the last few weeks, my
grandson is playing soccer when all the soccer fields were in play and yes, people do
have to go about 40 yards, maybe 30, 40 yards to get to the bathroom, but I didn't
hear anybody upset or complaining about it. So if we're going to build new
restrooms ... I know Mel put on the same issue at Isenberg Park where his kids
played football and that was in the ... for how long was that in the thing and nobody
moved on it. So if we have restrooms priorities, mine would be other than this here.
I just wanted to say that there is a history, there are needs, but I think we have a
pretty good plan here. We open this, see how it goes. If it's clear that we need
additional restrooms facilities, I'll be the first one to say let's do it, but I'd also like
to do it at Kapa`a New Park and Houselots Park, those places where we diminished
the capacity in the past.
Council Chair Furfaro: Before I call on the vote for this, Mr. Rapozo,
Lenny, I really want you to hear this. This was before Mr. Bynum was on the
council. It wasn't Mr. Rapozo, it was Mr. Rapozo and Mr. Furfaro that wanted to
expand bathrooms at Isenberg. To date, nothing. Doesn't even appear on the radar
screen for the CIP. I want you to know that. This piece here we want to compare
cost. We charge a Little League Baseball team to come over and camp at our site
and so forth. They come back from a game, they all go to the bathroom at the same
time and so forth. This cost is equal to the sale of probably two additional
Portuguese sausage by each member to make sure they can pay for it.
COUNCIL MEETING -95- September 7, 2011
Ms. Yukimura: Probably more.
Council Chair Furfaro: Lenny, we would like to see some of these
improvements where necessary made. I'm going to support and I honor Mr. Chang's
attempt to make sure that we can accommodate a group, with them understanding
that for their own comfort it might be nice to have a couple portable potties when
they have more than 50 or 100 kids in the same campsite. But I've already heard
from a few people it may not get the support, but I want to recognize Mr. Chang for
the attempt. I'm just going to say right now as we go into next year's budget, I
know what's going to be high on my radar screen. It's called bath facilities for
campgrounds and senior areas for activities because we're missing the mark.
Mr. Chang, thank you for introducing it, but I'm going to call for a vote on his
amendment since we have a motion and a second, and we'll do it by roll call, please.
The motion to amend Bill No. 2149, Draft 4, as shown in the Floor
Amendment (see Attachment No. 1), was then put, and failed by the following vote:
FOR AMENDMENT: Chang, Kuali`i, Furfaro TOTAL — 3,
AGAINST AMENDMENT: Bynum, Nakamura, Rapozo, Yukimura, TOTAL — 4,
EXCUSED & NOT VOTING: None TOTAL — 0.
Mr. Nakamura: Three ayes, four noes.
Council Chair Furfaro: So the motion does not pass and I certainly don't
want to hear any confusion from the parks department about the campgrounds and
accommodating campers. Thank you very much. We're to the main motion.
Mr. Kuali`i:
Mr. Chair?
Council Chair Furfaro: Yes.
Mr. Kuali`i: I also have an amendment.
Council Chair Furfaro: Oh, you have an amendment? Go ahead, I'll give
you the floor.
Mr. Kuali`i: So my amendment is to Section 19.4 -4 which is
when permit required and time for issuance. My amendment is to add one sentence
to the first item (a) and that sentence would be "No permit shall be required for
overnight fishing or any other activity not otherwise prohibited by law."
Mr. Kuali`i moved to amend Bill No. 2149, Draft 4, as shown in the Floor
Amendment attached hereto (see Attachment No. 2), seconded by
Ms. Yukimura.
Council Chair Furfaro: Did I hear two seconds? I was looking straight.
One came from you, councilwoman?
Ms. Yukimura:
Council Chair Furfaro:
Mr. Rapozo:
Council Chair Furfaro:
Nakamura.
Yes.
And one from you Mr. Rapozo?
Yes.
Okay, any discussion here?
Councilwoman
COUNCIL MEETING -96- September 7, 2011
Ms. Nakamura: Do you mean overnight fishing outside of the park
boundary, the camp boundary?
Mr. Kuali`i: No, that wouldn't have nothing to do with having a
permit if it was outside of the boundary. We're talking about ... this is the rules of
the campgrounds.
Ms. Nakamura: Okay.
Mr. Kuali`i: And not just fishing, but any other activity not
otherwise prohibited by law. The example I gave was when a large group of people
went to the beach, parked adjacent to the camping area, I mean the box and was
stargazing, we were waiting for the comet through the night.
Council Chair Furfaro: Councilwoman Yukimura.
Ms. Yukimura: So if they also are doing things that are like
camping, I mean they're pitching tents or sitting around the campfire sites as well,
but they're also fishing, I think it might raise some enforcement issues about how
you enforce it.
Mr. Kuali`i: So it says...
Ms. Yukimura: If you might say maybe solely... no permit shall be
required for overnight fishing or other activities done solely without camping
activities or some clarification like that.
Mr. Kuali`i: Well, I mean this is added to the section that
defines any person who camps, erects a tent or constructs any temporary sleep
quarters at the Lydgate park and camping area, shall first obtain a camping permit
from a... so it's saying that you have to get a permit if you're camping. And I'm
saying, we say you don't need a permit if you're not camping, if you're just overnight
fishing, if you're just waiting for the comet with a group of people on the beach. It
would be just fine if it was just on the beach. But to get to the beach, the vehicles
pull up in that open areas which is not a box for a tent. When people get their
permits it's for their specific areas. There are still plenty other areas that
non - campers use.
Council Chair Furfaro: Councilmember Yukimura.
Ms. Yukimura: It's still going to be an issue, I think, because
somebody who's camping might also be doing overnight fishing and then they're
going to say, well, you can't require a permit of me. So perhaps to clarify and I'm
just trying to think out loud here, no permit shall be required for overnight fishing
or other activity not otherwise prohibited by law as long as the previous mentioned
activities are not also engaged in or we might need some help from our staff or
somebody else around the table, just so that it's clear.
Mr. Kuali`i: How about this...
Ms. Yukimura: Okay.
COUNCIL MEETING -97- September 7, 2011
Mr. Kuali`i: Don't you believe that the permit that is being
required is assigned to one of these campsites. So these campsites have definite
boxed in areas. So unless maybe it's the group that takes that large area, but I
think even the group, right, there's a group area which is over by the big open park,
not by the beach where...
Ms. Yukimura: Well, the thing is...
Mr. Kuali`i: Then they would have to get a permit and they
could. A group of fishermen could plan ahead that they're going to camp and fish
and they could get maybe two or three sites right along the ocean and they would be
required to get it in that case because they're going to put up tents and they're
really going to camp.
Ms. Yukimura: Well, that's what we're wanting to clarify because
you could have people in those sites with fishing poles saying, I'm fishing and
therefore no permit shall be required for overnight fishing.
Mr. Kuali`i: Oh, okay. So no permit for non - designated
campsites. Now, it's not the campground area that isn't ... I mean in that whole plan
there's numbers, right? To each site, there's a number and then when you get your
permit it's for one of those numbered areas. We're not talking about those
numbered areas, clearly that's what the permits are for. We're talking about all the
other areas.
Ms. Yukimura: I hear what you're trying to say but I'm trying to
make the wording match exactly your intention. So somebody help us.
Council Chair Furfaro: We're going to take a 10- minute recess while we get
verbiage corrected in this amendment.
There being no objection, the meeting was recessed at 4:53 p.m.
The meeting was called back to order at 5:10 p.m., and proceeded as follows:
Council Chair Furfaro: For the purposes of revisiting a second amendment
for camping at Lydgate, while the staff is working on that amendment, I would like
to move on to the next item on our agenda, item 2011 -255 which deals with Road
Resurfacing and Mr. Dill. I do have Gary Mackler lined up after that on the
Housing piece and then on the Real Property Exemption. So I would like to keep
our momentum here. Is there someone in the staff able to get a hold of Mr. Dill and
can I ask you to read the item, Mr. Clerk?
Mr. Nakamura: Council Chair, we're on page 3 of the council's
agenda on communication C 2011 -255.
C 2011 -255 Communication (08/26/2011) from the County Engineer,
transmitting for Council approval, the Revised Islandwide Road Resurfacing List
for Fiscal Year 2011 -2012 (Attachment A): Mr. Rapozo moved to approve
C 2011 -255, seconded by Mr. Bynum.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. It's a motion to approve and a second.
On that note, Mr. Dill, I'm going to suspend the rules and ask you to come up and
make a presentation to the body knowing that I will reschedule the second part of
this for September 21.
COUNCIL MEETING -98- September 7, 2011
There being no objection, the rules were suspended.
LARRY DILL, COUNTY ENGINEER: Good evening. My name is Larry Dill,
County Engineer for the record. You have before you our proposed revised
Islandwide Road Resurfacing List for this fiscal year. As you are aware we had
gained your approval for our Road Resurfacing List a few months ago. Since that
time we've been working on getting the contract to go out to bid which I'm happy to
announce we'll do so shortly. But in doing that we've continued to conduct our
inspections of the various island roadways and come across a couple of roads that
we'd like to add to the list and also roads where we've been receiving complaints as
well, so that's another factor. So if you take a look at the letter we presented, the
August 26 letter, second paragraph, that short sentence describes the summary of
all the changes we're requesting to the list. We're looking at adding two roads,
Kawaihau Road, actually a section up in Kapahi where it's got some problems, and
Pa`anau Road in the Koloa District where the road is in bad shape. We're proposing
to delete Kalapaki Road and that road actually will be resurfaced by the Marriott.
They've come in to us and proposed some improvements there. We are shifting the
collector roads to be funded under the Federal Highways Administration STIP
program, so we're deleting it from this list where we had shown it being funded by
the county as a 100 percent over to a money bill which will be coming to you in a
couple of weeks for approval where we show it being funded by the Federal
Highways STIP program. And that's a summary of all the changes we're asking for.
You have in front of you both the old approved list, the previously approved list, as
well as the revised list. I'd be happy to take any questions.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, I would just ask that that date we will
resurface this is 9/21/2011, is that correct, Mr. Clerk?
Mr. Nakamura: Yes.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay and that'll be the next full council meeting
and I really want to appreciate what you have done with the staff to identify
negotiating the best possible prices for us and addressing the expansion of these
additional roads through the usage of some STIP program money. So let me see if
there's any additional questions from people right now. Mr. Bynum?
Mr. Bynum: I just have one very
but I want to put it on the record. These change s
department based on your analysis of need?
Mr. Dill: That's correct.
quick and I know the answer,
are the initiative from your
Mr. Bynum: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Council Vice Chair Yukimura.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes and just to clarify that we are approving, right,
this resurfacing list as amended, as proposed to be amended?
Mr. Dill: Yes, please.
Ms. Yukimura: But the additional capital to do the county match
for the STIP project will come on the 21st?
Mr. Dill: Yes, that's correct, yes.
COUNCIL MEETING -99- September 7, 2011
Ms. Yukimura: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, any additional questions for Mr. Dill? No?
Mr. Dill, thank you very much and we will be seeing you again on the 21st. Any
comments from anyone in the public? Mr. Mickens.
GLENN MICKENS: Thank you again, Jay, for the record Glenn
Mickens. If you want, Jay, I can wait till your next meeting to read my testimony.
I'll just have... maybe... you think so, Tim?
Mr. Bynum: Anything to save time at this point.
Ms. Yukimura: Yeah.
Mr. Mickens: I can see the time is running late. Just maybe a
couple of questions for Larry. He mentioned about a few more roads being added to
the list. Olohena isn't on that list, hasn't been added. Tim, you're familiar with
that, Olohena, that section there that says potholes ahead. It still ... it's got to really
be fixed bad, but there's a section in that that's maybe a 5 or 6 mile long road,
Olohena. It's a major, major artery and I cannot believe if you come from the
ground up, up to the middle school, that whole section of the road there is falling
apart. It's in horrendous shape. It's not going to last that much longer and if it's
not on this list, you're going to wait one more year for it. But there's so many roads
like this and again with the limited budget, but again, I'll hold off these questions
that I do have for Larry. Jay, you were kind enough to see if we could get together,
so I'll wait. But I just wonder how do we go about then if there's certain roads that
are really in horrendous shape like this, how do we go about getting them put on
this list or is there a methodology by doing that?
Council Chair Furfaro: Well, I'll be more than glad and I want to thank
Mr. Dill who has indicated if we can mutually agree on a time prior to the 21st, he
can explain the changes on the STIP and the reality of his study as it relates to
additional opportunities here with 80/20 matches. I'll actually give you a copy of his
correspondence today.
Mr. Mickens: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: So it might be around the 20th of September that
we meet, I'll be in touch with you.
Mr. Mickens: Great.
Council Chair Furfaro: But I would prefer to say at this time that he and
his accounting staff Clint Saiki are doing everything possible to really visit
expanding our funds through what's still available out with the federal government
and that is probably what is going to get us to a point that we can expand some of
the current list.
Mr. Mickens: Well, I know the budget shows eight million some
dollars now, but that was my other part of the question of how do we accumulate
that amount of money when, as you pointed out before, we've had basically $1.8 to
$2 million budgeted every year and all of a sudden for three years, we didn't do
any ... it can't be ... we just didn't do any road paving whatsoever and and we've
accumulated that money. Well, that's another question I guess we can save for
Larry.
COUNCIL MEETING -100- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: I will work with Mr. Dill to provide some time for
you to help clarify some of your questions that might come up on the 21st.
Mr. Mickens: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: But in the meantime if I can have the staff, Scott,
would you please give this copy of my communication to Mr. Mickens and I'll get
you an appointment as the big item today is adding a few roads based on the STIP
funds that they found available.
Mr. Mickens: Right, right, and to find the methodology by which
those roads were picked over maybe some other ones that I've mentioned before.
Council Chair Furfaro: That is a discussion you should have with the
county engineer and not directed at me.
Mr. Mickens:
Council Chair Furfaro
Mr. Mickens:
Okay.
Okay?
Thank you very much, Jay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much. Scott has a package for you,
okay. Is there any more discussion on this presentation made by Mr. Dill? We're
back in session.
There being no objection, the meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as
follows:
Council Chair Furfaro: Council Vice Chair.
Ms. Yukimura: Thank you Mr. Chair. I want to thank Mr. Dill and
his staff for the work in putting this bid together. It's a big package partly because
we did not do timely repaving over the last couple years, but it's really great that
we're finally going out to bid and I hope with better quality repaving than we've had
in the past. As you recall, we discussed the problem of the high shoulders and
hopefully there'll be more sloping down to the edges, and hopefully there'll be a
better foundation so that the paving takes or lasts longer. So I look forward to
seeing that happen and the most exciting thing is that it's going to be providing jobs
over... probably for the next year and that's certainly welcomed. And then I want to
thank the administration for their astuteness in recognizing that we might use
some federal moneys through the STIP program which allows us then just to pay for
20 percent of the cost and really maximizes our county moneys. That's really
exemplary and wonderful that we're doing that. As Mr. Mickens pointed out, we
still have a lot to catch up even beyond this bid list and what I look forward to is
next year's budget to see how that software and programming is working so that
we'll be able to schedule the next round of roads in a professional and sound
engineering way.
Council Chair Furfaro:
Did I get a motion on the...
Mr. Nakamura
Thank you, Vice Chair. Any further comments?
Yes, a motion and a second.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, and a second. Any further discussion? If
not, all those in favor, signify by saying aye.
COUNCIL MEETING _101- September 7, 2011
The motion to approve C 2011 -255 was then put, and unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much. Mr. Dill, thank you for
being here. We'll see you on the 21st and I'll set up an appointment with you with
Mr. Mickens and myself. Thank you. Thank you, Glenn. Let's go to the next item
on the agenda with Housing.
Item C 2011 -259 was taken out of order.
Mr. Nakamura: Council Chair, if we could, on page 4 of the council's
agenda, there's a Legal Document for approval, which is communication
C 2011 -259.
LEGAL DOCUMENT:
C 2011 -259 Communication (08/31/2011) from the Director of Housing,
recommending approval of the following:
• Amendment of Ground Lease with Paanau Village Partners LP
(General Partner) (Lessee) for Lot 4 -B, Subdivision S- 2007 -20,
TMK (4) 2- 6- 15 -20, Paanau Village Phase 2, which ensures that the
financing of this project through tax credit investments is properly
structured, thus allowing the completion of 50 new affordable
rental units for low- income households earning under 80 percent of
the Kauai median household income for a term of no less than
63.5 years.
Mr. Chang moved to approve C 2011 -259, seconded by Mr. Rapozo.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. There's been a motion to approve and a
second. I'm going to suspend the rules. Mr. Mackler, would you and your group like
to come up and join us?
There being no objection, the rules were suspended.
GARY MACKLER, Housing Development Coordinator: Good afternoon
Council, Gary Mackler for the Housing Agency.
Council Chair Furfaro: Good evening.
MONA CLARK, Deputy County Attorney: Mona Clark, Deputy County
Attorney.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Mr. Mackler, I will turn the floor over
to you to give us an overview of some good news about the project moving forward
and it looks like it's more on schedule or ahead of schedule, but also some of the
critical parts regarding the tax credits.
Mr. Mackler: Okay, and let me just update you on the progress of
construction. The general contractor Shioi Construction is moving actually much
faster than all of us anticipated. They're approximately three months ahead of
schedule where they are now projecting the completion of construction by the end of
January 2012. Originally, I think it was about late April 2012, and I think that's
partly due to good weather, but I think it's mostly due to good coordination by the
general on the job. So we're very happy to see that.
COUNCIL MEETING -102- September 7, 2011
We're here today to ask for your consideration to approve an amendment to
the ground lease between the County of Kauai and Paanau Village Partners LP,
which was approved by council back in December of 2010 to make the site available
for the affordable housing project for 63.5 years. The primary source of financing
for Paanau Village Phase II is through the low - income housing tax credit program
and what happens with. that financing is that an investor will purchase the tax
credits and in return will provide a certain amount of investment up front to finance
the construction and development of the project. In this case the investor limited
partner is Wachovia and they are bringing approximately $11.1 million to the
project as equity to finance it. In return they should be able to take approximately
$12.1 million of tax credits over a 10 -year period. In doing this type of financing,
the investor will retain legal counsel to review all of the project documents to ensure
that they are entitled to the full benefit of the tax credits which they hope and
expect to be able to use for 10 years. Wachovia's counsel looked at all of the project
documents. One of the documents that raised an issue for them was a provision in
the ground lease which allows for the County of Kauai to terminate the lease early
at the end of 15 years, which is the length of time for tax credit compliance. And
what that issue that was raised was identified to us was that the termination
provision would deprive the partnership of tax ownership of the project and would
call into question whether or not they could receive their tax credits. And their
legal counsel could not render an opinion at this time based on that provision to
assure the investor that they would be entitled to take those credits. So what we
have been working with, all of the parties, for some time now is to look at how can
we amend the ground lease to make sure that the investors are going to be able to
receive their tax credits and that's why we're here today with the amendment.
Council Chair Furfaro: Very good. Members, do we have questions for the
Housing officer? You have the floor, Vice Chair.
Ms. Yukimura: Thank you. Thank you Gary, Mona. So in
amending the lease, we're removing the early termination clause but in place
putting in some provisions that will protect the county and its purpose. Could you
maybe just explain a little bit about that?
Mr. Mackler:
part of this to you.
Ms. Yukimura:
Ms. Clark:
Council Chair Furfaro:
introduce yourself.
Sure, I think I'm going to ask Mona to present that
Okay.
The county will have a first right of refusal.
I hate to do this to you, Mona, but you need to
Ms. Clark: Oh, I apologize. Mona Clark, Deputy County
Attorney. The 26 USC Section 42 has a safe harbor that deals with tax ownership
issues or addresses that in part, and it provides that the county can have a first
right of refusal after the compliance period for a price that's no less than the
outstanding indebtedness on the property and any taxes that become due in
connection with the sale. And so basically to keep the tax ownership in the limited
partnership, the county can only get the first right of refusal. So that's been
inserted into the amended ground lease and it tracks the safe harbor provision of
the statute.
COUNCIL MEETING -103- September 7, 2011
In addition the county would be entitled to an assignment premium. The
county will have the absolute right to review anybody who will come in as a buyer to
make sure that they meet specified criteria as far as their management expertise
and their past practices. As part of that, the county would get a premium equal to
the full value of the lease at fair market value for the 63.5 -year term and that would
be payable at the time of a sale that would happen to a third party.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay, thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: So what I took away from all of that is that this
amendment restructures for the investor appropriately but doesn't give up any of
the county's options?
Ms. Clark: Well, the county would have had a right to take
ownership of the project after 15 years, but the safe harbor provision that's in-the
statute doesn't provide for that and so we had to track with the statute provided.
Mr. Bynum: Got you. Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: So in reality what the investor, do we refer to them
as a limited partner?
Mr. Mackler: Yes, they are a formed limited partnership.
Council Chair Furfaro: So what we basically say, it really has no impact on
the mission of the Housing Department which is to provide affordable housing for a
period of 63.5 years, which is actually the goal of the Housing Department.
Mr. Mackler: It is. The long -term public policy of providing
50 units of affordable housing for low- income families is not compromised in any
way by the amendments that are before you to the ground lease.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Any other questions? Vice Chair
Yukimura, I'll go back to you.
Ms. Yukimura: Yeah, it's just that it's not as protective as the early
termination clause, but it's as protective as we can get.
Mr. Mackler: Yes and there are also some other protections in
place with this project, including the ground lease itself which is a recorded
document which speaks to the use of the property.
Ms. Yukimura: Right.
Mr. Mackler: There will also be a restrictive covenant recorded
for the use of Federal Home Investment Partnership Program funds which is the
other source of financing for this project and that would be to ensure the minimum
20 -year period of affordability under the home program. There will also be a
restrictive covenant that is recorded as a requirement of the State of Hawaii
Housing Finance and Development Corporation for the tax credit financing. That
restrictive covenant has to be recorded before the state will sign off on the eligibility
of this project for tax credits. So they will record that for sixty -three and a half
years. So
COUNCIL MEETING -104- September 7, 2011
there's the ground lease, there's also the County of Kauai funding agreement or
contract with the general partner and two restrictive .covenants that are in place for
this project.
Council Chair Furfaro: Any further questions from members? No? Thank
you very much for both being here.
Ms. Yukimura: Thank you.
Mr. Mackler: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Is there anyone else? John, are you here to testify
in any way? Seeing no one here, I'll call the meeting back to order.
There being no objection, the meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as
follows:
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Just very briefly, Gary mentioned the great
coordination by the general contractor is why we're ahead and that is Shioi
Construction, one of our fine Kauai firms, so I appreciate Shioi and also that they
had a lot of guys that weren't working who are working now because of this project,
so this is a really good thing. Thanks.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Any further discussion? If not, do we
have a motion and a second? Am I correct? And this is just a voice vote. All those
in favor, signify by saying aye, please.
The motion to approve C 2011 -259 was then put, and unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much. Now, I believe we're going
to go to a new item. Do we know where we're at on the floor amendment? Okay, so
they're checking on the floor amendment and Mr. Costa isn't here yet. So, we're
going to take a short break for an undesignated time.
Ms. Yukimura: We can deal with our other things.
Council Chair Furfaro: Vice Chair, I agree with you.
Ms. Yukimura: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay.
Ms. Yukimura: Let's get as much done as we can.
Council Chair Furfaro: I've been so wrapped up in the backlog that we
have here, so let's go through the other items.
Mr. Nakamura: Council Chair, we're on page 2 of the council's
agenda on Communications for Approval, communication C 2011 -250.
COMMUNICATIONS:
C 2011 -250 Communication (08/0512011) from the Director of Housing,
requesting Council approval to decline the repurchase of Unit No. 304, Hookena at
COUNCIL MEETING -105- September 7, 2011
Puhi, located at 2080 Manawalea Street, #304, Lihu`e, Hawaii 96766, and to
provide the owner with a one -year waiver of the resale restriction: Mr. Chang
moved to approve C 2011 -250, seconded by Mr. Kuali`i, and unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you, next item.
Mr. Nakamura: On the bottom of page 2, a communication for
approval, communication C 2011 -251.
C 2011 -251 Communication (08/08/2011) from the Chief of Police, requesting
Council approval to expend asset forfeiture funds in the amount of $15,000.00 to
purchase equipment and uniforms for the newly formed Fugitive Apprehension
Strike Team or F.A.S.T: Mr. Chang moved to approve C 2011 -251, seconded by
Ms. Yukimura.
Council Chair Furfaro: Any discussion?
Ms. Yukimura: Mr. Chair?
Council Chair Furfaro: Vice Chair Yukimura.
Ms. Yukimura: Can we just have the record reflect that there's
nobody in the audience, so we don't have to ask for public testimony.
Council Chair Furfaro: Well, I will say that there is no one in the office
except the media people, the Garden Island...
Ms. Yukimura: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: And if they're not willing to testify, let the record
show that I will not be asking that question.
Ms. Yukimura: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: All those in favor, signify by saying aye.
The motion to approve C 2011 -251 was then put, and unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you, next item.
Mr. Nakamura: We're at the top of page 3 on a communication for
approval, communication C 2011 -252.
C 2011 -252 Communication (08/11/2011) from the First Deputy Prosecuting
Attorney, requesting Council approval to expend approximately $36,000.00 of their
County Funds to purchase a Mechanical Assist High Density Mobile Storage
System to house the large number of case files they are required to keep while
processing them: Mr. Bynum moved to approve C 2011 -252, seconded by
Ms. Yukimura, and unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Next item, Mr. Clerk.
Mr. Nakamura: On page 3, a communication for approval,
communication C 2011 -253.
COUNCIL MEETING -106- September 7, 2011
C 2011 -253 Communication (08/22/2011) from the First Deputy Prosecuting
Attorney, requesting Council approval to expend approximately $10,000.00 of their
Fiscal Year 2012 County Funds to purchase upgrades to their Lobby Security
System: Mr. Chang moved to approve C 2011 -253, seconded by Ms. Yukimura, and
unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Next item please.
Mr. Nakamura: Next matter is a communication from the Chair of
the Charter Review Commission, communication C- 2011 -254.
C 2011 -254 Communication (08/23/2011) from the Chair of the Charter
Review Commission, requesting (1) comments from the Council regarding a
proposal to amend Article XV of the Kauai County Charter, Relating to
Establishing a Department of Human Resources, and (2) whether the Council
endorses the transitioning of the existing Department of Personnel Services to a
more comprehensive and fully functional Human Resources Department, as
outlined in the proposed amendment.
• Charter Amendment: Article XV of the Kauai County Charter
Relating to Establishing a Department of Human Resources
Ms. Yukimura: Move to endorse as the council this idea.
Council Chair Furfaro: Do you want to restate that one more time?
Ms. Yukimura: Let's see, requesting comments and whether the
county endorses the transitioning of an existing department to a more
comprehensive department. So move to endorse the transitioning of the existing
department of personnel services to a more comprehensive and fully functional
human resources department as outlined in the proposed charter amendment.
Council Chair Furfaro: And I'm assuming that that endorsement that you
would like the letter to go from the Council Chair to that commission?
Ms. Yukimura: Stating that we've taken a vote on the matter?
Council Chair Furfaro: Yes.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes. I need a second.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, since we don't know the outcome of the vote
because we're still dragging a second, can I have a second?
Mr. Chang:
Second.
Ms. Yukimura moved to endorse the transitioning of the existing Department
of Personnel Services to a more comprehensive and fully functional Human
Resources Department, seconded by Mr. Chang.
Council Chair Furfaro: Discussion?
Mr. Rapozo: Has this been vetted? I mean this did not go to a
committee or anything, right? It just showed up on the agenda and you're willing to
endorse? Well, I'm not. I'd much rather see the discussion and have the
administration here as well than just say yes.
COUNCIL MEETING -107- September 7, 2011
Ms. Yukimura: I wouldn't object to that.
Mr. Rapozo: Okay, I thought maybe I missed a meeting or
something.
Ms. Yukimura: Oh, but we have a deadline.
Mr. Rapozo: September 15 and we're not going to make the
deadline. I'm not sure what the drop dead deadline is, but just knowing the process
of the county council, we received this on August 25, and I think to demand a
response by September 15 is probably not going to happen, but I think we can do
the best we can. When is our next meeting?
Mr. Kuali'i: The 21st.
Mr. Rapozo: That already takes us outside of the deadline, so...
Ms. Yukimura: Can we at least have a discussion?
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Mr. Rapozo is indicating that perhaps we
should be writing a letter to them indicating because of the short notice and the
lack of having a full discussion, it might be difficult for us to meet their deadline.
So, let me go to Mr. Bynum, you had your hand up?
Mr. Bynum: In terms of the concept I certainly support it and
we've discussed a lot about transitioning to a more robust human resources. I kind
of assumed somebody would be here to discuss the specifics of the charter because
I'm making some assumptions that this has been vetted and that the county
attorneys have reviewed it, and so I thought we would get those assurances and
have an opportunity to discuss. So I guess I'm sharing Councilmember Rapozo's
reluctance to vote without at least some questions and answers.
Council Chair Furfaro: Council Vice Chair Yukimura.
Ms Yukimura: I sure understand the request for and the desire for
a full discussion and some dialogue with the administration. I personally strongly
support this move. I think it will take the County of Kauai from the 18th century
to the 21st because we really need some high quality professional approach to
human resources in this county. I think the present personnel office does a valiant
job, but they are restricted in their scope, and so this would allow them to actually
move into the direction of a fully fledged human resources. A corporation, public
corporation like we are with a thousand plus employees and all levels of complexity
of work really requires a very cohesive, proactive, professional human resources
support, very, very critical, and the scope right now of the personnel office per the
charter is extremely limited and obsolete in my mind.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Mr. Kuali`i and then Mr. Rapozo.
Mr. Kuali`i: Just briefly Mr. Chair, I have prepared my
response and basically I want to know about the anticipated or projected changes in
service level and anticipated or projected changes in costs that this will result in.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, quite frankly I do believe the approach that
you had on this matter, Mr. Kuali`i, is probably the right way to go. I believe the
motion was made by Council Vice Chair Yukimura, and so I queried that, do you
mean you're approving me to write something because I plan to write something
COUNCIL MEETING -108- September 7, 2011
anyway. I think we are badly lacking in ... you know, I've been to the salary
commission twice to give testimony; I have given testimony on upward appraisals; I
have moved meetings that some of you participated in in establishing continuity
development plans, training focus. So I really would like to say to you that yeah,
I'm going to write my own letter and I would encourage all of you to write your own
letters as well rather than kind of say, okay, let's send over a joint statement by the
deadline so desired.
Ms. Yukimura: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: So I think, KipuKai, what you've done there is
probably the right approach that we should all send a communication individually
to them about the feelings you want to express. Mr. Rapozo?
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. I have been to at least two charter
amendments involving county departments, parks was one of them; auditors was
another one. And I have to tell you, both of them came with some fiscal surprises
after the amendment. So like Mr. Kuali`i, I share that concern and that's why I'm
hoping we can get this probably in the committee of the whole and get the
administration here. Really, what would it take? What is it going to take? Are we
looking at the same personnel moving around? Are we looking at creating
additional positions at the rate of $2 million like I believe parks turned out to be
and the auditors which ... it was substantial. Was it was a million dollars in
additional unanticipated increases? Because conceptually I agree. I think
eventually we want to get to an HR position, but we have to know how to get there
before we change the rules because once the mandate is there, then we have to
move, and there's typically a deadline of when it needs to be implemented. So there
has to be some sort of plan in place before we go ahead and say, yes, put it on the
ballot. If you read the memo, the way the ballot is written, ballot question, I would
bet it'll be victorious. I mean it'll win; it'll pass and I think by a large number. But
this county has to be ready to implement the amendment and that is more of my
concern right now, thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Mr. Bynum?
Mr. Bynum: Yeah, I know from reading the amendment, the
concept yes, but I have some legal questions as well. So if we're going to send this
to committee, perhaps in anticipation of that I would want to prepare some
questions.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Councilwoman Nakamura.
Ms. Nakamura: I support the move to a human resources
department, but I agree with other views expressed here that we really need to be
proactive about this. If we're going to do it, we need to do it right, and we need to
plan ahead for what the costs are going to be and what this manpower requirements
are going to be. I also had a chance to look at the Maui and the other counties'
charter sections dealing with human resource departments. I noticed that what
we're proposing is very similar to Maui and Hawai'i Islands' Charter Sections, but
Honolulu's is a little more lengthy and you can tell there's been a lot of thought and
evolution in the kinds of sections that are included in the charter amendment itself.
I'm thinking if we're going to change it, let's do it right and let's learn from what the
Honolulu experience is, whether it's based on litigation or whatever issues they've
confronted. Let's do it right and let's propose to the charter commission the kinds of
things we want to see in this section rather than follow every other... some of the
other counties that have a pretty bare bones section that's being proposed now.
COUNCIL MEETING -109- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro
Yukimura.
Okay any further discussion? Council Vice Chair
Ms. Yukimura: I think the comments around the table are well
taken. If we can actually get a consensus I think it would be a more powerful
statement if we could make it as a body, but otherwise we can make individual
comments. I think in the long run we will save a lot of money but that doesn't
negate the point about making sure that we know where we're going and that we
need a good transition plan. So I think the comments are well taken and I think
having an open public discussion even in our next session, assuming that we can
have some impact even after September 15, might be very useful because it would
engage members of the public who are watching this in participating in the
thoughts and questions and answers. Anyway, just a few minutes here together has
been good.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Mr. Rapozo.
Mr. Rapozo: I just want to highlight one thing that the
amendment would put the supervision of the personnel director /the human
resources director under the mayor. That's a substantial change from the current
charter because right now it's the civil service commission. So make sure you folks
understand that if this thing goes through and passes, the supervision of the
director now comes under the mayor, which it's again a substantial change that I
believe needs to be vetted out and really, really thought about before we start
moving this thing along. Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Yeah, I didn't know we were going to get into
detail, but it also removes language that says all positions in the county except
those exempted by law shall be under civil service and replaces it with a different
language. I think we would have to talk to the unions about ... let them vet that.
(Inaudible) where I have some legal questions because there was a policy that said
unless it's exempt it's civil service. This language would seem to me to open that
some positions may not be civil service and maybe we want to do that, but I want to
talk about it; I want to understand more. So it sounds like we're moving to sending
legal questions and moving this to committee, yes?
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, any additional questions? Councilwoman
Yukimura?
Ms. Yukimura: I appreciate the fact that Mr. Rapozo has pointed
out that major structural change proposed which is that the human resources
director would be directly accountable to the mayor. I don't think there's a company
in the world where the human resources person isn't directly accountable to the
CEO or the head of the corporation. And I think it has some really good benefits,
but I think there's also some concerns when ... if the mayor is disregardful —if there's
such a word —or disregards merit and qualifications, that could create some
problems. So that is clearly a structural issue to discuss.
Council Chair Furfaro: Councilmember Nakamura.
Ms. Nakamura: And I think if you take a look at the Honolulu
Charter Section on this, there is some language in there that I think will be very
helpful if we move to that structure.
COUNCIL MEETING -110- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay and I'm glad I re- questioned the motion
because I have a real problem with the proposed ballot question. I mean it's
three lines as it stands right now. Shall the title of department of personnel
services be changed to the department of human services and its existing scope of
responsibilities broadened to include a more comprehensive human resource
function? There has got to be more to this than those three lines.
Mr. Rapozo: I will make a motion to refer this to the committee
of the whole?
Ms. Yukimura: Second.
Mr. Rapozo moved to refer C 2011 -254 to the Committee of the Whole,
seconded by Ms. Yukimura.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, any further discussion?
Ms. Yukimura: Should we have some dialogue or send a
communication to the chair of the charter review commission indicating our reasons
for taking this route and expressing a desire to have substantial input before they
make any final decision on this charter amendment parallel with the referrals?
Council Chair Furfaro: Yes and I will be glad to ask the clerk and some of
our analysts to construct the correspondence as such to go over under my signature
for right now and then we will take Mr. Rapozo's recommendation to have a future
item that shows up in the committee of the whole.
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: All those in favor, signify by saying aye on the
motion?
The motion to refer C 2011 -254 to the Committee of the Whole was then put,
and unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much.
Mr. Kuali`i: Mr. Chair?
Council Chair Furfaro: Yes.
Mr. Kuali`i:
amendment?
So my amendment is ready. Can we get back to my
Council Chair Furfaro: Yes. Your amendment is ready. George, we're
going to move on one amendment item before we come to you.
There being no objections, discussions regarding Bill No. 2149, Draft 4, was
continued.
Mr. Kuali`i: So just to clarify, we added the map of the camping
sites and the language is "No permit shall be required for overnight fishing within
the Lydgate Park camping area unless the person is using one of the designated
camp sites numbered 1 -31 on the map attached hereto as Exhibit `B'."
COUNCIL MEETING
Council Chair Furfaro:
Ms. Yukimura:
Council Chair Furfaro:
we...
Mr. Kuali`i:
Ms. Yukimura:
- 111 -
Okay.
So we're back on this item?
September 7, 2011
Yes, I'm sorry we are back on the amendments that
So I move to amend as circulated.
Second.
Mr. Kuali`i moved to amend Bill No. 2149, Draft 4, as shown in the Floor
Amendment which is attached hereto (Attachment No. 2), seconded by
Ms. Yukimura.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, any further discussion?
Mr. Rapozo: Mr. Chair?
Council Chair Furfaro: Go ahead, you have discussion?
Mr. Rapozo: Okay, so Mr. Kuali`i, basically you're saying that
Lydgate Park, within that campground designation, will be open to normal park
users as long as they're not utilizing the camping pads, correct, for uses authorized
by law?
Mr. Kuali`i: Well, at the attorney's advice, I removed the
general provision about anything authorized by law.
Mr. Rapozo: Okay.
Mr. Kuali`i: Because it would make it hard to enforce.
Mr. Rapozo: Right and then it would conflict with the...
Mr. Kuali`i: So we're including overnight fishing and that's
what we have..
Mr. Rapozo: Okay, I'm good, thank you.
Mr. Kuali`i: The others will be distinguished between whether
they're camping or not and whether they're on the site or not.
Council Chair Furfaro: Councilwoman Nakamura?
. Ms. Nakamura: This is just a question so I can understand this
amendment. So if a fisherman is ... they could get a permit, use the camp site, but if
they're... I'm not sure I understand.
Mr. Kuali`i: So they could also fish without a permit if they
weren't utilizing any of these campsites. There's a lot of vacant area between the
campsites that is along the coast.
Ms. Nakamura: Right.
COUNCIL MEETING -112- September 7, 2011
Mr. Kuali`i: And while some fishermen may drive under the
bridge and actually drive out on the sand, which is not part of the campgrounds,
some and most that I see drive up along the edge of the campground metes and
bounds, maybe back their truck in, and fish from there. So they put the poles in the
water, but they sit or congregate in an area that's in the campground that isn't a
campsite.
Ms. Nakamura: I see.
Mr. Kuali`i: So they shouldn't be required to have a permit for
that.
Ms. Nakamura: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Mr. Chang?
Mr. Chang: Yes, I'm a little befuddled here. So if they were to
come out by Kamalani Bridge you say and cut back along the beach?
Mr. Kuali`i: Which I don't do. I don't like driving on the beach
so, but fishermen do, some do.
Mr. Chang:
trucks anyway or vehicles?
Mr. Kuali`i:
property.
Ms. Yukimura:
Mr. Kuali`i:
Okay, but is it not illegal to be on the beach with
Well, this is not about that because that's the state
The bill only refers to that boundaried area so....
Sorry to confuse you.
Ms. Yukimura: So we aren't even trying to regulate that area
outside the boundaries of the park with this bill. So it's not really relevant to the
bill. But Councilmember Kuali`i is trying to address the area that is within the
boundary of the bill but not in the campsites themselves. He wants to make sure
nobody who has come to fish within those boundaries and puts their things or
whatever within the boundary but not in the site is able to do that.
Mr. Kuali`i: Yes.
Ms. Yukimura: Is that clear?
Council Chair Furfaro: Council will recognize the county attorney.
There being no objection, the rules were suspended.
Mr. Castillo: Council Chair, thank you. I have had the chance to
review the proposed amendment and I have a lot of concerns. The concern is or the
question is enforcement. Let me go down the analysis that I have. First of all
fishing on the beach is a legal activity. Fishing at night all night is a legal activity.
The focus of this bill is to regulate the conduct that is within the designated
camping area. So you cannot camp in the area but that does not prohibit any
person from sitting down in the camping area. The over regulation of this bill, if it
turns into an ordinance, would create a loophole in the law. The way it is written
now does account for someone that fishes overnight and/or falls asleep within an
COUNCIL MEETING -113- September 7, 2011
erected tent or within his temporary sleeping quarters and that would be illegal
under the law as it is written. So right now the way that it's written, it's a little
problematic and may need more legal work if you want to put in more regulations
within this section. I don't know if it's ... because right now the way that it's
worded ... like again like I said fishing is a legal activity.
The meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as follows:
Mr. Kuali`i: Fishing is a legal activity on the beach and you
were saying that it's not our jurisdiction because the beach is the state. So fishing
alone is not just a pole stuck in the sand with a line in the water. The people who
are actually fishing are not standing with that pole all the time. They are sitting in
their cars, they're sitting under a pop -up tent, they're eating, they're congregating,
they're socializing with their family and friends and what have you. So they are
utilizing the edge of the campground. They're on the campground. I'm just saying
they shouldn't be required to have a permit if they're in the camp area but not on a
campsite. This won't even apply if they plan ahead and decide to get a permit, take
up some of those campsites, make a big weekend of it, it won't apply. But for those
times, which is most of the time probably, when it's a last minute decision and they
go, they can go to the places they have always gone and utilize the vacant available
spaces that are not campsites that is within the campground area. That's all this
says. I removed, at the attorney's and legislative analyst's recommendation, the
language about all other lawful activities because their point to me was that would
make it vague and potentially hard to enforce. So that's why I removed that. I
think there is a distinction between what is already lawful by state law on the
beaches for fishing and the fact that we're putting in rules that are regulating this
campground area and that even if you would say it's already allowed, then what's
wrong with putting language that makes it expressly clear that it is allowed.
Council Chair Furfaro: Council Vice Chair Yukimura.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes, I'm going to be supporting this amendment
because I think it does what Councilmember Kuali`i says. It doesn't change the law,
it just clarifies it and actually might help enforcement. And if we find that it raises
more problems, we can always amend it. This is a key issue. I think from the start,
if we listen to the history from Councilmember Bynum, there's been a desire to
accommodate fishing. These are traditional and really important lifestyle issues for
our community. So I think Councilmember Kuali`i is just trying to make it as clear
as possible so that we can have both the camping and the fishing coexist together.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Councilwoman Nakamura.
Ms. Nakamura: I am also happy to support this amendment and
would be interested in hearing whether the county attorney had any suggestions on
how it could be improved since he did raise some concerns. So I'm open to hearing
what he has to say at any point during this meeting.
Council Chair Furfaro: Do you desire to share some information with us?
You can speak to us now.
There being no objection, the rules were suspended.
Mr. Castillo: Hello. Yes, I basically, when I look at this from an
enforcement point of view and I look at what is being regulated, to me the way that
it stands without the amendment, it is an enforcement question and the
enforcement people that go out and inspect the camping areas, they know who's
COUNCIL MEETING -114- September 7, 2011
camping and who's not camping. So I don't have any ... I'm fully knowledgeable of
the area and I fish in this area also so I kind of know who fishes and I know where
they fish. But I can see the present language working and I just hope that the
addition of this amendment doesn't create a loophole, that's all.
The meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as follows:
Council Chair Furfaro: Any further dialogue before ... Mr. Bynum, you have
more to say?
Mr. Bynum: Yeah, it's nice to hear that Al fishes down there
sometimes because I'm missing Larry Saito right now, who I spent a lot of time with
at Lydgate Park. I actually don't think serious fishermen are going to fish in this
area because the breaks in the reef are in a different place. I met with them and
then I started fishing at those spots and this was a number of years ago. I caught
my first papio there, so I don't think serious fishermen are going to choose this
particular area. They're going to be further down, especially off the point where
they like to whip, and so but I -don't see it causing a lot of harm either. Although
there is the possibility that somebody is going to ... the campground is full and they
set up a tent and say, hey, look here's my pole, I'm fishing. I don't think that's going
to be a big problem, but I think maybe that's where Al was coming from, but I'm
just going back to when fishermen said, these are the areas on this coastline that
we want to fish because this is where we catch because there's a break in the reef or
there's this... and they know that way better than I do. So I'm not objecting if that
adds a comfort level of other council members.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay I would like to say something if we're pau
with this discussion, may I? I certainly have no problem supporting this
amendment. I think it makes it very clear that no permit shall be required for
overnight fishermen. These are traditional fishermen that give their various
fishing areas great stewardship and a lot of people don't realize that the coastline
there is not necessarily Nukoli`i. It changed to Nukoli`i when it was the dairy, but
it's actually Nukole which references the beak of the Kole fish. I know that because
I hung around with Captain Henry Gomes for a long time of my life, and it makes it
very clear it is for overnight fishing. And if you want to use a campsite, then you're
going to have to get a campsite, one of these designated 1 -31 like anyone else. But if
you're there to fish overnight within the campground areas and I know other guys
that come around they check your cooler to see if you're catching fish legal size and
so all of those particular pieces are there, so I can support this amendment. Do we
have enough dialogue on this so we can actually vote on it now? Okay, we have a
motion and a second, am I right? All those in favor of this amendment, please
signify by saying aye.
The motion to amend Bill No. 2149, Draft 4, as amended, was then put, and
unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Very good, we have two amendments now for this
piece and we're going back to the main bill.
Mr. Nakamura: We're back on Bill No 2149, Draft 4, as amended by
Councilmember Kuali`i's floor amendment.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Mr. Rapozo.
Mr. Rapozo: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Several years ago I
remember sitting on this table and listening to Councilmember Yukimura vote on
COUNCIL MEETING -115- September 7, 2011
several amendments on a bill and I can't remember what bill it was and then at the
end vote against the bill. And I thought what is she thinking? And after the
meeting I said, JoAnn why would you do that? Why would you go through and vote
on all the amendments and then vote against the bill? And she said, because even
though I didn't support the bill, I wanted the bill to be the best that it would be.
And I don't know if I actually understood it until today. Now I understand.
Amazing yeah? I don't know if you remember that, but I remember sitting there
listening and my gosh, this lady is just wasting all our time going through these
amendments. But today it's clear, so thank you for that lesson.
Ms. Yukimura: Thank you.
Mr. Rapozo: I obviously will not be supporting the bill and I
think I have made my points clear throughout the meetings. I do want to start off
by saying I'm really, really disappointed that this bill made it through this council
without being vetted in the committee. I think a lot of the discussions here today on
a full council agenda was inappropriate. It should have been in a committee. I did
request that this matter be deferred for an extra meeting because Councilmember
Kuali`i and myself were not here. I made a request through the committee chair
with a cc to the chair simply because we had questions that we had sent over. If
you look at the date of the answers, it was dated today. So the questions were not
even close to being submitted and I felt that the extra two weeks would have given
the committee an opportunity to vet out and I was very disappointed that it got
passed out of the committee even though it was not done. In fact Mr. Castillo would
have loved to have an extra ... I'm not even going to suggest a referral back to the
committee because I know where that's going to go. But I think in all fairness to
the county attorney's office as well, they should be given the time to properly vet out
amendments. I think it's a bad precedent to set and I hope that we go back to the
old style where we do the work in committee and if you're not done then keep it in
committee because I think council meetings shouldn't be going on with all this
work.
I just want to go over my concerns quickly and obviously it's the staffing. We
heard today that there's not going to be an effort to even increase the staffing down
there. I think we heard from a labor union, we heard from an employee at a
meeting basically telling us that we don't have enough people. And now we're
hearing today for the first time that in fact the soccer games are all going to be
moved down to Lydgate and not going to be done up in Kapahi. I haven't verified
that, but I have no reason to doubt that comment. That will just add more use to it.
I think for us to expect those guys to continue to do more and more and not even in
my opinion a good faith effort to say we know it's additional duty and who's going to
dispute that'll be additional duty? Whether it's 16 sites or 31, it doesn't matter.
Restrooms, of course, there are some arguments that it's adequate, it's not
adequate. I believe it's not adequate. If you read the consultant's report, he
basically said 31 campsites and he estimated the use of 93 people. Thirty -one
campsites and a group camping area is going to definitely produce more than
93 people using that facility. There is no lighting down there; there is no lighting.
It dawned on me yesterday. I was having a discussion with a constituent and he
said, you know Mel, I ask myself, would I let my child walk to the bathroom from
the campsite at Lydgate? The answer is no. That tells me we are not ready for
campers. If you're not safe and feel safe enough to have the users go to the restroom
without fear of anything, then I think we're not ready. And there's no lighting down
there and it's really, really scary. I believe that the designation of Lydgate Park
and I think Mr. Castillo, thank you for your clarification when you came up earlier
and mentioned about the notice. I think Mr. Castillo is right and I agree with him
on that point that in fact you have to have proper notice. But the notice has to
COUNCIL MEETING -116- September 7, 2011
include where the rule is and it's very difficult and I can speak through experience,
it's very difficult to establish, especially in a park, where in fact did the violation
occur and where it didn't occur and I'm talking about at court. If you get stopped for
speeding or overtaking on a solid line on the Moloa'a Bridge, you better know where
you stopped that car because the division of the district is right between that. And
if you don't know where you were at, believe me I've seen many cases get lost
because the officer cannot tell where it was and the defense is saying it wasn't
there, it was here. And it's hard when that designation isn't created and I already
talked about the process.
You know we heard Mr. Rapozo say today that there is no standard. Thank
you, Mr. Chair, for providing him with some suggestions. By his own admission, we
have no standard. We're basically... we're not at that level yet. We don't have the
standard, so we're going to take a shot at it and see how it works out. Mr. Kipukai
Kuali`i mentioned earlier, why are we doing that? Why are we getting all our ducks
in a row before we open up the gates? I don't understand the rush, I really don't,
especially since this bill has been hanging in the wings now for probably five years.
I cannot imagine what another couple of weeks or months would do. It just makes
no sense that we would try to push this thing without having everything in order.
We talk about kokua and help, and I think when we heard from the employee, most
employees would never come up here and testify to that fact, no way, they would be
afraid. That gentleman came up and although he didn't come intending to testify
about it, about the shortage, about the fact that they need a couple more people to
adequately take care Lydgate Park, I mean I thought he was pretty clear. And I
think we have all been to Lydgate Park at one time or another and saw these guys
working their butts off and still not able to catch up because it's just a daily thing,
to and fro, and now we're going to add in a new component with no assistance.
So I think it's premature. It was interesting because a lot of the questions
posed today by various councilmembers made me think like we were going to be
heading for a deferral because a lot of questions still remain. A lot of questions
remain that are not answered and I don't think it's the right thing to go ahead and
approve the opening of this campgrounds, granted it doesn't take effect for 60 days,
but that campgrounds will be opened and it will be opened, in my opinion, without
the necessary manpower, without the necessary facilities, without the necessary
lighting, without the understanding between the employees and management. I
think when we heard the union representative talk today, they're far apart, they're
not near. There are still a lot of issues that need to be vetted out. I think there are
a lot of issues as far as responsibilities. Are we going to let a maintenance worker
go and do enforcement? While somebody may have made that arrange ... but we
don't have any proof of that. We don't have any agreements. Well then you can
expect grievances. Why don't we get all of that taken care of? Why don't we get all
of that squared away? How hard is it to get the union and the administration
together and say, okay, here, this is what we agreed on in 2007 or 2008? Why is
that not happening? Why does it take a 10- minute break here at council for the
union and the management and administration to be able to talk to each other?
Because we had a break? Thank goodness we had a caption break or else that
meeting would never occur. How really, how sincere are we in making things right
for the employees down at Lydgate, I question that. So I apologize for the ramble. I
can count, I see this is coming to an end. I just want to make sure and to
Mr. Bynum's comments about he couldn't understand why we're so meticulous, well
let me state for the record, that's our job. My job is to be meticulous; my job is to do
my best right now to prevent liability exposure and future headaches down the
road. That's my job. I take that seriously. If that's meticulous, if I'm being
criticized for that, you know what, thank you very much for that criticism because I
take it as a compliment because I really pride myself on doing my homework. I
COUNCIL MEETING -117- September 7, 2011
pride myself on trying to make sure everything is right before we turn the switch
on. This park isn't ready to be opened up and I think if you look inside your heart
and you understand and you listen to the employees, I think you know in your heart
that we're not ready. But we'll give it a shot and hopefully things work out. Maybe
we won't have a lot of people using it. But what if we do? What if we do? So
meticulous, yes, I'm guilty and I'll continue to be meticulous as long as I serve on
this county council. Thank you very much.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, any additional comments? I'm going to
reserve the privilege to speak last. Councilwoman Nakamura?
Ms. Nakamura: I'm going to be supporting this bill, but I do have
some reservations and some concerns that I wanted to raise. The first is that I
agree with Councilmember Chang about the enforcement and the park rangers'
schedules. To me, they need to be adjusted to this new situation. The feedback that
we got back from the administration gives us the schedules for the shifts of the four
people who are involved in enforcement including supervisors. There is one period
of time between 8 o'clock and 12:30, there are three people on that shift. Yet
between 10 p.m. and 4:30 a.m.; there is no one on the shift. So something needs to
happen here. We need to be proactive and make sure there's a manager, there's a
park ranger available to do the enforcement since it seems like the caretakers are
not going to be involved in that area. So I think that's one area we really need to be
proactive about.
The second is the manpower needs that Councilmember Rapozo brought up.
In my discussions with Lenny Rapozo, he said that they typically use the national
park service standard of one employee per 10 acres. So when you look at the
acreage at Lydgate Park —I just looked it up here —it's 57 acres. So if you do the
math, that's 5.7 employees. Now what concerned me is the discussion from
Ms. Mindoro about employees being asked to also take care of maintenance along
Wailua Beach, which further expands the acreage of the park. So again, I think it's
something that we really need to take a close look at. Now the service standard is
something that I've been trying to do some research around and I've asked staff to
do some additional research to look at park standards from other areas and so forth.
I have not gotten anything back, but in the meantime I did contact NACo to see if
the research department could put us in touch with a national park maintenance
standard per worker and they have been unsuccessful to this date and they have
been going through their networks but have not...
Council Chair Furfaro: But that's what we got from Virginia?
Ms. Nakamura: Yeah, so that's useful, but I think that's where we
need to go. We need to get some good information about what are some good
standards to be using so that we're not over burdening our workers.
And on the lighting issue, our family we love to camp and part of the fun for
the kids is not having lights. That's why you bring your flashlights and your
lanterns. So to me, that's less of an issue for this type of proposed use.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: I'm not going to go down all the list because of
everything that's been discussed because I've been focused and discussing parks for
20 years and there's no question that we would all like to see a better level of
maintenance. Right now the administration has and we saw the report today, they
have three park workers funded that are currently... they're not hiring. That's their
COUNCIL MEETING -118- September 7, 2011
choice to do that. We can encourage them, we can fund them as we have, but at
some point there's a separation of powers issue.
I do want to say something about the lighting, however. Have you been down
there at night? The restroom facility, a lot of people have told us to turn off half
those lights and it's a fairly compact area, so I really don't think lighting ... I don't
think we'd want to put more lights in that area. I personally, and I have said this
in the past, would like to see some security lighting around the bridge area, which is
outside of the campground with like PV because we have that. Parks continue to
evolve and I've said this before. The people of Kauai want better parks. They want
their neighborhood parks to improve. They voted for a parks department. We're
spending a lot more money in parks. They have better equipment than they did
before, they have better staffing than they did before, but we're not done. I think
we were really on an upward swing and then we hit these economic times where
there was a choice to hold off on hiring even vacant positions and the dollar- funded
positions, and it impacted county services not just in parks but in drivers licenses
and in all of the services we provide, so it's finding that balance. We're going to be
discussing tax and revenue issues. I said during the budget session, and I felt this
for some time that the council needs to focus more on revenues and less on ... not less
but equally with expenditures because anybody can look at the budget sessions for
the last five years and see that there's been very little discussion from the council
on the revenue side. We're going to get to that this year because we have tax bills
coming before us and because I'm going to bring forward some initiatives. But I
think it's time to open the campgrounds at Lydgate Park. Remember theses
campgrounds were built largely by volunteers almost six years ago and government
moves slowly and this is a prime example. So I hope we continue and I know we
will continue to talk about park standards. We are doing a parks master plan,
which many of us supported in the past to fund that because there are not just
national standards about maintenance, there's national standards about facilities.
Many of us worked hard to get sports fields at Lydgate Park because there was a
dire need and we still don't have the field space that we need. There is an 11 -acre
parcel in Kapa`a that we did the planning on to do additional field space and it got
stalled for two or three years because of other priorities from the new
administration. Hopefully we're getting back on track with that. So parks will
continue to evolve and I'll just look back at anybody that's been at Lydgate over the
last 20 years knows that it's a very important park for local people. It's vastly
improved from where it was 20 years ago and overall the expansion of services has
been a positive thing and I believe opening the campgrounds will too. Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, Mr. Chang.
Mr. Chang: Thank you, Chairman. I'm going to be supporting
the opening of the park. We have had a lot of discussions prior to myself being on
the council, but I think it's about time that we at least give it a gallant effort and
try. We have all talked about the staffing and I think Mr. Rapozo, Lenny, was well
aware of the scheduling opportunities that we can better staff that area. So from
talking with the people I did have concern about lighting, but most of the people
that I talked with would echo everything that we said, the Nakamura family here to
my right that utilizes flashlights. That's the fun part about the old days. We all
had flashlights and see which beam can shoot farther or what have you and of
course we all had lanterns. First thing when Councilmember Kuali`i gracefully
thought about the fisherman, I've always thought about strength in numbers. So in
addition to campers looking out for campers, fishermen are looking out for campers,
campers are looking out for fishermen. Throughout the course of the day in a
24 -hour period you're bound to make friends and I believe that people will be
watching over people. You know we always talk about 20 years ago, I don't know
COUNCIL MEETING -119- September 7, 2011
what happened 20 years ago, I don't know what the grounds were like 20 years ago,
but I do believe that in this modern age of communication almost everyone has a
cell phone, almost everyone has some sort of electronic device that there is
communication. I guess in this day and age people Facebook, they tweet. It's being
fun or maybe there's ways of people creating red flags, but I do believe that in this
day and age this could actually be one of the safest places because when people
actually enjoy the park and enjoy their experiences, they'll tell others and they'll
welcome people about let's not look at the past but look at what the future
opportunities and the benefits can be for outdoor and for recreation.
I do want to just say that statistically this will give us the time that we need,
the 60 days plus, because during the winter you get less demand as far as pulling
permits to camp, number one, and we all know that eastern corridor is prone to
your regular trade wind showers more heavily obviously during the winter, but this
will give an opportunity to prepare for the busy Easter break or the summer months
and what have you, and then will probably relieve some opportunities that normally
you'll get packed out at other campsites, so I think it's a great opportunity. The
council as well as the administration knows of the concerns and I believe we have
enough time to address those concerns and we have to start at some point and I
believe that the. time is now. So I'm going to be supporting this bill, thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Councilmember Kuali`i.
Mr. Kuali`i: So I'm hearing all the votes, but I have to say that
like Councilmember Nakamura, I have some reservations regarding enforcement
and scheduling. And then beyond that with staffing in general and she talked
about the acreage and you know Lenny Rapozo talked about what number of staff
was originally hired and what they were intended for, but that was back in 2004,
and it would have been helpful if parks and rec, working with UPW and HGEA, did
some kind of current job audit to tell us what it's like today. Lots have changed
since 2004. The use of the park has changed, their ability to meet those
maintenance needs have changed, and I think we're just setting ourselves up for
failure. And you know 60 days, the next six months, I hope they just deal with it,
make it work. Lydgate is very important to our local people and I would call it our
flagship regional park, and so we should start here with the high standards that
you talk about, Mr. Chair. I don't think we should say, oh, it's been okay at this
park or that park, so it can be okay here. I think we should, like the Chair said,
start that new standard. And the enforcement issue, the safety issue, those things
are all outstanding, unresolved and unaddressed, and in many of my questions, the
answers were no, we're not going to do that, just no, we're not going to do it, not
we'll look at it in the future as far as expansion based on needs and whatever. It's
just no, no, no. So I cannot support this bill and the statement was made that well,
if you don't support camping at the parks, just vote no because you don't support
camping at the parks. I support camping at the parks. I just support us doing it in
the right way and I really appreciate the support I got for the overnight fishing
amendment. I think that's really important. I personally know it's important and I
know serious fishermen who do fish in that area and I'm glad they will be able to
continue doing that. Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Vice Chair, did you want to speak before I do? I'm
going to speak last.
Ms. Yukimura: It's up to you. Yeah, if you want to speak last, I'll
speak now.
Council Chair Furfaro: I prefer to speak last, go ahead.
COUNCIL MEETING -120- September 7, 2011
Ms. Yukimura: Thank you, Chair. Well, my family loves camping
and yes, our lighting, our flashlights and lighting is flashlights and lanterns. So I
don't think it's an issue. I do believe there are issues that have been spoken here
around the table. I went to Lydgate two days in a row this past Labor Day weekend
and I actually swam in the pond to check out the mud but also to talk to many of
the people there as well as one of the workers. My biggest memory is of so many
people enjoying themselves from young to old and you know what a precious
resource this park is. I think by adding camping in a methodical way, we're going
to increase the value of the park to our people. I agree that there are some issues
that we need to improve. I don't necessarily think it's from a lack of standards as
much as it is, especially after talking to this employee, a problem of unclear roles
and procedures. To me that's a management issue. So even before we add
employees, we need to have management attention and analysis of what the issues
are and how to really support our employees and better our services to the public. I
heard a great sincerity in Mr. Rapozo. He has a huge job, he really needs some
help, and the managers under him need to really be pulling their full weight as
well. This is an administrative issue. I hope the mayor is listening to this because
if we have really good management, they'll be the first to come here and ask us for
more positions, and they'll be able to justify it. But they can't do that without really
knowing the situation well and analyzing it. I think that's where the issue is. And
one of the issues raised by both Ms. Mindoro and the employee was training of
supervisors, yes of employees but more so of supervisors because that's where the
management comes. That's where I think the improvements and breakthroughs
need to come and that's not something we can address by this bill; it really is by the
administration. So I want this plea to be registered to the administration and I
hope that they'll respond.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, I support camping at Lydgate and that's the
first statement I want to make. I also want to say that the fuse set for 60 days on
being ready for this was by request by the administration many years ago by a
councilmember that is no longer on our council but did fulfill the request. I think
the fuse is pretty short, but hey, it came from the administration. So when we
implement this, we're implementing what you said was the standard. There is an
urgency on some of these improvements and councilwomen, I want to say to you
that the roles that individuals play and the procedures that are set are what equal
the standards, okay?
Ms. Yukimura: Okay, thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Therefore it is management's role to establish these
procedures and then communicate and train the staff. That needs to happen. In
the material that I gave to the parks department today, there was a third part to
that that dealt with the training of park supervision, so that is with the
administration now. The stewardship of this is regarding, right now first blush, a
partial opening, a partial opening. And as I had mentioned, over the years we've
talked about this and for your information, Councilwoman Nakamura, it was
proposed to us at one time that the best standard would be one employee in a
40 -hour work week for every 12 acres. So that formula alone that was shared with
us says, hey, we're one staff short as it is and I hope the union is able to resolve
that question with the administration because that's really their kuleana. I also
gave them some of the standards from Virginia Beach and their campsites and their
parks; I hope they work on it. There is an opportunity to improve the level of
maintenance, but that starts with the roles and procedures that equal standards
and that's why I refer to this as a very short fuse that they set for themselves.
COUNCIL MEETING -121- September 7, 2011
I also want to remind all of you that I looked all over the rules that said
basically if something comes out of committee 3 -0, how do I prevent it from getting
on the council agenda as the Council Chair? Well, I will remind all of you I made a
statement then if you're not ready to let it come out I might send it back to you or
the other option is hey, I might take 120 days to put it on the agenda, so be
prepared. You know, Waianae, no guts no glory, but at the same time you go to the
locker room you going cry, all I going hand you is the towel, okay. So consider
yourselves understanding my standard as the chair. I have that 120 -day window.
I also want to say that the issue with the pond is still going to come up in the
first week of November in the committee of November 9th or it could come up on the
council on November 2nd. That is within the 60 day fuse that we're giving to the
administration and I hope they did hear us today and they give us the courtesy of
an update before the implementation because I'm going to support this today. On
that note we have a motion, we have a second as amended, and I'm going to ask for
a roll call from the clerk.
The motion to approve Bill No. 2149, Draft 4, as amended, was then put, and
carried by the following vote:
FOR ADOPTION: Bynum, Chang, Nakamura, Yukimura, Furfaro TOTAL — 5,
AGAINST ADOPTION: Kuali`i, Rapozo TOTAL — 2,
EXCUSED & NOT VOTING: None TOTAL — 0.
Mr. Nakamura: Five ayes, two noes, Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. And I would like to have a footnote
sent over reminding the parks department of the upcoming piece to report on
Lydgate Pond and also requesting an update on the short fuse that we just
approved. Thank you. everyone.
We're at an issue with a dinner break.
George, we've got a lot more on our agenda today, including executive
session, and I understand you are willing to go back and do some work while we
take a dinner break. And I want to be fair with our staff. So we are going to come
back here at 7:40 p.m. and we'll take your item up then. We are in a recess.
Councilmember Rapozo was noted excused at 6:37 p.m.
There being no objection, the meeting was recessed at 6:38 p.m.
The meeting was called back to order at 7:48 p.m.
Council Chair Furfaro: Aloha everyone and we are back from our dinner
break. If I can have a moment of personal privilege, there are some things I want to
point out. We do have, for the remainder of the meeting, an excuse letter for
COUNCIL MEETING -122- September 7, 2011
Mel Rapozo who is traveling to the mainland. He has left the meeting to take care
of some prior commitments. I believe this is associated with his son's college
activities on the mainland.
Secondly, I passed out to you folks, because I'll be meeting tomorrow morning
with the architect, I have been trying to keep you posted on developments with the
Historic County Building and you did get a circulation from me regarding key
assignments. This is what it looks like. I put it in front of you earlier and if you
want to breeze through it, the fact of the matter is these items are color coded for
where we have electric keys, where we have group keys, and when we have single
keys. If you want more detail, it is available with Ihilani, but this is the piece last
week that we had a working agreement with as it comes to key control for the
Historic Building as we begin to move in next week, so that's just an FYI for you.
We're back from dinner; we're on a new item, and I will turn to the county clerk to
read the new item.
Mr. Nakamura: Council Chair, we're on page 6 of the Council's
agenda on Bills for First Reading. We're on Proposed Draft Bill (No. 2415).
BILLS FOR FIRST READING:
Proposed Draft Bill (No. 2415) — A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE AMENDING
CHAPTER 5A, KAUXI COUNTY CODE 1987, AS AMENDED, RELATING TO
EXEMPTIONS FOR COMMERCIAL ALTERNATIVE ENERGY FACILITIES
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much and thank you George for
staying for us as this has been an item that has been through the Economic
Development Office, it has also been identified in our Sustainability Plan that
Council Vice Chair Yukimura and myself sat on over the last two years and I guess
the next step is really to be able to refer it to the Economic Development Committee
and that's the purpose of you being here. So, please, I'll suspend the rules.
There being no objections, the rules were suspended.
GEORGE COSTA, DIRECTOR, Office of Economic Development: Aloha
Council Chair and Councilmembers, for the record George Costa, Director for the
Office of Economic Development. I'm here today or this evening to propose the
commercial alternative energy exemption. Basically we went through the Kauai
Energy Sustainability Plan; we proposed or presented several recommendations,
but when you look at it and in order for us to move forward on weaning ourselves off
of fossil fuels and really promoting renewable energy, the county really has, as far
as options to create either incentives or impose taxes, to really look at renewable
energy pieces and here is one way we felt that by providing an incentive for
landowners or developers of renewable energy to realize a tax exemption. For the
county it's not so much to create more revenues for the county but just to get
developers out there that have renewable energy technologies to invest in Kauai
and help us get to our goal on becoming more self sustaining on energy.
Council Chair Furfaro: I wanted to share something with you that I would
hope ... let's see everyone is on that Committee, Economic Development, with the
exception, I believe, of Councilmember Kuali`i and myself, but on page 38, and I'm
going to give my plan to Councilman Kuali`i, there's some interesting setting
sustainability for electric price targets. In other words, this component is obviously
the only thing we could enhance it with is being able to give some incentive in the
property tax category. But the reality and I would like to make sure we're able to
get some more information from economic development is one of the incentives was
COUNCIL MEETING -123- September 7, 2011
the federal tax credit which could be as much as 30 percent of the project. Secondly,
there are state tax credits available equal to about 24.5 percent of the investment
cost. And then there's the rate that KIUC would buy per kilowatt from the investor.
Those are the three important components. Recently we had a project with an
investment of about $5.1 million in the county. They got a 30 percent federal tax
credit, then they got a 24.5 percent state credit, which brought the taxable portion
of the project down to $2.3 million.
From the standpoint and my gosh I left my glasses in my office, I'll have to
review this by memory. I would like economic development to get us some more
information as it relates to these federal and state tax credits that they qualify for
because it's part of the overall incentive for them.
Mr. Costa:
Right.
Council Chair Furfaro: So by the time they get down to a net cost and we're
looking at a rate of return of about 10 percent, they could in fact find themselves in
a difficult place if they're not able to generate $237,000.00 worth of revenue in any
one year. But as I reviewed this project, their projected revenue which they put in
front of planning is roughly about $330,000. So that's a good investment from the
standpoint of the return on the revenues. But I think, George, we need to
understand when it gets to committee, we need to understand the principles behind
this federal tax credit. We need to understand the principles behind the state tax
credits that they qualify for and I think that's something that we would really like
to have Glenn be able to share with us in a couple weeks.
As we go forward, I also want to say that this schedule that I thought was a
realistic piece on the Energy Sustainability Plan indicated that maybe they could
get about twenty -eight cents ($0.28) a kilowatt from selling the electricity to the
utility company, but the proposal that I saw that were checked off on the recovery
from KIUC is only twenty cents ($0.20) a kilowatt. So we're not totally
understanding this piece. I mean that's as much as 40 percent less than what we
thought they would get for the purchase of electricity back to the plant.
Mr. Costa: Well at the time the plan was created or put
together, again Doug Hinrichs, our consultant, made it clear that it's based on the
commodities, the price of oil at the time and what the financing vehicle would be,
depending on the type of renewable energy we're looking at. So what we could do is
based on some actual projects that we have existing, what the tax benefit would be
as an example. Is that what you would like to see?
Council Chair Furfaro: Yes and what I'm saying is that as we refer this to
Committee it would be very nice to have a clear understanding because our property
tax piece at the end is a very small piece of the encouragement to get these people to
invest in alternative energies.
Mr. Costa:
Right.
Council Chair Furfaro: I mean they're really looking to the federal tax
credits, the state tax credits, the ability to sell the power to KIUC, and I think it
would behoove the committee, from our Energy Sustainability Plan, to have a clear
understanding of that.
Mr. Costa: That can be done.
Council Chair Furfaro: That's what I'm asking you to prepare for.
COUNCIL MEETING -124- September 7, 2011
Mr. Costa: Okay, but from our standpoint we just wanted to,
from the County level, provide an incentive out there which basically, the way it's
written, would be 100 percent of the improvements and 50 percent of the assessed
land value.
Council Chair Furfaro: Yes.
Mr. Costa: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: But I think that's real important. I know it's late
in the evening, members, do you have other questions for Mr. Costa?
Mr. Bynum:
Council Chair Furfaro:
I have just a short question.
Sure, go ahead.
Mr. Bynum: I just want to thank the administration for
separating this bill out from the previous package, and it's important because we're
competitive for those investor dollars and especially for a large plan to be taxed on
the improvements could make the difference. Oahu passed this incentive two years
ago.
Mr. Costa: Right.
Mr. Bynum: So I just want to thank the administration for
separating it out and yes, I think it is an important piece. Thank you.
Mr. Costa: You're welcome.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you for recognizing that Mr. Bynum. Any
other questions of George? Sir, I'm sorry we kept you so long for this period of time.
Mr. Costa: That's okay. I'm working on APEC so I'll be here
for a while.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay. But I do request that we're prepared when
this comes to economic development.
Mr. Costa: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay.
Mr. Costa: If I can ask what kind of timeframe we're looking
at?
Council Chair Furfaro: That's actually in three weeks, the 28th of
September. The 21st we're back in a council meeting, the 28th we're in committee.
Mr. Costa: All right.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, so members, I'm looking for a...
Ms. Yukimura: Public hearing is October 5th, though.
COUNCIL MEETING -125- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, thank you. George, I've been corrected.
They're asking that we refer it to the 5th for public hearing first, I'm sorry.
Mr. Costa: Okay.
Council Chair Furfaro: My apologies.
There being no objections, the meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as
follows:
Mr. Kuali`i moved for passage of Proposed Draft Bill (No. 2415) on first
reading, that it be ordered to print, that a public hearing thereon be scheduled for
October 5, 2011, and that it thereafter be referred to the Economic Development &
Renewable Energy Strategies Committee, seconded by Ms. Yukimura, and carried
by the following vote:
FOR PASSAGE: Bynum, Chang, Kuah'i, Nakamura,
Yukimura, Furfaro
TOTAL
— 6,
AGAINST PASSAGE: None
TOTAL
— 0,
EXCUSED & NOT VOTING:
Rapozo
TOTAL
—1.
Mr. Nakamura:
Six ayes, Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro:
Thank you very much.
George, again thank
you
very much.
Mr. Costa:
You're welcome.
Mr. Nakamura: Council Chair, we're back on page 3 of the council's
agenda on a communication for approval at the bottom of page 3, communication
C 2011 -257.
C 2001 -257 Communication (09/01/2011) from Councilmember Chang,
requesting Council consideration of the following donations from various sources for
the upcoming Board of Directors Meeting of the Western Interstate Region (WIR) of
the National Association of Counties (NACo):
• Smiths Boat — boat ride to the Fern Grotto for all WIR
participants /guests ($1600 est. value)
• Polynesian Adventure Tours — bus transportation for one day
($1600 est. value)
• Roberts Tours — bus transportation for one day ($1300 est. value)
• Kaua`i Museum — admission ($80 est. value)
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much. These are the gratis
contributions for disclosure and therefore first of all I'm very pleased that we were
able to solicit the Western Board of Directors to be here on Kauai. Thank you very
much for that Mr. Chang and Councilwoman Nakamura, you do have an active role
in this group now?
Ms. Nakamura: I will. We're making the transition.
Council Chair Furfaro: Oh, you're making the transition, okay very good.
So this is to approve these estimates as a gift that was during their stay.
Ms. Yukimura moved to approve C 2011 -257, seconded by Mr. Bynum.
COUNCIL MEETING -126- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: Any discussion?
Ms. Yukimura: Mr. Chair, I just wanted to thank Councilmember
Chang. He really did a wonderful job of soliciting this visit here. It's going to build
the bonds and relationships for our future lobbying efforts, and it also is going to
give good exposure to our island, and of course Mr. Chang is Mr. Aloha and that's
how he did it, that's how he got them over here, so thank you very much, Dickie.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you for the work. Councilmember Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Just echo that, thank you Dickie and also I know
that we will send thank -you letters as appropriate.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes.
Council Chair Furfaro: Any further discussion on this item? Mr. Chang.
Mr. Chang: Thank you. I just wanted to say thank you very
much. Western Interstate Region compiles of the 15 Western States, but it's the
largest part of basically the continental USA, so these people are very excited. I
remember first meeting many of them in my first term as a rookie, not knowing
what was going on, but I was already starting to solicit them in Tillamook, Oregon
and continued on at Washington D.C. So when they called to say, hey, I think we
would like to come to Kauai, I said, well thank you very much, let me figure out
how we can make this happen. I was able to look at the rooming list. We had an
updated list today and many of those that sit on as directors of the Western
Interstate Region are also NACo directors. So when we talk about the national
exposure and talk about the magnitude of those attendees, I think it's a very good
thing for the island of Kauai. Basically these are decision makers and I hope soon
within the future they might consider Kauai for a larger, large scale national
conference here on our island of Kauai. So thank you all very much for the support.
They're all very excited and I think we have an exciting agenda for all of them.
Thank you very much.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Councilwoman?
Ms. Yukimura: Yes, one additional comment. You know I really
want to acknowledge the donors here: Smith's Boat, Polynesian Adventure Tours,
Robert Tours and Kauai Museum. I was talking to Sue Kanoho at the marathon
actually and praising and thanking her for the way that she has helped to market
Kauai and she pointed out that one of the strong points of Kauai is that we have
people that work together and that there are all these vendors and others involved
in the visitor industry who stepped forward, and then with Kauai Visitors Bureau
and also with George Costa and KEDB and all the different entities that come
together and actually work together, that's the secret of Kaua`i's success. So
mahalo to these donors.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you for those comments. So on this
particular item, we have a motion and a second, and all those in favor, signify by
saying aye.
The motion to approve C 2011 -257 was then put, and unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much. Next item Mr. Clerk.
COUNCIL MEETING -127- September 7, 2011
Mr. Nakamura: We're on page 4 of the council's agenda on a Legal
Document, Council Chair, communication C 2011 -258.
LEGAL DOCUMENT:
C 2011 -258 Communication (08/24/2011) from Mona Clark, Deputy County
Attorney, recommending approval of the following:
Grant of Easement by Kauai Habitat for Humanity conveying
Easement W -1 and Easement W -2, Kauai Habitat for Humanity,
`Ele`ele Iluna Phase 2 (Subdivision No. S- 2006 -49), situated in `Ele`ele,
Koloa District, Kauai, Hawaii, Tax Map Key No. (4) 2- 1- 001:054, to
the Board of Water Supply, County of Kauai, for waterline purposes.
Mr. Bynum moved to approve C 2011 -258, seconded by Ms. Yukimura.
Council Chair Furfaro: Any discussion? I would like to just disclose that I
am no longer the President of Habitat for Humanity, although I've served on the
Board for nine years and I was president twice. My terms have all expired and so I
will be voting on this item. Any further discussion? If not, all those in favor, signify
by saying aye.
The motion to approve C 2011 -258 was then put, and unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much. Next item please.
Mr. Nakamura: Council Chair, the next items are claims,
communication C 2011 -260, C 2011 -261, C 2011 -262, C 2011 -263 and C 2011 -264.
CLAIMS:
C 2011 -260 Communication (08/15/2011) from the County Clerk,
transmitting a claim filed against the County of Kauai by Farmers Insurance
Hawaii, as subrogee for Domingo A. Acupan, for damage to his vehicle, pursuant to
Section 23.06, Charter of the County of Kauai.
C 2011 -261 Communication (08/15/2011) from the County Clerk,
transmitting a claim filed against the County of Kauai by Linda Gonsalves for
damage to property, pursuant to Section 23.06, Charter of the County of Kauai.
C 2011 -262 Communication (08/23/2011) from the County Clerk,
transmitting a claim filed against the County of Kauai by Chason Mano`i for
damage to his vehicle, pursuant to Section 23.06, Charter of the County of Kauai.
C 2011 -263 Communication (08/24/2011) from the County Clerk,
transmitting a claim filed against the County of Kauai by Joe R. Licona for loss of
his personal property, pursuant to Section 23.06, Charter of the County of Kauai.
C 2011 -264 Communication (08/25/2011) from the County Clerk,
transmitting a claim filed against the County of Kauai by Gavin Sakagawa for
damage to his vehicle, pursuant to Section 23.06, Charter of the County of Kauai.
Mr. Kuali`i moved to refer C 2011 -260, C 2011 -261, C 2011 -262, C 2011 -263
and C 2011 -264 to the County Attorney's Office for disposition and/or report
back to the Council, seconded by Ms. Yukimura, and unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Next item.
COUNCIL MEETING -128- September 7, 2011
Mr. Nakamura: On page 5 of the council's agenda, next matters for
approvals are Committee Reports.
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
FINANCE /PARKS & RECREATION/
PUBLIC WORKS PROGRAMS COMMITTEE REPORT:
A report (No. CR -FPP 2011 -06) submitted by the Finance / Parks &
Recreation / Public Works Programs Committee, recommending that the following
be received for the record:
"FPP 2011 -04 Communication (6/30/2011) from Committee Chair
Tim Bynum, requesting agenda time for Larry Dill, County Engineer, to
discuss item C 2011 -75, relating to Kapaia Swinging Bridge and report the
Consultant's recommendation and response as it relates to the feasibility and
costs of stabilizing the Kapaia Swinging Bridge," and
"FPP 2011 -05 Communication (7/14/2011) from Councilmember
JoAnn Yukimura, requesting agenda time for Larry Dill, County Engineer, to
report and discuss the stabilization of the Kapaia Swinging Bridge as it
relates to the structural safety and cost associated with a temporary fix of the
bridge,"
Mr. Bynum moved for approval of the report, seconded by Mr. Chang, and
unanimously carried.
A report (No. CR -FPP 2011 -07) submitted by the Finance / Parks &
Recreation / Public Works Programs Committee, recommending that the following
be received for the record:
"FPP 2011 -06 Communication (7/08/2011) from Committee Chair
Tim Bynum, requesting agenda time for the Administration, to discuss the
`Performance Audit of the Implementation of the Recommendations of the
Cost Control Commission Concerning Energy Savings,' and to provide an
update on the recommendations submitted by the Cost Control Commission
in 2009,"
Mr. Bynum moved for approval of the report, seconded by Mr. Chang, and
unanimously carried.
A report (No. CR -FPP 2011 -08) submitted by the Finance / Parks &
Recreation / Public Works Programs Committee, recommending that the following
be approved as amended on second and final reading:
"Bill No. 2149, Draft 3 — A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE
AMENDING SECTION 19 -2.1 AND ADDING A NEW ARTICLE TO
CHAPTER 19 OF THE KAUAI COUNTY CODE 1987, RELATING TO
CAMPING AT LYDGATE PARK,"
Mr. Bynum moved for approval of the report, seconded by Mr. Chang, and
unanimously carried. (See later for Bill no. 2149, Draft 4)
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Next item.
COUNCIL MEETING -129- September 7, 2011
Mr. Nakamura: Next matters for approval are Resolutions. First
Resolution is Resolution No. 2011 -68.
RESOLUTIONS:
Resolution No. 2011 -68, RESOLUTION AMENDING RESOLUTION
NO. 2009 -08, AS AMENDED BY RESOLUTION NO. 2010 -93 TO REPLACE AND
CONFIRM THE APPOINTMENT OF A MAYORAL APPOINTEE TO THE COST
CONTROL COMMISSION ( Arryl Kaneshiro): Mr. Kuali`i moved to adopt
Resolution No. 2011 -68, seconded by Ms. Yukimura.
Council Chair Furfaro: Any comments? This will be a roll call. Council
Vice Chair.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes, I just want to say that I was very impressed
with Mr. Kaneshiro, his forthright answers, his desire to serve his community, and
it's wonderful to see young people coming home and then participating in
government. So I'm happy to vote for this resolution.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Mr. Chang?
Mr. Chang: Thank you, I would like to echo Vice Chair
Yukimura. I've known Arryl for a long, long time and never saw him in a serious
motion; however, I do believe that he answered the questions like he was on it and I
don't believe any of it was rehearsed. So I just want to thank him and I was really
impressed with his background and I think he fits the position extremely well, and I
think it's a perfect match. And being a certified public accountant, I think at this
particular commission, I believe that he's going to do a great job. So I just want to
say thank you and congratulations for volunteering to contribute to the community.
Thank you very much.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Any further discussion before we do a
roll call vote? I also would like to say as a CPA, he's a great addition to the cost
control commission, and CPAs, they usually only deal with the facts. So I'm very
proud to support this young man as well. Let's call for a vote.
The motion for adoption of Resolution No. 2011 -68 was then put, and carried
by the following vote:
FOR ADOPTION:
AGAINST ADOPTION:
EXCUSED & NOT VOTING:
Mr. Nakamura:
Council Chair Furfaro:
Bynum, Chang, Kuali`i, Nakamura,
Yukimura, Furfaro TOTAL — 6,
None TOTAL — 0,
Rapozo TOTAL —1.
Six ayes, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Next item.
Mr. Nakamura: Next resolution for approval is Resolution
No. 2011 -69.
Resolution No. 2011 -69, RESOLUTION REPEALING RESOLUTION
NO. 54 -91, SECTION XIII, ITEM 31 RELATING TO THE TWENTY -FIVE
(25) MILES PER HOUR SPEED LIMIT ON NIHO ROAD, AND ESTABLISHING A
NEW MAXIMUM SPEED LIMIT OF FIFTEEN (15) MILES PER HOUR ALONG
COUNCIL MEETING -130- September 7, 2011
THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF NIHO ROAD, K6LOA DISTRICT, COUNTY OF
KAUAI, STATE OF HAWAII: Ms. Yukimura moved to adopt Resolution
No. 2011 -69, seconded by Mr. Chang.
Council Chair Furfaro: Any discussion? Mr. Chang.
Mr. Chang: Thank you Chairman, and Chairman thank you
very much for introducing this resolution. I just want to say thank you because I
think when you're out there walking or you're biking or you're running and we've
had this discussion, you can't believe how fast and sadly people drive around here
and it's very dangerous, very, very dangerous. Sometimes 15 miles an hour might
seem like it's an eternity and very, very slow, but in all due respect, the reason that
you lower the speed limit is just because it's not only hazardous but the roads are
narrow, and there are pedestrians, and there are kids, and there are other people.
So I believe that this should be an awareness for all of us residents to realize to slow
down and be careful, and I can't stop to always think about what my mom always
used to say, it's better five minutes late than never. So I want to just say thank you
and I wholeheartedly support this. Mahalo.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Any additional discussion? If not, roll
call please.
The motion for adoption of Resolution No. 2011 -69 was then put, and carried
by the following vote:
FOR ADOPTION: Bynum, Chang, Kuali`i, Nakamura,
Yukimura, Furfaro TOTAL — 6,
AGAINST ADOPTION: None TOTAL — 0,
EXCUSED & NOT VOTING: Rapozo TOTAL — 1.
Mr. Nakamura: Six ayes, Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you.
Mr. Nakamura: Next matters on page 8 are Bills for First Reading.
First Bill for First Reading is Proposed Draft Bill (No. 2412).
BILLS FOR FIRST READING:
Proposed Draft Bill (No. 2412) — A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE TO
ESTABLISH A NEW ARTICLE 20, CHAPTER 22, KAUAI COUNTY CODE 1987,
AS AMENDED, RELATING TO UNLAWFUL CONSUMPTION, POSSESSION OR
CONTROL OF INTOXICATING LIQUOR WITHIN PARKING LOTS AND
GROUNDS ADJACENT TO THE HISTORIC COUNTY BUILDING, COUNTY
ANNEX AND LIHU`E CIVIC CENTER: Ms. Yukimura moved for passage of
Proposed Draft Bill (No. 2412) on first reading, that it be ordered to print, that a
public hearing thereon be scheduled for October 5, 2011, and that it thereafter be
referred to the Finance /Parks & Recreation/Public Works Programs Committee,
seconded by Mr. Chang.
Council Chair Furfaro: Again, I just want to point out in 1983 not only the
Historic County Building but also the Annex and the Court House were in an all
encompassing resolution that made that historic district. And as we move back,
even if it's a soft opening this week, this is intended to be able to control the
unlawful consumption of alcohol around those historic buildings and when we do
business. It's very unfortunate, recently we've actually had some alcoholic bottles
COUNCIL MEETING -131- September 7, 2011
thrown through the new building, through the glass door, and we need to get a hold
of it. We have a lot of pride in that building. As I said it was the first territorial
building built in the Territory of Hawaii, and it will be 98 years old next year. And
this is a historic district by resolution in 1983. You were mayor then.
Ms. Yukimura: Not 1983. 1993.
Council Chair Furfaro: Oh okay ... sorry about that.
Ms. Yukimura: 1983 I was 33 years old.
Council Chair Furfaro: Okay, very good. So Council Vice Chair.
Ms. Yukimura: Yeah, I appreciate your introduction of these two
bills that we're looking at now and I'm hoping that it will enable us to sort of take
that open green space back so to speak. It's a beautiful green space in Lihu`e Town
and it used to have picnic tables and people used to be able to lunch there, so it
would be nice if we can get back to that.
Council Chair Furfaro: That's the intent and the direction. I'll also share
that at the next item when we come up on it.
Ms. Yukimura: Thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: Any further discussion? If not, this will be a roll
call vote please.
The motion for passage of Proposed Draft Bill (No. 2412) on first reading,
that it be ordered to print, that a public hearing thereon be scheduled for October 5,
2011, and that it thereafter be referred to the Finance /Parks & Recreation/Public
Works Programs Committee was then put, and carried by the following vote:
FOR PASSAGE: Bynum, Chang, Kuali`i, Nakamura,
Yukimura, Furfaro TOTAL — 6,
AGAINST PASSAGE: None TOTAL — 0,
EXCUSED & NOT VOTING: Rapozo TOTAL —1.
Mr. Nakamura: Six ayes, Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Next item.
Mr. Nakamura: Next bill for first reading is Proposed Draft Bill
(No. 2413).
Proposed Draft Bill (No. 2413) — A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE TO
ESTABLISH A NEW ARTICLE 21, CHAPTER 22, KAUAI COUNTY CODE 1987,
AS AMENDED, RELATING TO URINATING OR DEFECATING IN PUBLIC
AREAS ADJACENT TO THE HISTORIC COUNTY BUILDING, COUNTY ANNEX
AND L1HU`E CIVIC CENTER: Mr. Chang moved for passage of Proposed Draft
Bill No. 2413 on first reading, that it be ordered to print, that a public hearing
thereon be scheduled for October 5, 2011, and that it thereafter be referred to the
Finance /Parks & Recreation/Public Works Programs Committee, seconded by
Ms. Yukimura.
COUNCIL MEETING -132- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro: I would also like to say we are hoping that as we
implement these two pieces in the historic area that we can also begin dialogue
again with re- landscaping some of the view plains there that were present and
hopefully be in a good position for an open house on May 9, 2012. Any further
discussion? Okay, may we have a roll call vote, please?
The motion for passage of Proposed Draft Bill (No. 2413) on first reading,
that it be ordered to print, that a public hearing thereon be scheduled for October 5,
2011, and that it thereafter be referred to the Finance /Parks & Recreation/Public
Works Programs Committee was then put, and carried by the following vote:
FOR PASSAGE: Bynum, Chang, Kuali`i, Nakamura,
Yukimura, Furfaro TOTAL — 6,
AGAINST PASSAGE: None TOTAL — 0,
EXCUSED & NOT VOTING: Rapozo TOTAL — 1.
Mr. Nakamura: Six ayes, Mr. Chair.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Next item please.
Mr. Nakamura: Last Bill for first reading is Proposed Draft Bill
(No. 2414).
Proposed Draft Bill (No. 2414) — A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE TO AMEND
ORDINANCE NO. B- 2011 -732, AS AMENDED, RELATING TO THE OPERATING
BUDGET OF THE COUNTY OF KAUAI, STATE OF HAWAII FOR THE FISCAL
YEAR JULY 1, 2011 THROUGH JUNE 30, 2012 BY REVISING THE SURPLUS
AND APPROPRIATIONS ESTIMATED IN THE GENERAL FUND ($5,600.00 —
Office of the County Clerk): Ms. Yukimura moved for passage of Proposed Draft Bill
(No. 2414) on first reading, that it be ordered to print, that a public hearing thereon
be scheduled for October 5, 2011, and that it thereafter be referred to the Economic
Development & Renewable Energy Strategies Committee, seconded by Mr. Bynum.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much. Again, I wanted to for the
purpose of disclosure, this is during WIR's visit over a four -day period that we
would host them one evening for the purpose of putting some estimates in here for
that event. I also want to point out that I'm having some research done on some
line items that we already have in the budget dealing with legislative activities,
consulting services, and special projects. So this money may not be new money, but
I think it's the appropriate thing to have full disclosure if we're going to host an
event.
Ms. Yukimura: So Mr. Chair, to clarify then, we'll go through a
public hearing but it's quite possible that we'll be able to find the moneys internally
and not have to really go through with this appropriation?
Council Chair Furfaro: That's correct.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes, okay, thank you.
Council Chair Furfaro: I do want to point out in the previous year those
same accounts that I mentioned were actually $30,860.00 more than what we
actually spent a year ago.
Ms. Yukimura: Thank you.
COUNCIL MEETING -133- September 7, 2011
Council Chair Furfaro:
favor, sorry, roll call again.
Okay. Any further discussion? If not, all those in
The motion for passage of Proposed Draft Bill (No. 2414), that it be ordered to
print, that a public hearing thereon be scheduled for October 5, 2011, and that it
thereafter be referred to the Economic Development & Renewable Energy
Strategies Committee was then put, and carried by the following vote:
FOR PASSAGE: Bynum, Chang, Kuah'i, Nakamura,
Yukimura, Furfaro TOTAL — 6,
AGAINST PASSAGE: None TOTAL — 0,
EXCUSED & NOT VOTING: Rapozo TOTAL —1.
Council Chair Furfaro: May I call the county attorney up. We are going to
our Executive Sessions.
There being no objection, the rules were suspended.
ALFRED B. CASTILLO, COUNTY ATTORNEY: Good evening Council
Chair, Councilmembers, Al Castillo, County Attorney. I have, for tonight, only five
Executive Sessions to read off ES -495 until ES -499.
Council Chair Furfaro: Excuse me just for a second. I do want the county
attorney to know that ES -498 although I want it read, it is my intention to defer
this to September 21, 2011 for now.
Mr. Castillo:
Council Chair Furfaro
EXECUTIVE SESSION:
Yes, understood, Chair.
Okay, thank you.
ES -495 Pursuant to Hawaii Revised Statutes Sections 92 -4 and
92- 5(a)(2 & 4), and Kauai County Charter Section 3.07(E), the Office of the County
Attorney requests an executive session with the Council pertaining to the County
Auditor and, if necessary, to consult with the County's legal counsel. This session
pertains to the evaluation of the County Auditor where consideration of matters
affecting privacy will be involved and, if necessary, to consult with legal counsel
regarding the powers, duties, privileges, immunities, and/or liabilities of the Council
and the County as they relate to this agenda item.
ES -496 Pursuant to Hawaii Revised Statutes Sections 92 -4, 92- 5(a)(4),
and Kauai County Charter Section 3.07(E), the Office of the County Attorney
requests an executive session to consult with the Council regarding the Council's
release of the County Attorney's written legal opinion dated May 20, 2008
addressed to the Council, regarding the Request of Legal Advice for Proposed Bill to
Require Installation of Solar Water Heater, and related matters. This briefing and
consultation involves the consideration of the powers, duties, privileges, immunities
and/or liabilities of the Council and the County as they relate to this agenda item.
ES -497 Pursuant to Hawaii Revised Statutes Sections 92 -4, 92- 5(a)(4),
and Kauai County Charter Section 3.07(E), the Office of the County Attorney
requests an executive session to consult with Council regarding the Council's
release of the County Attorney's written legal opinion dated June 24, 2011
addressed to the Council, regarding a Claim filed by L. Steven Niau, and related
COUNCIL MEETING -134- September 7, 2011
matters. This briefing and consultation involves the consideration of the powers,
duties, privileges, immunities and/or liabilities of the Council and the County as
they relate to this agenda item.
ES -498 Pursuant to Hawaii Revised Statutes Sections 92 -4, 92- 5(a)(4)
and (8), and Kauai County Charter Section 3.07(E), the Office of the County
Attorney requests an executive session to provide Council with a briefing regarding
legal issues related to the implementation of Kauai County Charter Section 3.19
and Bill No. 2410. This briefing and consultation involves the consideration of the
powers, duties, privileges, immunities and/or liabilities of the Council and the
County as they relate to this agenda item.
ES -499 Pursuant to Hawaii Revised Statutes Sections 92 -4 and
92- 5(a)(2 & 4), and Kauai County Charter Section 3.07(E), the Office of the County
Attorney requests an executive session with the Council pertaining to the County
Clerk and, if necessary, to consult with the County's legal counsel. This session
pertains to the hire, evaluation, dismissal, or discipline of the County Clerk where
consideration of matters affecting privacy will be involved and, if necessary, to
consult with legal counsel regarding the powers, duties, privileges, immunities,
and/or liabilities of the Council and the County as they relate to this agenda item.
The meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as follows:
Council Chair Furfaro: I'm looking for a motion for us to go into executive
session based on what was presented to us.
Mr. Bynum moved to convene in Executive Session, seconded by
Ms. Yukimura, and unanimously carried.
There being no objection, the meeting was recessed at 8:23 p.m.
The meeting was called back to order at 8:38 p.m., and proceeded as follows:
Council Chair Furfaro: I need to correct some business here. First and
foremost, I had shared with the county attorney the need to defer ES -498 and then
as we went through the whole reading, I didn't ask to actually defer that. So may I
ask for a motion from someone now? And we're deferring it date specific for
September 21, 2011.
Ms. Yukimura moved to defer ES -498 to September 21, 2011, seconded by
Mr. Chang, and unanimously carried.
Council Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much.
There being no objection, the meeting was recessed at 8:38 p.m.
ADJOURNMENT.
The meeting was called back to order, and there being no further business,
the meeting was adjourned at 9:58 p.m.
ih/lc /ds /wa
Respectfully submitted,
Ricky Watanabe
Interim County Clerk
ATTACHMENT N0. 1
(September 7, 2011)
FLOOR AMENDMENT
Bill No. 2149, Draft 4 Relating to Camping at Lydgate Park
INTRODUCED BY: Dickie Chang
Amend Bill No. 2149, Draft 4, by amending Section 19 -4.5 in Section 2 of Bill No.
2149, Draft 4, to read as follows:
"Sec. 19 -4.5 Permit Terms and Conditions.
(a) The Department of Parks and Recreation shall issue a camping permit
on a first come first served basis upon the following terms and conditions:
(1) One permit shall be issued for each of the thirty -one (31)
numbered camping sites which contains a 10'x 10' or 20'x 20' tent area, or the
group -camp site.
(2) Accessible sites are reserved for a qualified person with a
disability.
(A) Identification of a qualifying person with a disability
requires the individual to provide the county employee authorized by
the Director of Parks and Recreation with a current parking permit
placard or evidence of special license plates.
(B) One of the three accessible camping sites shall be
reserved exclusively for a group that includes a person with a
disability.
(C) In the event all non - accessible sites are taken, a camping
permit for an accessible site can be issued to a non - disabled person as
long as one accessible site is left available for a person with a
disability.
(i) In the event one of the accessible sites is issued to a
non - disabled person because all other sites, non - accessible and
accessible sites, have been issued and a person with a disability
requests an accessible site, the person with a disability shall
wait until there is a vacancy.
(ii) Persons with disabilities have first choice of the
accessible sites but are not precluded from camping at a non -
accessible site.
ATTACHMENT NO. 1
(3) There shall be a maximum of five (5) people per 10' x 10'
camping site and ten (10) people per 20' x 20' camping site at any one time.
The names of the campers shall be listed on the permit.
(4) No permit shall be issued to allow camping and no one shall be
allowed to camp for more than five (5) consecutive days at Lydgate Park.
(5) The number of days camped at Lydgate Park shall be included
in the sixty (60) camping days maximum yearly limit set forth in
Section 19- 2.4(4).
(6) The camping site may be closed for maintenance at the
discretion of the Director of Parks and Recreation.
(7) Tents, structures and all other personal items shall be placed
only on the designated tent areas.
(8) A group camping permit includes exclusive use of the group
camp pavilion. For every fifty (50) campers, the permit shall require the
installation, at the permitee's expense, of one (1) portable toilet at a location
designated on a map to be issued with the permit. The permitee shall cause
the removal of the portable toilet when the permit expires.
(9) Each permitted camper shall keep and leave the premises in a
sanitary, clean, and orderly condition.
(10) Each permitted camper shall display the permit on a tent or
structure at all times.
(11) Failure to comply with any of the above conditions shall result
in the permit being revoked."
(New material is underscored.)
(\ \cok- nas -02 \home \wakiona \for review \FA Bill No 2149 Draft 4 (D Chang) 9 -7 -2011 mtg.doc)
ATTACHMENT NO. 2
(September 7, 2011)
FLOOR AMENDMENT
Bill No. 2149, Draft 4, Relating to Camping at Lydgate Park
INTRODUCED BY: Kip U- Kai Kuali'i, Councilmember
Amend Bill No. 2149, Draft 4, by amending Section 19 -4.4 in Section 2 of Bill No.
2149, Draft 4, to read as follows:
"Sec. 19.4 -4 When Permit Required; Time For Issuance.
(a) Any person who camps, erects a tent or constructs any temporary
sleeping quarters [at] in the Lydgate Park Camping Area shall first obtain a
camping permit from the Department of Parks and Recreation or any other
authorized county agency. No permit shall be required for overnight fishing within
the Lydgate Park Camping Area unless the person is using one of the designated
campsites numbered 1 throuLyh 31 on the map attached hereto as Exhibit `B ".
(b) Permits shall be issued from the Department of Parks and Recreation
or other agency that is designated by the Director of the Department of Parks and
Recreation."
(New material is underscored).
LYDGATE CAMPGROUND LAYOUT
ADA SITES: 1 & 3 (RAISED) 2 (FLAT)
10'x10' SITES (UP TO 5 PEOPLE): 10, 11, 129 130 14, 15, 16 & 17
201x20' SITES (UP TO 10 PEOPLE): 49 51 69 71 81 99 18, 19, 209 21, 22, 23, 240 25, 26, 27, 28, 297 30 & 31
GROUP CAMPING AREA (20 OR MORE, MAXIMUM 200 PEOPLE)
EXHIBIT "B"
C�
t�
a
0