HomeMy WebLinkAbout06-10-2009-Doc15905
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MINUTE S
PARKS/TR.ANSPORTATION COMIVIITTEE June 10, 2009
A meeting of the Parks/Transportation Committee of the Council of the
County of Kaua`i, State of Hawai`i, was called to order by Councilmember
Lani T. Kawahara, Chair, at the Historic County Building, Room 201, Lihu`e,
Kaua`i, on Wednesday, June 10, 2009, at 10:20 a.m., after which the following
members answered the call of the roll:
Honorable Tim Bynum
Honorable Dickie Chang
Honorable Daryl W. Kaneshiro
Honorable Lani T. Kawahara
Honorable Derek S. K. Kawakami
Honorable Bill "Kaipo" Asing, Ex-Officio Member
Honorable Jay Furfaro, Ex-Officio Member
Minutes of the May 27, 2009 Parks/Transportation Committee Meeting.
Upon motion duly made by Councilmember Kaneshiro, seconded by
Councilmember Chang, and unanimously carried, the Minutes of the
Parks/Transportation Committee was approved.
The Committee proceeded on its agenda item as follows: Bill No. 2149 A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE AMENDING SECTION 19-2.1
AND ADDING A NEW ARTICLE TO CHAPTER 19 OF THE
KAUA`I COUNTY CODE 1987, RELATING TO CAMPING AT
LYDGATE PARK
[This item was deferred.] .
LANI T. KAWAHARA, Parks/Transportation Committee Chair: Thank you.
With that I'd like to suspend the rules and take any public testimony first. Is there
anyone here that wants to testify on this item? Mr. Mickens, thank you.
There being no objections, the rules were suspended.
GLENN MICKENS: Good morning, members. Thank you, Lani. For
the record my name is Glenn Mickens. I'm here to testify on this Bill 2149. You
have a copy of it. You can read along with me. I want the viewing public to be able '
to see it. It may take longer than three minutes, but if there's more people out
there why I'll come back for my other three...
Ms. Kawahara: Okay.
Mr. Mickens: ...with your permission, Lani. I'd like to...
DICKIE CHANG: Excuse me, Mr. Mickens, can you hold on for one
second?
Mr. Mickens: Yes, sure.
Ms. Kawahara: Do we have...
Mr. Chang: I don't think we have his testimony.
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• i Ms. Kawahara: Which testimony is that, sir?
Mr. Chang: Did you circulate that, I'm sorry.
Mr. Mickens: Yeah, I gave it to...
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, if we can wait one second.
Mr. Chang: One moment, Glenn.
Mr. Mickens: Sure, sure.
JAY FURFAR,O: Did you turn it in at the...front?
Mr. Mickens: Yes, yeah. And you still have the most efficient
clerks on the island, so don't blame them.
Ms. Kawahara: No.
Mr. Furfaro: No, Pua has it right here. She's just passing it out.
Mr. Mickens: Okay.
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you, Wilma. Okay, so everybody has a copy
of the testimony, people? Okay, go ahead.
Mr. Mickens: Thank you, Lani. I would still like any member of
this council to tell me why it is such a necessity to open these campgrounds in
Lydgate Park. As with the bike path, no study was ever done to show how many
people want or will ever use these campsites or if they are being put in the proper
place. It appears that Councilman Bynum is the driving force to get these open and
I and many other members of the public question where his documented evidence is
showing that this is what is needed and the proper place to put them. The facts
that I can back up with evidence showing that putting campgrounds in Lydgate is wrong is simply looking at past history. And I will repeat what I said in my
testimony of 5/27/2009. We had. campgrounds in Lydgate Park 20 years ago and
they were closed, by then I believe Mayor Malapit, due to drugs, alcohol abuse and
there was a murder in the park. Tim keeps saying that all questions and problems
have been addressed: ADA compliance, parking, security, bathroom facilities and
maintenance. But where are these answers and who answered them? Our drug
and alcohol problems are far greater today than they were when the campgrounds
were previously in Lydgate. So why would we even think about repeating a
mistake. Go ask the workers .at Lydgate who are responsible for 7 days-a-week, 365
days-a-year maintenance of this wonderful park and see that they want the failed
campgrounds reopened. See whether they do want them open. For maintenance,
that facility was over used before the three new soccer fields were built and the new
pavilion that burned down was erected. So adding a campground will only
exacerbate the problem and further deteriorate the area. As...ask KPD. They
testified one other time about this issue. But ask them if they want these
campgrounds reopened. See if they want the associated problems that go with them
on top of the high priority crimes they now have. Ask our prosecuting attorney if
her office needs more cases to address. As a member of our council, Shaylene, Mel
and other members did a huge amount of work crafting Bill 2149 on September 22,
2005 and it's obvious that the problems that were outlined then and have come up
on a number of times since then are still with us today. If the public really wants
more campgrounds, then address the following:
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(1) First do a study to find the demand and use for them.
(2) Find open land where they will fit along with security and caretakers to
properly maintain them.
(3) Find out the cost of added labor and equipment, added restrooms and
parking, and added police or security people.
Then decide if, in these hard economic times, we can afford them. Just once,
let's look at the total picture before we, with all due respect Jay, we ready, fire, aim.
I would welcome any questions you might have.
Ms. Kawahara: I see no questions here. May I get the next person
up for testimony. Did anyone have questions for Mr. Mickens. Thank you, Glenn.
Mr. Noyes, Thomas. Oh, oh, hi, sorry, Joe.
JOE ROSA: Good morning members of the Council. For the
record, my name's Joe Rosa. Well, I'm sort of known as the historian (inaudible)
people. Lydgate Park, the opening of the camping grounds it strictly should be a no-
no. I don't know if Mr. Tim Bynum was here in the `70s, '78, '79 and '80. Those
were the hectic years at Lydgate Park where the policemen and the police
department had the hardest time to control violence. I served on a jury panel in
1980 when two people who was brave enough to come all the way from Canada to
testify in this case. They were assaulted by those thugs that used to roam the park.
And even the locals were afraid to go and have parties or camp themselves over
there because of that violence that was going on there. And even those people who
were brave enough to come back to testify under the Kaua`i Act that they had
to...for the witness coming back to testify, it was a sad looking thing where the wife
at the trial claimed she...she was pleading for her husband's life because he was
battered. He had a big swollen eye, all bruises all over his head, and yet, you know,
there was no control. That's when after that the State closed that thing down
themselves when this assault cases was going on. And finally the county took it
over. Now, Mr. Bynum, you know, you do things, but you don't do no surveys. I
don't think that there's enough parking for one and you're going to get campers
staying over the weekends taking up maybe 30 parking stalls, where's the parking?
You should look in where you can get additional parking for all of that. They going
be needing more restrooms, all those kind of things. You know, it's not just saying
it. To say things is easy, but to do it and make it be a reality, it takes time and
planning. A lot of the things you tell us, I've noticed the last time I testified, I went
back and looked into some details, there's no records or plans. The people can't
even answer me. They said we don't have no plans from the...of that so-called bike
path. It was the days of the bike path, the last hearing you had. You said
everything is taken cared. You always say everything is taken cared, but stop lying
to the people of Kaua`i and to the members of the council.
' Ms. Kawahara: Yes, excuse me, if you would...thanks.
DEREK S. K. KAWAKAMI: Now, Ms. Chair, I'm just going to ask that if our
testifiers can just address the whole council and not single anyo anybody out.
Mr. Rosa: Well, I'm sorry, Derek, in this case because it
happens to be that it's a pet project and I've seen things that it hasn't been done.
Mr. Kawakami: Yeah, but this is...
Ms. Kawahara: Mr. Rosa...
Mr. Rosa: Yes.
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• ! Ms. Kawahara: If I could please request that you speak to all the
councilmembers on the...
Mr. Rosa: Oh yeah, sure.
Ms. Kawahara: ...floor. Okay...
Mr. Rosa: It's a...I'm saying something here for everybody
to... Ms. Kawahara: Okay.
Mr. Rosa: ...remember and look into it because that's 30 years
ago. As I said Mr. Bynum wasn't here, Derek was probably a young boy, so were
you a young girl or young lady, Dickie Chang probably just was in and out here. So,
what I'm saying here, it goes for all the members of the council to consider and
think about it. I'm not just wasting my time to come here. I'm trying to do things to
prevent things. I have a foresight that's why I bring something back. Even the
police department today won't be able to enforce all those things that's going to be
happening over there, the violence and it still goes on. It's a high drug...drug area
over there. You ask the police department. That's what I'm trying to say, Derek. I
hope I don't, you know:..I, I'm not here to just address Mr. Bynum because as I said
Mr. Bynum, this is his path.
Ms. Kawahara: Oh, Mr. Rosa, did you have any more testimony
to...to g7ve on this specific bill?
Mr. Rosa: What's that?
Ms. Kawahara: Are you...are you finished with your testimony?
Mr. Rosa: Well, I'm just about...
Ms. Kawahara: Okay.
Mr. Rosa: ...to say what I have to say anyway.
Mr. Furfaro: Point of mo...point of...point of order, Madam. Has
his time expired?
Mr. Rosa: Well, if it has, I...I just about said what I have to
say, Mr. Furfaro.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, Mr. Rosa, there's about 7 more seconds on
your allotted time.
Mr. Rosa: Yes, okay, anyway...
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, thanks.
Mr. Rosa: That's what I have to say. Thank you very much.
Mr. Kawakami: Thank you.
Mr. Rosa: And please consider, make your decisions according
to how you feel.
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Ms. Kawahara: Okay.
Mr. Rosa: Don't be afraid to be a 7-1, I mean 6-1 or 4-2 or 4-3,
5-2, whatever.
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you for...
Mr. Rosa: Let your conscience be your guide.
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you.
Mr. Rosa: Thank you.
Ms. Kawahara: And Thomas Noyes or do we have al...okay. Alice,
if you could...
ALICE PAR,KER: Alice Parker of Lihu`e. I think the concept of
camping at Lydgate is terrific. It's a really special place. But I think Glenn and Joe
have brought up big problems as far as enforcing security there for the campers and
I don't know how KPD has the personnel to help out there or to guard there. Maybe
we could use guard dogs. I'm a dog person, you know. Maybe we need guard dogs
on the island. Anyway, consider it is a gorgeous place and I'd love to camp there
too, but there are issues to address, thank you.
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you. Now, Mr. Noyes.
THOMAS NOYES: Thank you, Councilmember Kawahara. My name
is Thomas Noyes. I serve as the general coordinator for the Friends of Kamalani
and Lydgate Park, and I'd like to offer testimony on Bill No. 2149. Thank you for
your thoughtful deliberations on this matter. It's not a new item before you. It's
been heard before the council before. I'd like to review a little bit of the history.
The Friends of Kamalani and Lydgate Park documented the community's desire for
supervised overnight camping in reserved, specific campsites on a modest per fee,
excuse me, modest per night fee basis as part of the Lydgate Park Master Plan
which was completed in 1999, ten years ago. In 2003 the council accepted the
donation of the construction of the campsites and Kamalani Pavilion based on the
Lydgate Park Master Plan and specific site plans were prepared and reviewed at
that time. Subsequently questions arose about the adequacy of the sanitary
facilities, the ADA compliance and staffing. All of those concerns have been
addressed and the plans to make the camping area ADA compliant have been
approved by the State of Hawai`i Disabilities Communications Advisory Board
(DCAB). The campsites were completed in 2004 with 32 designated campsites, each
equipped with a raised stainless steel barbecue, a recycled plastic picnic bench, and
a reflectorized numeric marker. For five years since the initial work was completed,
the campsites have not been made available to the community for overnight
camping as intended. The overnight camping facilities in the vicinity of the soon to
be opened adj acent Harry and Jeanette Weinberg Sports Park will be welcomed by
sport teams traveling to Kaua`i from the neighbor islands to Kaua`i for tournament
play. Illicit activities are displaced by wholesome family use of an area. So
instituting camping will improve the security of the site. That's what we saw at
that location prior to the construction of the Kamalani Kai Bridge in 2001. When
the matter was before the council previously, Kaua`i Police Department was asked
to give an assessment. My recollection of their assessment was that security in the
area would not present an undue burden on them and that they could handle it as
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part of their regular activities, but of course, you'd want to hear that directly from
the police department at this time. That concludes my testimony. Thank you very
much for your thoughtful consideration.
Ms. Kawahara: Any questions? Yes, Councilmember Kawakami.
Mr. Kawakami: Thank you, Madam Chair. No, I just want to note
as Chair of Public Safety, and the staff can take note, that I'd like to send a
communication over to get the Kaua`i Police Department to come and address some
of these safety concerns at our parks in a future committee meeting agenda. Thank
you.
Ms. Kawahara: Any other questions or discussion? Thank you very
much.
Mr. Noyes: - Thank you.
Ms. Kawahara: Is there anybody else in the audience that would
like to testify on this bill? So I now call this meeting back to order.
There being no further questions, the meeting was called back to order, and
proceeded as follows:
Ms. Kawahara: Now that we're back in order, I'd like a motion to
approve.
Mr. Bynum: Move to approve.
Ms. Kawahara: It's been moved. May I get a second?
Mr. Kawakami: Second.
Councilmember Bynum moved to approve Bill No. 2149, seconded by
Councilmember Kawakami.
Mr. Furfaro: Ex...ex..:excuse me, Madam Chair, this is very
unfortunate, I am not a voting member of your committee, but I was anticipating a
presentation by the Parks Department. Is that not happening?
Ms. Kawahara: Oh...are...he's here. We could...we could do that. I
didn't...I'm...I'm not...
Mr. Furfaro: I'm sorry.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, no.
Mr. Furfaro: This is going to require you to suspend the rules
again.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, I'm going to suspend the rules and I
apologize. We do have Lenny Rapozo from the Parks...and a presentation.
There being no objections, the rules were suspended.
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LEONAR,D A. R,APOZO, JR., Director of Parks and Recreation: For the
record, Director of Parks and Recreation, Lenny Rapozo. For your review, I
presented the council with a brief overview of the campsite, inclusive is the maps,
and the...should this ordinance make it through the process, the possible proposed
rules for it and of course the rules can be amended as the ordinance goes through
' the process of this legislative body. The administration supports the current
ordinance as written in its original form. And in terms of how we would administer
the park is we would look at opening parts of it and not everything at one time to
see if what we envision does in effect overtax what we have going on over there in
issues of parking and the...the people that are using the campgrounds and such.
So, with that being said, we looked at opening part of the park open and I can
identify these sites that we want to look at opening first to get a feel to see how this
project will work out and then we can open the campground further as it...as we
move forward. So, if you look at your map of the campground, we envision, of
course, opening the ADA sites. That'll be sites 1, 2, and 3, and on sites nine...18,
19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25, and sites 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14, and the reason these
sites were chosen is sites 18, 19...18 through 25 are 20 x 20 sites that will
accommodate campers of no more than...I'm sorry, 10, thank you, no more than 10
people. And we looked at, you know, when people want to go camping, they want to
enjoy the beach experience so the locations of these particular camps are along the
coastline. The other 10 x 10 are sites for...8 through 14 are sites of no more than
five campers and those are in a particular area. With the concentration of 10 or
more campers, 5 or more campers and the ADA, we can kind of ineasure and gauge
to see how parking, restroom facilities, and of the likes are taking place. That is the
plan to open up the park. That is the plan.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, any, questions? Councilmember Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Thanks Lenny. The...that's one of the advantages
of having campsites, right? You can regulate, it gives you a level of control that you
maybe don't have in other campgrounds. I just had one question. I was planning...you said you support the bill as written. I was planning only one
amendment, which actually just removes some of the specifs...specisi...
Mr. Rapozo: Specific?
Mr. Bynum: The specifics about opening and closing because I
feel like that is...it doesn't need to be in the law, that that's your kuleana to
administer the campground as you choose and it's designed so you have those tools.
So, you wouldn't object to us removing that language and giving you the latitude?
Mr. Rapozo: No.
Mr. Bynum: Okay, thank you.
Ms. Kawahara: Any other members? I have a question. Could you
repeat which ones on the other site...the sites 10, 11, 12, 13.
Mr. Rapozo: 10 through 14 and 18 through 25.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, thank you. No, no questions? Okay.
Mr. Chang: Hold on.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay...oh, you...you want...a question,
Councilmember Chang.
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Mr. Chang: Mr. Rapozo, good morning.
Mr. Rapozo: Good morning.
Mr. Chang: When...when do you want to plan to open up the
campsite?
Mr. Rapozo: When all the improvements have been completed.
The last that needs to be completed, the ADA, the ADA campsites.
Mr. Chang: You have any plans on when you might want to
open up the group camping area?
Mr. Rapozo: I think...I believe the group camping area was in
conjunction with the pavilion and that pavilion got destroyed. So, you know, I don't
have a problem with...if there's a need for it with the current soccer field, I...you
know, we can...we can...we can have that available. But the concept doesn't have a
paviliori there to help with their group area, but, you know, we...we don't...I don't
want to...I don't...I don't see a problem opening up the group area.
Mr. Chang: We have...we have maps and the audience also has
maps of the group area. But that area that the pavilion burnt down was originally
a pavilion and not a restroom facility.
Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Mr. Chang: Because if you...if you get into the Kamalani
Pavilion and the group camping area, it's at least 100 yards from that camping area
to get to the one restroom facility and, you know, being supportive for good
wholesome family activity and perhaps outer island groups. You know I'm sure
you're going to eventually get lightings and...and rubbish cans out there, but I do
have a concern and that concern is I'm kind of using a little bit of a hotel
background here, if the group or campers check in at 12, then they need to leave by
10, correct?
Mr. Rapozo: As the ordinance is currently written, correct.
Mr. Chang: Because if you have another group following that
other group, I...I...I just wanted to find out how do we police that somebody is going
to check out at 10 and not ask for a late extension, a late check out, if you will, and
you know...you know, just the concerns about the staffing because, you know, I'm
thinking more on the `opala end because, you know, if we're going to be charging the
groups, then I don't know if we need to be doing a dep...an addi...an additional
deposit for...for clean up and I just was wondering about enforcements. I am very
happy to hear that you wanted to break it down in increments as far as where we're
at, but I think if you really look, let's say for example the 10 to 14 that you wanted
to open up, but eventually opening up those picnic tables and the barbecues, I mean
when you put up at 10 x 10, you're basically right next door. I mean your family,
where you sit right now is going to be next to my family, where I sit right now. And
you know, I don't know if that you got a boom box and I got a louder boom box than
yours. I mean, what's going to happen during that particular time. And I...and I do
want to say the reason that I want to thank you for proposing slowly opening up the
campsite, you know, I...I too have concerns about the safety in that area, about the
darkness in that area. To me it looks pretty spooky, if...if you ask me. And I think
the...I think the members that testified, a lot of them talked a little bit about the
parking. Actually outside of the, you know, maybe 6-8 handicap parking stalls,
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there are only about 15 parking stalls for the general public unless, of course, they
park in the grassy, sandy area or along the dirt, you know, the dirt paths leading in
and out. And again, I just want to echo that I...I appreciate you doing things by
increments. But if and when you go full-blown, you have an opportunity to have at
least 500 people on one given day or a holiday weekend and I think that's way, way,
way too many people including the fact that there may be just fishermen or people
touring Kamalani Bridge or people on the bike path. So, I think that there is some,
you know, major concerns and some questions that I'm sure a lot of other
councilmembers would like to mention, but this is just some of the few concerns that
I would have personally, or...or comments.
Mr. Rapozo: That is the reason we only open up a certain
amount to see what the effects will be and you know, Dickie, you go camping, all
your family come over during the day, three-fourths of them go home and the guys
going stay. And that's...that's why we want to see what the effects of. And that's
why the groups...the grouping, you know, instead of opening all the campsites on
the far right, the groupings are such that hopefully we can get a better read as to
the activities that gonna go on during that...during that opening phases. And then,
you know, we may...we may need to adjust. I mean we...that's the reality of it. I...I
don't...I'm not...I cannot...
Mr. Chang: And again, I'm very pleased and...and compli...just
wanted to compliment you because I think that's a very good strategy. But, you
know, I just wanted to point out that there is only at this point one restroom and
comfort station facility in that area. Thank you..
Ms. Kawahara: Any other councilmembers? He's first because he's
on...
Mr. Furfaro: I'm a non, yes, I'm a non-committee member, so
Mr. Bynum.
Ms. Kawahara: Councilmember Bynum, go ahead.
Mr. Bynum: Yeah, I concur that, you know, I have every faith in
the parks department to manage this and you have the latitude to do it as you like
and...but you mentioned that we could open it when we completed ADA
improvements. Is there a plan or a timeline for completing those improvements?
Mr. Rapozo: We are currently on an alternate project list with
receipt of CDBG funds. So with that being said, there is not a definitive timeline for
this project.
Mr. Bynum: Thank you.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, any other members of the committee have a
question?
Mr. Kaneshiro: I have one.
Ms. Kawahara: Councilmember Kaneshiro.
Mr. Kaneshiro: So actually there's no hurry in passing this bill at
this time because obviously if we pass this bill we still can't open until we have the
ADA improvements up. Is that correct? 9
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Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Mr. Kaneshiro: Okay and you won't have a timeline for...you don't
know how long or how long before you have a timeline for us?
Mr. Rapozo: . From the construction phase, once if we do get the
money, 9 months, once the money is given to us.
Mr. Kaneshiro: So this... Mr. Rapozo: But we not...but there's no...there's no funding
source, I guess, available right now.
Mr. Kaneshiro: So even if we pass this bill today, you still won't be
able to open for another year then maybe. Is that correct?
Mr. Rapozo: Correct, yeah, possible.
Mr. Kaneshiro: Then I don't see any reason why we should hurry
up with a bill when we can't even open for another year. Anyway...I got my
questions answered.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay and Councilmember Kawakami.
Mr. Kawakami: No, my main thing is I did have a floor amendment
to introduce, so when we get to that stage, I'll introduce my amendment.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay. So that...no further discussion. We're back
in order.
Mr. Furfaro: Oh.
Ms. Kawahara: Oh, sorry Jay. Go ahead, Councilmember Furfaro.
Mr. Furfaro: Now I have an opportunity...
Ms. Kawahara: -Yes.
Mr. Furfaro: ...to speak since all members have directed their
questions. I...I'm going to repeat something that I referred to at our last meeting,
Lenny. The American Disabilities Act Commission, they put in their letter that the
park appears to be ADA compliant and I was wondering, you know, there could be
two parts to that. Number one, the Commission uses this statement "appears to be"
for the long-term protection of themselves as a commission and I was...if that's the
case, I was just hoping we could get something that says, you know, "you meet the
standard" versus this "appears to be." And...and I can understand, you know,
Boards and Commissions sometimes have a habit of leaving options open to
interpretation because they're volunteers. The second item and I have voiced this
concern in the development of the plan, I would really like us to consider a
departure from the campsite being 2 p.m. because I believe a lot of the associations,
groups and clubs that might use the facility, from Boy Scouts to soccer teams, may
be over from a neighbor island and in fact will be catching a late plane, and you
know, the group may want to feed them before they actually get on the plane, and
the arrival being more like starting at 4 o'clock. That grives us at least two hours to
inspect the site and so forth before. And...and I think it's going to save you a lot of
confusion if we go with a 2 p.m. departure and a 4 p.m. arrival and...and
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giving...give you that time. And just to re-emphasize some of the other items,
Councilwoman and Committee Chair, Mr. Kawakami had led up to this, but I am on
his Public Safety Meeting...Group and we are hoping to meet with Parks and Police
about some clarity on...on the public safety issues which he announced, and we will
also be including Mr. Bynum at the right time as it deals with Public Works. So
that's...that's just general information and Lenny is aware of that and
Mr. Kawakami I want to thank for mentioning it getting closer to Public Safety in
all of our parks.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, thank you for that. Councilmember
Kawakami.
Mr. Rapozo: Do...oh, I'm sorry, do I...do I respond to Council
Furfaro's first question?
Ms. Kawahara: Yes.
Mr. Rapozo: I called DCAB and I got a...a verbal as to the term
"appears." I have the lady's name; I won't say it, but she told me you won't get, yes,
it's perfect/meets, and the reason for being she says, it's viewed as what was
presented to DCAB as having no discrepancies and that's, like you said, the first
part is in case there's something that they didn't see or wasn't presented that comes
up that they need to address later, that's why they use the term "appears" in
their...in their letter to us.
Mr. Furfaro: I...I hope you would just document that somewhere
because I think it also, in fairness to them, deals with the law gets modified
periodically...
Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Mr. Furfaro: ...and they don't have a way to make sure that
everybody is brought up to standards...
Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Mr. Furfaro: ...once they go through an inspection. But I would
log that somewhere.
Mr. Rapozo: It's been.
Mr. Furfaro: Even in an internal memorandum to' the County
Attorney's Office.
Mr. Rapozo: Okay, all right.
Mr. Furfaro: Thank you.
Ms. Kawahara: Did you...were first and then By...Councilmember
Bynum. So, Councilmember Kawakami.
Mr. Kawakami: Thank you, Madam Chair. You know I'm...I'm just
trying to feel it out and it looks like there's a lot of unanswered questions. So the
possibility that a deferral may be asked is very well a possibility, so I want to get
this out. You know, I'm concerned about the fee structure. Currently, for the other
campsites around the island, there is a fee structure that if you go and apply for a
11
• • ' .
permit, if you're a state resident it's for free, out-of-state there's a fee. If you go
down to the campsite and you just set up camp without a permit, a ranger may
come by and assess a$5 per person fee. But I see a fee structure that is
inconsistent with our current fee structure for other campgrounds. So I just would
like to keep it consistent across the board and I think it's pretty self-explanatory.
that that's my basic motive. I don't want us to start getting into the business of
picking and choosing and cherry picking sites and saying, oh well this site deserves
a fee of this much and this site, you know, is free. And that's just my basic
philosophy and way of thinking behind that proposal.
Mr. Kaneshiro: I...I have a question for you.
Ms. Kawahara: Did you... He was next.
Mr. Bynum: Go ahead.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, go ahead.
Mr. Bynum: Is it about fees or?
Mr. Kaneshiro: Yes, so far it is.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, Councilmember Kaneshiro.
Mr. Kaneshiro: So, Lenny, is there a proposal on the floor that
other fees may be changed for different camping areas or...
Mr. Rapozo: No. .
Mr. Kaneshiro: ...specifically you'd use this fee just for this area?
Mr. Rapozo: It's been specific to Lydgate.
Mr. Kaneshiro: Okay.
Ms. Kawahara: Councilmember, did you still have a question,
Councilmember Bynum?
Mr. Bynum: Yeah, regarding DCAB. So the language that they
gave us is pretty much what we get every time they review a permit.
Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Mr. Bynum: It's a standard.
Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Mr. Bynum: And that's the most we can expect from them.
Mr. Rapozo: Correct, other than no, no meet. You will never get
a thing that says, it does meet, it will say it appears.
Mr. Bynum: Right, so...okay, thank you.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, any other questions from the
councilmembers?
12
. . •
Mr. Kaneshiro: One more.
Ms. Kawahara: Oh, Councilmember Chang.
Mr. Chang: Lenny, the proposed fee structure, is that because
- we need moneys perhaps for maintenance further down the line or what was
the...what's the rationale with the...
Mr. Rapozo: My understanding is that when the project was
being done, those that participated in the project came up with the fee structure for
this particular project and I may be wrong, but that's what I...my understanding is.
Mr. Chang: Thank you.
Ms. Kawahara: Same thing? Okay, go ahead.
Mr. Bynum: Well, I think we're going to discuss the fees and I
was just going to wait till we were called back into session because it has a history
and there's a...there's a little more lengthy answer to that question, so, but we can
wait until we call the meeting back to order.
Ms. Kawahara: Councilmember Kaneshiro.
Mr. Kaneshiro: So, Lenny, we defer this, this won't cause any
problems with you where you're looking for funding, right, to...
' Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Mr. Kaneshiro: ...to go ahead and comply with the ADA.
Mr. Rapozo: Correct.
Mr. Kaneshiro: And the only reason why I say that because I may
want to do that just so we can get some response back from the Committee on
Public Safety, you know, and to resolve some of the concerns that were brought up
today during public testimonies.
Mr. Rapozo: Good.
Mr. Kaneshiro: Okay.
Ms. Kawahara: Any other questions? No one, okay. Now I call this
meeting back to order.
There being no further questions, the meeting was called back to order, and
proceeded as follows:
Ms. Kawahara: And we're still on the main motion. So I'd like a
motion to approve.
Mr. Bynum: No.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, okay, so there's several floor amendments,
right, which have been circulated. I would like to take up the floor amendment
which contains the technical amendments to the bill to correct errors first.
Councilmember Bynum. ,
13
. . , .
Mr. Bynum: And so and with mister, if Mr. Kawakami's okay,
we'll do these two first and then move to yours. The...here's two...I have two
amendments. One is prepared by staff because this bill first came to us when there
was an Office of Community Assistance and there's some technical changes that
need to happen in order to bring it in to the state that are current...our county is
currently structured, and so I'd like to move to amend as circulated that amends it
in its entirety and this is from the staff (Floor Amendment No. 1). Move to amend
the staff amendment.
Ms. Kawahara: Can I get a motion to amend as circulated?
Mr. Bynum: That's the motion I just made.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, can I get a second, please?
Mr. Chang: Second it.
Councilmember Bynum moved to amend Bill No. 2149, seconded by
Councilmember Chang.
Ms. Kawahara: Any discussion on this amendment?
Mr. Kaneshiro: So basically it's a technical amendment at this
point.
Ms. Kawahara: Yeah.
Mr. Bynum: This one. Mr. Kaneshiro: Yeah. That you...
Ms. Kawahara: Yes, this first one.
Mr. Kaneshiro: ...proposed and put on the floor correcting when it
was Office of Community Assistance to Parks and Recreation.
Mr. Bynum: Right.
Mr. Kaneshiro: Okay.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, any other...
Mr. Kaneshiro: Just checking.
Mr. Furfaro: Just technical script.
Mr. Bynum: Right. This was prepared by staff, right.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay. '
Mr. Kaneshiro: All right.
Ms. Kawahara: All those in favor say, aye. Any opposed? Hearing
none, motion...motion to amend carries.
The motion to amend Bill No. 2149 was then put, and unanimously carried.
14
. • • •
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, next amendment, please.
Mr. Bynum: I have an amendment (Floor Amendment No. 2)
that basically does what I said. It changes rule 6 to give the discretion to the parks
department to manage the...so the earlier discussion about start time, you know,
because one of the advantages of this campground is it can be run like a hotel with
check-in, check-out that allows them to open what sites they feel are appropriate.
You know, it allows them to close it for maintenance, a lot more flexibility, and so
rather than put that in the...I didn't think it was necessary to put those
amendments in the bill and just leave it to the discretion of the parks department. _
So this amendment says the campsite may be closed for maintenance at the
discretion of the Director of Parks and Recreation and takes away specificity about
start times and days a week and that kind of thing. Okay, so...
Ms. Kawahara: Okay.
Mr. Bynum: I move that...for this amendment.
Ms. Kawahara: Do I have a second to the amendment?
Mr. Kawakami: Second.
Councilmember Bynum moved to further amend Bill No. 2149 as amended
herein, seconded by Councilmember Kawakami.
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you. Any discussion? All those in favor say,
aye. Any opposed? Hearing none, motion carried, amendment motion carried.
The motion to further amend was then put, and unanimously carried.
Ms. Kawahara: "Next amendment, please.
Mr. Kawakami: Okay, I got an amendment (Floor Amendment
No. 3) and it's actually co-introduced by Councilmember Chang and myself and it's
my fault why his name was not included on the paper. I apologize. Basically the
amendment is to just draw back the fee structure into our current camping fee
structure and so it would delete the $5 per day and amend it so it's a no fee; group
camping proposed was $75 per day and I'm amending it to have no fee; camping site
$25 per day, amending it to $3 per person per day; group camping site $150 per day,
amending it to $3 per person per day; and like I said before, the rhyme and reason
behind this amendment is to put it back in line with our current camping fee
structure. And with that, Councilmember Chang...oh, sorry, I'm just taking over
your meeting.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, Councilmember...do we have to...
Mr. Chang: I just wanted to give clarification that we wanted to
do this...
Mr. Bynum: You need a motion and a second.
Ms. Kawahara: I need a motion and a second.
Mr. Kawakami: So moved.
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you.
15
s •
Mr. Chang: Second.
Councilmember Kawakami moved to further amend Bill No. 2149 as
amended herein, seconded by Councilmember Chang.
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you. Now discussion.
Mr. Chang: Yeah, Councilmember Kawakami, just to...just for
the record, we wanted to do this proposal for a year to see how the...the structure
flows. Is that correct? The rate structure?
Mr. Kawakami: Yeah. _
Ms. Kawahara: Okay. So you're...so this is just a...it's sun...sun
goes down, right? After...after a year we re-evaluate it, is that it? Okay, any other
discussion by committee members? Non-committee members, ,Mr. Furfaro.
Mr. Furfaro: Non-committee members, yes. Do we know the
. administration's position on this proposal? Did we get a comment from the Director
of Parks?
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, I suspend the rules and ask for Mr. Rapozo
to come back up.
There being no objections, the rules were suspended.
Mr. Rapozo: For the record, Director of Parks and Recreation,
Lenny Rapozo. As far as the amendment is concerned, I...we will stand by the
testimony that I" had before that we support the ordinance in its original form.
Mr. Furfaro: Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you. Any other questions for Mr. Rapozo?
No...you...okay, thank you. Councilmember Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Thank you.
Ms. Kawahara: And I'm calling the meeting back to order, thank
you.
There being no further questions, the meeting was called back to order, and
proceeded as follows: • .
Mr. Bynum: As I...as I, a lot of people here know this...this
campground has a long history. It comes from a master plan initially that the
community worked on in 1999. There were dozens of ineetings and hundreds of pieces of testimony. There was a brainstorming about Lydgate Park because we
were looking to expand it and make it a better park. And the i...the proposal for
camping was one of the major requests that came from the camp...from the
community. They basically wanted to have more picnicking space. Part of the
multi-use path was part of the community's desire, as well as camping, and other
expansions of the park. During that brainstorming section, the community said,
we'd like to see a campground on Kaua`i that's different than the ones we have now,
that have sites because that we know we have a picnic table, we know we have
a...a...a barbecue, we know that there's a place for us. We don't have to run down
and try to reserve our site hours in advance; we can get it. We'd like to have
16
. ~ ~
restrooms that have showers, and doors was a request from many women, in
particular, who are uncomfortable showering at the camping facilities now we have
. with...some of the...it was part of the sentiment was we'd like to have a
campground with a little bit better amenities and managed in a different way that
they had seen in other parts of the state and in the country, and after many
meetings came up with this plan. We hired a consultant that designed the
campground, who is a professional in park design, and they set out the campsites
and the, you know, and suggested the rules. The community also said that they
would ask for fees because they realized that a better campground with more
amenities may have more cost, but the consultant told us that the fees were a
management tool, that when you have a campsite that and is...as the...the Parks
Director has pointed out, some sites are more desirable than others. Go down there,
it's like, eh, I like that site, and so people are going to be requesting specific sites. I
would like site No. 18, for instance, I think it's one of the premiere sites. And so if I
get a perxnit for that, we want to have some level of commitment that you'll actually
use the permit. What people do now, say at "Anini, is go get permits for the whole
summer or for six or eight, and then they say, oh, wow, we're going to go camping or
what. Because the permit didn't cost anything, they can go. And so without a
nominal fee that elicits some level of commitment to the site, there...I believe there
will be management problems because that's what the professional consultants told
us. That for instance, I have a permit for site 18, I decide not to go, I didn't pay
anything for it after all, something else comes up, and...you know somebody has a
less desirable site wants to move into the empty site, but that's not what their
permit is for. And so I don't think and the...and this was discussed at length in
previous council meetings, both in 2000, two years ago and three years ago. And
the discussion at the time was really about what the fees would be, not whether
there would be fees at all. They started at $15 per day and there was a sentiment
that I agreed with that we should keep them as nominal as possible to fulfill that
management need. And I think the community, we've received lots of testimony
that $5 a night is not an obstacle to people camping. A family of up to 10 people can
camp for two days for 10 bucks. The fee for...there was also lots of testimony that
the fee for people from outside of the State of Hawai`i should be higher and that's
why the proposal is $25. The current bill says $5 for state residents, $25 for out-of-
state residents. And that was really to do what we already do and acknowledge
that the primary users we hope are residents of Kaua`i and of the State. So, I feel
very strongly that fees, nominal fees are an important management tool that was
discussed at length, that was the testimony from the community, and this plan was
worked up by professionals and along with lots of community input and I think we
should honor that work that came before and continue to have these nominal fees.
Ms. Kawahara: Anything further? Any other councilmembers?
Councilmember Chang?
Mr. Chang: Yes, thank you. Councilmember Bynum, thank you
for, you know, enlightening myself with the history. Obviously I didn't really know
the history and I can definitely see the rationale. I think one of the reasons we were
thinking on line of trying to keep the structure free was again to be consistent with
the rest of the island, and I can see the value here of Lydgate, but you know we
recently...you know we raised the rates for the golf course; we raised the rates for
the bus; and when I was trying to figure out the rationale here, you know, if...if
you're golfing with your regular golf buddies or your golf club, you...you're talking
about an individual playing the game of golf. When you're talking about riding the
bus, I believe you're talking about somebody with their livelihood or just a need of
transportation or a way to get to and from school or work and that's an individual.
But, I...I...I think for myself personally, I was more on the line that, you know, it's
difficult times right now for a lot of people and many of us or many people don't
17
have an opportunity to go to Disneyland or go to Honolulu to the water park and,
you know, now more than ever I think people are looking for release and looking for
recreation and...and it's tight on everybody's budget. But to be able to go
somewhere for free, you know, in this day and age was really the way that myself
was personally thinking. You know, sincerely thank you for educating me because
I...I didn't know the history and I didn't know professional consultants and I can
see the reason to charge some sort of a nominal fee, but even for people this day and
age, you know, if we can at least save some money for them, you know, again, we
might not even open the campgrounds for another year, the proposal that
Councilmember Kawakami and I put on the floor was really to see what happens
there after a year. But, you know, again thank you. I don't disagree with anything
that you're saying. I appreciate that history, but my rationale is that at this day
and time if we can do anything for families to recreate and to get a little bit of a
release as far as stress in their everyday life, then I wanted to see this basically free
for our residents on Kaua`i, thank you.
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you, Councilmember Chang.
Councilmember Kawakami.
Mr. Kawakami: No and I respect the history too. It's just
philosophical difference. You know, I feel that we have a management tool in place;
it's the permitting process and if this is...if the rhyme and reason is to ensure that
people go camping, then it should be reimbursable, you know. And then the
question arises is if it's reimbursable, how do you even contend to the fact that they
actually went camping. So it raises a lot of issues. If the rhyme and reason is to
ensure that people go camping, you know, and we put a management process where
okay, you put a deposit down, you know, then I can see that, but this is a fee and,
you know, there's some people that are going to be deterred by the fee and I don't
think that's what we want to do. I don't think that's what the intention is. But I
see it happening if we go forward with this fee structure. And...and that's where
I'm coming from, to keep it uniform and you know, we asked...do you know that
people said they wanted a different campsite. Well, it is different. For one thing,
yeah, there are what, raised pads to go camping on. There's Kamalani Playground
right next by and it's in a different area. So you don't need a fee structure to have a
different and unique campsite, and thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay. Councilmember Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: I respect that there's a difference of opinion. I just
would say that I think we will have significant problems if we don't have this
management tool. I don't believe that $5 per family of 10 is...will be an obstacle to
the enjoyment of that area and I trust the consultants who told us about the
problems other communities have had without this kind of management tool, and so
we'll just see how the vote goes and...and I'll be concerned. But I do believe
that...you know, in my memory I heard little or no opposition to fees and heard
many community members say they...they wanted to pay a fee because they wanted
to have the level of service that, you know, the amenities that we have there and
recognize that...the county have the...so the community's support was we want to
support this campground, keep it nice, keep it maintained, keep the amenities good.
You know, the consultant's thing was saying your parks department, it's a
management tool that they use and I think when we finish that discussion and we
change the fees from $15 to $5 a day, so we'll just see how it goes.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay.
18
i •
Mr. Kawakami: And I'd...I'd like to make a point on that note. You
know, if that's the case then I just don't believe that the $5 per day fee is going to
' work. I don't think it's going to deter some family from saying, hey, you know what,
we gotta go camping because we put 15 bucks down for a weekend, you know. I
don't think that the fee structure that's proposed is going to serve its purpose.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, Councilmember Kaneshiro.
Mr. Kaneshiro: Thank you, Chair. I...I have some reservations on
when we look at reducing the fare or the fee for...for outside. What I'm saying is
that because the proposal calls from $25 going down to $3 and we could have a run
of outside people or mainlanders that book all the reservations because it seems
rather cheap at $3, you know, per person per day to camp in a nice campground like
this. So, you know, I do have some reservations about that. Maybe we can have a
little bit more discussion on that.
Mr. Kawakami: Sure, I'd like to discuss that.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, Councilmember Kawakami.
Mr. Kawakami: Well, you know, like I said the rhyme and reason is
just to keep it uniform with the current free structure. Right now it's $3 per person
per day for outsiders for the other campsites. So, the reduction from this proposal is
just to fall in line with what we're currently doing and you know, maybe what we
should do is at the end of the day is maybe ask for a deferral because I'm not sure if
we keep a record of how many out-of-state guys pull camping permits, if we even
have a tracking system of that sort, but you know, maybe that'll answer some
questions. And like we said, this is a trial period. The whole intent is to see how it
works and so we're going to see how it works and at the end of the day we can
always come back and change the law.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, but he still has...you have a question still,
Councilmember?
Mr. Kaneshiro: So the proposal would be to defer this amendment
also rather than move on it at this point.
Mr. Kawakami: Na
Mr. Kaneshiro: So or you prefer us moving this amendment ahead
with the proposed rate changes.
Mr. Kawakami: We should approve the amendment.
Mr. Kaneshiro: All right, I...I just wanted to be clear.
Mr. Kawakami: For me to say not to approve the amendment would
be (inaudible).
Mr. Kaneshiro: May I continue, Madam Chair, if I could.
Ms. Kawahara: Oh yes, go ahead.
19
• i Mr. Kaneshiro: I...I have no problem for the resident side, but I
think it's important for us to bring a little higher level of fees for outsiders. As I say
that I think this is a good opportunity for our residents here or residents of the
State of Hawai`i to take this opportunity to be able to enjoy camping at Lydgate.
But at the same time, you know, I'm afraid that because...because that this area
has so much attention with our bike path and so much of the amenities that goes
with this camping grounds that we might be bombarded by outsiders reserving or
taking ma...majority of the reservations and giving less opportunities for our island
residents to camp. So that's just my concern that I have.
Ms. Kawahara: Council...Chair Asing.
BILL "KAIPO" ASING: Yeah, I...you know, councilmembers, you need to
look at the amendment a little closer. The numbers that you get and the dollars are
a little confusing. Confusing in the sense that, you know, when you have, as an
example, $150 per day and then you have a...the amendment which is $3 per person
per day, that may sound like, ho, $3, getting away with murder. They're not. If you
get a hundred people, that's $300, three hundred versus one hundred and fifty, '
double the price. So, you know, you...you...you need to understand what's
happening, look at the amendment, and understand the amendment. So, in Derek's
amendment, for the non-resident, you know, it's...it's high and if your justification
of the non-resident should be higher, then Derek's amendment does that. It is lower
for the resident but higher for the non-resident. So, look at the amendments, make
sure you understand the amendment.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay.
Mr. Kaneshiro: But how many...how many can go with a group
camping site? .
Mr. Chang: Two hundred maximum.
Mr. Kaneshiro: Two hundred max. How many can go on each
camping site, like the one...
Ms. Kawahara: The pad?
Mr. Kaneshiro: 10 x 10?
Mr. Chang: 10 x10 five and 20 x 20 ten.
Mr. Kaneshiro: Oh, okay. Oh, we don't need a calculator to figure
that out.
Mr. Asing: So, you know, the...
Mr. Kaneshiro: I got it.
Mr. Asing: The numbers are high in Derek's proposal for the
non-resident.
Mr. Chang: Lani.
Ms. Kawahara: Yeah, oh, Councilmember Chang.
20
. . • •
Mr. Chang: Yes and...and thank you for bringing up that point,
Chair and Councilmember Kaneshiro. I think when we, when Councilmember
Kawakami and I was chatting about this I...I think everybody knows how I feel
about the visitor industry. I mean, wholeheartedly I...I'd like to see them get a
great deal, but one of the things that we also had brought up was we really wanted
to find out and I'm sorry I didn't have the chance to find out actually how many
visitors actually do take permits out because we're looking at a value-oriented deal
that you could go to a hotel and pay $100 plus the amenities. So what we were
trying to do was I feel be consistent and value oriented because we also looked upon
the fact that they're going to have to go to a Big Save or Star or Costco to get you
know lighting fluid, charcoal, you know, fruits, vegetables, ice, hopefully like a back-
up tent or a fishing pole or what have you, so we were looking at that point that
there...there is moneys generated throughout the community of the...the necessities
that they'll need for their camping experience. So that...I just wanted to explain a
little bit about that as far as some of the rationale with additional spending, if you
will, which is a much more value-oriented drive than basically staying at a hotel
with room service and restaurants, etc. So that was a little bit behind the rationale,
thank you.
Ms. Kawahara: Did you have your hand up first? Councilmember
Kawakami.
Mr. Kawakami: You know and I just want to throw out you know I
understand the...the concern that we may have the possibility of out-of-state
residents kind of overrunning and leaving very oppor...little opportunity for our
local residents, but if that's the concern, I think a more viable solution that we may
consider in the future because I'm not ready with an amendment right now, is that
require that out-of-state residents, well out-of-state can obtain permits two days in
advance of the camping date. And that way you would eliminate, you know, people
kind of just stacking it up and you know, I...I think that's a...a solution.
Ms. Kawahara: Councilmember Bynum or who was first?
Mr. Bynum: Yeah, like I said this...this has been before
coun...we spent hours and hours and hours on the council, outside of the council, so
I'm at a little deja vu and I respect that you guys weren't here and we should have
these conversations again. But so for instance what the Chair points out, you know,
that...it also is a management issue. You know, if it...if it's per person with a group
campsite, how do you know how many people were in that group?. They have to,
you know, in practice, they're going to estimate, oh well I think the group is 25, so
they pay $25, but the group ends up being 100. You...you know, how do you
monitor that? We had all that discussion before so that's why we came to the flat .
fee proposal in terms of the group campsite. Same thing with the other sites, we
don't have site camping at other places, so because we had it we said we'll have a
flat fee for the site that can be up to 10 people, right. And so that was part of the
discussion. And then the other point and that we discussed about, Councilmember
Kaneshiro's concern, and came up along the lines of yours in terms of legalities and
stuff that if the permits are available too more easily to local residents and so we,
. you know, my kuleana, or my...not kuleana, my sense of that was make the permits
available as they are at the neighborhood centers for local people and just continue
to make these permits available at the neighborhood centers. And then that would
require an out-of-state visitor to be on-island and if they're here and they go and
_ there's room at the campground, they get a permit. But I think this is...will be a
very popular campground because of the amenities, because of the location, because
it will be part of the connection of the multi-use bike path. It'll be very desirable.
And I would like the local residents to have the first crack at those and I think that
21
• • . ,
the parks department can manage that in.terms of the way they make permits
available. And then we don't get into the legalities of, you know, is it legal to
discriminate against this person because of where they live. We just do it in terms
of the management. But I continue to feel like it's important to have a fee structure
to...to do the management of the site and it's consistent with what...the feedback
we got from the community, so.
Ms. Kawahara: Councilmember Kaneshiro and then Kawakami.
Mr. Kaneshiro: Thank you, Madam Chair. The proposal that
Mr. Kawakami threw on the floor makes some sense to me because somehow, you
know, even with this $3 fee, all you need is two people, right, to take up a campsite
and that's only $6 for an out...outside people to come from wherever they are to stay
at the campsite and they can also take up to 10 or 15 campsites or whatever
campsites are available. That doesn't mean that necessarily they're going to have
all 10 people staying in one tent. I believe that won't happen very often. Most
times you will have a couple staying at the tent, so for them, you know, a$6 place is
rather cheap. So I think that if we can come up with some ways of being able to
control this where we can...the majority of the reservations first can go out and
have the island residents and out-of-island from Kaua`i residents, Hawai`i residents
have an opportunity to first make some reservations, then, you know, the remaining
balance at $3 per person is not a problem. But I think if we...if we just leave it at
$3 per person, we can get 10 couples and they can take 10 different tents and that's
my concern I have at only $6 per campsite and the...pretty much leave the
opportunity out for the residents, so. You know, but we're open for discussion.
Ms. Kawahara: Would you like to respond, Councilniember
Kawakami? Do you still want to...you had your hand up after his. Yes.
Mr. Kawakami: Yup. No and I think you know Councilmember
Bynum brings up a...a good point. You know, say for example with my proposal he
raises the question, you know, per person, you know, how do you determine how
many people are actually there, but on the flip side, it leaves a lot of open ends on
the current proposal now because the max...there's a max amount that's set. So
how do we even know if they're not exceeding the max in this case and violating,
you know, the policy. So there's...there's a lot of unanswered questions and, you
know, I just wanted to throw that back out that there is also a flip side to the
current proposal and some of the concerns that are being tagged onto my proposal
are also tagged onto the current proposal as it stands.
Ms. Kawahara: Councilmember Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: I totally agree with your last statement.
There...there is no perfect management tool. There's no perfect management tool.
But, you know, it triggered something else that we talked about in the past was if
there's no fee, then you know, two...you could get two or three sites for five or six
people and keep it all locked up. So, it's like, you know, George gets a site and Sam
gets a site and Sue gets a site. They have the three of the best campsites and it's
only 5 or 6 people. The sites accommodate up to 10 and so, you know, I'm just
having memories of the, kind of concerns we had and again, going back to the pros,
the professional consultant said, this is...now and I agree with what you said also,
Derek, that $5 may not be sufficient to do that. I had actually prepared an
amendment that I didn't want to introduce that would raise it to $8, you know, and
at one point it was $15, right. I think it was a unanimous concern that well you
know three nights...long weekend, three nights of camping would be...at $15 would
be $45 and that would be an impediment to families to be able to use it and so that's
22
, . • •
why the fee came down to $5 and we (inaudible). But the whole debate prior was
what level do we set these fees where it's as maximum available to the local
residents but yet there's a commitment to the site to help us to deal with the
management. So, enough said for...for me now.
Ms. Kawahara: Yes, Council Chair Asing.
Mr. Asing: May I make a short presentation?
Ms. Kawahara: Yes.
Mr. Asing: Okay.
Ms. Kawahara: Wait, wait one second. Is it on the..the
amendment, the motion on the floor... ,
Mr. Asing: Yes.
Ms. Kawahara: ...the fees.
Mr. Asing: Yes, yes, it'll...it'll tie into that.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, thank you. Go ahead.
Mr. Asing: With that, maybe we should take the caption break
now because we need a caption break anyway.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, let's take a caption break and come back for
a short presentation on this amendment.
There being no objections, the meeting was recessed at 11:29 a.m.
The meeting was called back to order at 11:49 a.m., and proceeded as follows:
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, I call the meeting...the Parks and
Transportation meeting back to order. I am going to suspend the rules for the
presentation of Council Chair Asing.
There being no objections, the rules were suspended. '
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Thank you. With that, can I have a...I
wonder if I can see? Maybe I can stay here. Okay. Let me start off by saying this
and this is in reference to the...the rate structure and...wow, I think I need a
portable mike, please. Okay, what I wanted to do was point out that currently in
our current Section 19 is the section that deals with parks and there is a fee
structure and the present fee structure for all the parks as far as camping is
concerned, Ha'ena Beach Park, Hanalei Black Pot Beach Park, 'Anini Beach Park,
Anahola Beach Park, Hanama'ulu Beach Park, Salt Pond, Lucy Wright Park, all of
these parks have a fee structure currently. So, I believe what Derek was trying to
do which I can support is say, hey, we got all of these beach parks and here is the
fee. As pointed out in Section 19-2.4, Terms and Conditions, you will notice that
pay the sum of $3 per person camping per night. So there is a fee structure now
and my concern is that we should do all of the parks and handle them the same
way. Why should we be different? Shouldn't we be the same the way we handle
beach parks and camping? Why would we say, oh, this beach park you need to pay,
this one here you don't have to pay? Now, in the $3 per person per night, there is
23
• • ' .
one more thing that is in the ordinance that is not being addressed here and can
you do the next one? And this is the section under Permit Fee Exemptions. Now
there is a fee, the fee is $3, but there are exemptions. What are those exemptions?
And here it is. Any person who provides a statement under oath of his
conti...continued and present residency in the State of Hawai`i for a period of one
year or who is a resident as defined in Section two point...two...235-1, Hawai`i
Revised Statutes. I looked at that and that was...that is about income, so we don't
need to handle that. And all members of eleemosynary groups. Now I looked at the
definition for this also and it makes reference to churches, that's what this group
here. Organizations, associations or clubs duly organized and registered under the
laws of the State of Hawai`i including all public and private school clubs,
associations, organizations and groups which are recognized by the Department of
Education, State of Hawai`i, and...and now children below eighteen years of age are
exempted from payment of the fees. So, the $3 fees that you're making reference to
is really not there as far as Hawai`i residents. So you could say that if you used this
that who are you really exempting, you're exempting anyone in the State of Hawai`i
almost, anyone because even in the group area, yeah, you have school baseball
teams, football teams, soccer teams, whatever you have, those all going to fall in
this category. So they not going pay and don't we want to do that? So there is one
more thing that I wanted to bring out. I think the important issue that needs to be
looked at is why, why, why do we want to say this park is different, we charge for
using this park? I have some difficulty with that. The other parks camping free.
This park you pay. And I have great difficulty with that. Now, there is another
thing that I...I think we need to consider too. What we're doing in...in this area
here is we're taking the park ordinance and we're com...we're com...completely
taking Lydgate and Lydgate now is a special ordinance. Why, why, why are we
doing that? Don't they fall in the Ha'ena, "Anini? By the way Ha'ena, the numbers
that you can go there is 85, Black Pot 50, 'Anini Beach 220, Anahola Beach 50,
Hanama'ulu Beach 45, Salt Pond 75, and Lucy Wright Park 100. So, you know,
very similar in nature, they're not that far off. So, why do we need a new ordinance
for this park? It should fall under the current ordinance, which covers all of our
parks, our Hanalei and Ha'ena and Lucy Wright. We have an ordinance already.
It's structured, it's there. What are we doing messing around and saying, oh, this
park is different and charging people now. So, I...I think that those are things to
consider and that's the reason I...I understand where Derek is coming from. We
have an ordinance. It has a fee and it has exemptions. And the part that I like
about the exemptions is for me I was more interested in the local Kaua`i resident,
but in the exemptions here, it is covered, so all of the local residents are exempt.
There is no fee for them if we use this and stay with the same ordinance and don't
put another ordinance. Why do we need another ordinance is my concern. We're
writing something up, a new ordinance, for what? We have an ordinance already
under Parks covering every park on what you can do, what you cannot do, the times
and the other thing that needs to be considered is we shouldn't get too involved in
the times it opens, the time it closes. You know, the parks division has problems
enough trying to address that. I did talk to the parks division and found out that
scheduling maintenance is a major problem and they have, in fact, worked it out.
As an example, in Ha'ena, they...they close for maintenance on a Monday, 'Anini
Park Tuesday, Anahola Park Tuesday, Lucy Wright Park Monday, Salt Pond
Tuesday and they figured out the times on when people are going to leave the park
and enter the park and when they can come in and do the maintenance work. So,
they've worked all of this out. They've talked to the maintenance division and have
set times. So, I don't think we should get into the nitty-gritty of, you know, trying
to manage their...their concerns. We should leave that to the people that are
responsible for maintaining the parks or anyway, those are some of the kinds of
concerns that...that I have and I understand where...where Derek is coming from
and I can support that and the reasoning behind that and also the other thing that I
24
• •
wanted to point out, which I just did, was why in the world are we making another
amendment to the ordinance and putting a special ordinance for Lydgate Park
when we already have an ordinance covering all parks anyway? With that, thank
you very much.
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you, Council Chair Asing. I'd like to call
the meeting back to order.
The presentation having concluded, the meeting was called back to order, and
proceeded as follows:
Ms. Kawahara: And...I do have a discussion that I'd like to talk
about in response to while we were discussing about fees on this amendment.
I...I...I find myself agreeing with Councilmember Kaneshiro about being sure that
our out-of-state residents pay...pay more. The...do I have...and...I...I like the way
that it's set up right now and I like that it's set up by per day instead of per person.
It seems to me to be more manageable. What I hear we're struggling with or some
people are struggling with is why is Lydgate different. I'd like to say that Lydgate
is different because there are about five different types of classifications of parks by
use and visibility that we have here. Most of the parks that are camping parks,
Ha'ena, Hanalei, Anahola, Hanama'ulu and Lucy Wright are...they are designated
as category...or classified as 3 or a type 3, which is a medium use and visibility.
Lucy, what was the other one? The only other one that is different is a 3 is
Hanama'ulu Beach, which is further down on that classification. Lydgate is
different because it is the only park that we have that is a classification park as l.
' It is a type 1, extremely high use and visibility. For these reasons, I think it is
different. I also believe for these reasons there...there is a basis for doing a fee that
is...that is not like the other...other campsites because they do have the amenities,
it does have the location obviously by the classification that's already been given as
a one. It's extremely high use, very popular, high visibility and it's...and the
amenities close to it, the bike path and the ocean and the views and...and the new
bathrooms and the park...parking area. So, I...I would like to submit that the...it is
different and that's why it does require rethink...a thinking of fees for this
particular site because it's the only park...I mean the only camping site that is
classified in our park system as a one. And I...and I'm hoping that we'll be able to
address that. We're still in discussion and...
Mr. Asing: Can I... Ms. Kawahara: ...and we're still on the amendment.
Mr. Asing: Can...can I respond to that?
Ms. Kawahara: Yes.
Mr. Asing: Okay, so you're saying that we should charge our
local residents. Am I correct? Rather than, presently our local residents don't pay
for camping, but in your scenario you are saying that we are going to be charging
local residents. Am I correct?
Ms. Kawahara: I. ..I was 'more general...yes and more generally,
though, I was talking about why it's different and why there should be fees.
Mr. Asing: No, I...I'm just asking the question, are you saying
that you want to charge local residents rather than free as in the present ordinance
today?
25 -
• . ' ,
Ms. Kawahara: Which is the $5 or the $3, the one you were
discussing.
Mr. Asing: Then the answer is yes.
Ms. Kawahara: Yes, yes.
Mr. Asing: You want to charge.
Ms. Kawahara: I do believe that there's a value in charging for this
park.
Mr. Asing: Okay.
Ms. Kawahara: And I believe that it's a value...
Mr. Asing: Then I don't...then that's where you and I...
Ms. Kawahara: That was your question.
Mr. Asing: ...disagree.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay.
Mr. Asing: I just don't feel that local residents should be
charged anything.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Ms. Kawahara: Councilmember Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: I just want to answer that question also why...why
we have an ordinance. I don't know what's wrong with my mike today. We have an
ordinance for Lydgate and why do we have it? Because it is different. It's different
because the community asked for it to be different and also the point that
Councilmember Kawahara just brought up. Also we created ADA campsites which
we have never done before. We didn't have to do that. There is no requirement for
that. It was an attempt to be proactive to meet the needs of people with disabilities.
At least one of the sites is going to...is intended to have a raised platform because
that's the transfer height. There are campsites like that all over the country.
Bernard came here and gave...when...excuse me, Mayor Carvalho, when he was the
parks director, came here and gave presentations about, you know, why we did that
and then, you know, our...our ADA Coordinator worked with us to create the
language and the ordinance about managing for per...persons with disabilities. We
ran into problems in terms of getting the right documents in place and once we
agreed we still have to fix those things, but Lydgate Park is different and I also would answer the question, yes, I want to charge local residents for camping at the
rate of $5 because of its being a management issue. But, you know, we need an
ordinance at Lydgate because it's different and because it's high use. And this
ordinance is the...from the parks department. You know, the parks department
worked with consultants and community over a long period of time to come up with
this ordinance. They are supporting it. I think we should and, you know, the only
amendment I made today was to defer...to take away some of the...the control's that
we don't need because they can manage it. They are the ones that should.
26
. • • •
Councilmember...I mean Council Chair read the limits that are set at each park for
the issuance of permits. Those limits are set by the parks department based on
their experience and they can set similar limits for Lydgate Park, you know. So
when you look at numbers, it's up to the parks department to determine the
maximum numbers. The ordinance says because there's sites, there's 10 here or 5
here, but if those numbers reach to a...a threshold that the parks department
chooses, then they cannot issue any further permits. So, again, I think we should
support the parks department and their proposal that they worked on diligently
and...
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you. I would like to request that we stop
discussion on this amendment because the introducers...
Mr. Kawakami: I think I would like to say something, if you would,
Madam Chair...
Ms. Kawahara: Oh, okay.
Mr. Kawakami: ...being that I'm a co-introducer. And I...I disagree
that that's where it stands today. There's a difference in opinion. You feel that we
should charge locals. I feel that we should not charge locals, and furthermore, I
wanted to keep it uniform, okay, and I think the reason why is just it's the way I
was raised. You know what I mean? When we wanted to go camping, we didn't get
charged. I think it's a god-given right if you're a resident of Hawai`i, yeah, and
you're dealing with...with the...the high cost of living and everything, to be able to
go out there and enjoy the outdoors. We talk about maintaining public access to our
beaches and this campground does exactly that, it does. So I appreciate that. And I
want to further that by allowing every local resident to get there for free. And so
there's the difference, okay? But I'm a business man. I'm willing to negotiate. I
don't think I would have gotten the support the way I had currently constructed my
first amendment with Councilmember Chang, so what I did is we redid the floor
amendment. So at this time, if I may, I would like to withdraw my motion.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay.
Mr. Kawakami: Yeah, and re-introduce another amendment. So, I
move to withdraw my motion.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay and...
Mr. Bynum: Withdraw the second.
Ms. Kawahara: I need to have it withdrawn...
Mr. Chang: Second.
Ms. Kawahara: ...by this person. Okay. Second. So, amendment...
Mr. Chang: I withdraw the second.
Ms. Kawahara: Amendment is withdrawn and the new
amendment?
Mr. Kawakami: There is a new amendment...
Ms. Kawahara: It's being...
27
• • ' .
. Mr. Kawakami: ...and the...the original intent was to keep it
uniform but like I said, my main purpose, yeah, is to keep it free for locals. That's
my main purpose. And that being said, there is a new amendment (Floor
Amendment No. 4). What it does is it currently keeps the gist of my former
amendment, no fee for local, group camping no fee. But we'll go back to the
proposed amendment from the administration with the camping site for $25 per day
out-of-state and group camping site $150 per day out-of-state. And so I make a
motion to approve this floor amendment (Floor Amendment No. 4) as circulated.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, so, we need a second.
Mr. Chang: Second it.
Councilmember Kawakami moved to further amend Bill No. 2149 as
amended herein, seconded by Councilmember Chang.
Ms. Kawahara: And then dis...discussion on this amendment.
Mr. Kawakami: No, I discussed already. If you guys want to talk
about it, you can talk about it.
Ms. Kawahara: Anybody else, please. Okay. You know what, I
think Mr. Kaneshiro was first.
Mr. Kaneshiro: Thank you, Madam Chair. And I appreciate the
committee's into...being able to look and negotiate and again, you know, my feeling
has been that the state residents should be able to enjoy what we have out there for
free in camping and so forth. And the biggest concern, as I said or I mentioned
before, was the part that the non-residents paying a very minimum amount and I
was afraid that if we do that, they may take up most of the camping grounds and therefore, you know, have some limited camping grounds for our residents. So, it
may not be true. It may be opposite, but I think at this point, you know, with the
committee's making the recommendation, I will support that and we can see how it
works. And I guess, you know, later on again, we're sure permit structures and fees
are going to come back up for more discussions and debate. So, thank you with
that.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, thank you. Councilmember Bynum, you're
next.
Mr. Bynum: I appreciate Councilmember Kawakami listening to
the discussion and making changes and I think the amendment that he's proposing
is better than the first one and I think this is great. You know we're having an open
dialogue about the issues and we may disagree and it looks like the vote might not
go my way, I'm totally accepting of that and...because I know we all want the same
thing in our diversity and our different opinions is what makes this whole process
healthy and I...you know, I still feel like and I think I have the same sentiment that
I want local people to have the preference, I want this as a really great opportunity.
You know we...all of...none of us can afford. You go to a movie with the family and
it's 70 bucks these days and so our parks are just a wonderful opportunity to have
the best recreation for our whole community. I don't believe that a$5 per family
per site is a...is a significant obstacle to doing that and so I'm ready to have the vote
and accept the outcome.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, Councilmember Chang.
28
. •
Mr. Chang: Yes, I just wanted to clarify the proposed
amendment by Councilmember Kawakami and myself. Please note that the per day
for the out-of-state is back to what the administration recommended, that
we're...we're charging by the campsite and not by the per person. So that was
the...the changes and very briefly, just to recap, I...I wanted to say aloha to Lenny
Rapozo because just so...just to recap by slowly going through the campsites and to
figure out the parking, the...the lavatory and restroom facilities, the shower
facilities, I think it's a great idea because this whole point is to once again monitor
to how we can best make this a good up...upscale, if you will or as you mentioned, a
different kind of campground, but I think just going back to the whole point to be
consistent with the island, we're not charging our local residents to camp. I had
stated a little earlier, it was very difficult but we had to raise the rate for the
golfers, but I put that in context of being a little bit more of an individual recreation
sport. You know, people, we had to unfortunately raise the bus rate and people use
that as a source of work or transportation, school or what have you, but
we're...we're talking about family right here and we're talking about a longer
extended activity, by that again meaning camping, so myself personally is I don't
want to charge none of our local residents and I believe that we are fair with the
visitors on a campsite fee and a group camping' site fee. But for now, and we
will...we will monitor this, but I don't want to have the local residents be charged
for using Lydgate Park or any other parks. Thank you.
Ms. Kawahara: Any other comments by councilmembers? No? I do
want to say that I a1so...I...I would like for the pax...all the parks to be free and I
am...I'm...I'm happy with this amendment for the non-residents and also that the
concern that Councilmember Kaneshiro raised about being sure that the local
people get preference over the...making sure that they have a good chance and a
shot at getting most of the sites. The reason why I'm...I'm thinking I'm wanting to
do the fee is because it is again, I think there's a value to what that...what the...this
area and this Lydgate Park camping provides that I...that I think that the people
and our residents, it wouldn't obstruct or make it harder for them to...to actually
camp there or use it. I definitely hear the other councilmembers because I know...I
know about non-service fees and...and having to do service rates. But I...I still
think that this is a unique campsite and I think the willingness to recognize that
with a fee makes it that much more valuable and people will be flocking to it. So, if
that's the end because I was the last one...with that...okay, with that all those favor
of the floor amendment say, aye.
The motion to further amend Bill No. 2149 as amended herein was then put,
and carried by a vote of 3:2 (Councilmembers Bynum and Kawahara voting no).
Ms. Kawahara: So the ayes...motion carried. Okay. Now, yes,
Council Chair.
Mr. Asing: Can I make a comment?
Ms. Kawahara: One second. Motion carried by a vote of 4 to L.
Mr. Bynum: No, 5 to...3 to 2. Ms. Kawahara: 3...
Mr. Kaneshiro: 3 to 2.
29
• •
Ms. Kawahara: 3 to 2, 3 to 2 because they're not there. Oh yeah,
he's not on the committee. Okay, 3 to 2. And mister...Chair Asing, what in regards
to?
Mr. Asing: Yes, yeah, thank you. I...I just wanted to say two
things in...and it is in reference to the counter-statement made by Councilmember
Bynum. Councilmember Bynum made the state...a statement that we didn't need
to create ADU si...ADA use sites...ADA sites. That's not a true statement. We.
need to do that in order to open up the campsite, you need to do that. It's a
requirement. So that statement is in error. It's a wrong statement. It's not true.
Another statement that was made by Councilmember Bynum is that it came from
the parks division. When you look at it if you look at the ordinance, you will note
that in the very end "introduced by" you will find in parentheses "by request" which
means that it came from someplace else. So, I just wanted to make sure that it's
framed correctly.
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you. Was that complete?
Mr. Asing: It's not from the administration. It's by request, so
with that, thank you.
Ms. Kawahara: Was that it? Okay and I would like to give you
your chance to...to respond and then I think we're done with that. Go ahead,
Councilmember Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Yeah, I...I'm really glad that we have ADA
campsites there and I believe my statement was accurate unless the law has
changed that those were only guidelines and not requirements, but you know, that's
neither here nor there because they are there; I'm glad they're there. We're going to
make sure that they are in compliance with the...what DCAB wants and I thought
"by request" means that the councilmember who introduced it did it at the request
of the administration. So, but I don't think that either of those issues relates to how
we vote here today, so.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, we're going to go back to the main motion as
amended and we need a motion...no, we gotta discuss. Okay, this is now time for
further discussion...no? Okay, we're on the main motion as amended. Is there any
further discussion? Councilmember Kaneshiro.
Mr. Kaneshiro: Thank you, Madam Chair, I would...before I make
my request, I wanted to state that I guess we're going to be hearing from the
Committee of Public Safety on some of the issues that were brought up today as
people did speak about...as the public...did speak about some concerns they had.
So, if I may, Madam Chair, with your consideration, I would like to ask for a
deferral up to that point when we have that discussion take place with
Mr. Kawakami's committee.
. Ms. Kawahara: Okay.
Mr. Kaneshiro: So, before I make the motion...
Ms. Kawahara: So is there a second?
Mr. Kawakami: Second.
30
• . ~
Mr. Bynum: That was a motion to defer? So we can't have a
discussion.
Ms. Kawahara: Oh, do I have a...
Mr. Kaneshiro: Once you second it, and we're going to move forward, we can't have no more discussion, so.
Ms. Kawahara: Oh...oh, wait...
Mr. Kaneshiro: I said before I make that motion.
Mr. Bynum: Before? So you haven't made it yet?
Mr. Kaneshiro: Well.
Mr. Bynum: Because I'm not going to disagree.
Mr. Kaneshiro: Okay, up to the Chair.
Ms. Kawahara: (Inaudible.)
Mr. Bynum: I just would like to have a little discussion and then
I'll most likely support Mr. Kaneshiro's motion.
Mr. Kawakami: Would you like me to withdraw my second so that
we can have this discussion? Would that help? I withdraw my motion to defer...my
second...I withdraw my second to defer.
Mr. Kaneshiro: Okay, I withdraw my motion to defer.
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you. Thank you for being patient with the
Chair of the Committee.
Mr. Kawakami: No, no, not, not...
Ms. Kawahara: Chair of the Committee. Okay, discussion on the
main motion as amended. .
Mr. Bynum: Yes. Yeah, and...and I'm going to have no
opposition to deferring this item today. I just wanted an opportunity to...to make a
few comments unrelated to fees. The...yeah, which is that as I've said too many
times today this has been on the floor many times. We've gone through six or seven
years of planning and, you know, these campsites were mostly built by volunteers,
hundreds of volunteers who, you know, had the desire to do the camping at Lydgate
and I know that there's...it seems like there's support on this committee to open the
campgrounds when we can. The last remaining thing that we were waiting for was
the DCAB review, which needs to lead to, you know, doing these changes that
they've approved, which is basically pouring a sidewalk, rebuilding one of the pads
and putting in a sink, I think is the scope of work. And we received that in July of
last year, okay. And so at the time Mayor Carvalho was the parks director and was
the chair of the parks committee and I said, well, let's get the campgrounds open.
How about we...we, you know, put this amendment...oh, put this back on the floor
and get the ordinance going. And it was like towards the end of the summer and we
were like, well, let's shoot for next summer. You know, we got a lot going on
between July and December of last year. I'll say it, we were both involved in an
31
election campaign and it's like okay, we'll get these open. Now what needs to
happen is this ordinance needs to be complete and the parks department's choice is
to not open it and it's their choice and I respect that until the improvements are
done. Well, this campground has been virtually done, other than these few things,
for five years and I know people would like to camp there and so the administration
is responsible to do those changes. We spent probably a million dollars in this area
making this facility available and for the lack of $95,000 or pouring a sidewalk and
building a platform and you know, we...we have to wait for that to get done and I
would think that would have some level of urgency and I'm concerned that the
administration didn't have clearer answer about how they intend jo do that in a
timeline. If it's money that they need to do that, it could have been in the budget.
Mr. Rapozo said that there was a...it's like a second choice on...
Ms. Kawahara: Alter...
Mr. Bynum: Yeah.
Ms. Kawahara: ...alternate list. -
Mr. Bynum: CDBG alternate. But...and I believe that also this
work could be done in-house. So I would just encourage the administration to give
this some sense of urgency so we can open the campgrounds. When I heard it would
be another year, you know, basically we need to pour a sidewalk, build a platforxn
and put in a sink and complete this ordinance which I think we will eventually
come to concurrence on and I would hope that we could do it sooner than a year.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, thank you, thank you for your forbearance on
my inexperience for doing the vote. Council Chair...Council Kaneshiro.
Mr. Kaneshiro: With that I would like to make a motion to defer
based on the fact that after we hear from Mr. Kawakami's committee, which is
the...whenever he is going to have his committee up in discussion on safety issues,
then we will put this back on the agenda. I'm not certain when we can schedule
that, so I left...I want to leave it open, but after we have that discussion with
Mr. Kawakami's committee for the record, then we'll have this back on the agenda
for us to proceed on. So with that, I'm making a motion to defer.
Mr. Kawakami: Second. ,
Councilmember Kaneshiro moved to defer Bill No. 2149, as amended herein
to Bill No. 2149, Draft l, pending discussion of safety issues in the SEI Committee,
seconded by Councilmember Kawakami.
Ms. Kawahara: All those in favor say, aye. Those no? Motion
carried.
The motion to defer was then put, and unanimously carried.
Ms. Kawahara: Now we're done. Is there further business, Madam
Clerk?
Ms. Akiona: None, Madam Chair.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, then we're adjourned. Thank you.
32
There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 12:26 p.m.
Respectfully submitted,
Wtl,lvw C{;(40hA,
Wilma Akiona
Sec'retary
APPROVED at the Committee Meeting held on July 15, 2009:
LANI T. KAWAHARA .
Chair, Parks/'Iransportation Committee
33
• ' • • Floor Amendment No. 1
Page 1 of 4
June 10, 2009
FLOOR AMENDMENT
Bill No. 2149, Relating to Camping at Lydgate Park
Introduced by: Tim Bynum
Amend Bill No. 2149 in its entirety as follows:
"SECTION 1. Sectionl9-2.1 of the Kaua`i County Code 1987 is hereby
amended as follows:
Sec.l9-2.1 Purpose.
An Article to establish proper controls over the use of county parks, except for
Lvd,gate Park, so that the people will have the optimum use and enjoyment of the
parks."
SECTION 2. Chapter 19 of the Kaua`i County Code 1987, is hereby
amended by adding a new Article 4 to read as follows:
ARTICLE 4. CAMPING AT LYDGATE PAR,K
Sec.19-4.1 Definitions.
"Person with a disabilitv" is a person with a disabilitv as defined in Hawai`i
Rev_ised Statutes, Section 291-51, and Section 11-219-4, Hawai`i Administrative
Rules.
"Parkina Permit Placard" means a two-sided haner-stvle windshield placard
with the international svmbol of access on it, issued bv the department of motor
vehicles for a person who has been certified with a temporarv or permanent
disabilitv bv a practicina phvsician.
"Special License Plates" means license plates displa,ying the international
svmbol of access in a color contrasting to the background and with the same size as
the letters and numbers on the plates, issued bv the department of motor vehicles to
a person whose disabilitv is expected to last for at least four vears as certified bv a
practicing phvsician.
"Group Camping" means twentv (20) or more people listed on a camping
permit not to exceed two hundred (200) persons.
• Floor Amendment No. 1
• • Page 2 of 4
"Service Animal" means an animal individuallv trained to do work or perform
tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disabilitv.
Sec.l9-4.2 Purpose.
An article to establish proper controls over the use of Lvdgate Park so that
the people will have the optimum use and enjovment of said park.
Sec.19-4.3 Title.
This Article shall be known as and mav be cited as the "Lvdgate Park
Camping Ordinance."
Sec. 19.4-4 When Permit Required; Time For Issuance.
(a) Any person who camps, erects a tent or constructs anv temporary
sleeping quarters at the Lvdgate Park Designated Camping Area shall first obtain a
camping permit from the Department of Parks and Recreation or an authorized
countv agencv.
(b) Permits shall be issued during the hours of 8:15 a.m. - 4:00 p.m. by the
Department of Parks and Recreation or other a encv that is designated bv the
Director of the Department of Parks and Recreation.
Sec. 19-4.5 Permit Terms and Conditions.
(a) The Department of Parks and Recreation shall issue a campina permit
upon the following terms and conditions:
(1) One permit shall be issued for each of the thirtv-one (31)
numbered camping sites which contains a 10' x 10' or 20' x 20' tent area, or
the group-camp site.
(2) Accessible sites are reserved for a qualified person with a
disabilitv.
(a) Identification of a qualifying Qerson with a disability
requires the individual to provide the Fiscal Management Division
with a current parking permit placard or evidence of special license
l,p ates•
(b) One of the three accessible camping sites shall be
reserved exclusively for a group that includes an individual, or
individuals, with a qualifvingg disability.
° ' • Floor Amendment No. 1
•
Pgge 3 of 4
(c) In the event all non-accessible sites are issued, an
accessible site mav be issued to a non-qualified user as long as one
accessible site is left available for a person with a qualifying disabilitv.
(1) In the event one of the accessible sites is issued to a
non-qualified user (because all other sites, non-accessible and
accessible sites, have been issued accordinglv) and a quali ing
individual with a disabilitv requests an accessible site, the
qualified individual with the disability shall wait until there is a
vacancv.
(2) Qualified individuals with disabilities have first
choice of the accessible sites but are not precluded from camping
at a non-accessible site.
(3) There shall be a maximum of five (5) people per 10' x 10'
camping site and ten (10) people per 20' x 20' camping site at anv one time.
The names of the campers shall be stated on the permit.
(4) No permit shall be issued to allow camping and no one shall be
allowed to camp for more than five (5) consecutive davs at Lvdgate Park.
(5) The number of davs camped at Lvdgate Park shall be included
in the sixtv (60) camping davs maximum Yearlv limit set forth in
Section 19-2.4(4).
(6) The camping site shall be closed for maintenance everv Tuesday
from 10:01 a.m. through Thursday at 12:00 noon.
(7) Camping shall be allowed from 12:00 noon to 10:00 a.m.
(8) Tents and structures shall be placed only on the designated tent
areas.
(9) A oup camping permit includes exclusive use of the oup
camp pavilion.
(10) Each permitted camper shall leave the premises in a sanitary,
clean, and orderly condition.
(11) Each permitted camper must displav the permit to any
authorized countv officer, employee, or contractor.
(12) Failure to comply with any of the above conditions shall result
in the permit being revoked.
• 1
' • Floor Amendment No.
Page 4 of 4
Sec.19-4.6 Fees.
The following camping fees shall be collected at the time the permit is issued:
(1) Campina site (State Residents) $5.00 per day
(2) Group camping site (State Residents) $75.00 per dav
(3) Camping site $25.00 per dav
4 Group Camping site $150.00 per day
Sec. 19-4.7 Animals Prohibited.
Animals, with the exception of service animals, are prohibited from being
brought into the campina area. The county park caretaker, or other county
emplovee authorized bv the Director of the Department of Parks and Recreation,
shall ask that the animal be removed from the campina area, and for failure to
complv therewith, the paxk caretaker or other countv emplovee mav summarilv
revoke the campina permit.
Sec. 19-4.8 Campina Without Permits.
Any person found camping without a permit by the countv park caretaker or
other countv emplovee authorized bv the Director of the Department of Parks and
Recreation mav be evicted from Lvdgate Park.
Sec.19-4.9. Penaltv.
Anv person found camping in the Lvdgate Park without a camping permit
shall be punished bv a fine not exceedina One Hundred Dollars ($100.00). Each day
of violation shall be a separate offense."
(Material to be added is underscored. Material to be deleted is bracketed.)
V • ~ Floor Amendment No. 2
Page 1 of 2
(June 10, 2009)
FLOOR AMENDMENT
Bill No. 2149, Relating to Camping at Lydgate Park
Introduced by: Tim Bynum
Amend Section 19-4.5 of Bill No. 2149 to read as follows:
"Sec. 19-4.5 Permit Terms and Conditions.
(a) The Department of Parks and Recreation shall issue a camping permit
upon the following terms and conditions:
(1) One permit shall be issued for each of the thirty-one (31)
numbered camping sites which contains a 10' x 10' or 20' x 20' tent area, or
the group-camp site.
(2) Accessible sites are reserved for a qualified person with a
disability.
(a) Identification of a qualifying person with a disability
requires the individual to provide the Fiscal Management Division
with a current parking permit placard or evidence of special license
plates.
(b) One of the three accessible camping sites shall be
reserved exclusively for a group that includes an individual, or
individuals, with a qualifying disability.
(c) In the event all non-accessible sites are issued, an
accessible site may be issued to a non-qualified user as long as one
accessible site is left available for a person with a qualifying disability.
(1) In the event one of the accessible sites is issued to a
non-qualified user (because all other sites, non-accessible and
accessible sites, have been issued accordingly) and a qualifying
individual with a disability requests an accessible site, the
qualified individual with the disability shall wait until there is a
vacancy.
(2) Qualified individuals with disabilities have first
choice of the accessible sites but are not precluded from camping
at a non-accessible site.
-~ • • Floor Amendment No. 2
Page 2 of 2
(3) There shall be a maximum of five (5) people per 10' x 10'
camping site and ten (10) people per 20' x 20' camping site at any one time.
The names of the campers shall be stated on the permit.
(4) No permit shall be issued to allow camping and no one shall be
allowed to camp for more than five (5) consecutive days at Lydgate Park.
(5) The number of days camped at Lydgate Park shall be included
in the sixty (60) camping days maximum yearly limit set forth in
Section 19-2.4(4).
(6) The camping site [shall] mav be closed for maintenance [every
Tuesday from 10:01 a.m. through Thursday at 12:00 noon.] at the discretion
of the Director of Parks and Recreation.
[(7) Camping shall be allowed from 12:00 noon to 10:00 a.m.]
[(8)] (7) Tents and structures shall be placed only on the
designated tent areas.
[(9)] La~ A group camping permit includes exclusive use of the
group camp pavilion.
[(10)] (9) Each permitted camper shall leave the premises in a
sanitary, clean, and orderly condition.
[(11)] 10 Each permitted camper must display the permit to any
authorized county officer, employee, or contractor.
[(12)] 11 Failure to comply with any of the above conditions shall result in the permit being revoked.
(New material to be added is underscored. Material to be deleted is bracketed. All
material is new.)
• " ~ ~ Floor Amendment No. 3
June 10, 2009
FLOOR AMENDMENT
Bill No. 2149, Relating to Camping at Lydgate Park
Introduced by: Derek S. K. Kawakami
Amend Section 19-4.6 of Bill No. 2149 to read as follows:
"Sec. 19-4.6 Fees
The following camping fees shall be collected at the time the permit is issued:
(1) Camping site (State Residents) [$5.00 per day]
No Fee
(2) Group camping site (State Residents) [$75•00 per day]
No Fee
(3) Camping site [$25.00 per day]
$3.00 per person per day
(4) Group Camping site [$150.00 per day]
$3.00 per person per day"
(New material to be added is underscored. Material to be deleted is bracketed. All
material is new.)
, , ,
Floor Amendment No. 4
June 10, 2009
FLOOR AMENDMENT
Bill No. 2149, Relating to Camping at Lydgate Park
Introduced by: Derek S. K. Kawakami and Dickie Chang
Amend Section 19-4.6 of Bill No. 2149 to read as follows:
"Sec. 19-4.6 Fees
The following camping fees shall be collected at the time the permit is issued:
(1) Camping site (State Residents) [$5.00 per day]
No Fee
(2) Group camping site (State Residents) [$75.00 per day]
No Fee
(3) Camping site $25.00 per day
(4) Group Camping site $150.00 per day
(New material to be added is underscored. Material to be deleted is bracketed. All
material is new.)
~ •
MINUTES
PARKS/TRANSPORTATION CONIIVIITTEE
July 15, 2009
A meeting of the Parks/Transportation Committee of the Council of the
County of Kaua`i, State of Hawai`i, was called to order by Councilmember
Lani T. Kawahara, Chair, at the Historic County Building, Room 201, Lihu`e,
Kaua`i, on Wednesday, July 15, 2009, at 9:38 a.m., after which the following
members answered the call of the roll:
Honorable Tim Bynum
Honorable Dickie Chang
Honorable Daryl W. Kaneshiro
Honorable Lani T. Kawahara
Honorable Derek S. K. Kawakami
Honorable Bill "Kaipo" Asing, Ex-Officio Member
Honorable Jay Furfaro, Ex-Officio Member
Minutes of the June 10, 2009 Parks/Transportation Committee Meeting.
Upon motion duly made by Councilmember Bynum, seconded by
Councilmember Kaneshiro, and unanimously carried, the Minutes of the
June 10, 2009 Parks/Transportation Committee Meeting was approved.
There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 9:39 a.m.
Respectfully submitted, Wilma Akiona
Secretary '
• •
MINUTES
PARKS/TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE
, August 12, 2009
A meeting of the Parks/Transportation Committee of the Council of the
County of Kaua`i, State of Hawai`i, was called to order by Councilmember Lani
Kawahara, Chair, at the Historic County Building, Room 201, Lihu`e, Kaua`i, on
Wednesday, August 12, 2009, at 9:46 a.m., after which the following members
answered the call of the roll:
Honorable Lani T. Kawahara
Honorable Tim Bynum
Honorable Dickie Chang
Honorable Daryl W. Kaneshiro
Honorable Derek S. K. Kawakami
Honorable Bill "Kaipo" Asing, Ex-Officio Member Honorable Jay Furfaro, Ex-Officio Member
There being no objections, the Committee recessed at 9:48 a.m. The
Committee reconvened at 10:06 a.m., and proceeded on its agenda item as shown in
the following Committee report which is incorporated herein by reference:
CR-PKT 2009-02: on PKT 2009-1 Communication (7/23/2009) from Randy
Wichman (on behalf of the Board of Directors
of Hui Malama O Kaneiolouma), requesting
agenda time to brief the County Council with
a historical overview of the Po`ipu Beach
Mauka Preserve, Kaneiolouma Heiau
Complex.
[Received for the record.]
There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 11:05 a.m.
Respectfully submitted,
Darrellyne M. Simao
Council Services Assistant I
APPROVED at the Committee Meeting held on August 26, 2009:
LANI T. KAWAHAR,A
Chair, Parks/Transportation Committee
MINUTE S
PAR,KS/TR.ANSPORTATION CONIIVIITTEE August 26, 2009
A meeting of the Parks/Transportation Committee of the Council of the
County of Kaua`i, State of Hawai`i, was called to order by Councilmember
Lani T. Kawahara, Chair, at the Historic County Building, Room 201, Lihu`e,
Kaua`i, on Wednesday, August 26, 2009, at 9:44 a.m., after which the following
members answered the call of the roll: Honorable Tim Bynum
Honorable Dickie Chang
Honorable Lani T. Kawahara
Honorable Derek S. K. Kawakami ,
Honorable Bill "Kaipo" Asing, Ex-Officio Member
Honorable Jay Furfaro, Ex-Officio Member
EXCUSE: Daryl W. Kaneshiro
Minutes of the August 12, 2009 Parks/Transportation Committee Meeting.
Upon motion duly made by Councilmember Bynum, seconded by
Councilmember Chang, and unanimously carried, the Minutes of the August
12, 2009 Parks/Transportation Committee Meeting was approved.
The Committee proceeded on its agenda item as shown in the following
Committee report which is incorporated herein by reference:
CR-PKT 2009-03: on Bill No. 2320 A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE TO AMEND
CHAPTER 19, KAUA`I COUNTY CODE
1987,. AS AMENDED, RELATING TO
' PUBLIC PAR.KS AND RECREATION
[Approved.] -
There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 10:07 a.m.
Respectfully submitted,
~~Wvm-fn ftaP
Darrellyne M. Simao
Council Services Assistant I
. APPROVED at the Committee Meeting held on September 16, 2009:
LANI T. KAWAHARA
Chair, Parks/'Iransportation Committee