HomeMy WebLinkAbout01-27-2010-Doc15866 (2)
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MINUTE S
BUDGET & FINANCE CONIlVIITTEE
January 27, 2010
A meeting of the Budget & Finance Committee of the Council of the
County of Kaua`i, State of Hawai`i, was called to order by Councilmember Bill
"Kaipo" Asing, Vice Chair, at the Historic County Building, Room 201, Lihu`e,
Kaua`i, on Wednesday, January 27, 2010, at 9:05 a.m., after which the following
members answered the call of the roll:
Honorable Bill "Kaipo" Asing
Honorable Tim Bynum
Honorable Dickie Chang
Honorable Jay Furfaro
Honorable Lani T. Kawahara
Honorable Derek S. K. Kawakami
Excused: Honorable Daryl W. Kaneshiro
BILL "KAIPO" ASING (COMMITTEE VICE CHAIR): Good morning
everybody.
BC (check your mic)
Mr. Asing: I like to call the Budget and Finance
Committee to order. Please note Councilmember and Chair of the Committee Daryl
Kaneshiro is in a meeting...
BC (can't hear him, Peter.)
Mr. Asing: (inaudible).
JAY FURFAR,O (COMMITTEE MEMBER): Your voice isn't strong, he said.
Mr. Asing: Can you hear me now?
Mr. Furfaro: Are you okay?
BC (very faint, I can hear Jay a little bit.)
Mr. Furfaro: Can you get the Chair another mic?
Mr. Asing: Can you hear me now?
BC (nope.)
Mr. Asing: Is everybody's mic on?
DICHIE CHANG (COMMITTEE MEMBER): Hello. Abby Santos, Nokaoi
plants.
Mr. Asing: Why don't we try one (1) mic at a time.
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BC (Okay I can hear you now Kaipo but very faint.)
Mr. Asing: Very faint.
Mr. Chang: Try Daryl's, try that other mic.
Mr. Asing: How about now, can you hear me? I
BC, are we okay now?
BC (great.)
Mr. Asing: Okay the meeting is now called to order.
Please note that all members are present, except for Councilmember Kaneshiro who
is the Chair of the Committee. He is presently on the mainland meeting with bond
counsel on the bond issues together with the Director of Finance. With that can we
have the first item please?
The Committee proceeded on its agenda items as shown in the following
Committee reports which are incorporated herein by reference:
C 2010-10 Communication (12/24/2009) from the Fire Chief, requesting
Council approval to fund the cost of the acquisition of a public
use helicopter via a 10-yeax lease to be used to enhance and
support search and rescue, firefighting, ocean safety, training
and other services of the Kaua`i Fire Department and other departments in the County of Kaua`i.
[This item was deferred.]
Mr. Asing: It is my intention to defer this item. My
reason for deferring this item is that there's two (2) reasons behind it. One (1) is
I'm going to ask for a deferral because we have also, this is a two (2) part program,
the first part is this communication which is the communication for the lease
purchase. The second part of this is Bill twenty-three, forty-five (2345). Tventy-
three, forty-five (2345) will give the appropriation for the first year of two hundred
eighty-five thousand dollars ($285,000) and that is up for public hearing next week.
So what I'd like to do is to defer and have those two (2) bills, one communication
and the bill, up in the next Committee Meeting so that's the reason. So before we
entertain that motion to defer, I'm going to open it up to the public first for any one
in the public who wants to speak on this item. So the rules are suspended, is there
anyone in the audience who wants to speak on this item?
There being no objections, the rules were suspended.
GARDNER BROWN: My name is Gardner Brown, I'm with
the Safari Aviation, I'm their Chief Pilot. I also have a background of twenty (20)
years of service with the Honolulu Fire Department as their former Chief Pilot. It's
been bought to my attention through several events over, within the last six (6)
months that rescue helicopter service was brought to a close. And then the
Council... and I should say the County has been trying to fill that need and in that
process of filling that need, what they found out that the service to the public was in
my opinion inadequate but it provided a service. The inadequacy level that I'm
aware of is having a fully funded operation with the Honolulu Fire Department. .
The... it's not looking at what service was here but basically what you have fallen
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into in trying to maintain a service. You used to have a service, a person decided to
leave and that service was taken away from you. Now you're trying... you
understand the problems concerning the lack of that service and having to adapt to
it. From watching other events that have happened recently, the adaptation is all
on the moment, it's a reaction. And the public is lacking the full potential of the
helicopter service. The amount of training that goes in to give the Fire Department
its level of response, the amount of familiarity with the organization that is flying
the aircraft that is none existent that is my opinion. And without having some kind
of familiarity, the service becomes detrimental and almost dangerous and of course
this is all from my past experience of having made the mistakes before and
corrected them. The Fire Department suffered a lot when we began our program in
1970. What I'm trying to do is keep Kaua`i County from suffering the same areas
that we had and those areas cost people their lives, so that' s what I'm trying to do
it. To assist the Chief and as well as what I'm aware of with the Department. Are
there any particular questions that the Committee has?
Mr. Asing: Okay I'll open it up to Councilmembers.
With that Councilmember Furfaro.
Mr. Furfaro: Thank you Mr. Chair. Thank you for being
here. With your experience in Honolulu, I'm sure you are familiar with the
Operating Budget for this specific division. What was the typical total operating
budget in Honolulu for air rescue and how many pieces of equipment did it include?
Mr. Brown: I can tell you that we started out at the very,
very cheap aircraft that was donated to us. And at that time our operating budget
was somewhere along the line of four hundred thousand dollars ($400,000) per year.
We were limited, we were beginning the program. Eventually what happened is we
got into the more expensive turban aircraft. The expenses immediately doubled.
We provided our own pilots, we provided our own training. We went through a
huge learning curve. Currently I'm not sure what their budget is but I would say
safely it's well over a million dollars a year. But their service entails certain things
and items that may be in excess because of what they do there and the population
that they're servicing.
Mr. Furfaro: Yes.
Mr. Brown: We have... as far as the financial estimate of
what is available now, Preston Myers would know that information currently. He
studied the cost of operation and what it entails of having your own pilot. Other
organizations like Road a Wing, provide service in a different manner. The county
buys their aircraft, Road a Wing provides maintenance service and a pilot. I don't
know what their numbers are, but all of that is accessible.
Mr. Furfaro: As this Honolulu program evolved through
its evolution with first having a donated air rescue operation, do they now currently
own the equipment or do they lease-purchase?
Mr. Brown: I understand that they bought a... several
aircraft through the twenty (20) years that I was with them. They have their own
Hughs five hundred (500), no tar but the affordability of that... I mean they have
the population and the tax structure to afford that. What they realize though is
that they cannot- do without it.
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Mr. Furfaro: Do they get any subsidy from the State
because much of their rescue is on State land?
Mr. Brown: Not that I'm aware of. I do know that we
have a what we call a mutual agreement with other organizations. Mutual
agreement allows... let's see, United States Army, Navy, if there is a fire on their
property, we assist them. If we have a situation where we don't have our aircraft
available, then the coastguard or the Army will provide the service we would
provide so we're sharing technically the cost internally, and that would mean
something that I would have you look at and you have other organizations like
DLNR, the Police Department, other functions that require helicopter service
within your own county structure. You can divert some of their finances into what
the Fire Department look like and this kind of spreads the cost out, it's not all on
one (1) Department.
Mr. Furfaro: Well I think your comment about population
and tax base for you know for loss prevention is a very good one. I mean I believe
Chief, we have seven (7) Fire Departments? Seven (7) units here? You know here
on Kaua`i, we have seven (7) units, we have sixty-four thousand (64,000) people, you
know along the Leeward Coast they have three (3) stations but it's spread out on a
hundred and forty thousand (140,000) population. You know you got Makua,
Makaha, Puea, Lululei, Pokai Bay, you know Nanakuli Maile, Ka Maile, it is... it is
effective in a sense when you have a little bigger tax base to spread it out on.
Mr. Brown: Excuse me Councilman but one of the areas
that was reasonably discussed with members of your Kaua`i Department, Fire
Department, was when you had a commercial service in the past, everything was
reactive. You had to wait for the aircraft to come in and you weren't sure who was
going to fly it, the aircraft. So the familiarity of a pilot with the assignment is
questionable sometimes. Now the other thing that I brought to bare is that you
never had the opportunity to have a rescue system prearranged. In Honolulu Fire
Department and when the surf was up in Waimea, we pre-positioned our aircraft
from Honolulu to Waimea, we left it there through the course of the day when we
knew that the use of the waves and the potential was high. And what I brought up
to the Fire Department's attention is, the most critical response is going to be
swimmer in distress, the term used in the radio call. Well we had more drownings
on this island than most of the other counties. By having a system that's already in
position to provide that service, you have a potential answer to some of the
questions that have been going... on-going for several decades on this county. And
this is an idea that was never perceived before because you always had to wait for a
commercial entity to arrive before you can institute that procedure. So there are
other undergoing reasons for you to seriously look at this because it goes beyond
firefighting. It provides a service that time becomes critical, instead of waiting for
somebody and then wondering if the person can do the job as far as the pilot is a
concern, you have a trained unit that can respond to an area. Water rescues are
difficult because, if a person is in trouble in water and he gets tired through the
life... things that he had to do to survive, the more he's in the water, the more
probability that he's not going to survive.
Mr. Furfaro: Yes. I understand. I was a water safety
instructor for the City and County of Honolulu for three (3) years while I was going
to hotel school so I certainly understand the variable (mic drifting - inaudible)
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Mr. Brown: Yes.
Mr. Furfaro: But what's before us right now.
BC (mic drifting in and out Jay.)
Mr. Furfaro: What's before us?... You got it?
BC (now.)
Mr. Furfaro: What's before us today is a only one (1)
option and that is the option for lease-purchase, there's no 'option here for flat out
capital budget...
BC (going back and forth.)
Mr. Furfaro: Going back and forth? Thank you Mr.
Chang. There's no other option here, nor is there real clarity on other than the
capital lease, there's no clarity to what the operating cost are. So to much of a
degree and I concur you know we have a heliport up at the North Shore, you know
what maybe in the winter when we have this outstanding year of surf, maybe it's
stationed up at Princeville airport for that particular reason as you described with
them doing the same with Wheeler in Waimea but the question is this Council
needs to know all of the particulars, this bill is coming up next week doesn't give us
the option to look at the purchase, it only gives us the option to look at the lease and
you know we have to consider, we have a very limited base to pass on this expenses.
Were you involved in any kind of work with the Chief maybe to kind of calculate
those additional cost, pilot, training, mechanics, those other particulars?
Mr. Brown: To some degree I have been but Mr. Myers
have done more of the economics of it. I've been focusing on the firefighting ship
and rescue side of it and looking at what's necessary as equipment to put on board
the aircraft and looking at what they wanted to buy and trying to tone that down to
say well let's look at the requirements and filling in the fundamentals first instead
of having a big wish list and realizing that we can do the job by using other
techniques or finding other pieces of equipment.
Mr. Furfaro: So with your expertise Mr. Brown it's safe to
say, you're helping to create the "must have list" as far as the amenities versus the
overall wish list for...
Mr. Brown: That's correct.
Mr. Furfaro: Oh okay.
Mr. Brown: And try to find a more reasonable financial
or economical means of providing the service.
Mr. Furfaro: Thank you very much for your help on that
and I appreciate your testimony this morning.
Mr. Brown: Thank you.
Mr. Furfaro: Somebody else may have questions, those
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were just mine.
Mr. Asing: Okay anyone else? Councilmember Bynum.
TIM BYNUM (COMMITTEE MEMBER): Thank you Mr. Brown for your
testimony, I received the written thing just this morning... I skimmed it and um so
I just wanted to make sure I got the issues clear, I think we've been all aware of the
need to eventually to have a aircraft dedicated to public safety as opposed to using a
commercial aircraft and as I understand you know... what we've been doing is using
commercial aircraft, commercial pilots that in an emergency kind of switch hats,
right?
Mr. Brown: That's correct.
Mr. Bynum: And so what I hear from your testimony and
what I heard from the Fire Department is that means the aircraft might not be
properly equipped for safety and rescue, the pilot may not have the training and
expertise focused on that type of use, have I got that right?
Mr. Brown: That's correct.
Mr. Bynum: Okay and um... and then also because we
haven't had a dedicated aircraft we lacked in the level and the effectiveness of the
training for our firefighters and the pilot.
Mr. Brown: It actually diminish some of the training that
the firefighters will have because of the level of the training that the pilot has, may
not be up to the standard that the Fire Department team has acquired so they got
to back off so, to have the coordination between the two (2) and an element that is
very, very high risk, you've just increased the risk of the operation.
Mr. Bynum: So the issue before the Council and our
community is how we meet these needs more effectively... what aircraft do we
purchase and with what kind of equipment, you know do we purchase it outright or
do we have a lease arrangement or contract...
Mr. Brown: That's correct.
Mr. Bynum: With a private provider, those are the things
that I think we're all trying to do our due diligence to sort out what those options.
The other thing that you addressed at the end of your testimony that I think is
really important is a cooperative use of this aircraft with Police, Fire, perhaps State ,
Agencies, DLNR, you know that it's a very capital, it's a lot of money. It's a lot of
money for the county to spend. And so we want to make sure that we get all of the
use we need, and so I'm interested in this process of hearing from the Police
Department of how much integration and dialog there's been between Police and
Fire. Does this end up being a County of Kaua`i helicopter that has multiple uses
for the county or is it a fire?
Mr. Brown: It's a suggestion only because of the
economics that we're facing. Honolulu has maintained separate fire and police, at
one time when the Police Department was without an aircraft, the Fire Department
basically allowed our aircraft to function with the Police and the Police knowing
that if there is an emergency call, where life is in danger, then it reverted back to
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the Fire Department. We operated that situation for two and a half (2 1/2) years so
as far as the county is concerned you have to list your priorities and find a way of
managing the entity itself, the aircraft.
Mr. Bynum: I think that collaboration is really important
because of the scale of our island, we probably, it will be a very long time if ever
that we have dedicated aircraft for both Police and Fire.
Mr. Brown: Surely.
Mr. Bynum: And so you know collaborating and working
out those agreements, but I hadn't thought of about what you suggested in your
testimony that perhaps there's State agencies and DLNR that could possibly be
partners with the county to spread the cost of that around and I think that's worth
exploring so I appreciate that input and thank you for your willingness to come and
share your knowledge and history with the county. Thank you very much.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Any other? Councilmember
Chang.
Mr. Chang: Thank you Chair. Gardner Brown thank you
very much. Just wanted to point out, I just wanted to let the viewing audience and
the public that I want to thank you personally having the initiative to take things
on your own to meeting and speak with the Fire Chief and of course meeting with
Butch Keahiolalo. I know that there have been questions about a huge five hundred
(500), there's been questions about I think it's an A Star B(2) and I know that
Preston did a little financial analysis as far as the moneys involved quite accurately
so maybe we can get those figures that we can circulate to the fellow
Councilmembers and...
Mr. ? (inaudible- soft)
Mr. Chang: Yeah we'll get that from the Chief per your
relations back and forth with him but I just wanted to take this opportunity to
thank you because there were other you know obviously tour operators that were
interested in getting involved in this process for the safety. I understand, we talked
a little bit about familiarity with the pilots, with the aircraft, with of course the
rescue people and very interesting I live across the street from the gentleman that
reacted to the ultra light and to the rescue out in Kalalau so I kind of got a first
hand experience what it's like to be the person that's being rescued, being in a
helicopter and being with somebody that you trust back and forth and visa versa
and please correct me if I'm wrong because there was a situation in which case a
pilot was asked to perform and conduct a rescue and he ended up coming from Maui
so consequently once he got in the helicopter, they had to tell him where Kalalau
Valley or Kalalau Beach was. I think... was that the understanding? Was an
unfamiliar pilot?
Mr. Brown: I'm not familiar with that in particular but
having somebody that lives and understands the island you know is very, very
important. It's part of the familiarity. And I mean you can say names and even
some people locally may not understand where they are but you know it's part of
experience.
Mr. Chang: So I just want to thank you because when
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you found out what we... what the county was trying to do for the benefit of the
people and the safety effort, I know that you took your own initiative to... to reacli
out to firefighter Keahiolalo and of course our Fire Chief Westerman, so I just
wanted to personally thank yourself and thank you for getting involved.
Mr. Brown: Thank you.
Mr. Asing: Thank you, with that any other questions
Councilmembers? If not I just want to thank you and it was an interesting reading
your communication on the last portion of page one (1) where you describe "the
rescue work the most threatening rescue call is the SWIMMER IN DISTRESS!!!
Then comes an overturn vessel is next. And then an injured hiker call is next. And
a lost hiker would be considered last."
Mr. Brown: Yes sir.
Mr. Asing: Now this is from your experience in
Honolulu.
Mr. Brown: Yes sir.
Mr. Asing: Am I correct?
Mr. Brown: Yes sir.
Mr. Asing: Okay, is there any other questions for Mr. '
Brown?
Ms. Kawahara: I do. ~
Mr. Asing: Go ahead.
Ms. Kawahara: Hi Mr. Brown. Thank you Council Chair.
Thank you for being here. I'm not sure if you have the experience in O`ahu but we
have issues with medical transport from here to off island. Do you have any idea
when you're talking about interagency use, do you have any idea or experience
about medical transport issues and hospitals?
Mr. Brown: Off island transportation...
Ms. Kawahara: Because I know you're from O`ahu so...
Mr. Brown: Yeah.
Ms. Kawahara: So did anybody ever use helicopters to do
medical transport emergency stuff?
Mr. Brown: They do on the Big Island.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay.
Mr. Brown: But that type of transport is termed short
distance. You are trying to pick up... you're referring to EMS, you're trying to pick
up someone with a car accident on... let's say the Big Island and move them to a
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facility in which their traumas can be taken care of. The aircraft that Kaua`i
County... I mean Hawai`i County is using has equipment on board to facilitate EMS
movement or transportation. The aircraft that you're talking about is only for short
haul or short distance use.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay.
Mr. Brown: To efficiently and economically move
somebody from this island to another island, it's much cheaper and much more
affordable to use an aircraft and fix wing.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay.
Mr. Brown: It travels faster and it's lower cost operation.
The helicopter is only for time. Usually... what we have... what we call the golden
hour, if somebody's in a trauma situation the first hour that they have, that person
has to be in a intensive care unit. The longer the person stays without having the
correct medical attention, the possibility of them surviving the trauma goes down.
So the golden hour rule is what the helicopter's use quick transportation to a facility
usually on island.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay. Okay thank you very much.
Mr. Brown: You're welcome.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Hang on please.
Councilmember Chang.
Mr. Chang: Thank you Chair. Just one last question
Gardner, can you let us know how long have you been actually flying here on
Hawai`i? I know it's been sometime but how long have been flying on this island of
Kaua`i?
Mr. Brown: Part time wise as a tour pilot, close to twenty
(20) years. Flying wise, getting closer to thirty (30) years. Throughout the world
and Honolulu.
Mr. Chang: Thank you.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. I have a question for you. Now
while in Honolulu, what was your function? Were you with the Fire Department or
were you doing rescue work or... what exactly did you do in Honolulu?
Mr. Brown: I joined the Honolulu Fire Department in
1971, the aviation program began around that same time. So I was part of it while
it was growing. I came in as a firefighter, as I went through various promotions, I
maintained my connection with the aviation section and eventually became their
chief pilot as the original members retired out of service or/and moved on. So I had
about twenty-two (22) years as a rescue man and as a pilot, so I had both sides of it.
But originally I was a firefighter and worked my way up through the process of
promotions.
Mr. Asing: Okay, great thank you. Councilmember
Furfaro.
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Mr. Furfaro: This is just a follow up Mr. Brown. When we
talk about limited medical use of a air unit, would we be able to use this particular
aircraft that we're focusing on right now? Perhaps for an emergency medivac from
the island of Ni`ihau to the westside hospital? Mr. Brown: Ah?
Mr. Furfaro: Is that on the minimum list? Something like
that?
Mr. Brown: No sir.
Mr. Furfaro: No.
Mr. Brown: Ah the amount of equipment that you would
need to sustain life support is already too costly. The aircraft can do that...that
process but to supplement the equipment to sustain life... I mean that's a separate
issue. That's a very separate issue.
Mr. Furfaro: Just wanted to ask the question, so and
again I wanted to thank you for working with the Chief on preparing this list, thank
you.
Mr. Asing: Thank you very much. With that is there
anyone else wants to speak? Preston.
PRESTON MYERS: Council, I'm Preston Myers. I'm the owner
and operator of Safari Aviation (inaudible) Helicopter Tours. It came to my
attention through Gardner Brown that the County was looking at buying... lease
option a helicopter of a certain particular category and I thought maybe I should
do... throw in another type of helicopter that maybe nobody had thought about
using. It's a helicopter that we presently have in our flight department that we had
used in the mainland, over in Oregon specifically for firefighting, first responder,
rappel, etc...and we even gone up to do work, firefighting at ten thousand five
hundred (10,500) feet in Colorado. U.S. (inaudible) service, we had a contract with
them in Oregon and they would send us all around the United States to different
fire spots (inaudible). That particular helicopter has been back in Hawai`i now for
about three and a half (3 1/a) years and we did not put it on tours, it can do tours but
it,was specifically designed for doing this utility work, it has a rappel kit on it,
things of that sort. It has a litter on board but again when you're talking about
EMS, like Gardner was saying, you have an EMS or emergency medical services,
you have to dedicate the helicopter with all the sustaining equipment, which is
quite expensive. A kit for our particular helico ter as an example would cost an
additional three hundred fifty thousand dollars (~350,000) to install, it's very heavy,
it limits your capability doing other work. In my opinion, EMS and fire rescue is
totally separate type of aircraft to work with. You don't want to try to combine
them because you're going to wined up getting the jack of all trades, the master of
none. You just won't accomplish... you have to give on certain things to do the other
missions. Anyway when I got involved in this I was thinking about the aircraft we
used on the firefighting contract on the mainland is to use the aircraft, it's in very
good shape, we just finished completing what we call a twelve (12) year calendar
inspections where we take the aircraft right down the very bottom and we build the
helicopter back up again. So it's... it's not new but it's almost in the condition of
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being reconditioned that's what it boils down to. And we feel that we can also offer
the county an alternative if not for long term purposes, at least for a short terxn
timeframe in order... or in case the council decides to purchase... if the county
purchases their own aircraft, we think we can provide a short term solution on the
(inaudible) basis for the county which would be more cost effective than what I've
been looking at in numbers... And I did a cost analysis in comparing the different
aircraft and the capabilities of a two to five hundred, use five hundred (500) E-
Model and a Hughs five hundred (500) F-Model and a A Star B(2) which we have
also. I did a little bit of a cost analysis and I was at a disadvantage, I did not know
exactly what the cost of operating the five hundred (500), but I had a pretty good
idea and I know what it cost to operate a B(2), so my data for the B(2) is fairly
accurate and there are some advantages to going with what we're proposed to do.
We are proposing alternative at least to a short term solution to the county if
they're interested in looking at that rather than purchase... lease-purchasing or
buying one immediately if you do not have the budget.
Mr. Asing: Thank you, with that Councilmember
Furfaro.
Mr. Furfaro: Yes. Thank you for being here this morning.
So let me make sure I understand this... this five hundred (500) EU, this five
hundred (500) F or the particular aircraft that's coming up in a money bill next
week for us, you know we cannot earmark funds for lease for multiple years, we can
only do it for a single year. (Thank you Dickie.) So in my understanding that
you're willing to do a short term lease with the County of Kauai to address the
immediate need?
Mr. Myers: We could, yes.
Mr. Furfaro: And this piece of equipment I'm just
wondering... although we've got the question answered regarding the medical kit
being extremely expensive and as you said makes the aircraft a jack of all trades, a
master of nothing...
Mr. Myers: It becomes a very heavy machine once you
put the equipment onboard which reduces your other capabilities of fighting fires
with buckets of water, etc., and doing other rescue missions, your space is
confined...
Mr. Furfaro: I'm good with the answer. Just that it's not
recommended to be that multipurpose task aircraft, okay. But in the lease
proposals the numbers that we do know, am I to assume that the other kit that's
available would be... would be attached to this aircraft is what you refer to as a
rappel kit?
Mr..Myers: Yes this rappel kit that is on the aircraft,
currently on the aircraft now, we used it for rappel missions with U.S. for service
region six (6), we had a contract in Oregon for that doing specifically rappel work,
where people can rappel out of the helicopter. In... under the Federal Regulations
in order to do rappel under we call civilian part one thirty-five (35) air carrier
regulations, we're not permitted to do that. But under public use aircraft, you're
allowed to do anything you want without complying with what's called aviation part
one thirty-five (35) regulations, it's pretty much waived for doing public use. You
can have as an example, a hoist. We don't have a hoist, but if we had a hoist under
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FAA regulations part one thirty-three (33) external load operations which is
required to have a twin engine aircraft installed with a Hawai`i... it has to be able
to fly away with one (1) engine failure, to meet that criteria very, very small
helicopters, there's only one medium helicopter that I'm aware of that meets that
criteria and that's called Bell (4) (12) EP, very high power machine that qualifies for
the FAA requirement. Then you go to public use, you can take any aircraft, put it
on public use and do the missions required. But you would need to also have a
minimum as an example for lease you would need a minimum of ninety (90) days
exclusive activity to qualify for public use definition.
Mr. Furfaro: I appreciate you sharing the rules with us so
that we understand certain requirements to have redundancy and (inaudible)... um
let me ask the bottom line here is for the safety of our officers and those who get
trained for the purpose of search and rescue and recovery, I guess, with this rappel
kit that comes with the aircraft, so I assumed that there's a certification period
where training will apply and is it done by the manufacturer or is it an outside
source?
Mr. Myers: There's outside sources, the U.S. Fore
Service South it has a what we call a OAS or NBC formal authorizations
certifications to meet those requirements, you can go through a formalized
organization sponsored by the Government that says that you are now certified to
do this kind of work. Which we were at one time, we're not current now, we don't
have anybody that's involved...
Mr. Furfaro: You've answered my questions, thank you
Mr. Chair.
Mr. Asing: Thank you, any other questions for Preston?
Councilmember Kawahara.
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you Chair Asing. Thank you for being
here. Just a quick question, we, I think... it sounds like we already do the private
helicopter lease-type type of thing, but we appreciate your offer. There's no way
that you would be able to be a public use, if we use that right?
Mr. Myers: No, if you had me on exclusive lease for
ninety (90) days or more, let's say one (1) year, you've become public use.
Ms. Kawahara: Oh you do.
Mr. Myers: Yes.
Ms. Kawahara: Even though you're not operated...
Mr. Myers: I'll give you an example, I can't do tours
today and you need me for emergency tomorrow, I'm not public use now, I'm
contracting. So it's not allowed.
Ms. Kawahara: Right.
Mr. Myers: But if it's dedicated aircraft exclusively for
the county then it will become public use, minimum ninety (90) days as long as you
want it.
12
. . . •
Ms. Kawahara: Okay. So it's sole dedicated to the
Government use.
Mr. Myers: That's correct.
Ms. Kawahara: So it just sits there...
Mr. Myers: I couldn't use it for my own private use or
anything, I strictly would be the Government aircraft during the term of the lease.
Ms. Kawahara: Okay, thank you.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Councilmember Chang.
Mr. Chang: Thank you Chair. So your aircraft is going
through this restoration if you will, back to square one (1), new?
Mr. Myers: Well not new, it's reconditioned.
Mr. Chang: Zero (0) flight mileage.
Mr. Myers: We have zero time on the engines, zero time
on the gear boxes and things like that, we have overhauls very, very good condition
aircraft.
Mr. Chang: So many of the rescue pilots or the
firefighters are familiar with and perhaps prefer a Hughs five hundred (500)?
Mr. Myers: That's because of the familiarity I think
years that they've been using one or uses a company that uses that particular
aircraft, I don't think the Fire Department is familiar in depth with an A Star B(2),
as it is with a five hundred (500) and there is the question mark... it's training
getting familiar with it. We have much more cabin room than a five hundred (500)
has, as an example.
Mr. Chang: So does the... does the Hughs five hundred
(500) like have different maneuverability or do they get in smaller cracks or
crevasses or is that?
Mr. Myers: Every aircraft has its pros and cons. The pro
of a five hundred (500) is definitely, it's a smaller aircraft, it can get into a tight
spots to do certain things, you can get in and land in tight spots, where other
aircraft may not be able to do that... be that maneuverable. A five hundred (500) is
very, very good at that but it also have its limitation. As an example, it carries so
many of gallons of water to put out a fire, our aircraft carries about twice as much
water than a five hundred (500) does to do the same thing for firefighting so you're
getting greater coverage per gallon, cost less to do a firefighting, as an example.
Mr. Chang: So your... if you're up and ready to go by
next week, you can coordinate something with the Fire Department take them on a
tour, let the rescue guys get on your helicopter and show them what you...
Mr. Myers: We're looking at probably a week and a half,
13
• • . .
two (2) weeks to be able to do that.
Mr. Chang: So maybe you can coordinate with the Chief
and...
Mr. Myers: Yes.
Mr. Chang: Arrange for a excursion. Thank you Preston.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Any other questions
Councilmembers? If not Preston I have the... the helicopter you're making
reference to... why is it here now? I am assuming that you did not use it for public
service here?
Mr. Myers: No.
Mr. Asing: Am I correct?
Mr. Myers: That's correct. We pulled it off the contract
in Oregon about four (4) years ago. In Oregon they wanted us to reduce our price,
and our support being from Hawai`I, in Oregon was too expensive, we could not
afford to reduce the price so they opened up for a new bid. I had a three (3) year
contract with one (1) year options to renew and I did two (2) years with the Forest
Service and then they wanted us to reduce our price, mainly because of the Oregon
operators were pushing for it. And we've made the decision to just pull it back here
in Hawai`i and it's been in our inventory and we have not really been using it except
for maybe to replace for temporary basis one of our other aircraft while we go
through it and do a major maintenance on it, then we would use it and then take it
off and put the other one back on.
Mr. Asing: So you've had it here for how long now on the
island?
Mr. Myers: Four (4) years.
Mr. Asing: Four (4) years on island?
Mr. Myers: I owned it since it was new. It's a 1996
model. (inaudible) we've maintained it since it was new.
Mr. Asing: Okay.
Mr. Myers: We know the aircraft intimately inside and
out, it's not like txying to grab something we don't know out there.
Mr. Asing: And so are you in the process now of
reconditioning the aircraft? Mr. Myers: We're putting it back together as we speak.
Mr. Asing: Okay and...
Mr. Myers: We're assembling it...
14
. . • .
Mr. Asing: And what is the reason you're doing that? I
mean for what purpose I mean did you intend to do some public service with it?
Mr. Myers: I was looking at putting it to use for leasing
and/or for another operator if they wanted to use it.
Mr. Asing: Oh. Okay.
Mr. Myers: Or somebody else.
Mr. Asing: Okay great, thank you. Any other questions
Councilmembers? If not thank you very much, I appreciate it. Is there anyone else
in the audience who wants to speak on this item? Chief.
ROBERT WESTERMAN (FIRE CHIEF): Morning members of the
Council, Robert Westerman, Fire Chief. I just want to thank those two (2)
gentlemen for stating my case. I mean you have thirty (30) years experience with a
pilot Mr. Gardner Brown and we've had conversations with him and he actually
came forward to me through my firefighters when he heard what we were doing and
actually I have a couple of his documents that you've received and that experience
has been very good and very well received and I would like to thank him very much
for that. Same thing with Preston and I just like to hit on a couple of things that
they said that I think are critical in understanding the information that I have
already imported on you. And one of the things that Gardner had said was the
critical path between the safety and the training that we need to establish, words
right out of his mouth, we don't have that. We need to have that critical path
between those two (2) people the pilot and the rescuer. Part of the reason why I'm
here and thank you... Councilmember Chang for bringing up the ultra light incident
because that particular incident had a rescuer on it that that was his first time
hanging outside the aircraft in one of the worst conditions that we could have
possibly been in. And we survived. We survived by the skin of our teeth because we
almost crashed that helicopter, okay? Part of that was the lack of training. We just
simply didn't get the time, we didn't have the equipment to do the training and I
don't think Gardner could have said it any better and I thank him for that.
The economic model, yes we did look if you look at the way to purchase or
lease or to move forward with this service, we looked at the models in Hawai`i and
I'll talk about the mainland model that Preston referenced in his helicopter, in a
little bit. We looked at the economics of Maui which does exactly what Preston is
recommending and exactly what the FAA has told us and exactly what the requirements are that we need to have a public use contract. And we can do that in
ninety (90) days at a time, absolutely. And we can do that with any carrier that can
get one thirty-three (33) certified which is exactly what Preston had just said and
that's the Maui model. And at the end of the year, we own nothing. So we have
those cost and we have to pay that carrier his whole cost for modeling... he has to
buy the helicopter, this case Preston has his own so he has a model that he can fix
up and repair. We have other providers that have used five hundred (500) models
that can fit the same model that could bid the contract, absolutely. And we want to
make sure that everybody that's available to bid can bid should we do this contract
versus buying the helicopter.
The second model to look at is Big Island model. And one of the things that I
want to point out at this time is that every island has two (2) helicopters, not just
one (1) by the way, except we're talking about one (1) helicopter here on Kaua`i and
15
• • . .
there's other reasons for that. The Maui... or the Big Island model, they owned
their own helicopters. Kind of what Gardner had said when Honolulu started they
got given their helicopter and he imported to... they had gone through a range of
helicopters from their first all the way up to old Hughies to ones that were g7ven
them by the Foresr Services, so they bought cheap out of the Forest Service and
they were just not the air frame to work and everybody is sitting in the Hughs
model five hundred (500) D whether it's a(E) or (F) model, I'm not... it's really not
the argument is here today, they established that that's the platform that best fits
Hawai`i. Not that another platform won't work, don't misunderstand me. So they
own their aircraft and one is... in another point that was made you can only define
this operation so much. The medivac helicopter and Preston is absolutely right has
different requirements and different needs to do a medivac. You talk about putting
somebody in a helicopter, in the mainland the Ranger and Bell Ranger like you said
is the platform, it sit long ways in the helicopter, and it has a paramedic in it, it has ,
heart monitors in it, has IV's in it, all those kinds of things in it but that's pretty
much what that platform does. It doesn't do much of anything else. I worked with
them in Arizona for fourteen (14) years, landing on a highway in a middle of
nowhere, landing out in the desert in the middle of nowhere, where it works fine,
put somebody in, it's forty-five (45) minutes flight time to the nearest hospital, so
it's a platform that works. But to do the rescue and everything else that you need to
do, you either have to reconfigure, de-configure the aircraft and you lose the time
which was exactly the critical path model that Gardner had talked about. Again I
thank them so much for stating my case. And then you go to O`ahu and we talked
about O`ahu's model oh and by the way in Maui's model the contract is everything,
the airframe, pilots, maintenance. And you heard the difference in the three (3)
from the two (2) previous...
Mr. Furfaro: Excuse me, Chief.
Mr. Westerman: Yes.
Mr. Furfaro: But the bill we're going to look at next week
is only for the equipment.
Mr. Westerman: Is only for the equipment, yes.
Mr. Furfaro: So I hope that you'll be prepared to give us
all of the other operating conditions.
Mr. Westerman: Yes sir. Yes sir. And then the model in Big
Island they own but they have a contract for their pilots and their maintenance.
And if you go to Honolulu, they own and like Gardner said they own their own pilots
and the fact that they're members of the Department, either Fire Department or
Police Department, they're actually fire officers or police officers, but they have a
force big enough that they can have and to maintain those skills. And they also
happened to be our National Guard pilots so I don't have a National Air Guard
pilots in my Department that can fly for me and so... that's the different economic
models that we'd look at and I had presented that information to you to come up to
the conclusion of what we are asking you for today. We think economically for
Kaua`i the best model is to either outright purchase which is an option or to lease
the airframe over a ten (10) year lease, depreciate it as we go along you know I don't
want to get into what Mr. Rezentes's discussion on how all of that is and the cost
but you see the annual cost. And then to push the operating cost into my budget
annually as we go through to do the operation. Councilmember Bynum had brought
. 16
. • • ~
up again about the Police Department and it's a very valid discussion and it's not
only the Police Department that can use, and one of the things going back to what
Preston said public use, but now public use remember now there's civil use and
public use, we're talking about we need to be in public use timeframe, not in civil
use timeframe. Okay so we're in public use now, we own a helicopter there's still a
limit. I could fly any Councilmember, I can fly any member of the County of Kaua`i
doing an operation, PD can fly and do any operation with that helicopter because we
are the same treasury and that's kind of what the FAA is talking about. I cannot
sell my service to Department of Land and Natural Resources, I could have a
mutual aid agreement with the Department of Land and Natural Resources
whereby I will fly my helicopter on their fires and they will fly their helicopter on
my fires and that's exactly what Gardner was talking about in the mutual aid
agreements. So... but I can't charge them, okay? I can't charge for service, that's
another reason public use was made the way it was because now the Government is
taking over services of a private contractor, and we can't do that. We cannot put a
private contractor out of business. Again Preston was a private contractor
providing service on a contract to the mainland to fight wild land fires, a perfect use
of that airframe is something that we would continue to do because we do, do that
now. We use private contractors to fight fires, haul water and fight fires for us and
everyone that's available to us, we use them as much as we can. Airframe type
again, as I had discussed and Preston was exactly right the bigger the helicopter;
the bigger the footprint, the bigger the footprint, the less you can get close to the
mountain so we're not fight Smokey Mountain, big valleys and ravines, we're
fighting Kalalau tight spaces, dropping people down a hundred feet below the
helicopter getting as close as we can to get them on the ground because of the
steepness. So that's one of the reasons why our Airframe is a little bit better. We
lose in the fact that we can't carry as much water as Preston said his helicopter if I
had a wild land fire I can hire him tomorrow on an emergency contract to dump
water and I violate nothing because he as certified his aircraft to do that. What has
gotten us to this point is what he had discussed about the only way that I can
suspend a rescuer to save the eighty-five (85) people that we saved last year,
underneath that helicopter is public use. I can do anything else with a civilian
helicopter but I can't do that and I can't train because it's not an emergency. So
that's the dilemma that we're in and why we're at were we're at today so again and
Preston has referenced that when he talked about you got to have the two (2)
engines and if you saw the report from Dillon, Dillon said well just do business the
way you are and then get a public use contract for those times, those few times that
you suspend somebody underneath a helicopter. Well Preston's not going to sit
there and say, remember he said I can't fly public use one day and civil use the
next. So he's not going to sit there and have that aircraft sit there on the ground
and not make any money, on the hopes that one day I'm going to call him and he's
going to pay... I'm going to pay him a thousand dollars ($1,000) an hour to go rescue
somebody. He's going to want the economic value of that aircraft the whole time it's
sitting there on the ground, I mean we would all want that. It's like leasing a car,
we can't lease a car and just go get it when we want it, we lease the car for the
whole time.
I really think that's kind of it... like I said they did a pretty good job at
stating my case for and if there's any other questions you have, I'd be happy to
answer them and then Councilmember Furfaro for the next meeting we'll get
together and to gather whatever data information I have not yet provided to you, if
we need to do that, I can do that.
Mr. Furfaro: . If you stay in the room when we call our
17
meeting back to order, you'll hear what my questions are.
Mr. Westerman: Okay, can do. Any other questions?
Mr. Asing: ' Councilmembers any questions?
Councilmember Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Yeah just real quickly I assume the Big
Island has that capability for EMS because of the distances on the Big Island.
Mr. Westerman: Well they have the capability because they
have... I'm sorry I'm... the vog got me the other day. They have two (2) types of
aircraft. Their rescue helicopter is a Hughes model five hundred (500) (f) (d) five
hundred (500). Their medivac helicopter, it is made for medivac. It's got the '
gurneys, it's got all the equipment, it's got all of that, so they don't swap airframes
they have two (2) airframes and because of distance, absolutely.
Mr. Bynum: Because...
Mr. Westerman: That's the reason they do it, because of
distance.
Mr. Bynum: I mean basically we do the EMS transports
in ambulances now.
Mr. Westerman: Right.
Mr. Bynum: And we don't have the same issues that the
Big Island has... in terms of time and distance.
Mr. Westerman: Right. Now if I can... I'm glad you bought
that up... if I can make one more point, yes we would go to Ni`ihau, regardless of the
medical condition, if the need is to get some body to KVMH immediately we would
fly to Ni`ihau put them in the helicopter in our gurney, which we can do and we
would fly them to KVMH which is the closest medical facility. It would be under
some (inaudible) it's not going to have a heart monitor, it's not going to have a
paramedic, it's not going to have a nurse, it's not going to be a medivac but it's going
to be a emergency medical flight from Ni`ihau to Kaua`i to get to the closest medical
center. The only other option is waiting for the coast guard to come from Pearl
Harbor and that would be about three (3), four (4) hours later and it's better we try
to make the one (1) hour rule, if we can.
Mr. Furfaro: Thank you for seeing my clarity in my earlier
question of Ni`ihau.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Any other questions
Councilmembers? If not, thank you Chief. Is there anyone else in the audience
wants to speak on this item?
DOROTHY HAYASHI: Good morning Councilmembers. My name is
Dorothy Hayashi, private citizen. First of all I'd like to thank the previous... from
the Fire Department for the information that I was able to listen to here at the
Council. I answered a lot of questions that I had... that when you read the
newspaper it's just so concise you know it's not expanded so I thank you very much.
18
. . ~ ~
But for... I'm from the Westside and we always wanted to have these helicopter
rescues done from Lihu`e and that was a concern that we always had in Hanapepe
because it took so long from Hanapepe to Lihu`e, they would have to pick up whom
ever, so this solves the problem if you do purchase the helicopter. However, my
concern as private citizen we know that at this time we're in real bad shape
financially, and I can see the wants and how shall I say, everything is like... we're
at this point where we would like to do this but financially it's almost impossible
and I would like to know how many rescues do we do per year, for one thing? How
much does it cost? And do we get reimbursed from the so-called victims because
like even when I get into a car accident right, I have to have insurance, the
insurance reimburse, so I'm wondering about all of these factors which hasn't
been... I mean you folks are the ones I guess have to look into it. But as private
citizen who has to pay taxes and I know that it also came up what, purchasing those
electric cars that you... we're going to... for five (5) cents or something, I heard
about it. Now if we have to get that desperate you know in order to purchase cars
and I'm wondering is it... I'm at this point where I don't know what the answer is in
my mind because you don't want people to die and yet we're in this... and at one
time I remember l don't I believe it was ten (10) years ago when we were up in
Napali, we had gone on a boat to take a cruise with our children, we wanted them to
experience the Napali Coast and at that time, well we could hear somebody yelling
from the trail up in Hanalei and apparently this woman had gone in and she was
pregnant and she started having birth contractions and they were calling in the
helicopter. So to me when I saw that I thought hey you have to take care of
yourself, you know. There's a point where you don't go you know, and you don't do
these things when you know you may be endangering the fetus but anyway that
was my experience at that time. So my feeling is that at sometimes these rescues
are... they should reimburse but the way I'm hearing is that we can't get
reimbursement, is that what I heard? But thank you very much, my three (3)
minutes are up.
Mr. Furfaro: Thank you very much for your testimony.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Any questions? If not thank you
very much, I appreciate it. Is there anyone else in the audience who wants to speak
on this item?
ABBY SANTOS: Hi good morning everybody. I totally
support the...
(state your name)
Ms. Santos: Yes, oh yeah my name is Abby Santos, I'm
from Hanapepe and my family makes Hawaiian Salt down there in Hanapepe and
we've been following... we try to follow whatever the situation with helicopter and
rescues because it has been coming out of Hanapepe a lot. So we are really in
support of any efforts that can be made to bring all the helicopter operations out of
Burns field and into Lihu`e. Our family has always tried to do whatever we can to
protect the salt pans, it's a very delicate area down there so any increase in rescue
; operations from the Burns field, it does affect the salt pans so that's why I'm here
and just felt that I needed to say that. So as you move toward making decision with
this, we hope that you encourage if you decide to fund this, encourage the Fire
Department and the State to give the county a space in Lihu`e for the operations.
There is a space down in Hanapepe, we're trying to find out, our little community
group is trying to find out what's going on with it, it hasn't been that easy. As far as
19
~ ~ . .
we think we know it's... there's nothing going on and air ones... his area, there's
some un-permitted things that's going on down there so we just really hope that as
you question about this that the operations will be in Lihu`e, we think in the long
run it will save the county money because rather than spending gas to drive the
helicopter all the way to Lihu`e to pick up supplies or personnel, it will be right
there, centrally located, so it's really important for our community on the Westside.
,
Mr. Asing: Thank you.
Ms. Santos: That's it. Any questions?
Mr. Asing: Any questions Councilmembers? If not,
Abby thank you very much. Appreciate it. Is there anyone else who would like to
speak on this item? Chief.
Mr. Westerman: Robert Westerman, Fire Chief. I just
thought if you wanted I could respond to some of their questions, if you wanted that
information already.
Mr. Asing: Go ahead. '
Mr. Furfaro: Excuse me Chief. Sir... talking about
location. What's on the agenda is the lease.
Mr. Westerman: Okay.
Mr. Asing: Okay. With that.
Mr. Westerman: That's fine, I don't have to respond to the
questions.
Mr. Asing: That's okay, thank you.
Mr. Furfaro: Next week.
Mr. Westerman: Okay next week, okay.
Mr. Asing: Okay is there anyone else who wants to
speak on this? Ken Taylor.
KEN TAYLOR: Chair, members of the Council, my name is
Ken Taylor. First of all I appreciate the gentleman that spoke in their past history
of these aircrafts that could be used in saving lives but I also have a problem
because we from the public are not privileged to having the documents that you
have in front of you so we can read them and better understand exactly what we're
talking about. The two (2) individuals from the Westside Hanapepe that raised
concerns about the saltpans and its importance is a very important consideration in
moving forward with anything and one of the questions that was asked was, what
are we talking about and how many rescues have taken place in the given year or
with the last three (3) to five (5) years? And is... are we really looking at the
economics of buying versus leasing and really weighing out that activity and it
doesn't sound like that's what's happening but again we don't have the opportunity
to read the documents that you have in front of you so maybe you can help us with
that so we can better understand and talk about the issue but... if we're talking I
20
. ~
think somebody mentioned five (5) rescues this past year I guess it was...
(inaudible)
Mr. Taylor: Huh?
Mr. Bynum: I heard eighty-five (85).
Mr. Taylor: " Eighty-five (85). Well could have been
eighty-five (85) again... and as somebody also said the lady that was fairly long in
her pregnancy was up on a trail and probably shouldn't have been there and
through life a lot of us take chances from time to time and how much... how much
economic involvement should the county get into to take care of our bad decisions
and especially in bad economic times I mean most of the departments in the county
is my understanding are having to cut back on their activities, ten percent (10%),
fifteen percent (15%), twenty percent (20%), whatever it is, and here we have one (1)
department that's asking to spend a lot of money. And so I think these issues need
to be really addressed and hopefully we'll have more information when this comes
back at the next meeting, thank you.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. With that Councilmember
Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Just very briefly, the documents you're
referring to I just received today, I believe that any documents that come here,
become public record. It's exactly what we're doing is looking into the fiscal issues
of buying versus leasing and doing our due diligence because your comments are
correct that this is a difficult time for us to have increased expenditures. The
questions that Mrs. Hayashi asked, I know other Councilmembers are asking the
same questions about reimbursement and we'll get into that and the impact of
where we do the operations, this is exactly the content of the Council doing their
due diligence on these issues. And regarding reimbursement, yeah... I won't go into
that right now because it's not on the agenda.
Mr. Asing: Okay thank you. With that is there anyone
else who wants to speak on this item?
KLJULEI SANTOS: Aloha my name is Kuulei Santos and I'm
from the Westside. And all I'm asking is that if you do fund it, just make it a
condition that they don't put it on the Westside, that they don't put it in Hanapepe
by the saltpans, they need to put it in Lihu`e, that's it.
Mr. Asing: Thank you.
Ms. Santos: Thank you.
Mr. Asing: Is there anyone else who wants to speak on
this item? Mr. Mickens.
GLENN MICKENS:. Thank you Kaipo. For the record Glenn
Mickens. I just want to thank all the gentlemen that... everybody that spoke today.
This dialog has been outstanding I think. From the public side the problems
encountered, the lady talking about the lady on trail and the liability that we the
tax payers should (inaudible) that amount. I'm sure it's going to come down to
21
• M
funding, it's too bad that you don't have one (1) helicopter that can do it all but
obviously you can't. The helicopters here that was pointed out have to get into a
small space, when the two (2) helicopters crashed and the bodies had to be taken
out of this place, you have to have a special helicopter to get in there. So I guess
you can't have it all in one thing, so again your problem obviously is going to be
prioritize on a basis that you know you can go ahead and decide as Ken has pointed
out... as you pointed out how many hours a year are you going to be using these
things and you're going to have to prioritize where your budget is going to come
from. But anyway I really appreciate Chief Westerman's comments, I think he just
does an outstanding job every time he comes up here to point out what the needs
are and what you financially can afford to do. Thank you very much.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Is there anyone else who wants
to speak on this item? If not, what I'd like to do is call the meeting back to order
and before I have the motion to defer, is there any discussion? Councilmember
Chang.
The meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as follows:
Mr. Chang: Thank you Chair. I have one comment.
First of all to respond to Mr. Taylor, I wanted to let you know that the
Councilmembers just got their emails and that was delivered from myself. And I
was a little bit late at distributing but the reason for that as you know in the past
couple days we had inclement weather. So when we have inclement weather a lot of
the tours that are previously booked have to be shifted around and canceled. So
yesterday Gardner Brown was off in the morning and consequently he might have
slipped out because now he's actually flying and getting on a tour, so he notified to
myself as well as Preston that they would be able to make it to the meeting this
morning before they had to do their regular tours. I did talk to the Chief to let him
know that the dialog and conversation was going to happen so the first thing that I
did when I came in this morning was having the staff print off of my email which
Gardner Brown was communicating with me so the first thing I did was give it to
the Councilmembers knowing that this is the first thing on the agenda.
Consequently if anybody needs copies, we're able to run off some extra copies that I
do have so my apologies to that but keep it in mind as tour operators in inclement
weather you never know if you're going to go or not and safety is first, and so
consequently he realized that he was going to be able to testify and I believe right
now he's on the way to doing and conducting a tour so my apologies. Thank you
Chair.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Any further discussion?
Councilmember Furfaro.
Mr. Furfaro: These are questions that I would like to send
over to be prepared to have a fuller discussion next week. As you know I think the
big point that we need to realize here is the efficiency of air rescue to me it's tough
to compare how much to spend now to what our new cost would be without actually
recognizing the measurement of these efficiencies are based on putting a new i
element of safety in the Department for our firefighters and personnel, along with !
the appropriate training. That can't be measured but it needs to be very much on
the top of this radar screen. I would like to see and I will send over these questions,
first of all we know the lease equipment is roughly about two, eighty-five (285) but
as I understand it, through our purchasing policies, we need to put together a bid
spec and I would assume that the bid spec is for short term lease that addresses a
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three (3) year period with renewable every year and you know we need to be very
much aware that no matter who's come to talk to us, we're in the parameters of the
procurement rules. I would like to hear from the County Attorney's Office next
week if based of the fact that no services are currently available to us, that in fact
this qualifies as a emergency procurement for the first year lease. We are not going
to hear the cost of an outright purchase but because that's not an agenda item but
obviously ten (10) years at two point... two hundred and eighty thousand dollars
($280,000) is two point eight million, I would like to know why that option was
eliminated and is it solely based on the emergency need at present? I would also
like to see from the Fire Chief a detailed line item on the proposed additional
budget cost, operation cost and in there I would hope to see a line for lease to have
secure space with the State at the Lihu`e Airport to operate. Obviously from the
standpoint of fuel and getting personnel in the air. The training cost seems to also
be something that should be reflected in the budget because before we can have a
successful multi-year progTam, we need to invest on the appropriate training for our
personnel that would learn to operate off a this rappelling kit that would be part of
this request for a lease purchase, so those are the questions that I'd like to send
over and have better answers when it actually comes up as an agenda item to
approve a lease purchase.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Any further discussion?
Councilmember Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Yeah I think this was a really good
discussion this morning, I agree with Glenn about that and I appreciate the
community members that Preston and Mr. Brown who came and shared their
expertise and knowledge, the concerns expressed by the folks from the Westside, I
also feel good about you know the... that clearly this has been an agenda item for a
while and that Councilmembers by their comments have been working on it,
thoughtful trying to address all of these questions and you know I think all the
comments here were really good. I would add to Mr. Furfaro's list that I would like
to hear from the Police Department about their efforts to collaborate with the Fire
Department what their needs are in terms of air capabilities and how we're going to
address those with this what is a big ticket item for the County of Kaua`i but and
there's been change in circumstance over the last six (6) or eight (8) months that
what... how we've been doing it is probably not a way that we can continue but
those are also the type of questions that we're asking because it is a difficult time to
make commitments for a new large capital expenditures but this has been a great
dialog this morning, thank you.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Another?
Mr. Furfaro: I have one more.
Mr. Asing: Go ahead.
Mr. Furfaro: I have one more item and that item is solely
for the County Attorney and a separate question and that is if they can direct us to
the rules that govern recovery for emergency recovery, specific Federal or State
laws that prohibit us not to deal with other agencies but to deal with those
individuals that find themselves getting in trouble through you know their own
judgment but I think there are some possibilities within the law that do allow us to
collect from the rescues for specific reasons and I think we should have some clarity
on that rule.
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Mr. Asing: Thank you. Any other discussion
Councilmembers? Go ahead Councilmember Kawakami.
DEREK S. K. KAWAKAMI: Just a comment and for me and I think for
the public too to clarify what my frame of thought is and it is a tough time for a
proposal like this to come in front of us but this proposal in my opinion is more
about keeping our firefighters safe than it is to rescuing victims and let me clarify
that, it's more about keeping our firefighters safe because they're going to do
whatever they need to do to get the job done, to go and rescue people if they're in
danger. Whether it be on a helicopter that they're unfamiliar with or the pilot that
their unfamiliar with, they're going to get the job done but you know we depend on
this group of young men and women to keep the people safe and out of harms way
and... so that's the item at hand you know whether we're going to keep them safe.
So it's a tough decision but at the end of the day it's about keeping our firefighters
safe too. I
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Any further discussion
Councilmembers? If not, I'd like to add a few things to your list Councilmember i
Furfaro and I think some of the Councilmembers already asked the question but I
maybe we should get some clarity on that and that is the number of rescues, the
cost, the location, and the circumstances of those rescues. I think those are
important information. I'd also like to have the Chief put together a comparison
between both methods, the proposal as an example by Preston on his proposal as
presented versus the present proposal and I'd like to see the so-called pluses and
minus between both proposals to come up with my decision making process. I also
like to touch a little bit upon the area that was expressed by one of the speakers
earlier and that is... for me what is the cost of a life? And it's always has been in
the twenty-eight (28) years I've been here, that was always, always an issue.
What's one life? So we save somebody, is that reasonable? And it's not easy, it's a
tough one. Very tough one. We had many, many discussions on this floor before
many times about should we charge people and that also is not crystal clear. It is
not an easy decision to make. We've had numerous discussions going back and
forth, should we be charging them, what is the criteria for charging people? You
know and it's not easy but we'll do whatever we need to do and our analysis and
come up with a decision making so the reason for the deferral is to give everybody
time to get information, for the Chief to provide additional information to help us.
So with that, Councilmember Furfaro.
Mr. Furfaro: Mr. Chair, just on a follow up... I want to
make note that I think the second part of your... the last part of your question was
very clear to me but perhaps that should be in the question to the County Attorney
on that list...
Mr. Asing: Okay.
Mr. Furfaro: As you know I'm first trying to find out if it's
you know if we don't even need to pursue it if it's not legally possible. But it should
be part of that question to the County Attorney.
Mr. Asing: Yes. Any further discussion? If not, can I
have a motion to defer?
Mr. Furfaro: Move to defer.
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Mr. Chang: Seconded.
Mr. Asing: All those in favor say "aye."
Committee Members: Aye.
Mr. Asing: Motion carried.
Upon motion duly made by Councilmember Furfaro, and seconded by
Councilmember Chang, and unanimously carried, C 2010-10 was deferred.
Mr. Asing: Next item please.
B&F 2010-1 Communication (01/21/2010) from Tim Bynum, Councilmember,
requesting the Administration's presence to provide a
comprehensive overview of the fiscal condition of the County of
Kaua`i for the upcoming Fiscal Year 2010-2011.
[This item was deferred.]
Mr. Asing: Thank you. What I'd like to do is... it is my
intention talking to both the Finance Director and the Chair of the Budget and
Finance Committee that we refer this to the Budget process. All of the information
that is being asked for is excellent, good questions and these are the kinds of
questions that is answered and pursued during the budget process, so I'd like to
have this item referred to the budget process when the budget comes over, but
before we do that, let's have some discussion. With that, Councilmember Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: I concur that we should defer this certainly
at this time because our Budget and Finance Committee Chair is not present here
today and the Administration has sent us communication saying that it will take
them sometime to respond to all of the questions that were sent, on the other hand
this dialog is occurring throughout the state right now. Our Mayor and some
Councilmembers have been over to the State Legislature, the Legislature publicly
floating proposals or ideas that will impact the county significantly and I would like
to have this discussion and I know it would be fairly broad ranging now but too for
the public to have an awareness that we're facing some specifics about decreasing
county revenue, about the efforts that the county has taken to reduce our cost and
how that impact our workforce you know and my discussion with Mr. Rezentes...
you know there are some of those questions that he can address now and others he
would like to defer until closer to the budget process so I strongly suggest we defer
this for two (2) weeks and that will give an opportunity to at least have the items
that are currently in public dialog at the state level and amongst ourselves, I'd like
to have some of that discussion here with the Finance Director you know as we
prepare for this budget process so I would prefer that we defer this for two (2)
weeks.
Mr. Asing: Any further discussion?. Councilmember
Furfaro.
Mr. Furfaro: Yes, I do agree that Mr. Bynum's questions
are very pertinent to our upcoming budget and I'm looking at our calendar, we will
probably see the budget process in front of us March 10, we probably and we
wouldn't hear from anybody in the Administration again for a whole week, they
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wouldn't have an opportunity to resume answering these particular questions, I
would prefer that we... we defer specifically to February 17, that's not the two (2)
weeks but it goes back to Mr. Kaneshiro's committee on the seventeenth (17th), and
you know I would rather hear then from the Administration and the direction that
Mr. Kaneshiro would want to defer, so that puts it off a month.
Mr. Asing: Okay.
Mr. Furfaro: With the deferral specifically to February
17+h and it gives the Administration the appropriate time to...
Ms. Kawahara: I think it's the tenth (10th).
Mr. Furfaro: I guess... (inaudible) budget comes to us,
thank you... Monday the fifteenth (15th), maybe we should defer this to March tenth
( lOth), they can have the answers for us before they submit the budget.
Mr. Asing: Okay. Any further discussion
Councilmembers? Go ahead.
Ms. Kawahara: You know...
Mr. Asing: Councilmember Bynum. I,
i
Mr. Bynum: Um you know... I think this dialog is
occurring now and so I have two (2) questions one is why we couldn't begin this !
discussion in a public forum and get the preliminary discussion going and but I 'certainly would prefer that it occur at a Committee meeting because I'm not clear '
that our budget deliberations will be televised and available to the public this year.
I intend to send a memo as I have for the last two (2) years requesting that our
budget meetings be televised and be part of our Hoike thing. You know my
preference would be to begin this discussion in two (2) weeks but if it's the judgment
of my colleagues to move it to the tenth (10th), I would defer to that.
Mr. Furfaro: May I give some judgment?
Mr. Asing: Go ahead. Mr. Furfaro: On my rationale here?
Mr. Asing: Go ahead.
Mr. Furfaro: Again all very good questions Mr. Bynum
but we won't see a certified tax report until May first (18t), let me double check.
Mr. Asing: Yes.
Mr. Furfaro: Is that correct?
Mr. Asing: The answer is yes.
Mr. Furfaro: Yes.
Mr. Asing: No certification until May first (lgt).
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Mr. Furfaro: Right so you know if we're now talking in the
tenth (lOth) of February, we also still have the leg7slature going until April twenty-
ninth (29)?
Mr. Asing: Tventy-ninth (29th).
Mr. Furfaro: 7~venty-ninth (29th) okay. We also don't
have any serious decision makers here this week because the fact of the matter,
they're on the mainland but we will have an answer there to another very
important part to our bond question because you know one of the strategies could be
to refinance some of the projects that we put reserve funds in place to be able to use
for other operating issues, so I would say March tenth (10+h) Committee Meeting if
we can defer to that. I just wanted to give you some of my rationale.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Any further... Go ahead.
Mr. Bynum: I'll just take one more shot at this and then
we'll do whatever we do. You know this is... as I said our Mayor, Councilmembers,
the Honolulu paper, the local paper is reporting on these fiscal issues as we
approach this. The President of the United States, I think was discussing this
while we've been in this meeting in his state of the union address. I think we need
to have... start having this broad dialog about the fiscal challenges that the county
has and I would you know if we don't have an agenda item, we can't have that
discussion in public because of Sunshine Law, we can't have that discussion
amongst ourselves as a body, and I agree with Mr. Furfaro that there are many
moving parts, there are things that we don't have issues with now but we know
assessments are down, we know that the county property tax revenues will be
down, we know that the state is potentially talking about making moves and so you
know what we're saying is we can't have any public discussion about this for six (6)
weeks and that's a long time. So again I'll clearly defer to the judgment of my
colleagues but the Administration's letter today asked for a deferral, it didn't ask for
a date specific. It indicated that there were areas that they could speak to right
now and areas that they would need more data and more time to address fully and
so I just think that this is an important and critical issue that we shouldn't like
wait until the last minute to begin the dialog so that's why I asked for this to be on
the agenda and I think it's a very multi facetted issue and there... we need to have
an agenda item so we are able to have this sort of discussion.
Mr. Asing: Any further discussion? Councilmember
Kawahara.
Ms. Kawahara: Thank you Chair Asing. I would prefer to
have the information sooner rather than later, any information that they do have
now which I believe that they communicated to us that they can answer some of
these questions right now. There's ongoing discussion right now between... at the
state level and at the county level about strategies and having the information
sooner rather than right before the budget is something I would prefer so my vote
would be for doing it for two (2) weeks and getting the answers to whatever they can
gives us now versus late right before we get the budget because I do believe there's
a public discussion that needs to take place. It's important because of the situation
we're going to find ourselves in when we do the budget instead of just dropping it
right before on people, we should have an ongoing discussion, thank you.
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Mr. Asing: Thank you. With that Councilmember
Furfaro.
Mr. Furfaro: Yes. I may not have the votes to go to March
tenth (lOth) but let me just give you kind of put on my business cap for a minute
and... it is very important that the information we do get is... is close to actual as
we can have. You know we won't get a certified property tax role until May one
(1)...
Mr. Asing: May first (lst).
Mr. Furfaro: Asking for March tenth ( lOth) to get a
presentation in Mr. Kaneshiro's Committee when he's back. Secondly there are
some... there is some information and individually I'll be glad to help if I can from
the last audit and the questions that I directed to the treasury department about
our cash flow position. You know the good news and the bad news is a positive cash
flow position is held because we have some reserves but until we know what the
bond is, we don't know how much those reserves are going to shrink. Secondly
there's items like you know our overall payroll is ninety-seven million dollars made
up of thirty million that's in payroll benefits in payroll, sixty million dollar payroll,
thirty-five million dollar benefits, soniething to that effect but we made some
decisions over the year that I'm not sure that everybody's clear on, to better control
our payroll benefits, if you re-call two (2) years ago, we moved the management of
those benefits into the individual departments, we used to have them all at Finance.
So the Fire Chief comes up here, he needs to explain how is he controlling his
benefits. We also by going to the audit, we can see that our benefit package now
runs about forty-eight point seven percent (48.7%), of our total wages and benefits.
But the clarity isn't as simple before by going to Finance, now you need to abstract
that from each operating department, who we've now told needs to take
responsibility for those cost. Those cost have risen from forty-eight point seven
percent (48.7°l0), partially because we have chose to fund which is a good decision I
think you pointed out last time Mr. Bynum, we chose to fund our potential payroll
liability in a way of retirement funds and so forth, going forward, rather than just
accruing some amounts. So again I'm going to ask for March tenth ( lOth) to come
back in the Finance Committee so we have very clear and good information.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Councilmember Bynum.
Mr. Bynum: Thank you. And see we... because we have
an agenda item, we started the discussion. Mr. Furfaro is talking about efforts that
the county has made to be prudent fiscally, and other issues, I think we should
engage in that discussion with the Administration as well. Because this is a very
complex financial picture compared to previous years and the way it impacts the
county, you know the Administration has indicated that they're ready to respond to
some of these questions now, I don't know why we would wait six (6) weeks to do it.
You know... I won't go into the kinds of details of the kind of the things I want to
speak about or address because we don't have the Administration here and we don't
have the Finance Chair, and he indicated that he would prefer to wait until he was
present and I want to honor that but the request from the Administration isn't to
put this off for six (6) or seven (7) weeks, so. '
Mr. Asing: Thank you with... i
Mr. Furfaro: So I'd like to make a motion to defer this
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item to March tenth (10th).
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Can I have a second?
Mr. Kawakami: Seconded.
Mr. Asing: There has been a motion, there is a seconded
to move it to March tenth (10th) any discussion? Before we vote on I will be
supporting that motion to March tenth (10th), you know I will give you an example
and say this, at this time last year Governor Lingle made the statement that the
State was seven hundred and fifty million dollars ($750,000,000) in the hole, today
that figure is no longer good, it is one point five (1.5) billion dollars that's where the
state is today. So it is to me premature at this time to make any kind of judgment
and statements and trying to put pieces together until we're ready for the budget.
The Administration, I have talked to the Finance Director and the Chair of the
Budget and Finance so I will be supporting this, so with that all those in favor say
"aye."
Committee Members: Aye.
Mr. Asing: Aye, motion carried. Thank you.
Upon motion duly made by Councilmember Furfaro, and seconded by
Councilmember Kawakami, and carried vote of 4-2-1 (Councilmember Bynum
and Committee Chair voting no) (Councilmember Kaneshiro excused) B&F
2010-1 was deferred.
Mr. Asing: There being no other items on the agenda,
the Committee is adjourned.
Mr. Furfaro: Shouldn't we be taking a caption break
before we go unto another Committee?
Ms. Kawahara: Oh? Was there testimony on this?
Mr. Furfaro: I don't know the Chair of this Committee is
Mr. Asing. You need to address that...
Ms. Kawahara: Mr. Chair Asing was there testimony from
the public, did we ask? I can't remember.
Mr. Asing: Oh, I'm sorry my apologies let me call it back
to order and can I have public testimony.
ROLF BIEBER: Thank you Chair. Rolf Bieber for the record.
Mr. Bynum made mention to whether the budget would be televised this year and
I'll just be brief, I hope that something will be coming up on the agenda so that
whatever it takes for the Council to afford the public an opportunity look at budget.
I know I was here last year for all of it, none of it was televised and I don't think it
has been televised in the past but I would request if you could put something on the
agenda and whatever it takes for this body to share this with the public through
Hoike or however you want to do it would be recommended, thank you.
Mr. Asing: Thank you.
29
~ .
Mr. Furfaro: Yes Mr. Bieber.
Mr. Bieber: Yes.
Mr. Asing: Go ahead.
Mr. Furfaro: You're correct, the workshops leading up to
the budget were not televised but the final decision making process was, I just
wanted to clarify that.
Mr. Bieber: Thank you. But it's...
Mr. Furfaro: I just wanted to clarify that.
Mr. Bieber: The meat and potatoes was not televised and
I would hopefully we can change that.
Mr. Furfaro: Well as you referred to the meat and
potatoes and I talk about the workshops, there's some of us that do understand the
importance of changing that process going forward but I wanted to correct your
statement that none of it was broadcast because we did do the final piece and we'll
continue to look into Mr. Bynum's request about the meat and potatoes.
Mr. Bieber: Thank you.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Is there anyone else? Go ahead.
Ms. Kawahara: Could I?
Mr. Mickens: Thank you Kaipo. For the record Glenn
Mickens. I do want to second what Rolf has said, I think it's extremely important
that the public is privy to this and the only way it happens to be is when it's t.v'd so
the mass of the audience can see it. One other one point I would like to bring up, it
seems to be a rule that when the public comes before these budget hearings, you
have to testify before the budget hearings even start on whatever happens to be and
I know it goes on for about a week or more. This process I think does have to be
changed. You can sit here and maybe not be sure what you're saying but once it's
brought up in the budget or whatever the procedure happens to be, you want to
testify about that but if you have to testify prior and that's the only chance you get,
then I think it stops the public from being able to participate in the budget process.
So I'm only asking consideration be given that instead of saying you have to testify
at the very beginning before the process begins, let the public be involved with the
process as a different various budgets whether it's Parks and Rec., or whatever
happens to be for the various projects that comes up be able to testify, so I'm just
asking that as your consideration, thank you, Kaipo.
Mr. Asing: Thank you.
Ms. Kawahara: (inaudible)
Mr. Asing: Hang on Glenn.
Mr. Furfaro: Glenn.
30
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Ms. Kawahara: Glenn.
Mr. Asing: Go ahead Mr. Bynum.
Mr. Mickens: Yes Lani.
Mr. Bynum: I don't like to miss an opportunity when I
agree with you Glenn so I just wanted to take this opportunity.to say that I'm very
proud of our government and our county overall, when I sit through those budget
processes which are intensive where every department comes up here talks about
their goals and objectives, their challenges is subject to questioning to all
Councilmembers, you know we find issues where we don't always look that great
but we see a lot of competence and expertise from our county employees, we get a
sense that they're working daily for the benefit of the people who live here on Kaua`i
and I think that they're extremely high valuable and probably the most important
thing we do all year is to determine how the... we are spending the tax payers
money on their behalf and so I just wanted to take this opportunity to agree and to
say I'm sad that the public hasn't been more aware of that process because I come
out of that process feeling good about the County of Kaua`i overall so thank you very
much.
Mr. Mickens: Well I appreciate that Tim. You see where
I'm coming from just the matter that the public isn't entitled to participate in
individual budgets and I thought you know that's basically what the whole process
is about. Whether we're for, against, it doesn't make any difference but at least we
, can participate, thank you Tim.
Mr. Asing: Thank you. Is there anyone else? If not I'd
like to call the meeting back to order and we are now adjourned, thank you.
There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 10:49 a.m.
Respectfully submitted,
o~G~/I~f~v~cYl~?~ a ~
Darrellyne M. Simao
Council Services Assistant I
APPROVED at the Committee Meeting held on March 10, 2010:
DARYL W. KkNESA~RO
Chair, Budget & Fi ce Committee
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