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HomeMy WebLinkAbout 05/25/2011 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE Committee MeetingMINUTES COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE May 25, 2011 A meeting of the Committee of the Whole of the Council of the County of Kauai, State of Hawaii, was called to order by Councilmember Jay Furfaro, Chair, at the Council Chambers, 3371-A Wilcox Road, Lihu'e, Kauai, on Wednesday, May 25, 2011, at 11:07 .m., after which the following members answered the call of the roll: Honorable Tim Bynum Honorable Dickie Chang Honorable KipuKai Kuali'i Honorable Nadine K. Nakamura Honorable Mel Rapozo Honorable JoAnn A. Yukimura Honorable Jay Furfaro, Chair The Committee proceeded on its agenda items as shown in the following Committee Report which is incorporated herein by reference, and as follows: Chair Furfaro: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Bynum. I'm going to call the Committee of the Whole together for this particular item. I'm going to ask that we read resolution 2011-51. Members, again, I am only going to take testimony on this item, then I'm going to recess it and we'll go into the rules committee as earlier suggested. So is there anyone in the audience that would like to come up and speak on resolution 2011-51? Resolution No. 2011-51 RESOLUTION SUPPORTING THE TRAPPING, NEUTERING AND RETURN METHOD OF CONTROLLING KAUAI'S HOMELESS AND FERAL CAT POPULATION (This item was amended to Draft 1 then Deferred.) There being no objections, the rules were suspended. LAURA WILEY: Aloha, Council. For the record, I'm Laura Wiley, I'm the President of the Kauai Humane Society and this is Orianna Skomoroch, our Executive Director. Thank you for accommodating us. There is a commitment this afternoon that we absolutely cannot change. We did send our testimony on May 19. Chair Furfaro had asked us some questions and so we got those questions back to you guys. With regards to TNR, we did recommend that trap, neuter, and return also include management of the colony, which is in compliance with our position statements. And we feel that it is one piece of the puzzle to addressing pet overpopulation, and forgive me Jay, I don't know if you want to ask us questions, or... Chair Furfaro: If you give us testimony and then we'll ask you questions. If you want to...both of you want to give commentary now, go right ahead and then we'll ask you questions and suspend the meeting. Ms. Wiley: Thank you, I appreciate that. Thanks for holding my hand. As I said, we do feel that trap, neuter, and return needs to include the "m," which stands for "management." Managing a colony includes getting permission from the property owner to have the colony. It includes not...you know, making sure that the colony isn't a nuance nuisance and that it's clean and free of rubbish, removing all kittens, and locating colonies away from protected animals, and just making sure that the colony doesn't grow. The Humane Society's position with regards to feral cat colonies is that hopefully the colony will eventually become extinct, in other words, not grow. And I think that is all I have to say for now. Did you want to add anything? ORIANNA SKOMOROCH: Firstly, thank you very much for making changes. We really appreciate it. I think Laura has said it all and our testimony is a response to the Council. Mr. Chang: Could you introduce yourself just for the record. Mr. Skomoroch: My name is Orianna Skomoroch, and I'm the Executive Director Interim for the Kauai Humane Society. Chair Furfaro: Did you have a question for Ori? Mr. Chang: Actually, I am just going to read this public testimony, because I just circulated this to the Councilmembers. I had a phone call from one of our residents and she emailed me this just minutes ago. So if I can, Mr. Chair, I'm just going to read and I will give you folks a copy of these questions. But there were five questions of concern and some of the points concerning the TNR and perhaps TNRM policy on Kauai was that the policy doesn't protect cats from starvation, disease, and violence. It does not protect vulnerable children and animals from feline diseases, contaminating the ocean waters. It should include individual medical evaluation for each trapped cat. Sick cats should be euthanized. Can we manage TNR logistically? Do we have the vets available at the Humane Society for existing animal care, plus a TNR policy population? A TNR policy alone doesn't prevent environmental damage on the island, i.e., killing of the bird population. So I will give you folks these questions. As I mentioned, we just got this several minutes ago. Ms Wiley: Okay, thank you very much. I need to back up a little bit and I apologize. We have friends that have incorporated as anon-profit, called Kauai ferals, and a lot of them are here, and their passion is to help the feral cats on Kauai. It was my understanding that they approached Councilman Rapozo with this resolution. And so I understand... the Humane Society, of course, is our mission to address pet overpopulation, and so I understand that this is day-to-day for us. However, this isn't the resolution that we submitted. Correct? Chair Furfaro: Yes, that's correct. Ms. Wiley: So if you are talking about Humane Society veterinarian time, we physically, the staff at the Kauai Humane Society, we do not 2 manage the feral cat colonies. We help the colony providers in any way that we can. And so I'm sorry I don't remember each bullet point on that list. Chair Furfaro: Can we give you a copy of that? There you go. And if you would like some additional time to give us written... Ms. Wiley: No, we can... No, we're okay. Thank you for bearing with us. We blew in with the wind. TNR policy does not protect cats from starvation, disease, and violence. I would say overall that is true and that is why we feel that management is important. Somebody needs to be taking responsibility for a cat colony and make sure that the cats get proper veterinary care and that they are microchipped. The violence, I don't know that there's anything that we can do about that. TNR doesn't protect vulnerable children and adult from feline diseases contaminating ocean waters, tourists are included here, and I apologize, I don't have the background to address that right now. I know that there are some marine biologists talking about the possibility of toxoplasmosis going into the water and hurting the Hawaiian monk seals, and I apologize, that's not my area of expertise. TNR should include medical evaluation for each trapped cat. Sick cats should be euthanized. Yes, I would agree... Humane Society would agree with that. We feel that every cat deserves a home and that is the optimum situation, but we also realize people are...that there are a lot of feral cats and people are compelled to take care of them. But we do feel it's more humane to euthanize a sick or injured animal. Can we manage TNR logistically? Do we have vets available at Humane for existing animal care? Do we have vets .available at the Humane Society? We have one staff veterinarian, who happens to be a superstar; she's been with us since Hanapepe days. Again, we provide support for the cat colony caregivers; we don't manage them ourselves. A TNR policy alone does not prevent environmental damage on the island, i.e., killing of the bird population. Again, I'm not an environmental expert, but we do believe that any feral cat colonies should be away from areas where protected animals are. Obviously, you wouldn't want feral cat colonies up in Kilauea and some of these other places where shearwaters and other endangered birds are. That's my...off the top of my head not very good response. And I would be happy to do more and get more to you later. Chair Furfaro: Dickie, I'm going to give the floor to Mr. Rapozo. Mr. Chang: That is fine. I just wanted to say thank you. Again, I had a call this morning. We took a short break; I went and checked, we got an email, so I wanted to pass that on to you. I thought we would take you folks a little later, so it was fast that thing that happened right now. So Mr. Rapozo, go ahead. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. And yes, you are correct. Actually, I had a meeting with Kauai feral people because of some rumors that were going around that I was going to introduce a bill that would allow or provide for the killing of cats. So we sat down here... I know, that simply is not true. In fact, I had...I don't know where that rumor started, but after meeting with the Kauai feral people and learning about the TNR, I felt that it was a viable option for Kauai's problem. They educated me and I did my independent research and found that it's a very good program that's utilized throughout the country. I just got back from Washington State, and Washington has really embraced TNR in many jurisdictions. So I just wanted to clarify this was not drafted by the Humane Society. This is not a resolution directing any agency to do TNR. It's simply a 3 policy statement from the Council saying that in fact TNR is a viable option and it's part of a bigger plan. I guess in response to this email testimony that this gentleman wrote...I'm sorry, it's a woman. If you put the word "absent" in front of TNR, absent a TNR policy will that protect cats from starvation, disease, and violence? No. Absolute a TNR policy, does that protect vulnerable children and adults from feline diseases? No. My point is, TNR is part of a big process, and it does not hurt at all. In fact, it helps. I appreciate your comments. I appreciate your management, and we'll see how the consensus of this body is. I don't know where it's going to go, but I have no problem amending the resolution to have that "m" included, and management is not a problem. But I guess the point I wanted to make is this feral population is not going to get better. It's going to get worse because of our residents continuing to drop off and our residents continuing to...these cats continuing to have kittens. So my question is as the resolution stands and with "m" added, the Humane Society would be in support of the passage of this? Ms. Wiley: Yes and thank you for articulating what I could not. Mr. Rapozo: No, no, no. Thank you. Chair Furfaro: I remind you folks to focus your questions on Q&A format. We're going to come back to this after lunch. Ms. Yukimura: So my question for you, thank you for being here and all the great work you do, but what do you mean by management, who is going to do it, who is going to pay for it. Ms. Wiley: Management means that somebody takes responsibility for the colony. So... forgive me Ori, I'm not really sure. I think at one point, amongst the thousands of papers I've seen come across my desk, I had a draft outline of somebody agreeing to be a manager of a cat colony. It was sort of like a contract, and this is what we'll do. So it's not the Humane Society that's managing the cat colonies; it's individuals who feel strongly enough about it to do so. Ms. Yukimura: Okay, so what is "management"? Ms. Wiley: "Management" is making sure certain conditions have been met, such as making sure the property owner has given consent, making sure that all the animals are healthy and spayed and neutered and identified, removing new members from the colony, making sure the colony doesn't grow, and just making sure the colony doesn't. become a nuisance. So in other words, yes, there is and I like how Councilmember Rapozo worded it "absent this" is it going to get worse? Yes. So yes, you can spay and neuter a cat and throw it back out there, but unless that is managed in some way, I don't think it's really that viable. Ms. Yukimura: So spay, neuter, inoculate, and if you say remove new members, where do they remove new members to? Ms. Skomoroch: With some of the Kauai feral people, they have brought in the sickly cats, and the Kauai Humane Society has taken care of those cats. In addition, they have brought in the cats to make sure that we do spay and neuter them before we give them back to Kauai feral or to the other individuals 4 who are dealing with the colonies. They are really trying to maintain and work closely in managing the colony, not allowing kittens, or if an abandoned cat is out there, for that cat not to become part of the colony and bringing it in to the Kauai Humane Society. Ms. Yukimura: Okay, so I mean I'm just trying to understand what "management" is, because without management you can actually, if you are feeding cats that are not neutered... I'm talking about without management or without really good management, ahigh-quality management, you could make it worse. Ms. Wiley: Absolutely. Ms. Yukimura: So I mean we can say trap, neuter, return, management, but if the "management" part fails, then you don't get the results and you could increase the population. So you know, this quality control becomes a very important thing and that is why the question is who does that, and who has the money to inoculate and take care of all of those cats? If they do, then they should keep it on their property as owning those cats. So then when you don't do that, and you put them on public property, then there are issues. So that is what I'm trying to understand-how this works and whether it works. So the question is do you have evidence that trap, neuter, return, and management actually reduces or diminishes the colonies eventually to no cats or to the level of cats that you may want? Say, as was mentioned that Princeville Shopping Center found that cats are useful in keeping the rat population down, so four or five cats to keep the rats down. So you have this carrying capacity that is... someone is accountable for, right? They are accountable for the cats and taking care of them, and they are accountable for making sure that the policy doesn't go awry and increase more cats than you actually want. So is there evidence that it actually works to reduce? Are you tracking it to show that...or is anybody tracking it to show that the colonies are reduced to the level that is desirable by the property owner? Ms. Wiley: I'm sure that there is lots of evidence out there. I'm going to be honest, I didn't do any kind of research to come and prepare that kind of presentation. I know it's accepted on the mainland and in Hawaii as just a part of addressing the pet overpopulation. Yes, what you said about Princeville Shopping Center is a great example. A lot of our timeshares and hotels will have a mascot cat or two. The visitors come and feel like they have their pet that they can see every year and it help detract other cats from coming in and helps with rodents and things like that, but I don't have any kind of statistical presentation or anything like that prepared and I apologize. Ms. Yukimura: No apologies necessary, but the question still remains and there is data outside that says it doesn't reduce it. Ms. Wiley: Of course, you can find data on either side of any issue, whether you should drink milk or not. I mean it goes on and on. Ms. Yukimura: What do we make our decisions...what do we base our decisions on then, if we don't base it on something that we can all measure together? Ms. Wiley: I think you are raising a good question. 5 Ms. Yukimura: So there are places where colonies have grown? I mean like 3 or 4 cats are not a colony? A thousand cats are a colony? Ms. Wiley: No, I would say 3 or 4 cats is a colony. Ms. Yukimura: Okay. But a thousand cats at a park or someplace, or 60 cats at a park or someplace, are not...raise issues of public health and... Ms. Wiley: Absolutely. Ms. Yukimura: Yes. So then if there is a desired level, what is the evidence that you can keep things at a desired level? Ms. Wiley: Right. I guess, for example, the leashed dogs along the coastal path started with a trial period. I don't know where we're at in the genesis of the evolution of our island and feral cat explosions and now becoming problems in the public, but all of that would definitely have to be worked out. That is why we're saying management is crucial to this. And, again, our position is that every cat should have a lap and loving home, and although we support Kauai ferals, that is still our position that every cat should have a home. I wouldn't want to live as a feral cat. Ms. Yukimura: Okay. So then... Ms. Skomoroch: Excuse me, if I can just jump in for a minute? Ms. Yukimura: Sure. Ms. Skomoroch: It's been a very short time that I have been with the Kauai Humane Society, but the feral cat issue was probably my very first introduction. We have had several calls, and people requesting help, especially for those who...one individual or two individuals are trying to deal with a lot of cats in specific areas. We did meet with the individuals. The Kauai Humane Society is using the Hawaii state statute in regards to hoarding. We are talking with individuals in regarding to you cannot have more than 15 pets. These feral cats, it helps the individual to look at the fact that can I afford to take care of these 15 cats versus the 20 cats behind, and I want to talk about my own district, the Lawa`i area where there's a whole bunch of them by the post office, and an individual was there taking care of that. Literally helping that individual to bring in and take in those cats that needed to be neutered, we did that. We assisted her to get it down to a manageable level. For us, we're dealing with manageable as 15, because that is what the state law says. Then also the sickly kittens and cats that were there, we did, based on the individual selecting which cats and helping us get those cats, we did humanely euthanize them, and now there is a manageable group. But that manageable group is by the individual who cares about those cats versus us dictating, you know, and working with the individual. It is now a manageable size for that individual to care for, to feed, and if any of those cats are sick and the person can't afford to take them to another vet, that is what the Humane Society is there, and they bring that cat in. So we're working with individuals besides the larger groups. Ms. Yukimura: But those are on private property that where the owner has consented? 6 Ms. Skomoroch: No. The Lawa`i one was the post office...public area. Ms. Yukimura: Okay, so that is part of the issue. And apparently based on the hoarding law you said there is a state statute that says it's against the law to have more than 15 cats? Ms. Skomoroch: Yes... animals, pets. Ms. Yukimura: Fifteen animals totally on anyone's property? Ms. Skomoroch: Yes. Ms. Yukimura: And so then colonies of 20 or more cats would be illegal, if it was a managed colony? Ms. Skomoroch: It's a hoarding law. If they're hoarding, if you're going to describe it as hoarding versus managing a colony. Ms. Yukimura: Okay, so that's not clear then. Ms. Skomoroch: No. Ms. Wiley: The other thing is, you know, our friends at Kauai feral I'm sure are going to come up and tell you a lot of success stores. They've really done a lot of great work on the eastside in particular, and so maybe we jumped up here first, just because we had that afternoon commitment that we cannot get out of, and maybe we're out of order. Maybe they should have come up first to...because I'm sure they know a lot more about their successes than we do. And I apologize that we're not able to give you anything today, but we're obviously willing to help and get you some more information. Chair Furfaro: No need to apologize. You're absolutely right. The convenience was given to you, and I want to remind members, the item will be taken up after lunch at 1:30. And Council Vice Chair Yukimura, would you yield the floor to Councilmember Kuali`i? Ms. Yukimura: Yes. I just want to put out the question and then we can come back to it? Chair Furfaro: Fine. We'll come back to it after 1:30 if it's a legal question. Ms. Yukimura: Oh no, it's not a legal question. Chair Furfaro: Okay, I guess I thought we were going to talk about the hoarding bill. Ms. Yukimura: If you say that TNR is TNRM or whatever it is is part of a larger picture, what is that larger picture is what I want to know, because that means that there is an overall plan that's going to reduce the number of feral cats on this island. But I will let that hang, and go to Councilmember Kuali`i. 7 Chair Furfaro: Councilmember, you have the floor. Mr. Kuali`i: Aloha and mahalo. So I don't mean to oversimplify it, but this resolution to me represents one about education primarily. So the original resolution was educating the public about trap, neuter, and return. Now the Humane Society is saying wait a minute, don't forget that management is also important. So in your letter to us, you are saying if you are doing this education, you should also include education of management. It kind of comes to us as, okay now, who is managing that? And now what I am hearing is the volunteers. But primarily, isn't it just that the resolution should say that management is an important part of it and we want to put the education out there as well, so that the volunteers who do step forward know what that is, managing? Yet, when we say stuff like remove kittens and no drop-offs to expand the colony then it kind of sounds like policing, and those people probably who are volunteering may not be there all the time. So I obviously agree that education piece is important and that is what this resolution is about, and that the Humane Society is not stepping forward and saying we want to get involved in that management, because you don't do it. You provide the actual inoculation of the cats when they bring them in to be neutered. I heard Councilwoman Yukimura ask something about the funding for that inoculation. Is that just provided by the Humane Society to the community, and if so, like how many are you able to do a year? Ms. Wiley: No, there are fees. Mr. Kuali`i: There are fees? Ms. Wiley: Yes. For vaccinating a cat, yes, and please don't ask me how much they are, they are very minimal. Mr. Kuali`i: So really then, the people who are volunteering and taking care of these cats, when they trap a cat and then bring it in to you, they actually have to come with money to pay for that cat to be neutered? Ms. Wiley: No. I apologize. Vaccinating a cat, we're separating out from the spay/neuter surgery. Mr. Kuali`i: I don't know the difference, so sorry. Ms. Wiley: Spay/neuter, we're fortunate to get a $60,000 grant from the Kauai county every year for spay/neuter. A condition of that grant is that we not charge for that and we don't. Of course, we always accept donations if they feel like dropping 5 or 10 bucks on the counter, but there is no charge to spay and neuter a cat at the Kauai Humane Society. Mr. Kuali`i: So primarily, with this whole resolution, the Humane Society's role is just to provide that medical service to neuter the actual cats? So what about the other piece as far as providing the education on what it means to manage these feral cat colonies? Ms. Wiley: Well, I think we're about education all day, every day. It's not only adult education, but it's education with the kids in the schools. And, again, to me, "management" means that we have some person stepping 8 forward to take responsibility that is willing to sign a contract of sorts that says I will do this, that, and the other thing. Then if the person does not live up to those agreements, then something else has to be done. Because otherwise, it's going to become a problem again. Mr. Kuali`i: So who should they sign this contract with? Ms. Wiley: That is a very good question. Mr. Kuali`i: Yes. It's just the whole thing about bringing management into the picture. It's hard to then say that it's just about education, because there seems to be a need for some process. Ms. Wiley: Right. Mr. Kuali`i: And somebody to be responsible. I think when Councilwoman Yukimura then talks about public property and you brought out the Lawa`i post office. Ms. Wiley: Right. Well, the Humane Society is willing to explore ways that we could be involved in this. Mr. Kuali`i: But as a start I think that this resolution was intended to be about that education piece. And then obviously, there are challenges in going beyond educating the volunteers about what "management" is. They're doing it volunteer, so nobody is necessarily enforcing anything, until you go beyond this resolution and do something else, which I don't think is what we were doing with this resolution. Ms. Wiley: No. Mr. Kuali`i: Thank you. Chair Furfaro: First of all, I want to make everybody aware of, a resolution is not an ordinance. It's not a binding law. It's a policy statement that we would pursue this, and if there was discussion about getting all the parties together, and just let's say the county was willing to fund the facilitator in a meeting room at the Humane Society, did I hear you say you are willing to help? Did I hear that? Okay. Ms. Wiley: Of course. Chair Furfaro: Mr. Bynum and then Mr. Rapozo, and then members, after those two questions I'm going to let these ladies go. We have promised to start the rules committee meeting. Ms. Yukimura: I want my questions answered too. Chair Furfaro: We'll go back to the Vice Chair. Ms. Yukimura: Oh no, you can do the others first. 9 Chair Furfaro: Okay thank you. I could have had that facilitated at the end. Go ahead, Mr. Bynum. Mr. Bynum: You may not know this but do you have a ballpark figure how many feral cats are on Kauai? Ms. Wiley:. No. Mr. Bynum: But it's a lot, right? Ms. Wiley: It's a lot. Mr. Bynum: Everywhere? Ms. Wiley: Everywhere. Mr. Bynum: And they create problems, environmental problems, right? Ms. Wiley: Sure. Mr. Bynum: Okay. And...yeah, I will save my comments for later. I just...you don't have a ballpark figure? Ms. Wiley: No, and that's... Mr. Bynum: I do have a couple of other questions. I know...I have learned a lot about this over the last six weeks. I know a lot of people, well- intentioned people, go out and feed cats because they feel bad about it. If they do that without spay and neutering, without management, it causes more problems. Ms. Wiley: It does. Mr. Bynum: Correct? Ms. Wiley: Yes. Mr. Bynum: And you know, they are well intended. Ms. Wiley: Absolutely. Mr. Bynum: The people involved with feral cats understand that, right? Ms. Wiley: Yes, they do. Mr. Bynum: And their goal, as you understand it, is for the colonies they choose to manage to reduce their numbers over time. Ms. Wiley: Absolutely, that is their goal. Mr. Bynum: Okay, thank you. 10 Chair Furfaro: Mr. Rapozo? Mr. Rapozo: Just one real simple question. There is a difference between "feral" and "pet?" Ms. Wiley: Yes. Mr. Rapozo: I had to make sure we're not mixing up the two. A pet cat is not a feral cat; a feral cat is not a pet cat. Ms. Wiley: Right. Mr. Rapozo: So we're talking about two different pets...I mean animals. Ms. Wiley: You raise a good point, though. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Ms. Wiley: Because, in my opinion, this starts... the problem starts in our neighborhoods with neighbors who have cats that are just multiplying and multiplying and multiplying to the point that those cats have to go out elsewhere. A few of you had kind of alluded to that sort of the white elephant in the room, I guess. Chair Furfaro: On that note, okay I'm going to go to Councilwoman Nakamura. Ms. Nakamura: Thank you. First of all, I want to thank the Kauai Humane Society for responding to these questions in a timely manner and your thoughtful responses. I appreciate it, since many of them were my questions. I wanted ask you, just to follow-up on some previous questions. Do you believe that the Kauai Humane Society should be the focal point for registration of cat colonies? I'm asking because I think it's an additional responsibility, and I don't know if you have a process now. Ms. Wiley: You know, I apologize to all my friends who are sitting in the back of the room, because I think Kauai ferals is a great group with great people doing great work, and I think it's necessary work. There is a little bit of a difference between the Humane Society's mission statement and Kauai feral's mission statement. And again, our goal is to reduce the necessity of having humane euthanasia, so we're all about education and spay/neuter, spay/neuter, spay/neuter, spay/neuter, educate, educate. So it is a little bit against our mission to have and... I don't want... manage feral cat colonies. I mean for us, we feel like if we can find them a home that's the best situation, and if not, we feel like humanely euthanizing is the best situation. We understand that that's difference mission that Kauai ferals and these other compassionate people who really care about these cats, and we really appreciate what they do and that they do care, and we do care about the feral cats too as well. So I don't know that I'm answering your question very well, but it doesn't really fit perfectly into our mission and to our position statements to have and manage and register feral cat colonies, but we want to support our friends and help in any way that we can. Does that give you any kind of... 11 Ms. Nakamura: Oh no, no, no, that...I think that is from the little I have read, that is a concern of humane societies nationwide, trying to figure out what is the comfortable middle ground here? So I think all of the things that you raised in your testimony about getting the property owner's permission, making sure that the animals are healthy, identified, are living in clear areas, that there's somebody there removing new members, locating away from sensitive environmental areas, all of these things are important considerations and should be part of some sort of registration process that includes input from other agencies beyond the Humane Society, but I'm talking about county or state agencies. But I also realize that there are resources needed to do the management, and the question is will these resources be privately offered or is the expectation that will be that the county pay for these through additional grants to organizations like the Humane Society? I think that's... for me, that is what I want to know. What is the consequence of this policy? And so I am happy to hear about possibilities of further discussion, because I think that is what is needed is additional dialogue with the different stakeholders to see what is really best for Kauai. So anyway, I was going to save that till later, but since you guys are leaving, I just wanted to share that that is the discussion that we need to have. Chair Furfaro: Ladies, before you do leave, could you hold on for a a follow-up question from Councilmember Yukimura. Then I would also like, could you submit something to us that indicates kind of a... identifies a number of the spay and neuter that you are doing now on the county's nickel? Ms. Wiley: Oh yeah, we include that with our county reports, all of our statistics, and I have that right here, and you guys have it, too. Chair Furfaro: If I could get another copy of it too. Ms. Wiley: Sure. Chair Furfaro: Some of us read it and then we file it. Ms. Wiley: every day. Chair Furfaro: Ms. Wiley: Chair Furfaro: I'm going to let these Well, you have this much paper you have to read Lucky we have cathedral ceilings here (inaudible). For real. On that note, Councilwoman Yukimura, and then ladies go, and I plan to go back to the rules committee. Ms. Yukimura: Thank you. I would like to go to the rules committee, but I appreciate having the time to have this dialogue too. My question was if TNR is only part of a bigger plan, what is that bigger plan? And certainly, education is part of it, but what are you educating? And who are you educating? And how is this education effectively keeping or controlling the population of feral cats? That is my question. So when we talked about the privately-owned pets, who are not neutered, which are not neutered, and as the ones that are maybe causing the problems, because that is the faucet that continues to flow and multiply and multiply and multiply, so even if you have TNR, you are not going to solve your 12 problem. So what is the solution to that? That has to be part of the discussion. If our ultimate goal is to control the population of feral cats on this island, because pets that overpopulate that are unwanted, become feral cats, and beget feral cats. So that is my question. If we just say that it's part of an overall plan, but nobody talks about what the overall plan is, then we're not going to achieve our goal. Ms. Wiley: Right. I think that is maybe what Councilmember Nakamura was referring to as well. But from the Humane Society mission standpoint, education is part of our mission, and we do that every day. We reach about 3500 kids a year. We have all kinds of things that we do, and spay/neuter is definitely part of that, too. I know Oahu finally when it got to the point that where it was...they thought legislation was necessary on Oahu. I understand it was an ugly process. On Oahu, if you have a pet cat, it has to be identified and it has to be spayed and neutered for a pet cat. So I don't know if Kauai is ready for that. Ms. Yukimura: Well, is that actually solving the problem of feral cats? Ms. Wiley: I don't have any of O`ahu's statistics with me, but we have a very good relationship with Hawaiian Humane Society and that is something that Ori could definitely get back to you on. Ms. Yukimura: Okay. So we don't even need to talk about it if it's not really effectively reducing the feral cat population on Oahu, right? We need to find other solutions, and I guess the question would also be I know that the Humane Society does so much education, but the question is what kind of education is needed to reduce the feral population on Kauai? And are there other ways to educate that maybe we're not doing and with more partners than maybe you presently have that would really make a dent in this problem? And I'm not saying that you are not making a dent. Ms. Wiley: We are making a dent, and I think that's the point that if we don't do something like this, then it does get worse. Ms. Yukimura: I agree. So I think just by keeping the levels of what we are at, although we should know what those levels are as much as possible, because we can't tell whether we're making a dent unless we have some baseline measurement. But yes, I believe your educational efforts and. the spay/neuter services that are freely given are really making a dent. But it appears that we're not making enough of a dent, because we still have the problem. So the question is how do we address the remainder of the problem effectively and keep it from growing, as it appears to have grown in Oahu? Ms. Wiley: I agree. Chair Furfaro: Ladies, thank you very much. I, too, don't know how to defer... decipher a "dent" versus "major coalition." I don't know, but I want to go back to my question, if we find some money to facilitate a discussion about this problem, can we count on Kauai Humane Society, if we fund a facilitator, you would... Ms. Wiley: Absolutely. 13 Chair Furfaro: Because we need this data as the Vice Chair has said. Ms. Wiley: Sure. Chair Furfaro: Now on that note, I want to tell you that the priorities of calendar items come through the discretion of the Chair, and I have committed this time two weeks ago based on the rules committee. So we will continue this discussion after lunch. And I thank you for being here, but I also know you have to be at another location. Ms. Wiley: Thank you very much. Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much. Ms. Skomoroch: Thank you so much and we'll get back to you quickly. Chair Furfaro: Thank you. And you were directing that response to the Vice Chair, right? You will you get back to her? Thank you very much. Members on that note, we're going to stay in the Committee of the Whole. We are going to find ourselves pursuing the rest of this after 1:30. I would like to actually start the testimony for the rules committee, and I want you to know that I would like people to be given the time to testify before we go to lunch first, because I had deferred this as an earlier item on the agenda. So could we recess from that resolution item and go to the rules committee? Chair Furfaro: My plan is to turn this committee meeting over to Vice Chair Yukimura. But first, may I see in the audience, how many of you plan to testify on this bill, because we will take testimony first. We have four people, and if we multiply that by 6 and give a minute in between every one, it will take us 36 minutes. And we have exactly 36 minutes before we go to recess. So on that note, Council Vice Chair Yukimura, I'm going to turn the meeting over to you for the purpose of first taking testimony. There being no objections, Chair Furfaro relinquished chairmanship of the meeting to Councilmember Yukimura. (Note: Public testimony was received from Linda Harmon, Glenn Mickens, Rob Abrew, and Ken Taylor. See Committee Report No. CR-COW 2011-19) Chair Furfaro: We're in recess for lunch. There being no objections, the Chair recessed the meeting at 12:22 p.m. The meeting reconvened at 1:36 p.m., and proceeded as follows: Chair Furfaro: On that note, we will continue to take public testimony. I want to thank everybody for their patience with our juggling of two committee items today. Is there anyone in the audience that would like to offer additional or new testimony in item Resolution No. 2011-02 (sic) in its second draft? Welcome. There being no objections, the rules were suspended. 14 MARGARET SUEOKA: Good afternoon, I'm Margaret Sueoka. I have not really much to add. I do have a list of supporters who signed a petition. I'd like to make copies for all of you if I can hand this out. Chair Furfaro: Peter, would you... Eddie? Thank you very much. Ms. Sueoka: And I'm not sure if you'd like to see this, but we do have some thank you cards from some kids that we had done a presentation at Chiefess a few weeks back to the 8th graders, and they've all given us their comments on the education regarding overpopulation and the value of spay and neuter. I don't know if any of you would like to look through this quickly while we're discussing this or not...if it's of any value. Chair Furfaro: Is this section on animal hoarding, is that coming from you, Peter, or from the testifier? Oh, it's coming from Councilwoman Yukimura, okay. Ms. Yukimura: It's just the statute. Chair Furfaro: Thank you, Margaret. The cards are still coming around the table. Are there additional questions for Margaret? Councilmember Chang? Mr. Chang: Thank you Chairman. Margaret, thank you for coming back with your group. I earlier, when thing were getting shuffled around, I did pass out this letter from one of our residents that I addressed it with the Humane Society and I did give you a copy. Maybe you might want to give your perspective to some of the questions that this citizen had made reference to, the five bullet points. Ms. Sueoka: Tight. So the first one was TNR policy does not protect cats from starvation, disease, and violence. It helps, and the more it's adopted, the more cats are going to be protected from starvation, disease, and to some extent, violence. If we do nothing, they will most assuredly die of starvation, disease, and violence. So it's an attempt to begin to mitigate. As for no. 2 TNR does not protect vulnerable children or adults from feline diseases, contaminating ocean waters. To the extent that it reduces population, yes, it will help. And I have to say that from the articles I have read, it appears to me that...I think they were talking about toxoplasmosis, and that is already in the ocean, that is already in our seals, and they don't know precisely where it came from. It survives treatment in the sewage facilities, it survives for two years in salt water, so it is out there, and failing to do anything about our cat population will not solve the problem. Her third point is that TNR should include individual medical evaluation of each trapped cat, sick cats should be euthanized. Typically, that is what happens, If they test positive for certain diseases, they can't be treated and do not return to the colony. We remove them once they get sick, if we can, and they are all microchipped, spayed and neutered, and we do try and treat them with worm medicine and the (inaudible) when we can. So they do get care. I mean if we ignore them, they certainly won't get any care at all. And she says can we manage TNR logistically, do we have vets available at Humane for existing animal care, plus the TNR policy population. I'm not sure what that question means, but we are slowly trying to get a handle on TNR, we're trying to expand to more colonies, but we can only work 15 with people who want to maintain these colonies, because as the Humane Society said this morning, we don't just spay and neuter and release. It has to be a cat that's going to be watched over and looked after. It's not just you don't just pick them off the streets and throw them back out there. I don't know if I can answer of if I have answered that point. The final point is the TNR policy alone does not prevent environmental damage on the island, i.e., killing the bird population. That issue of killing birds is hotly contested. There have been communities, in Florida for instance, who have had their animal control come in and remove the cat populations and they have seen their bird populations plummet, because what happens is the rats come in and they climb trees, they can go anywhere and get to the eggs, the nestlings, and the birds. So even if...well, I think it's indisputable that cats do prey on birds to some extent. Their primary prey has always been...they were rat hunters and mice hunters, that is why they joined with people long ago when people began to harvest and store grain. The cats came in and became pets because they were following the rodents and not the birds. So I think that there is a lot of environmental causes that are resulting in the drop in our bird populations. You cannot really single out cats. And for every study you try and show me that says cats are the problem, I will show you one at least that says they are not, or they are just one of many factors. Mr. Chang: I'm glad you brought that up, because I just want to let you know, this resident is relatively new, I believe, to the island of Kauai. I kind of explained the fact that Kauai and Lanai was the only islands that did not introduce the mongoose. So that is something that I'm glad you mentioned. Another question I was going to ask you, because you might be able to answer this instead of Humane Society, Councilmember Yukimura had asked if we knew how many feral...what was the feral population for Kauai? I thought I read something today that the feral population of cats on Oahu was about 100,000. So do you folks have maybe some... Ms. Sueoka: Years ago, I was told about 44,000, but that was years ago. I don't know how you even measure it. I just read an article that December of 2010 that said Maui had 300,000 to 400,000. So nobody really...I don't think anybody really knows what have. Mr. Chang: My last question was, I think one of our Councilmembers had addressed, does it cost anything when they bring in the feral cat from a colony? When they bring a cat in, whether it's diseased or they just want to get it spayed or neutered, and the question was asked, does the Humane Society charge... do you folks have funding? Because they were telling us no. But I saw in the back that there were people commenting that you folks have funding. So does the Humane Society... They do not charge for spay and neuter, but you folks have moneys to get the colonies spayed and neutered? Ms. Sueoka: Well, they don't charge us for the surgery, but they do charge us for microchip. All cats have to be microchipped, because you need to be able to figure out...if it turns up somewhere, you need to know where it came from just for recordkeeping and everything else. We do pay for testing, especially for adult males to make sure that they don't have potential diseases. Because if they do, our agreement is we do not return them to the colony; they are euthanized. So we do assume those costs. Mr. Chang: What does it cost? Approximately. 16 Ms. Sueoka: $5 for a microchip and between $15 and $20 for the FIB test. Sometimes I pay 20, sometimes I pay 15, but I don't know if I'm just making a donation. Mr. Chang: So does it cost you anything to spay, or neuter, or euthanize? Ms. Sueoka: No. In either case, that is no cost to us. Mr. Chang: Did you see this report we got backdated May 19th? Ms. Sueoka: I saw it, yes. Mr. Chang: Okay, because I was a little confused when that question was asked, because on the second page, numbers 3 and 4, it was said, in general spay and neuter costs are $65. Ms. Sueoka: I think they were asked to budget...they were asked to calculate what it costs them to do it. It's not of their cost to us, it's what they're incurring. Mr. Chang: Okay, I understand. Okay Margaret, thank you. Thank you Mr. Chair. Chair Furfaro: Any other questions? Mr. Bynum. Mr. Bynum: Good afternoon. When you are managing a colony, do you ever notice it increase, and if so, why? Ms. Sueoka: I will tell you, we had an increase when the economy first went south on us in 2008. We noticed a lot of abandoned adult cats. That situation has eased, so we're back to losing members and all of our colonies are seeing a decrease. Occasionally you still see an abandoned can, and adult, but we don't have kittens anymore, so we're seeing the numbers drop. Mr. Bynum: So in the colonies that you are personally familiar with, you are seeing the numbers drop? Ms. Sueoka: Yes. Mr. Bynum: Through attrition? Ms. Sueoka: Right. Mr. Bynum: If you see a new cat that's among this group, what do you do? Ms. Sueoka: It depends. If it's tameable, I can try. and trap it and take it to the Humane Society. We have a scanner, so we can see if it's somebody's... occasionally, people, believe it or not, pick up their neighbor's cat and take it somewhere and abandon it. So we've been able to reunite them. Sometimes 17 we can't catch them and they become part of the colony, but usually we can find a way to reconcile them and still drop our overall numbers. Mr. Bynum: I'm going to ask... Well, speaking for myself, I appreciate the work that you all are doing, and I think as I said earlier, I asked the Humane Society, do these folks get it, in essence. But if I'm going to support this resolution, I'm going to propose an amendment. So if I could just read you this amendment and see if you have any concerns about it. I'm going to read a section. It's a whereas section that would be reworded. It would also...the resolution would be support of trapping, neutering, return, and management as suggested by the Humane Society. But from your answers, I think that is what you are doing-you are managing these colonies. Ms. Sueoka: Yes, we never... As I said, we don't embrace just spaying, neutering, and abandoning them. The whole idea is to give them some level of care and contact for as long as they are able to survive. Mr. Bynum: And the goal is a reduction of the colony. Ms. Sueoka: Absolutely. I would love to someday wake up and know that there is not a cat on this island that is not attached to an individual or a family. That is what everybody is working for. Mr. Bynum: So the wording would be, whereas the county has observed that many jurisdictions around the world have adopted as a component of a humane approach to population control for homeless and feral cats a program known as trap, neuter, return, and manage, provided... or TNRM, provided the resources and management are adequately provided. Do you have a problem with that? Ms. Sueoka: Provided the resources... Say it again, if you could. Mr. Bynum: That people have adopted as a component TNRM, provided the resources and management are adequately provided. Ms. Sueoka: So we're talking about the colony, each colony? Mr. Bynum: As one effective tool, provided that resources and management are adequately provided. Okay. Thank you. Chair Furfaro: Members, any other questions? Councilwoman Yukimura. Ms. Yukimura: Hi Margaret. So your colonies are actually dropping in numbers then? And you have written records of this? Ms. Sueoka: I do...well, not written, they're in my computer, but I didn't bring them. Ms. Yukimura: Yeah, like associated with time and numbers. Ms. Sueoka: Yes. 18 Ms. Yukimura: So is there like a reduction over time that you can say that by year so and so they'll be at zero? Ms. Sueoka: You know, it's funny. It depends... some are slower than others and I don't know why. I have one that's down by 50% in less than a year, and some have lost only one or two cats. So I couldn't say. They are all different. Ms. Yukimura: So the one that's down by 50%, what number are they at now? Ms. Sueoka: Six. Ms. Yukimura: Okay, good. But a fed cat will live... These are so cute from these kids. Ms. Sueoka: Yeah, that is all the information there. Ms. Yukimura: Yeah, I can see that they're learning the information, so that's great. I've learned that a stray cat can live for 5 years. I heard two years. And a cat under care lives for 25. So you're actually, by feeding the cats, really extending their life... Well, although you're not...you're feeding them, but you're not inoculating them? Ms. Sueoka: (Inaudible). A colony member usually lives 5 years. Twenty-five to 30 is your pet at home. Five years is what you can give a cat that's living rough, but being fed and watched over to some extent. Ms. Yukimura: I see. Ms. Sueoka: Two years is what happens if you throw them out the door and (inaudible). Ms. Yukimura: So that in five years your six cats will be probably gone? Ms. Sueoka: They should be gone. Ms. Yukimura: Councilmember Bynum is talking about the county adopting a program..at least that's what the language was. Ms. Sueoka: Our intent here is not to have you adopt anything; it's just to have you acknowledge it as sort of ongoing public education. You just acknowledge its validity, I guess. Ms. Yukimura: But my question is, who is administering the program? Ms. Sueoka: We, I guess for lack of a better word, administer because we watch over all our colony caregivers and see that they have what they need, help them with any food or trapping or medication. So if there's an administrator, I guess it would be Kauai ferals. But that doesn't mean that other individuals cannot do this independently of us. 19 Ms. Yukimura: Well, and then so if somebody has been doing it and then they leave for the mainland, who picks up the slack? Ms. Sueoka: You know, that is going to happen anyway. You have people out there feeding them and not doing anything. Not doing any spay and neuter and then they wander off. So I don't know. There is no answer to that. I don't think the Humane Society has the resources to pick this up. Ms. Yukimura: Well, I mean, the thing is that trap, neuter and return, is actually return and feed. Ms. Sueoka: Or maintain. Ms. Yukimura: Yes, or maintain, but when you feed, you are almost changing the balance of nature. And it's okay to feed for those who want to feed, but the question is whether it's county or Humane Society's job to take care of every cat, whether or not they have a home. Ms. Sueoka: I don't think it's either the county's or the Humane Society's job. We have been facilitating that for people who want to do it. And it's not really a matter of interfering with nature. These are domestic animals that have been thrown out and allowed to procreate without homes. I think by "interfering" to the extent that we try and maintain them and drop their numbers in a humane fashion, I think that that's more natural than just throwing them out there. Ms. Yukimura: Yeah, but not all of them are thrown out of a home, right? Some of them are born in the wild. Because these cats that may be in a home, but unneutered, and then they give birth, and then they give birth. I guess this is the big factor, right? I never knew that an unspayed cat can produce up to... is it 11 million? Ms. Sueoka: No, 11,000. Ms. Yukimura: Yeah, I can see it's quite not clear. So 11,000 cats in nine years. Ms. Sueoka: Well, actually that wasn't in nine years. That was two years was 1,000. So I don't know what it is in nine. 1400, okay. Mr. Chang: They got nine lives though. Ms. Sueoka: I don't know where the million came from. I mean that's just a child, that's what he took away with the... Ms. Yukimura: Well, I saw the figure elsewhere. Let's hope you're doing accurate education. Ms. Sueoka: 1420 is what we calculated for two years. So how he got to millions in five, I don't think we took them up that far, so I don't know where that came from. 20 Ms. Yukimura: Well actually, though, the power of... Ms. Sueoka: Yeah, it could be. So he was working on his math. Ms. Yukimura: Nine years exponentially. Ms. Sueoka: They're 8th graders; I guess they do that level. Ms. Yukimura: So I think the Humane Society mentioned that part of management was keeping the colony at a certain level. And so how do you determine what level that is? Ms. Sueoka: Well, you kind of are stuck with what you get, but the numbers go down pretty quickly. I haven't yet faced a situation where I had to say, okay there are too many, I have got to remove some. I haven't seen that yet. The situations they are talking about is when you're had somebody just feeding and feeding and feeding, and the cats are interbreeding and they're not getting proper nutrition, and it's easy to decide who's unhealthy and who cannot make it, and then they're usually removed. But that is not a situation that I have encountered yet. Ms. Yukimura: So some of these places are at public parks. Do you have the permission of the public parks people? Ms. Sueoka: I have notified them and they have not told me not to. And it's been years. It's been like, okay, go ahead, and if there's been no complaints, then they are not going to do anything. So they know and I haven't... they that I'm there, they know what I'm doing, and they told me as far as their concerned, if there are no complaints. Ms. Yukimura: Okay. I mean, that is an issue in terms of management of public parks whether they are the appropriate places for colonies. Ms. Sueoka: The question is, I don't know what is the appropriate place. I would argue that we shouldn't have them anywhere, because we shouldn't have any homeless cats, but you kind of have to take them where you fine them. The idea for me there is to move them into an area where they are not offending the public, the public has minimal awareness of them, and I can work on dropping their numbers. So to the extent that the county decides it doesn't want them there, or the state or whoever, we're all on the same page, just about how we go about getting there. Ms. Yukimura: Well, except that where would you put them then? That is the problem that people are willing to do this, but not at their home, and then there is this law that's 15... Ms. Sueoka: I think that law is, as Ori was saying, is geared to hoarders. I think that there is a second element to that, which is neglect or abuse. It's not just a number. I think there is an element of abuse attached to the law. Ms. Yukimura: Yes, it's 15 cats or dogs. 21 Ms. Sueoka: It's a useful tool and a reality check for people in a residential neighborhood who want to have 40 cats. It's a useful way of getting them to take a look at... Ms. Yukimura: Come down to 15. Ms. Sueoka: Be more realistic and consider the neighbors. Ms. Yukimura: Okay. So it seems that if there is to be further discussion about this, then the people from parks need to be at the table. You know? Because they are impacted. Ms. Sueoka: I would like to ask that if, and we have no objection, and we would love to discuss this with DLNR, anybody, but I would like to see the county to have endorsed this and encouraged the parties by passing this resolution, just as a way of saying yes, you are onboard and you want the parties to meet and discuss this. Otherwise, I don't know that the parties would really have any incentive to come forward. DLNR has had knowledge of the cats for years and years and years and they have not come up with a management plan that I'm aware o£ So I'm not sure how big of an issue they really feel it is, if they haven't moved forward with anything. If you folks are willing to say, okay we think this is a good idea and we're going to just express it in the form of a resolution to encourage the parties to come together, where everybody can be on the same page, I think that would be great. Ms. Yukimura: Well, encouraging people to come together is one thing. Passing a resolution that says to parks you need to do this without having them at the table to give input first is not really a good way to set public policy. Ms. Sueoka: I don't think that the resolution tells parks that they have to do anything. Ms. Yukimura: Well, but you said that...you yourself said that the implication of passing this would be to say that we want to this to happen in the parks. Ms. Sueoka: But you've also... Chair Furfaro: Excuse me, I'm going to interrupt here. Council Vice Chair, pose it as a question, rather than a discussion. You had your time for public comment. We need to focus on questions. Ms. Yukimura: Thank you, Chair. So I think that has answered all of my questions. Thank you. Chair Furfaro: Any other questions? Ms. Yukimura: I have one more. Chair Furfaro: You have the floor still. 22 Ms. Yukimura: How do you keep the colonies at a stable level, if you see an increase? Because that was one of the points of management that the Humane Society said should be done. Ms. Sueoka: Kittens are trapped and removed, socialized, and to the extent possible, adopted. Older cats, often you have to face euthanizing them. Because if they're not tamed, they have to be euthanized. And even if you can turn them into the Humane Society as tamed, they often don't find homes just because there are so many cats. So that would be what you would have to do. Ms. Yukimura: Chair Furfaro: Okay, thank you. Mr. Rapozo? Mr. Rapozo: Margaret, thank you for being here. How long have you folks been doing TNR, your group? Ms. Sueoka: At least five years. We have only been anon-profit for about a year but we started many years ago. Mr. Rapozo: In the five years that you folks have been doing this, you've obviously seen a reduction in the colony sizes? Ms. Sueoka: Yes, there was, like I said, there was an uptick for a while, but it's getting down. Mr. Rapozo: You mentioned that you take the cats into the Humane Society and they get tested for disease? Ms. Sueoka: Yes. Mr. Rapozo: Have you folks seen a large number of that toxoplasmosis? Ms. Sueoka: We don't test for that. I supposed you could, because there's a test for humans, because there's a certain percentage of humans that have it. But we don't test for that. I'm not sure what relevance that would have. It's already out there in the environment. Mr. Rapozo: Well, but the public doesn't know that. Ms. Sueoka: Yeah, that is true. Mr. Rapozo: The public only knows what they are told, and they are not told that. They are also not told that that virus is also in dogs. Ms. Sueoka: Yes, and some birds. Mr. Rapozo: And in fact, dogs run rampant on the beaches all the time. So I guess my question is, as I'm reading the letter from NOAA, they say the last 10 years there have been a handful of confirmed cases of toxoplasmosis in Hawaiian monk seals; they don't say where it's from. There's no way you're going to be able to tell where they're from, could be from cats, dogs, potentially from humans 23 that are on the beach. I know a lot of discussion is going to go that way, because I've gotten the emails from, you know, no don't do this because you're going to kill the monk seals. But I think without the proper information as far as, where is it, what is a handful in 10 years, you know, that monk seals that actually has had that toxoplasmosis, and in fact where did it really come from. Ms. Sueoka: Well, they don't know, and I think that they're doing a study now to determine how much of it is from the sewage effluent. Mr. Rapozo: From humans. Ms. Sueoka: Well no, and also if you put your cat...you know, they have these flushable litters now, so a lot of people flush their cat litter and it goes right through the sewer system and out into the ocean, and the eggs are right out there. So that is the problem. They don't know... and cats, feral cats, cats and water don't mix usually, so they are not on the beach. It would be from some other source of flow. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Chair Furfaro: Any other questions at this time? Councilmember Kuali`i? We need to honor your time, and just for public notice, we have received from Councilmember Kuali`i his intent to leave the meeting at 2:45 today to attend a celebration in Anahola. Mr. Kuali`i: Aloha and mahalo, Margaret. So similar question to what I asked the Humane Society folks earlier today. The original resolution was about trap, neuter and return, and from the way I was looking at it, it was primarily about doing education. So making sure that the public at-large and of course specifically those who participate in caring for the cats in that way knew more...you know, to truly care for the cats you should be getting them neutered so that the population is limited, and to ultimately do away with the colonies. Now the Humane Society in their communication to us added the whole idea about management; however, it's not management in the sense that somebody is responsible now to manage it, whether it be the county, the Humane Society, or maybe even your organization. I imagine you're just a few volunteers. You don't necessarily have the resources and time to be full-time managers of every colony on this island. But the primary point or issue, I guess, is about education on what that management should be. So do you see your organization working with the Humane Society? Because they say they do education every day, in developing some kind of how-to for all of these volunteers that are currently? Even before when you talked with us, you are not necessarily involved with each colony. There are many colonies that you are not able to reach necessarily, but maybe the education can reach them? Ms. Sueoka: And we do get a lot of calls, a lot of people referred to us by the front staff of the Humane Society, and we do talk to a lot of people who are maintaining colonies about the need to spay and neuter and to make sure that the cats are not offending any neighbors, just keeping them low-profile and healthy. Mr. Kuali`i: So do you agree then that this resolution, even if they added the management component, if it's about the education of how they should be managed, it's kind of like the first step? By doing the outreach, the education, putting the resolution in place to do that education, and then there needs 24 to be more discussion and more action and maybe more... some bill or something coming forward from this body, if it is to involve some manager to actually...especially when it comes to public places such as parks. But this resolution in itself is not about the management in public parks at this time. Is that what you would say? Ms. Sueoka: No, when we originally conceived this, it was a way of getting the word out about trap, neuter, and return, and management as a way of controlling and diminishing the population of cats. The people knew there was an option besides trying to round them up and euthanize them, because that never works, because you never get them all. So it's just an endless cycle of cruelty. So this was the first step, and hopefully the first step in getting people to see how bad it was so that they would begin to spay and neuter their pets and stop the upflow...or the down...the upstream problem. So, yes. Have I answered your question? Mr. Kuali`i: Yes. And so as a last question, do you have an idea now about how many cats do you bring in to the Humane Society to be neutered? Is that the word... every month or so? Ms. Sueoka: No, I have... I have spreadsheets, but I don't... Chair Furfaro: I have some statistics and I would like to share that with you like now... Mr. Kuali`i: That is my last question. Chair Furfaro: Just so we know, for the last two years the Humane Society has taken in in one year 3,179 cats, of which they have found homes for 475 and 2,704 were euthanized. In the next year, they took in 3,266 cats, of which they found homes for 487, and 2,779 were euthanized. So the cat admittance, I guess for lack of another term, into the Human Society was up roughly three percent from one year to the next. I hope that helps. Mr. Kuali`i: But it doesn't say anything about the neutering... you know, they bring them in, trap, neuter, and return. Chair Furfaro: Yeah, I believe what happened is the 487 that were adopted, the 475 of them were adopted and neutered. Ms. Sueoka: No, I think... Ms. Yukimura: Yeah, how many were released... Chair Furfaro: Well, if 4,779 were euthanized, they didn't get released to go too far. Ms. Sueoka: Right, but we usually just bring them in, get them spayed and neutered, and go back out. So they're not really part of the intake... I don't think they're part of the intake number. I think it's a separate issue, because those are cats that are surrendered by people. 25 Chair Furfaro: I have that information on page 2. Page 2 says, of those that were spayed and neutered and trapped, in the first year I mentioned were 522 that were not part of the total. And in year 2010, that number was 489. Ms. Sueoka: So we have a lot of work to do. Chair Furfaro: Yeah, and I read it that way, because I heard the testimony earlier about trying to find a home for every cat, but this success rate is about 12% of what they are catching or being turned in. I hope that helps you Councilmember. Mr. Kuali`i: Yes, thank you, Chair. Chair Furfaro: Any more questions? If not, I'll ask for the next speaker. Oh, you want time. Here we go. Ms. Nakamura: Thank you. Thank you for the work that you are doing. I spoke to Judy Dalton this morning and learned a little bit more about the work that she does to really find homes for the cats that are left on the side of the road, and the personal funds that all of you are using to care for these cats. The question that I have is does Kauai feral have a process for registering colonies? And do you see that as your role? Ms. Sueoka: Well, I keep track of all the colonies and I know which cats came from where and I know approximately how many there are in each colony on a month to month basis, even if we're not involved with them. Ms. Nakamura: Do you think there is a need for a registration process, like other counties have that you have documentation that the landowner has given permission to have this colony on the property? Sort of some standards for some of these colonies. The things that you mentioned that you're doing, I guess, but more standardizing it. Ms. Sueoka: I think it wouldn't be a bad idea. Because then I could just...then it would be easier for the Humane Society and for us to tell people, say on the north shore or the west side, what they need to do to have a viable colony, because we can't be everywhere. Ms. Nakamura: You said it would be a bad idea? Ms. Sueoka: No, it would not be a bad idea. Ms. Nakamura: Oh, it would not be a bad idea, yeah. The thing is doing this takes resources to have to manage the colonies...I mean just to make sure, okay, you have the documentation from the landowner, you've got some documentation from let's say DLNR, forestry and wildlife, saying it's far away from nesting seabird habitats. So at least you've got some checklist. Ms. Sueoka: I'm not sure... Well, checklists would be good, but who is going to... If you are on private property at some point, if you don't do it to the owner's satisfaction, they will tell you that is it and you are out of here. So I'm not sure how necessary it is on private property and I have a little bit of a concern about requiring DLNR and Fish & Wildlife to sign off on things. It would be better 26 if we knew.. , if they did what I thought that they were working on a couple years ago, which is to establish areas where there were known endangered species areas, so that everybody knew don't even try to set up a colony there. But to have them have to go through every single application or whatever it was to sign off on it might take a long time, and in the meantime, the caregiver is worried because the cats are starving and they don't know if they can go in, or whatever. So from my perspective it would be better if the agencies could just designate areas where they didn't want any feral animals because of the (inaudible). Ms. Nakamura: But if they have the list of 12 current colonies that at least the Humane Society is aware of and you may have more to add to that. They could go through the list and tell you which areas are sensitive and which areas are not. Ms. Sueoka: They could if they finished (inaudible), but I don't know if they have. Ms. Nakamura: They have not seen the list. Ms. Sueoka: No, but I don't know if they've gone through the whole island and figured out what they consider a high risk area, because I know that they were working on that about two years ago. So it might be some...they might not be able to give us an answer is what I guess I'm saying. They might not know. Ms. Nakamura: Well, I think they wanted... The staff that I talked to at DLNR wanted the opportunity to look at the list. Ms. Sueoka: Well, I would be happy to talk with them about it. I certainly have no desire to put cats where there is endangered species, and I think we've maintained that all along. Ms. Nakamura: Okay, that is good.. So I have another question having to do with the...we know the cost of the spay/neuter, the microchip, the testing of the diseases. What type of ongoing maintenance or vaccinations are needed? What is a typical annual cost? Ms. Sueoka: You can't vaccinate many of these cats, because you can't trap them year after year. You get one shot at them and that is when you spay and neuter them and make sure they are healthy when you put them back out. I can apply oral medications of some sort in their food, but I can't retrap them, most of them, for a vaccine schedule. Ms. Nakamura: So they don't get vaccinated? Ms. Sueoka: No, they don't. But they don't...the colonies that I'm familiar with are not in...for the most part, they're not near... Well, I don't think there is too much bleed over with residential cats. You would think that people who valued their cats would have them vaccinated, and it wouldn't matter if they came into contact with a cat that wasn't, but I don't know that that is true here. But the onus would be on the pet~owner to vaccinate. Ms. Nakamura: And since they have no owners, it's not happening? 27 Ms. Sueoka: It was, just that you...I mean if we could, we would, but how the heck are you going to get these things back in a trap every year? Ms. Nakamura: Right, but normally you would do a annual vaccination if you had a cat? I'm not a cat owner, so I don't know. Ms. Sueoka: I used to do that for my cats, but then I've heard that it's not always a good thing. It's like this... any vaccine, sometimes you should stretch it out further, because it can... I don't know, the science is a little bit up and down on that. Ms. Nakamura: Would you be open to having discussions with other people around the table to talk about how there can be improved communications or coordination in the different roles of different agencies? Ms. Sueoka: I would be. I think that it's worked very well in other jurisdictions. On the mainland, they have managed to bring together the nature conservancy and the cat-lovers and worked out something that everybody's happy with; it can be done. Ms. Nakamura: And then see what works for Kauai; what's the best way to roll this out here. Okay. Thank you. Chair Furfaro: Any more questions of the testifier? If not, Margaret, thank you very much. Ms. Sueoka: Thank you. Chair Furfaro: Anyone else would like to testify on this item? KUULEI SANTOS: Aloha, my name is Kuulei Santos and I'm a Hanapepe resident. The reason that I'm here is not to say that, you know, picking up stray cats and neutering them and bringing them back into society is a wrong thing. It's some of the places that they choose and how those sites are managed. And from personal experience, we have a cat colony that aligns our salt patch. And for the past three years, I have asked for it to be moved, and it hasn't. Last year the population probably grew to about 75 to 100 cats. We went and met with the Humane Society. First we met with the cat colony that was feeding the cats there and asked them nicely to move the cats, because it's right on the border of the salt pans. So what happens is water flows from the hill right to that spot, travels down into our salt patch, which we are the lowest. They refused to move. So we met with the Humane Society. We had an agreement that the cat colony would be moved by January 1 of this year. Was it this year or last year? I'm not too sure. Anyways, the cat colony has not been moved and there were still 50 cats at the beginning of this year. The salt-makers hand removed 25 of them, of which what happens is if we catch a cat on county or state parks that has been neutered or spayed, we take it back to the humane society. If that cat has neutered or spayed, the Humane Society will call back that person who maintains that cat colony, picks up the cat back, and that person will then bring it back to that same location. So we're having a tremendous amount of difficulty getting rid of the cats on our own from that spot. Not only is that an issue but what happens as well is with that amount of cats that we had there, the area became extremely dirty. It was smelling. It was really hard 28 to even walk past and not be ill by what was going on. So we asked the county, asked the state, and there is not really much that can be done to help manage, or protect, or move all those cats away from that area. So I'm here to say that if you guys...I mean, I am in support of catching cats and neutering them and controlling it. It's just the place that they maintain it I have a problem with. If they do choose to maintain it in that spot, there has to be some kind of regulations or something to make sure that it's contained so that it doesn't affect the place that they chose. That is what I have to say. Chair Furfaro: Kuulei, let me see if there is any testimony? Anybody wishing to query? Mr. Rapozo. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Thank you, Kuulei. So I guess your position that the TNR concept is a good one; it's just that you want to make sure there is some regulation where in fact these colonies can be maintained? Ms. Santos: Yes, I don't think...I think that we the people who actually are in that area should have a say as to we want it there or we don't want it there. The salt makers do not want it there. We don't want it there. We've asked. We've tried to catch the cats trying to get rid of it, but if they keep bringing it back that doesn't really help any of us out.' MR. Rapozo: Don't feel bad, because I asked parks to remove that colony as well and they didn't respond. I don't think that's a good place to have a colony either. I'm looking at legislation that's going to restrict the colonies in certain areas, or cats and general feeding of animals in county park and so forth. That is forthcoming, but I just wanted to know if in fact the TNR concept, the fact that they are picking up feral cats, spay, neutering, and returning them back to a colony that's non-offensive? Is that something (inaudible)? Ms. Santos: Yeah, I have no problem with that. I just have a problem with the way it's handled to-date, so far. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Chair Furfaro: Any other questions for the testifier? No? Kuulei, thank you very much. Ms. Santos: Thank you. NANCY SCHAEFER: good afternoon. Chair Furfaro: Good afternoon. Before you start I'm going to have you introduce yourself, but I want everybody to know that when your six minutes expires, then we need to take a caption break, and then we'll have Q&A, so after that break. The floor is yours. Ms.. Schaefer: My name is Nancy Schaefer. Thank you for the time you have given me today. It's very difficult for me to determine whether the TNR program or euthanasia would be best for Kauai's feral cat colony. I feel that Councilmember Rapozo's proposal to support the TNR program is a humane approach to the issue. However, the TNR program has created another problem that has impacted residents like myself. This problem that I am speaking of is 29 having a sympathizer of feral cats trap and neuter many cats and instead of returning them to their colonies, she has kept all of them and housed them in makeshift cages, creating a situation we all know of as animal hoarding. My husband and I live 100 feet away from an animal boarder's cages that houses 83 cats. My sister and her husband's house is less than five feet away from the cat cages. The stench from the concentration of these animals impacts all of us 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The crowding of these cats in this environment creates catfights that even a film producer could not mimic. The hoarder also cannot care all of these animals herself, therefore, there is a daily and nightly attendance of people who arrive and are noisy and disruptive during the time that is spent caring for the boarder's cats. There are numerous showings of these animals to tourists that she meets on the beach or someone she meets at the parking lot who sympathizes with her, to viewers so that the hoarder can solicit funds for her cats. Upon viewing these cats, it is obvious that there is disease and poor health conditions amongst them. I'm not a vet but you can clearly see that. I live in Wailua Houselots, which is a residential district, not acommercially-zoned area, and we should not have to live next to this. And I hope that no one in this room is ever subjected to these living conditions. My husband and I and my sister and her husband have had several meetings with the agencies here on this island. And the first one that we did meet with we had a meeting with Ori. And we were informed that there is a Hawaii state law that states that you can only have 15... a combination of 15 animals in a residential area. However, and this was stated earlier, as long as there is no lack of food and water, they have no jurisdiction to take these animals away in the number that are present on this property. And so I know the Humane Society is working with this person, and they were out to the property, because my husband spoke with the animal control officer working who was working with this hoarder, and the count was down to 33. However, what happens and what has happened with the other agencies that have come out to the property, is that it's a scheduled visit and the count immediately returned to 50 once the Humane Society documented that there were only 33. So the visits are unannounced. The planning department came out to the property and she spent...because we live 100 feet away so we see a lot. We see and we smell a lot... and hear a lot. And she spent three days deodorizing the wooden foundation, the floors, and the planning department said that there were no violations and that was no smell. The building department came out also to the property and from the original size of the shed that was grandfathered in from my father and mother, when the property was subdivided was originally 160 feet. The cat cages currently are over 500 square feet, and in one of the cages their water and electricity were added on, but the building department as stated by the inspector that there were no violations. We also had vector come out to the property, and vector, they were very nice. They stated that the State has removed many of their funds for what they can do and what they cannot do, and the only recommendation they made was for measures for how to control the odor, and that was the limit of their jurisdiction. The department of health we went and visited them and they said that the only way they could intervene is if any of us had life-threatening occurrences, like if you had an anaphylactic reaction due to be allergic to cats or whatever. But my concern is with the toxoplasmosis. Toxoplasmosis does not only appear in the water as was stated earlier, it's airborne. And I gave to Councilmember Yukimura something that I just got off the Internet that it does, with the scattering of the litter, there is airborne particles that are breathable. And again, my sister is five feet away from this and we're 100 feet. On a daily basis there is about 40 to 50 pounds of cat poop in bags that are scooped out of these cages. 30 The feral cat population on Kauai is a problem and it impacts Kaua`i's citizens and environment. The TNR program will not decrease the number of feral cats but it encourages hoarding situations on this island. Euthanization doesn't address the ability of cats propagating; it just temporarily reduces the population. I would ask that all of you Councilmembers help in finding a resolution to the feral cat population on this island, as well as addressing the issues that have impacted us. Thank you. Chair Furfaro: I'm going to let Mr. Rapozo pose a question to you. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. How long has that been going on by your house? Ms. Schaefer: Ten years. It started out with...excuse me, it started out with the feeding of the colony down at Lydgate park, and then it was the rescuing and bringing home of cats, and it started out with 13 cats. Two years ago her colony was in the 35 to 40 range and it is... I don't know what it is now, but as of the date that the Humane Society gave you that letter, she actually had 83 cats in there. Mr. Rapozo: Let me say that the government has failed you tremendously. Ms. Schaefer: Yes. Mr. Rapozo: I would want to say that this TNR resolution, although it's not specified in the resolution, requires the return of the animal, not to bring it home. Ms. Schaefer: Yes. Mr. Rapozo: Like I stated earlier, I'm pursuing legislation that's going to excessive amounts of animals or pets in a residential area. The state animal hoarding law is insufficient in that you can have as many animals as you want as long as you feed them and give them water. Only absent that does the 15 kick in. So it's a flawed law. It's a severely flawed law. I'm not sure what that number is. Eighty-three is too much. Fifty is too much. I don't know where that number lies, but it's something that we got to work with our legal department to figure out, and we have been working, just to let you know, on some legislation that is going to address that. But the TNR resolution that is sitting here today is not intended to allow residential areas to become mini humane societies. That is not what this does. It actually would require that cat to be put back into a colony. Now what. needs to be addressed and maybe it's legislatively, I'm not sure, is where that colonies can exist. So I share your pain. I don't get to smell that. I live in the Houselots, but I'm far enough away, but I know what you have been through. I received the comments from the health department and the building and planning and I will be the first to admit that we failed you and we need to fix that. Ms. Schaefer: Yes, it does. It really needs to be fixed. 31 Chair Furfaro: Before we go any further, I'm going to give you the floor when we come back. I want to make sure we're all understanding that this is a state regulation, H.R.S., but we're going to take aten-minute caption break. There being no objections, the Chair recessed the meeting at 2:32 p.m. The meeting was called back to order at 2:46 p.m., and proceeded as follows: (Mr. Kuali`i was noted excused.) There being no objections, the rules were suspended. Chair Furfaro: We're back from our recess. Nancy Schaffer, you have given your testimony and now we're seeing what questions can be directed to you. Ms. Schaefer: Could I make one comment that I forgot to mention earlier? Thank you. I have also had several people and I don't have it completely documented, but I have heard of two other situations on this island that there are people doing the same thing as this hoarder is doing. Again, I don't have it documented, but if there are other incidences of numbers of cats 60-plus being confined in areas as I described earlier. Thank you. Chair Furfaro: I want to say thank you for your testimony. I also want to say I'm just amazed that the state has not taken more structured response to this complaint. Quite frankly, if there are 83 animals there, the reality isn't just about the hoarding and the fact that there was enough food and water, but there are several other issues that surprised me that could not have been interpreted as it dealt with also the neighbor's health and well-being. And that enforcement should have been something that triggered from the health department. So I will be writing them from my office, just to let you know. But Nancy, let me see if we have other testimony for you today. Mr. Chang. Mr. Chang: Are they questions or testimony? Chair Furfaro: Well, it's her testimony, and now we're doing Q&As. I'm sorry if I didn't use the appropriate descriptive adjective. Mr. Chang: Nancy Schaffer, thank you, nice to see you. I just want to first of all begin by saying, you know, when you were here early in the morning, want to thank you for your patience. I think for many Councilmembers, we can look around and see who is testifying, and maybe sometimes wonder who's testifying about what. So when the budget and everything came by, I didn't know why you were testifying, but I appreciate your patience and so being calm when you are explaining the plight that you are going through. You know, you mentioned a word that I don't if it was an acronym, but was like orky? You said o-r-g... Ms. Schaefer: No, I said we spoke with Ori... I don't know her last name, the interim... Mr. Chang: Oh, Orianna Skomoroch. Ms. Schaefer: Yes, the interim executive director. 32 Mr. Chang: Okay. I thought it was an acronym of some sort. And who is vector? What is vector? Ms. Schaefer: Vector is the agency on Kauai that takes care of mosquito abatement. They were involved with other problems on the island, but with the budget cutbacks, that is what David Manguchei told us that they are very limited in what they can provide. Mr. Chang: I also want to ask you, fluctuating from 83 cats to 33 to 35 to 40. Are you a cat owner? Ms. Schaefer: Yes, I am. I have a cat. She's indoors all the time. We have had cats all of our lives. I love cats. I love them. We don't have a dog. We have just a cat. Mr. Chang: I guess maybe I want to ask you this question, I think a lot of not only the amount of the cats, but their living conditions and just the smell and everything associated, I guess for yourself that's alife-long cat owner and knows how to care of them and to be with the cat and enjoy the cat it obviously is painful for you to see what is exactly going on at that point in time. Ms. Schaefer: Yes, it's very painful to see the conditions that these cats are crowded in these two cages. When we spoke with the animal control officer they said that the space...confinement of that space area at the Humane Society, the maximum that cage would hold would be 10 cats and she had 40 and 40-plus in each one. Mr. Chang: Personally, I want to thank you for bringing this up to us, because it's always an educational process. But I remember on Oahu, there were like two incidents probably within a year or so that there were cats and however you call it, hoarding or what have you, so many in unsanitary conditions. But I would like to just say thank you for bringing this up, because for many of us, politically when you walk around the island you see a lot of things. You see trees or flowers you never see blooming. And you see neighborhoods, or you see hedges, or fishponds, or what have you, but sometimes we see, sadly, some very unsanitary and some very alarming situations. So I want to just say that, you know, there is going to be a lot of discussion, but I want to thank you for calmly sitting in front of us today to tell us about your flight so we can better understand the real problems that affect us on the animal side of our itinerary here today. So I just wanted to first of all thank you and when we go around the table, we'll have discussion, but I want to say, patiently thank you for waiting all day to give us your testimony. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ms. Yukimura: I have one question. Chair Furfaro: Go ahead. Ms. Yukimura: I just wanted to be clear, these 85 cats are all neutered? Ms. Schaefer: Yes. 33 Ms. Yukimura: So it isn't a problem of them being neutered but it's the problem of hoarding, as you say? Ms. Schaefer: Yes. And she had a website that... kauaicats.com which since been removed from the Internet, and she advertised that she trapped, neutered, and was furthering an adoptive process. Because we would go over and help her in a time when a medical condition created itself that she needed some help, and she had six kittens that she trapped from somewhere, and she kept all them. She never adopted the cats out. I think in the last six years she's adopted out one cat to one of the volunteers that came to her house. Ms. Yukimura: Okay thank you. Chair Furfaro: Nancy, do you have any correspondence about the history that you've had over the last ten years that you might be able to leave me a copy as I pursue follow-up written responses? Ms. Schaefer: In regards to what? Chair Furfaro: Should you have written to vector control, should you have written to the health department... Ms. Schaefer: I can compile that together, because I did keep notes of all of those contacts. Sure. Mr. Rapozo: Mr. Chair, I'll have staff provide you a copy of all the documentation, because we did send from the Council. So we'll make that available actually to all the Councilmembers so you can read the responses from health department, public works, and humane society. Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Chair Furfaro: Okay, I seem to have it in the possession of Councilmember Rapozo. Any other questions of Nancy? If not Nancy thank you very much. Ms. Schaefer: Thank you. Chair Furfaro: You have testimony on this subject? MAKAALA KAAUMOANA: Aloha Council. I'm Makaala Kaaumoana. I testify today on behalf Hui Ho`omalu i ka `Aina and I have copies for members. Chair Furfaro: Peter, could we grab some testimonies? Ms. Kaaumoana: I gave Councilmember Kuali`i a copy already. I want you to have this one, because they are originally signed. Hui Ho`omalu i ka `Aina is a taro root organization founded in the early 1980s by traditional practitioners of moku halelea to address threats and impacts to the natural and cultural resources of Kauai. Founded by farmers and fishermen, weavers and hunters, we seek to provide contacts for issues related to the ecology of our ahupuaa. The organization is an active advocate for those native things and ways that are disappearing. We are not anon-profit. We are an activist organization. 34 We do not whine and wait. We act. We are a member of the Limu Coalition, and in that capacity, we're plaintiffs in the largest clean water act violation in the United States for a single landowner, the Pila`a case against Mr. Pflueger. That matter was about marine resources that we need to fee our families. Again, represented by Earth Justice, we are active plaintiffs in the current actions on Kauai regarding the Newell shearwater. Those matters are about marine resources that we need to feed our families. The a`o, or shearwater, is our partner. It signals the pile of fish and guides the fishermen to food. We're compelled to testify on this matter today because our resources are disappearing. Our birds, our fish, our seals, our way of life. The history of Kauai is a model of resilience. Resilience requires options. In times of plenty you eat this. In times of famine, you eat that. You must have choices. Spam is not our choice. Vectors reduce choices. Cats are vectors. Although many of us are cat owners, myself included, we are not interested in the emotional issue of saving cats lives. We're invested in our future. Our motivation is feeding our families and supporting the ecology that allows us to do that. Our purpose is to survive. We cannot afford afeel-good exercise. This is about reality. Cats carry disease and fleas, neutered or not. Cats eat birds neutered or not. Irresponsible cat owners have created this problem. Cats did not float here over the ocean; they did not arrive in a canoe or on the wind. Our responsibility is to take responsibility for the stewardship we have been assigned_ Our kuleana is to understand the whole picture and act. Hui Ho`omalu i ka `Aina testifies today on behalf of our kupuna, founders such as Jackie Hashimoto who taught us about the connections, .and who reminds me here today that we must not be distracted from the truth by the appearance of good intentions. This is not about saving the lives of cats. This is about saving the lives of our people and the health of our place. This is about the fish, the birds, the seals, and all the critters that depend on us for their voice. This is about this place and what is right for this place. I am Makaala Kaaumoana, vice chair of Hui Ho`omalu i ka `Aina, and I will not be distracted. That is the end of my prepared testimony. I would like to make note that having heard some of the previous testimony, since we are plaintiffs in the endangered species act litigation that is ongoing regarding the Newell shearwater, and since I understand from listening to Kauai feral's testimony they are anon-profit, and I will leave this place and investigate their need for an incidental take permit. Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much, and obviously that question is something that appears on the radar scene screen as well, not so much as put as bluntly as you did right now. Ms. Kaaumoana: It's my fashion. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Thank you Makaala for being here today. I actually agree with your testimony. I don't think it's a secret.. I'm not a real fan of cats, but I love animals. But I think the bigger problem is if we don't do anything, the feral population continues to grow. That is my bigger concern, because then obviously the impacts to the wildlife grows. The chances of more cats attacking the birds and doing the damage, I think that is the motivation for this resolution. Although I am akind-hearted person, I think the bigger issue for me was how do we stop this compounding growth of feral cats on this island? I don't want to be like Maui at three and 400,000 and Honolulu. So what are the options we have? We have the Humane Society option and we have all these other options, but this is just another viable option that I'm hoping will not increase the size. I think if we do nothing, then yes, I think it increases, and all that what you talked about, and which I agree with, will occur. 35 Ms. Kaaumoana: So the litigation that we're involved with for a`o for the three entities and we're in litigation, two of those defendants are spending a great deal of money in habitat-protection, fencing to keep the cats out, the rats are not an issue, because they deal with that as well, but one of the huge issues is the habitat, is the mauka habitat. It's an issue with toxoplasmosis. These folks might not want to acknowledge that, but NOAA thinks so, and we think so, and Earth Justice thinks so. I suggest to you that releasing a neutered animal doesn't prevent predation, and predation is my problem. Predation is what I'm testifying about and what several entities in our county are spending a great deal of money to prevent. So just on the basis of dollars and cents, it makes no sense to return/release something which you're then going to have to build a fence for. Mr. Rapozo: In this area you are talking about the habitat, is it a colony there, or is it just feral cats? Ms. Kaaumoana: No, no, no, no. The fencing is to protect the seabirds? Mr. Rapozo: From... is there a colony there? Ms. Kaaumoana: From predation. No, no, no. It's not a colony. Mr. Rapozo: .Okay, it's not a colony. Ms. Kaaumoana: Cats are not colonists. They colonize because you attract them with food or whatever. Generally speaking they don't hang in gangs. So the predation that we see on our refuges, on our federal lands, on our state lands, places like Limahuli Preserve, we're spending a great deal of money for exclusionary fencing. It's about cats. The rats we deal chemically, but it's about cats, and the shearwaters have crashed. We have lost 75% of the shearwaters. They are going, folks. The monk seals are crashed. They are going, folks. It's our fault. It's our responsibility, and I'm not interested whether the cat is neutered doesn't mean he has less of an appetite for the bird. It just doesn't. I wish it did. Mr. Rapozo: It just means they cannot reproduce though. Ms. Kaaumoana: That is right. However, you can tell by the numbers that the Chair described earlier, even with just the cats being brought in it's not making much of a dent. The other thing I want to tell you is we had a meeting not too long ago where we all sat down at the beach in Ha`ena, and three of us came away the next day with these extraordinary bites, and they were sand fleas. Those don't come from just the basic environment. Those are feral cats and I know of two colonies there. One is managed by a really good friend of all of ours. That is a serious issue, and we know that there is a connection there as well. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Councilmember Yukimura. And on this, just again, a caution, she will pose a question, you answer the question, the time for narrative is pau. Ms. Kaaumoana: We'll try to remember the rules. 36 Chair Furfaro: Mahalo. Thank you. Councilwoman? Ms. Yukimura: So obviously the Hui doesn't feel that TNR is a viable plan, but we all have this common goal of reducing the number of feral cats. Does the Hui have any suggestions how we can do that? Ms. Kaaumoana: I have no problem with trapping them. And I have no problem with euthanizing them. I have no problem with the Humane Society trapping them and if they have funding for neutering and want to try to adopt them out, I think that's a great plan. I got both of my cats from the Humane Society, but I'm not interested in releasing a neutered cat as a benign part of our community, because they are not. Ms. Yukimura: I see. And this is the first time I heard of sand fleas related to cats? Ms. Kaaumoana: I actually asked about it because I didn't know the connection. I couldn't figure out where they were coming from and that is my information. There are some feral cats that have been up near our farm as well in Kilauea and we had an issue with our dog getting very, very itchy and it was the vet that said that that was from a feral cat, that those were sand... those were fleas. And I said is that the same thing as I'm experiencing on the beach, and he said yes, that's where they come from. That was Dr. Basko. Ms. Yukimura: And so there are sand fleas... There are fleas and there are sand fleas; they are two different things? Ms. Kaaumoana: It's a different bite, I will tell you. It's a totally different bite. Ms. Yukimura: I see, okay. But those are carried by cats as well? Ms. Kaaumoana: That is what he told me. He told me, have you had a feral cat on your farm? Ms. Yukimura: Okay, so there was commentary that the toxoplasmosis exists anyway in the environment? Ms. Kaaumoana: That is what she said. What I'm instructed by is the research I did yesterday with the NOAA folks who happened to be involved in a meeting yesterday about monk seals, so they were a little hard to reach. But I did send you folks some email stuff, and maybe it's back in your office, JoAnn. But Dr. Rachel Sprauge is attributing the toxoplasmosis to at least three deaths of monk seals on Kauai, and she is not saying that it came...that existed in nature, that it was already in the water. What she says is that it's from the feral cats. That it's carried by cats. That's what she says. Ms. Yukimura: Although it could also... Well, I don't know about here, but I know that what I read about in San Francisco is that the flushing of the cat litter... 37 Ms. Kaaumoana: It would be interesting to prove that here with our septic systems, you know, where we don't have sewage. Maybe for Kapa`a you could prove it, but for the north shore, I don't know. Ms. Yukimura: But there is the thought, at lease...I mean there was fairly significant series of deaths of seals in the San Francisco bay area? Ms. Kaaumoana: Yes. Ms. Yukimura: And because this parasite survives in water, then they were thinking that the quantity that is coming from urban areas... Ms. Kaaumoana: A lot of city kitties. Ms. Yukimura: Pardon me? Ms. Kaaumoana: A lot of city kitties. A lot of people who keep kitties inside and do flush down the sewer. Ms. Yukimura: Right. So either that, or the runoff...I guess off the land, like Kuulei was being concerned about in terms of salt pond and the runoff on the land could increase the intensity or the concentration of it? Ms. Kaaumoana: Sure, doesn't that make sense. Ms. Yukimura: Yeah, and the... and I guess the feces are the carrier. That is all I have. Thank you. Ms. Kaaumoana: Thank you. Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Any more questions for Makaala? Councilwoman Nakamura? Ms. Nakamura: Makaala, I just wanted to thank you for coming and presenting this point of view. Ms. Kaaumoana: You're welcome. Ms. Nakamura: Because I did have some conversations with DLNR staff, who could not be here, but expressed similar concerns and the interest in further dialogue around this issue, so thank you. Ms. Kaaumoana: You're welcome. Chair Furfaro: Thank you very much, Makaala. Ms. Kaaumoana: Aloha. Chair Furfaro: Is there anyone else who would like to offer testimony before I call the meeting back order? Okay. I'm going to call the meeting back order. You know, I have to tell you today's discussion for me really raised more dialogue on perhaps if we can't go to OED and the mayor's office and get a small grant to identify a facilitator where we can put the mayor's park people, the 38 Humane Society has agreed to help with facilitating, DLNR, fish and wildlife, the health department, the hotel and restaurants, and perhaps have some facilitated workshops away from a council agenda item, because I do want to point out to everyone here, when we pass a resolution, that resolution is only good for the term of the council, ad each new council finds itself needing to address the issue over and over. You know, I know it's on the radar screen, as I heard Makaala speak, but the perception of a resolution as if giving authority with not having any ordinance may actually find ourselves with a communication issue amongst or people in parks and recreation. But I don't want to give up on talking about this subject, because I have to tell you in my tenure at one hotel for 13 years, there was a good steward next door. That steward is in the audience today, and that steward went as far as briefing security officers, took a lot of travel upon themselves, but they were present and they were a good steward in making sure that the cat population around the resort stayed at a minimum. That there was half a dozen or nine animals that there were guests that reached out to them, pet them, and actually made part of their stay enjoyable, but because this effort was done by one steward, it was workable. Yet, at the same time, I have to tell you, I'm not so sure that the same enjoyment of this practice would find itself in our parks or in our cultural places that are as many local people refer to as places that are wahipana, that are special, that need nurturing. So I probably, if a vote is called on this today, I probably going to go silent because of the mentions I made here. But I will pursue the need for a workshop on a management plan. I mean, it's fine to talk about it here, but if we don't understand what the parameters are and it's only in a resolution, that resolution with the makeup of a new council, whether we're all back here or part of us are back here, the resolution is no longer enforced. It's only being able to be managed during the duration of the council that passed it who was elected. It's a policy statement. and a policy statement is very difficult for our people to interpret without having any enforcement guidelines and different viewpoints. So I just want to let you know where I'm at on perhaps seeking a grant from the mayor's office. Okay? Members? Any further discussion? Councilwoman Yukimura? Ms. Yukimura: Yes, Mr. Chair. I think that TNR can be a good tool with proper guidelines, for example, not more than six, and there is some manager that is accountable. And there was one more thing...but I think that has to be just a general resolution that doesn't state all of those guidelines is not responsible because TNR without those guidelines can be very problematic. And so...oh, permission by the landowner is the other one. So I would be in favor of a process that let's... and I think we're finding that this issue is a lot more complex than it looks on the surface. So I think it's worthwhile. There are so many good hearted people here that have been working, especially the feral cat group. Extraordinary lengths of time and energy, compassion, to find a system that works. And there are others that need to be around the table, as well. And we would hope that a community with that kind of approach and attitude of working together and sharing information and sharing ideas could maybe come up with something that could be really awell-rounded policy statement, or better yet, even a good plan by which to control the feral cat population on this island, which is a problem today and could be an even bigger problem if we don't have a good solution for it. Chair Furfaro: So I just want to clarify, you are supporting my concept of having a workshop that a management plan could be developed with some criteria? 39 Ms. Yukimura: should pursue. Chair Furfaro: Mr. Rapozo: make a motion to approve so should have done that initially. I think the possibility is something we Thank you. Councilmember Rapozo? I guess... I don't think we a motion right? Let me we can, now that the public testimony is over. We Councilmember Rapozo moved for approval of the resolution, seconded by Councilmember Yukimura. Chair Furfaro: You want the floor now? Mr. Rapozo: Sure. I will just say this resolution was never intended to direct the administration to do anything, it was never directed to the Humane Society or to Kauai ferals. This is really a...just a resolution, a policy statement from the council saying that TNR is a viable option. We do resolutions here all the time, and it could be about opposing a war or supporting the max 3R concept or zero-waste, but it's never tied to directive or parameters for the administration to go and make it work. This is simply saying if we don't do anything, the feral cat population increases. if we don't do anything, the feral cat program...I mean the feral cat population increases...if we don't do anything. We can talk about it. We can have consultants. We can have workshops. We can have all of that. All this resolution is saying that one of the options that the public has is to participate in TNR. Now there's definitely are some concerns, and I was going to try and address that with legislation, because I do agree that these colonies do not belong in certain areas. But they are here, they're behind the bowling alley, they're at Wal-Mart, they're at Salt Pond, they're here, and by no way was this resolution intended for people to go out and create colonies. That's not what this is. It's not let's go start a colony. No, no; we have a colony that's out of control and it's reproducing, it's having kittens. If we can intervene and interject and get them neutered/spayed, and if they are sick they're taken to the Humane Society and euthanized, we control the growth of the feral colonies that way, until we can come up with a much better plan. So I just want to make sure that the public understands the resolution was simply that, was... and I'm almost embarrassed to say I had never heard of TNR until I met with the Kauai ferals people, and when I did my research found that my gosh, I can't believe I didn't hear about it, because it's so popular throughout the country, and it does in fact reduce feral cat populations throughout the country. I don't have the scientific data here, but if you read the data that's from the municipalities that do have it, that in fact, it does work. So that is all this was. Obviously, I'll respect...I will be voting to support it, obviously. I also support the Chair's concept of having the further discussion, but I think the resolution simply says that TNR is a viable option, and hope that we can get this thing passed. Thank you. Chair Furfaro: Mr. Bynum then Mr. Chang. Mr. Bynum: I love democracy. I have learned so much in the last four or five weeks about feral cats, about toxoplasmosis. Very interesting stuff. You know? Toxoplasmosis, what I read is in anchovies, primarily, and perhaps feral 40 cats contribute to the problem. Could be. Not sure, but I want to put this in predict. The perspective for me is that feral cats are a problem on Kauai. They're a problem that's this big. Nobody other than the people that are here today are doing anything about it. DLNR doesn't have a program. They don't monitor it. It's a fact. It is happening. The individuals that are here today and the Kauai feral cats, I think, are doing an important service. You read the cards that the kids...that they brought today, it's heart-warming. I can see kids going home and saying is our cat neutered? We can't just drop off that cat. Can...how can we support the Humane Society? I know that these individuals are here today have intervened with well- meaning people who are trying to take care of the cats and doing it in a way that does exacerbate the problem, and they're not shy, they'll say hey let me teach you how to put your energies in a way that will really make a difference. The resolution as I'm going to propose an amendment, the resolved part says two things. The County of Kauai supports and encourages TNRM as a component of a humane approach to controlling Kauai's homeless feral cat population, and also be it resolved that the county encourages its citizens to spay and neuter their pets to prevent the birth of unwanted kittens. I think those are pretty laudable goals. I think that the people who testified here today made it clear that they understand the management component and that they are keeping records that show that the colonies that they are involved in have decreased in numbers. So to me I can support this with this amendment. It makes it clear that it's a component and that requires management and proper resources to be effective. But will it solve the feral cat population problem? No. I wish it would, but it won't. I don't believe that I've seen any evidence that says the efforts of the individuals of Feral Cats are going to lead to an increased problem with seabirds...or you know, I think that problem exists, again, because this is a problem that's this big and they are working on maybe some of the more highly visible places where this is occurring. So I can support this. I'm going to introduce an amendment just to do the clarification I think we all agreed on, and then we'll see if it has support. Mr. Rapozo: in writing? Is that your motion? Do you have that amendment Mr. Bynum: Do I have the amendment in writing? Move to amend as will be circulated. Mr. Rapozo: I will second it, so we can at least read it. Councilmember Bynum moved to amend the resolution as shown in the Floor Amendment attached hereto, seconded by Councilmember Rapozo. Ms. Yukimura: Let's just go for a deferral. Mr. Bynum: Well, let's vote on this amendment first. And if the amendment fails, then maybe it's just going to fail, we can receive. So while we're having that circulated, you know, I think the key thing I learned is that very well- intentioned people, at least the people that are involved in feral cats are not doing this thoughtlessly. They are doing it with a lot of thought and a lot of commitment and I think are helping educate the community in an important way. And look at what it's going to lead to-it may lead to a support of Chairman Furfaro's to have ongoing dialogue to see who is going to step up. Unfortunately DLNR is a really important agency that fulfills very few of its mandates because of lack of resources. 41 The only thing I would add to this is that the amendment would need to say, "TNRM." Mr. Rapozo: I don't know if you have to do that. I think it' clear. I think with your amendment, you're adding in that management component in the line I think is perfectly fine just like that, and I'm supporting your amendment. Chair Furfaro: So we have an amendment that has been introduced. We should have some discussion? Councilwoman Yukimura. Ms. Yukimura: Yes Mr. Chair, I don't have any objections to the amendment, but I would... If we were to vote finally on this, I would have a further amendment. But I don't want...because there is possibly a motion to defer, and I think that is the better solution at this point, I will save my amendments to after the reports come back, hopefully from an advisory group. Chair Furfaro: Any further discussion on the amendment as circulated? If not, I'm going to call for a... Mr. Chang, did you want to say something? Mr. Chang: From what I am hearing, Councilmember Bynum, I have no problem supporting this amendment, but I understand we want to introduce additional amendments, but we're going to need time, in which case we may ask for a deferral? Chair Furfaro: Yes, Mr. Bynum? Mr. Bynum: I would encourage us to vote on this and it will come back as draft 1 with these changes and if there are further changes, we can address them at the time. Chair Furfaro: Councilwoman Nakamura. Ms. Nakamura: Just to clarify that I will not be supporting this floor amendment and will be introducing a motion to defer... following this vote. Chair Furfaro: Councilwoman Yukimura, did you want to speak again? Ms. Yukimura: No, thank you. Mr. Rapozo: I just want to say I'm not going to be supporting a motion to defer. This has been deferred now I believe three times. I believe it's been six weeks. If in fact there is going to be substantive changes, if in fact you are going to be waiting for this task force or whatever to be put together, if you're going to be waiting for information, I would suggest just vote no, just receive it, and come back with a new resolution. Because it's just not worth the time and energy and the efforts of our staff, who has again got to continuously do this on an agenda and transcribe our notes and discussions. If in fact it's the feeling of this body that this is not sufficient, then just vote no, and then come back later with another resolution if in fact that's something... I will be working on legislation that's going to address a lot of the concerns, but I think to keep prolonging a simple resolution, if it's that 42 problematic, just not support it and pick it up at another time. That would be my suggestion. I think to defer it for the fourth time would be... it's just not a good thing to do anymore. Thank you. Chair Furfaro: Councilwoman? Ms. Yukimura: I could go either way. I just think that a motion to defer pending a workshop and a discussion won't be much staff work either, and it'll have... What? So either way. Chair Furfaro: Go right ahead, Mr. Rapozo? Mr. Rapozo: Ms. Yukimura, if you look in your binder here, we got so many things that's been deferred and deferred and deferred and never comes back, and like Mr. Chair said, these resolutions are only good for a year, but if in fact it's a workshop and a process that was described with DLNR, health department, community members, that is months .away. My point is that if we're going to do that, just kill it and come back with another one. I'm going to support the resolution. I'm going to support the amendment. I'm hoping we can get this out, but if not, I will obviously respect the decision of the body. But to just keep it in the folder, let's just vote no if you are not happy with it. That's just the way it works. Thank you. Chair Furfaro: Mr. Chang, then Nakamura, then Mr. Bynum. Mr. Chang: Okay, I'm going to try to wrap this up really quickly, because I think I got a little bit of a different perspective here. I'm believing that I'm in favor of supporting Councilmember Bynum's amendment. I would hope that we can follow-up with the Chair's recommendation to get a body together. And if I'm supporting the resolution, it's not that I don't want to or I don't think we should be adding any more amendments, but I kind of have to agree that by the time we get everybody together, I don't know how long that's going to take, but I want to just comment. I want to say that I think I have a little bit of a different perspective. I never liked cats. I did not like cats. I arrived on Kauai on August 30 of 1987 permanently. From that day on I moved into a home which was considered a colony, because the people... You move into a house where people feed cats, you don't know the next day that the cats don't know that the owner is not there. So from 1987 presently till today, I have had four cats, and I have adopted every single one of them. So I can tell you, I believe the difference between giving shots or vaccination to outdoor cats as opposed to indoor cats, you know obviously the outdoor ones have a little bit more opportunity for disease or what have you. But I want to thank the spay/neuter people, the ladies that were here, because I understand what you are doing,. what you are trying to do, I wish everybody would adopt a cat, because if you do have a cat, like man's best friend, dog, you know, a cat is the same, except less maintenance, in my opinion. And he still will... in my case "he," there is some in this audience that knows my cat very well that calls him a cat-dog, because does everything that a dog primarily would do. It was funny, I had a conversation with our Chairman Furfaro yesterday and he was shocked that my cat sleeps with me every night, but that is how close we are. So either side of where we're at, I think we all agree there is a problem out there. You know, at this point in time, right now, I would side with Councilmember Rapozo, because when I first saw the resolution, and I said, you know, Councilmember Rapozo, this is a very, very good resolution. Thank you for bringing it up. It might not be worded in the 43 perfect way, but I do believe that we need to move this and move it along. However, I don't believe that's going to stop us from having any workshop and any continuation and any opportunity to introduce other amendments or what we can find as far as fact-finding is concerned. So at this point in time, however the votes fall, I hope we do have an opportunity to get the people together, so we can better understand this. But I think at this point in time, right now I'm going to support the resolution. Chair Furfaro: Who did I recognize next? Was that you, Councilwoman? Ms. Nakamura: I think I mentioned earlier that I wasn't going to support the floor amendment and mainly it's because of the conversations that I had with some of the state department of land and natural resources staff located on Kauai. They raised concerns and both from the forestry and wildlife division and the aquatic resource division. These are environmental experts on our island, and the feedback that I got is that we don't know where the cat colonies are. So they would like to get more information so they can provide feedback. There are...it's a statewide problem and they are looking at statewide solutions. One of the things that they are looking at is a pilot study to look at some of the range of the cats and what the impacts are, where are they roaming? So they wanted to do a pilot study. Again, the concern of toxoplasmosis and this is from these resources saying these are concerns. So I would support the Chair's position, because when we're setting public policy, I think it's important to have all voices heard and I think it's important that the different voices are talking to each other and that we need to come up with a solution for Kauai, tailored to Kauai, whether it's saying these are places that is clearly inappropriate for a cat colony and here these areas are appropriate. These areas are... and what will it take to do that management piece and sustain it over time? I think that's a...we need to ask those questions if we're going to indeed support this type of policy. So I'm looking at it at what is the big picture, the goal here, and what are the big-picture impacts? And who is going to be doing what in order to carry out this plan? So I can go either way. I can vote to receive it or to defer it. I think in any event, if I do... if we do defer it, I believe we do need a series of facilitated meetings, a series of meetings, because this is not going to be solved overnight, among all of the stakeholders, and we need to give them the opportunity, with the facilitator, to help to clarify the issues, discuss potential solutions, and make recommendations back to the county council. And hopefully, there will be consensus built into the process so we will have at least a roadmap for how we proceed. Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Mr. Bynum? Mr. Bynum: Again, I appreciate all of the dialogue and I appreciate everything that Councilmember Nakamura just said and I agree with it. I think I spoke to some of the same individuals who are concerned about toxoplasmosis and are questioning what impact feral cats have on that. Again, for me it's about perspective. Everything we just talked about, getting a network together and...I don't think has anything to do with this resolution. It's all good things and we should do that. What this resolution is really about is are we going to support the efforts of the volunteers on Kauai that are providing...I think are helping to improve the circumstances, particularly through education. And do we want to say as a body please get your cat spayed and neutered? So I think this is a pretty simple, straightforward kind of thing. I have learned enough about the work 44 that these individuals are doing to know it's something that I'm willing to support. It doesn't mean I don't have concerns about these other issues and I don't think we should go there, but I think that's a separate thing. I don't see the linkage that strong. Having said all of that, I'm prepared to vote. I'm prepared to support a deferral, if people want more time. But if it's a deferral to... If your mind is made up, perhaps Mel is right and we should vote today and see what happens. Generally, I support Councilmembers who say I want more time to address this. Chair Furfaro: On that note, I am planning to call for the vote on the amendment. So we have all had time to speak twice on the amendment. We have a motion and a second to amend, and could I have the roll call vote taken? The motion to amend the resolution was then put, and carried by a vote of 4:2 (Councilmembers Nakamura and Furfaro voting no.) Chair Furfaro: So the amendment passes 4-2. Now we're to the main motion. Council vice-Chair Yukimura? Ms. Yukimura: Mr. Chair, I have to disagree with Councilmember Bynum that the process that you've proposed, Chair, is separate and not related to the resolution. I think this resolution, it doesn't say that this resolution supports Hawaii ferals. This resolution says we support TNR and we have... in all of this discussion, we haven't really found an accountable system of TNR. I mean we haven't said that Hawaii ferals is going to be the one in charge of TNR to ensure quality. We haven't said that they are not to be at public parks, which I think is one policy statement we need to consider with input from the parks. There is just too much loose ends and non-accountability in this general resolution. I think we're trying to find a good solution for our community, but it's not going to be this general resolution. And I'm willing to...I think this idea of bringing everybody to the table and looking for a really good solution and then putting it into a resolution is the better way to go. Otherwise, I don't think it's responsible. There are too many unanswered and potential problems with TNR as we presently know it, and there is nobody accountable really for it. Chair Furfaro: Any further discussion on the bill as amended? Mr. Bynum? Mr. Bynum: I will just...the resolution says we support TNR as a component of an approach when there is management. I have heard testimony that the people involved in this are doing a pretty good job on that management side. So as I said, if somebody makes a motion to defer and it's to discuss this further, I would support that. Chair Furfaro: Okay. If not I'm going to call for the vote. If you want to defer, you make the motion now. If you make a motion to defer and it's seconded, there is no further discussion, we vote on the deferral. Ms. Nakamura: I'm going to make a motion then to defer this resolution until a facilitated series of meetings among key stakeholders takes place to clarify issues, discuss potential solutions, and make recommendations back to the county council. 45 Chair Furfaro: Is there a second. Thank you Councilwoman Yukimura. Chair Furfaro: There has been a motion to defer with a second. There's no further discussion. May we call for a vote, please? All those in favor, say aye? The motion to defer the resolution as amended herein was then put, and failed with a vote of 3:3 (Councilmembers Bynum, Chang, and Rapozo voting no.) Chair Furfaro: Okay, we have 3-3. In this particular case when it is a tie, Mr. Deputy Clerk, it is then deferred? Mr. Rapozo: The motion fails, Mr. Chair. Chair Furfaro: Hold on, I'm listening to them. Let's do a roll call vote please. A roll call vote on the motion to defer was then put, and failed, with the following vote: FOR DEFERRAL: Nakamura, Yukimura, Furfaro TOTAL - 3, AGAINST DEFERRAL: Bynum, Chang, Rapozo TOTAL - 3, EXCUSED & NOT VOTING: Kuali`i TOTAL - 1. Chair Furfaro: In a draw, this is deferred. Ms. Yukimura: No. If the motion to defer... Mr. Rapozo: Point of order, Mr. Chair. Chair Furfaro: One moment, let's not have everybody speaking at the same time. Let's hear from the clerk's office first on his interpretation and then I will recognize both of you. Mr. Clerk, would you state your position on the outcome? It is deferred in your opinion? Okay. Councilwoman Yukimura, then we'll go to Mr. Rapozo, and then I will go to Mr. Bynum. Ms. Yukimura: Mr. Chair, I believe that if the motion to... if it's a 3-3, the motion to defer fails because it needs 4 votes. Mr. Rapozo: Correct. Ms. Yukimura: If we vote on the main motion and there is a 3-3 vote, then the issue is deferred in committee. Mr. Rapozo: Correct. Chair Furfaro: That is my interpretation as well. You have the floor now, Mr. Rapozo. Mr. Rapozo: No, Mr. Chair, I was going to say, if the motion to defer fails for a lack of majority, then it fails, and we go back to the main motion, 46 which is the motion to approve as amended. And I would ask if we have the county attorney here, we have the clerk's office, but I am positive that in order for the motion to defer to pass you need four votes. That didn't pass. Now we revert back to the main motion, which is the approval, and I would call for the question... on a roll call vote. Chair Furfaro: I understand, but I want to give the courtesy of all member, since we have a difficult understanding of the interpretation on a 3-3 tie on deferral, and I believe you and Council Vice-Chair Yukimura have the same interpretation. Mr. Bynum? Mr. Bynum: I agree with the interpretation about the rules, but it also gives me an opportunity to say that if it were atwo-week deferral, I would have voted yet, but the way it was stated was open-ended and would be months, maybe never, and that is why I voted no. Chair Furfaro: On that note I'm go to have a discussion. on the side with the county attorney. I happen to agree with you, Mr. Rapozo, that we needed the fourth vote on a pure deferral. But we'll take afive-minute recess. There being no objections, the Chair recessed the meeting at 3:40 p.m. The meeting was called back to order at 3:45 p.m., and proceeded as follows: Chair Furfaro: Let me summarize this for all, and you can reference item F in the voting categories within our rules, and it has to do with the fact that Councilmember Kuali`i is absent. In this rule, it basically...with an excused absence, if the votes are evenly divided, there is insufficient votes to pass, this bill will then automatically come back on the agenda for June 8th or 6th? June 8th, okay? So now we have pending on the table our business is the main motion as amended. We need to vote on that. That is an open item. Can I have a roll call vote, please. The motion to approve as amended was then put, and failed by the following vote: FOR APPROVAL: Bynum, Chang, Rapozo TOTAL - 3, AGAINST APPROVAL: Nakamura, Yukimura, Furfaro TOTAL - 3, EXCUSED & NOT VOTING: Kuali`i TOTAL - 1. Chair Furfaro: Now it comes back in two weeks. It'll come back in two weeks. For the purpose of those in the audience, as I gave a brief overview, do you all understand, it will come back, and this is driven by the rule where Councilmember Kuali`i was absent. This will come back, and I believe our rules also stipulate it's the first item on the agenda? Am I correct? Yes. And it will be the first order of business in two weeks. I also want to say to the members, I'm still committed to having a workshop on the management plan, because I think with a resolution with not framing all of the other...I think it was Councilmember Yukimura and Nakamura that implied having all the stakeholders be able to participate, there might be other amendments interested in being submitted. So for today's business, we're actually putting this on the agenda in two weeks. Thank you. Chair Furfaro: We had testimony earlier from the public on the rules, and since we've taken that dialogue, I'm going to turn over this meeting to the 47 Chairperson of that committee and ask her to run us through the rules as has been submitted from the subcommittee, as well as the dialogue from two weeks ago. Vice Chair Yukimura, the floor is yours. CR-COW 2011-19 on COW 2011-06 Communication (04/21/2011) from Vice Chair Yukimura, requesting the Committee's consideration of the proposed revisions to the rules of the Council of the County of Kauai For the Organization of Committees and the Transaction of Business, as recommended by the Rules Sub-Committee, and other amendments to the rules. (Approved recommendations in totality, with resolution to follow at the 6/15/2011 Council Meeting, as reviewed by the County Attorney) (Note: The Committee was in recess from 5:49 p.m. to 6:11 p.m. during discussion on COW 2011-06.) Minutes of the March 30, 2011 Committee of the Whole Meeting Minutes of the May 11, 2011 Committee of the Whole Meeting Minutes of the May 18, 2011 Special Committee of the Whole Meeting Upon motion duly made by Councilmember Rapozo, seconded by Councilmember Bynum, and unanimously carried, the Minutes of the March 30, 2011 and May 11, 2011 Committee of the Whole Meetings and the May 18, 2011 Special Committee of the Whole Meeting were approved. There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 6:02 p.m. submitted, Aida Ok,~saki Leis ive Services Aide APPROVED at the Committee Meeting held on June 29, 2011: 48 (May 25, 2011) FLOOR AMENDMENT INTRODUCED BY: TIM BYNUM, COUNCILMEMBER RESOLUTION NO. 2011-51 (RESOLUTION SUPPORTING THE TRAPPING, NEUTERING AND RETURN METHOD OF CONTROLLING KAUA`I'S HOMELESS AND FERAL CAT POPULATION) 1) Amend the 10th WHEREAS paragraph, to read as follows: "WHEREAS, the County has observed that many jurisdictions around the world have adopted, as a component of a humane [and proven method of] approach to population control for homeless and feral cats, a program known as Trap, Neuter and Return, or "TNR"[;], provided the resources and management are adequately provided; now, therefore," 2) Amend the BE IT RESOLVED paragraph, to read as follows: "BE IT RESOLVED BY THE COUNCIL OF THE COUNTY OF KAUAI, STATE OF HAWAII, that the County of Kauai supports and encourages TNR as a component of a humane [method of] approach to controlling Kaua`i's homeless and feral cat population." Material to be repealed is bracketed. New resolution material is underscored. (V:\CS OFFICE FILES\AMENDMENTS\2010-12 term\FA Reso on Feral Cats - TB - 5-25-11.doc)