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HomeMy WebLinkAbout03/16/2011 PUBLIC SAFETY & ENVIRONMENTAL SERVICES COMMITTEE Committee MeetingMINUTES PUBLIC SAFETY & ENVIRONMENTAL SERVICES COMMITTEE March 16, 2011 A meeting of the Public Safety & Environmental Services Committee of the Council of the County of Kauai, State of Hawaii, was called to order by Councilmember Mel Rapozo, Chair, at the Council Chambers, 3371-A Wilcox Road, Lihu`e, Kauai, on Wednesday March 16, 2011, at 10:45 a.m., after which the following members answered the call of the roll: Honorable Mel Rapozo Honorable Dickie Chang Honorable Tim Bynum Honorable Derek S.K. Kawakami Honorable JoAnn A. Yukimura Honorable Nadine K. Nakamura, Ex-Officio Member Honorable Jay Furfaro, Ex-Officio Member Minutes of the March 2, 2011 Public Safety & Environmental Services Committee. Upon motion duly made by Councilmember Kawakami, and seconded by Councilmember Bynum, and unanimously carried, minutes of the March 2, 2011 Public Safety & Environmental Services Committee was approved. There being no objections, the Chair recessed the meeting at 10:46a.m. The meeting was called back to order at 11:04 a.m., and proceeded on its agenda item as follows: Bill No. 2400 A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE AMENDING ARTICLE 19, CHAPTER 22, KAUAI COUNTY CODE 1987, AS AMENDED, RELATING TO PLASTIC BAG REDUCTION (This item was deferred) MEL RAPOZO: Public Safety & Environmental Services Committee is now called back to order. Again, Council Member Kawakami is recused from this item. So could we have bill 2400 read, please. Councilmember Kawakami was noted as recused from Bill No. 2400. Laurie Chow, Senior Clerk Typist: Bill No. 2400 a bill for an ordinance amending article 19, Chapter 22, Kauai County Code 1987, as amending, relating to the plastic bag reduction. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you very much and let me start off suspending the rules and we will have public testimony up front. Anyone in the audience wishing to testify in this matter? 1 There being no objections, the rules were suspended. Mr. Rapozo: I'm sorry I didn't realize we had a sign in sheet I apologize. Can we have the first speaker please? Ms. Chow: Pat Gegan. PAT GEGAN: Thank you Committee Chair and Council members for accepting my testimony today. Pat Gegan, regarding bill 2400 I personally do not believe that the cross-contamination is as significant as a health threat portrayed by some of the testimony put forth. There are no known cases of sickness caused directly from this scenario and I believe that that is what this bill is based on is the public health concerns. So in my mind that kind of negates it. Currently many food service containers made with non-toxic materials are being used and have been shown to leach directly into foods they are in contact with, I gave examples of those before with BPA, the plastic and styrene and those types of issues. My concern is I think it would make much more sense to go after those things that are directly in contact with our foods than worrying about across- contamination issue that has no evidence of ever occurring and making anybody sick. Many alternative examples of containers, some that may be better at containing foods than those currently being used have been brought forward and shown to the council that are being used by restaurants and food service vendors on the island today. Granted they are not perfect, some of them are going to leak there is no doubt about it. This is one that the restaurants I went to they said they liked the best and it overlaps, it's a pretty sound container and this would take any of our food service vendors food out there and they do make larger ones for larger portions. In order for us to continue the lifestyle that we live, we are going to make some changes going forward. We cannot continue as we are. In my mind we have alternatives that can be utilized to reduce this potential risk of cross-contamination without .changing the bag bill ordinance as it exist today. Council members I humbly ask you not to weaken this ordinance as it exists today. While it's not a perfect ordinance it's a start to help the residents of Kauai begin making some of the behavioral changes necessary for us to protect our beautiful island. We are currently averaging over $4 a gallon for gasoline, our electrical costs are reflecting this and will continue to do so in the future. There are concerns regarding the cost of public works and our waste .cost on the island. I do not anticipate these costs going down if we continue business as usual. We need to make some changes and they have to be big changes, big changes in order to preserve our lifestyle. If we don't make these changes, life in the future for our children, our grandchildren and their children will not have many of the comforts and conveniences that we experience today. The plastic bag reduction ordinance hits the first important of the three R's. 2 Reduce.. We have to reduce our consumption, we have to reduce our waste and that is the only way we will get these costs under control and will be able to sustain ourselves on this beautiful island. The existing bag ordinance is a small step in beginning this process that I believe needs to greatly expand. If we can't keep this ordinance in place and work around the inconveniences that we're experiencing, I'm very concerned about our future. This is a small step. My final statement, please do not pass bill 2400 as it weakens the progress that is being made towards improving our future. Thank you very much. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you Pat. Any questions for Pat? If not, I have a question Pat? Do you feel that the bill as it stands today is reducing the plastic that is being used? Pat Gegan: I believe, yes I believe it is reducing the plastic that is being used. It is not as significant as I would like it to see though. Mr. Rapozo: Okay, thank you. Next speaker please. Ms. Chow: Next speaker is David Hong. David Hong: Good morning, my name is David Hong, Island Plastic Bags. I have .submitted written testimony previously regarding our tapioca based bag. Today I submitted... Mr. Chang: Mr. Hong excuse me, can you put the mic a little closer. Mr. Hong: Today I have submitted testimony so I wouldn't waste your time regarding a new product. It's called allopathic plastic bag, it's compostable, it's degradable, it passed PPI, it has all the right things and it can be made thinner than the tapioca bag. I have brought samples for the tapioca bag there right over there. This could be made thinner, so therefore, you have more cost-savings. This is about a third of the paper and this is less than that. So we can make other things, such as produce rolls, all of those items that you exempt previously into compostable biodegradable bags. My problem is that all we need to do is delete the definition, part of the definition where it says polymers from fossil fuels and that will be it and our products would qualify and you would get savings, the product works and it's water resistant, it does the job of (inaudible) and it's compostable and it's biodegradable. Now my problem is that we're blocking science. This is new things, this aliphatic bag was not here six months ago. This is brand new and this has just developed and is an ISO Company so it's a certified company that's doing business. That's my basic concern is that we're blocking new science because of a term that was used 20, 25 years ago "polymers from fossil fuels," is a term that started about 25 years ago. If we could just eliminate that, we could allow 3 all these new products to come in and solve some of your problems. A lot of the problems is the cost of paper and this would be less than a third, easily and we can do a lot of different things and even exempt items that you have right now, such as the produce rolls, merchandise bags, that can be made into biodegradable and compostable products. Again, no. 6 on my list was my biggest concern too is that we need to hire people with environmental science degrees. I would like to see that, I have a candidate in mind. He is working as a waiter, there's no jobs for this guy and if we can pass this bill we can work on things like polystyrene foam and replace those things and get everything to be greener. That's my story. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you very much. Right on time. sir. Is this your first time testifying here? Mr. Hong: Yes. Mr. Rapozo: Unbelievable. Okay, any questions for Mr. Hong? Mr. Hong: I've submitted all the testing. Mr. Rapozo: Yes we did receive your testimony and we appreciate it that when it comes in writing it makes it so much easier. Go ahead Council member Nakamura? NADINE NAKAMURA: I'm sorry I'm not a member of the committee. Mr. Rapozo: That's fine. Mr. Nakamura: Mr. Hong, can I ask you one question for clarification to understand your recommendation. Is it to, you're looking at the original bill and your recommendation is that under the definition of "biodegradable bag," that you would like to delete one line... Can you restate your recommendation? Mr. Hong: On the bill itself it says 1 and 2 and if you delete 1, the rest will work because it biodegrades faster than paper. Ms. Nakamura: So you want to just delete the word the "biodegradable bag" means a bag that contains no polymers derived from fossil fuels." Mr. Hong: That's it, that's all. 4 Ms. Nakamura: And then continue on that is indented for single use and will decompose in a natural setting in a rate comparable to other biodegradable such as paper, leaves and food waste? Mr. Hong: Right. Ms. Nakamura: Okay, thank you. Mr. Hong: That will do it, that's all we need to do is get rid of that old phrase and we can let the new science come in. There are a lot more products coming about, and I would like to see this open up, I am an old dog and I'm going to retire in a couple of years and I would like to see new people come in, people with degrees and people who know what they are doing and have studied this and work on there's things like foam, polystyrene and other issues. Mr. Rapozo: Mr. Hong I have to stop you there. You answered the question and we have to move on. Any other questions? Councilmember Yukimura? Ms. Yukimura: Yes. Thank you. So you say it's certified biodegradable and compostable, has a pending bBPI certified by so please help educate me what "bpi" is. Mr. Hong: BPI is Biodegradable Products Institute. They are essentially are the governing body for commercial compostable stuff. BPI, here's a whole sheet on that I can give you. Composting facilities essentially. Ms. Yukimura: So it breaks down back into its organic elements and doesn't have any residual plastic? Mr. Hong: No it's not toxic, not at all. It's on... this bag will break down completely. There is no PE in it. There is a test here on the second page of this that shows there is no polyethylene inside of it. Ms. Yukimura: How much does it cost? Mr. Hong: This would be about 25% of the paper price, roughly. I'm guessing. It depends on what kind of paper they are using or how thick. Ms. Yukimura: Well how much does it cost in pure monetary terms? Mr. Hong: Let's say a bag about $0.06 a bag. Right now if you go to let's say Hopaco or somebody like that it would be $0.20 a bag or for one of 5 their paper bags. Now the bigger stores will get it for less obviously they're buying container loads because they are buying container loads. Let's say Big Save comes. in and they want a container, sure, it's going to be $0.05. It's going to be less. Ms. Yukimura: And it does contain oil? Mr. Hong: No it does could contain oil? This is from natural gas. Ms. Yukimura: Well;, natural gas is like oil, it's a fossil fuel. Mr. Hong: That's the issue but what it does is when this is coming out of the ground it captures CO2 which otherwise would be wasted and warm the earth. The CO2 is used, 50% of CO2 is used to make the bag and the other 50% is aliphatic plastic which is a naturally occurring polymers so it's not bombarded, it doesn't go into a reactor and that is how you make this bag. It's new science. Ms. Yukimura: Okay so 50% is made from carbon dioxide? Mr. Hong: Carbon dioxide. Ms. Yukimura: And,50% is made from... Mr. Hong: Aliphatic plastic, it's stated here it's all here. I tried to write everything down so we wouldn't have to spend all our time going over. The science will be provided for you, I can give you more breakdowns. I have computer files of all of this stuff. Like I said, this is all brand new. Six months ago we would never have this, this just came out recently and that's my issue is that more things are going to be coming out and there may be things better than what I have. There is corn based products, there's a lot of different products that are coming out that can work, but some of this stuff is coming out of the ground, like this which is not harmful. We just have to get rid of the phrase, that's all I'm asking. Ms. Yukimura: Get rid of what? Mr. Hong: Get'rid of that phrase, that's all I'm asking Ms. Yukimura: Oh okay. Mr. Hong: That's all. we need to do because that's such a general phrase, and it means "anything out of the ground." Ms. Yukimura: Okay, thank you very much. 6 Mr. Rapozo: Thank you, any other questions? Go ahead. Ms. Nakamura: Mr. Hong, I have one more question. One of the concerns that I had with the amendment is the definition of "biodegradable bags" is very broad. So in looking at the different standards, industry standards, for biodegradable bags and one that has been brought to my attention was the ASTMd6400 as one standard, but in further research it look like that those bags will compost but it must be in a commercial composting facility, which we do not have on Kauai. So you have mentioned in an email to staff that there is another standard, astmd5511 that is a biodegradable bag that composts in landfills, which would be more appropriate to the facility we have on Kauai. Mr. Hong: Absolutely. Ms. Nakamura: So I would like to find out more about what bags fall under this category? Are they available? Are they on the market? Or is it still preliminary or exploratory? Mr. Hong: As far as I know, we are the only people that passed this particular test ASTM5511 and ASTM5247-92 which validates the materials being eaten by microbial. So that's the two tests that we're looking at because the 6400 just explains that it will break down in a composting facility, a commercial composting facility. The other two tests basically would tell you that it's breaking down in a landfill, and the microbials are eating it. That is the two tests I would recommend well that our scientists have recommend that we look at. Ms. Nakamura: Now are these bags available on the market? Mr. Hong: We are selling them on Oahu and on Kona right now. Ms. Nakamura: Ok thank you. And can I ask how much these bags are? Mr. Hong: They are roughly about a penny more than... I will give you an answer, I wrote it down somewhere. For shopping bags it's $0.15, for a grocery bag, its $0.08, for take-out for (inaudible) those take out. for the L&L or whatever they are about $0.06. Ms. Nakamura: And the reason why I'm looking at this is .because the current definition of "biodegradable bags" in the existing bill, there is really no such bag that exists. That is why I was trying to see if we could find a standard that would work for Kauai. Thank you. Mr. Rapozo: Any other questions? I have a question, and just let me know if you cannot answer it, because I'm dying to find out. How much oil i does it take to produce a plastic bag? I know the big concern is fossil fuels, but how much oiUfossil fuels in relation to how much fossil fuel is used to create a paper bag? When you think about the logging industry, the trees, trucks, cutting and saws and all of that oil, I'm trying to figure out, because I know the big concern here and again Mr. Gegan disagrees with the health issue, the health concern and I disagree with that. I think there is a definite concern for health and that the intent of this bill. It has nothing to do with the economics of the bag or the restaurant or whatever. It's really to provide a safe medium where we can transport food at the least impact to the environment. But I keep hearing fossil fuels, but how much oil? I have read .some places and again the Internet could be false and I'm not a scientist and I haven't done the research but... Mr. Hong: Are you talking about the. polyethylene bags, the regular bags? Mr. Rapozo: Correct. Mr. Hong: Okay. Mr. Rapozo: Well or any the one that the minimum polymer biodegradable/compostable bags. You're saying yours doesn't use any, but it does use natural gas, which is still a fossil fuel. Mr. Hong: Right, right. Mr. Rapozo: I mean oil, when you're talking about polymer bags. Mr. Hong: I gave you the handout about paper. Mr. Rapozo: Okay I just got that this morning and didn't get a chance to read it. Mr. Hong: It's in the bag. Mr. Rapozo: There's a comparison of paper versus plastic? Mr. Hong: It talks about the consumption of fossil fuels to make the product. Mr. Rapozo: Is it less than paper? Mr. Hong: Oh, yeah. Mr. Rapozo: Okay. s Mr. Hong: No, I'm saying it's way less than paper. Mr. Rapozo: I understand that but you have an interest in this. Mr. Hong: Let's say ten percent. Mr. Rapozo: You have an interest and I mean no disrespect but you are obviously a vendor of a plastic product. Mr. Hong: This is a third party and this is a fair assessment. Mr. Rapozo: I appreciate that. Mr. Hong: Paper is a good thing. Mr. Rapozo: Well that's what I've read and I just wanted to hear it from someone that is in that industry. Mr. Hong: It's not perfect, it's not a perfect product and there are costs associated with that. What happens in your bill is that you asked for 40% post-consumer, now that post consumer that means you have. This paper has to be recycled and what do you do with the recycled paper? You have to sanitize it. You will pollute the waterways and do a lot of bad things and I mean you have to do that. Mr. Rapozo: And I think that's the message that has been lost in this and the fact we went to paper doesn't help the environment any, it creates more energy to create a paper bag, it creates more fossil fuels to create a paper bag and if you look at the total picture, I don't know that we went the right direction and I'm trying to figure out the best possible way to address the public health concern as well as the environment. bill. Mr. Hong: Well I'm trying I'm trying to meet the intent of the Mr. Rapozo: And I appreciate that. Thank you. Mr. Hong: And that's the green issue here. Mr. Rapozo: Council member Yukimura? Yes, I'm sorry, I don't have that one paper... Mr. Hong: This one? 9 Ms. Yukimura: Yes and I'm looking in my bag. 1VIr. Hong: I'm sorry, I must not have... Mr. Furfaro: You can come by and get a copy of that. Mr. Hong: I have a couple of copies of this. Ms. Yukimura: Thank you, we'll make copies of it thanks very much. Mr. Hong: Like I said, I looked for a fair assessment. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Anyone else with questions for Mr. Hong? If not, thank you very much, sir. Mr. Hong: Thank you. Mr. Rapozo: Next speaker, please. Ms. Chow: Don Heacock. Mr. Rapozo: And who is the next one after that? Is that it? Okay. Don Heacock: Mr. Chairman, Council members, first I want to absolutely agree with Pat Gegan. From what I have read about health issues, that is a red herring. We have to go beyond our health and it is what is being carried in these bags that is actually killing most of our people, not the bags themselves and I know Pat said this is a little step and I think it was Neil Armstrong who said when he stepped on the man, "it's one step for man and one step for mankind." This is a little step to make. This bag is 21 years old I have had. I have its twin, it's in my car, I carry one in the car and one in the kitchen, hanging on the refrigerator door. If we can't make this decision now, when I have pulled these out in autopsies, out of turtles' stomachs and for those who don't get under the water very often, I have seen these when they fall in the water. By the way, whether it's non-biodegradable or degradable, it doesn't happen the minute it hits the water. It will still kill corals when it gets wrapped around the little .coral head and it can't breathe and it basically suffocates. So this issue really about reducing what we use we are not a throw-away society anymore and we really have to change the way we think and the way we act. It takes a person about a month or two to develop a new habit and we are creatures of habit and this plastic bag ban hasn't been in effect one month 10 yet so I would encourage you to kill bill 2400. If we can't make .this little step towards sustainability on the Island of Kauai, we should just throw everything in the street, because it's ridiculous. Will Rogers in closing once said, "there is always an answer that is easy and takes no thought and is dead wrong." This bill 2400 fits that description, It's not Pono. Thank you. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Any questions for Mr. Heacock? Hang on ma`am we still have a speaker on the table. Any questions for Don? No. Thank you very much. Ma`am, I see you are very anxious. Linda Harmon: Well I don't have a card. Mr. Rapozo: That's fine. The registered speakers are done so it's your turn. They just need you to state your name before you... Linda Harmon: Thank you Mel. My name is Linda Harmon, and I think I emailed you with a comment. It seems it's a matter of education, a matter of educating the public so they understand what's at stake here. If we continue using the plastics for transporting hot foods in particular, the chemicals, they leach .into the food as Pat said. We have a real problem with cancers and it's because of what is in our food and if people were educated about the damage that they are doing to themselves by using plastic, especially with hot foods, they could change their habit by bringing pyrex or something with them when they come to the restaurant to eat and they can just put what leftovers they have in the pyrex or something other than plastic. If they knew they were doing it for the future of the planet and for their children, they would do it gladly. Anyway, that is my point. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Any questions for Linda? If not, thank you very much Linda. We appreciate your testimony. Anyone else wishing to testify? Mr. Sykos: For the record my name is Lonnie Sykos. Good morning and thank you for holding this hearing. I've been watching this issue and just as a matter of civics and as a member of the public, I'm confused. I'm not sure why it is that the county enacted this ordinance in the first place, given that the original arguments as I understand them are now under debate. I used to take raw coconut and turn it into candy and you know that legal business and so I dealt with the health department about packaging. If the companies that are selling food to go, if their food is leaking out of the packaging that's directly a health department issue and the proper civic solution is for the public to call the health department and complain. The health department will hopefully do their job and they'll either change their packaging or get shut down. Just like all other areas of selling products, your products have to do what you claim they do. You can't put food in to-go packaging and expecting the foods going to leak out, that's .not legal, its consumer fraud and it's a health department violation. 11 This whole issue of food leaking out of the packaging is for us as the County is nonsense. The businesses should not be using packaging that the food leaks from period. I'm 56 years old and I can distinctly remember in 4th grade that my favorite food on the planet was won ton soup and living in northern California that was the only take-out that there was because my parents cooked Italian and so you could go buy won ton soup and bring home enough for a family of four without spilling a drop, in 1964 and before that, but that's when I was in 4th grade and I distinctly remember how good it was. This whole issue about food shouldn't be our problem. This is the people vending the food's problem. Secondly, it appears that paper bags use tremendously more energy than plastic bags for their creation, the recycling, I have been around paper pulp mills and they are a horror story. But paper bags don't kill the wild life and they actually do break down rapidly in the water which none of the plastic products will do. And so if the problem is the plastic bags blowing into the ocean and that is something that we do need to address. I'm a Waterman and most of my adultlife since they started using these bags they are all over the ocean everywhere in the world, creating the same problems. Mr. Rapozo: Lonnie I'm sorry your three minutes are up. Did you want to wrap it up in a minute? Mr. Saikos: Yes I will just wrap it up real quick. Nadine's observation about finding a bag that will break down inside the landfill is what's germane, but what is even more germane is how rapidly it will break up when it goes into the ocean. So if you can get a bag that breaks down under both ultraviolet and the salt water then you have something that won't collect on the reef but once it goes in the water it's a death threat until it blows out into the deep sea and becomes a threat for things in the deep sea versus our coastal regions. That is the key to find a plastic bag, one that breaks down in the seawater rapidly. Thank you very much. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you very much. Any questions for Lonnie? If not thank you very much. Mr. Chang: I got a question. Mr. Rapozo: Oh I'm sorry, go ahead Dickie. Mr. Chang: Thanks Lonnie for your testimony. Being that you can vividly remember the won ton soup in 1964, can you describe to us what container that won ton soup came in. Mr. Sykos: All of the take out containers were fold up hard paper boxes with some kind of a glossy coating on it. So the unique thing about the soup container was I guess when they took it out of the case and when they folded it 12 up it was like the corners were like accordion. And so the words was no seam in the whole thing, it was not possible for it to leak because there was no seam whereas the fried rice or sweet and sour or whatever came in a box with a seam. If the food had leaked it would have been like a big event and I don't ever remember the food leaking. Mr. Chang: I want to just say that I think I'm an authority on Chinese food. So I understand we all know that box, it's .like a Hamura-style box, I think Mr. Taylor brought that box and you fold it and you get that little metal wire deal. Or in many cases you get the Styrofoam with the lid that we all know the kind of like the take-out for your soups and what have you. Mr. Sykos: They hadn't invented Styrofoam back then. Mr. Chang: Okay well that was 1964 and I was like five. But anyway what I would like to say is in defense, you mentioned the local plate lunches, that it's their fault that it leaks. I have mentioned on the record that I'm a connoisseur of local plate lunches and I go out and eat lunch and dinner and I don't think it's fair to blame any restaurant like, for example, shoyu chicken and beef stew, roast pork as I mentioned and extra gravy on the rice that's the local way of eating. Many restaurants, I would like to say are very value-oriented and they want to give good portions, they want to give really you know like if you order a lau lau, some people give nice fat lau lau, so that's going to pop. So we understand that whole gravy thing but I wanted to make it clear for the record that we're learning so much stuff right now. In fact, we're learning more about the concerns, in my opinion, now the second time around than we ever did the first time around. One of the things that I looked at in the minutes is we got all this time to educate and I don't believe we were fairly educated so what I would like to say is on behalf of those that serve and trying to run a business I don't think we can blame them for being generous or something is spilling, because we're just realizing that the paper bag is not conducive to the spillage and that's what I wanted to say. Mr. Sykos: If I could make an observation about what you said about my remarks? When I moved to Hawaii I was 19 and you got one of those compartment plates with a piece of tin foil at the lunch wagons, which I survived on, because I was poor. Then the next level up some. point in the future was that they went to the clamshell boxes and my observation is they went to the clamshell boxes probably in the late 70s or early '80s or something. Well now it's time to go with what's new in the package industry,. I mean .we're on Kaua`I, and we're on Kauai, blessedly in some ways we're at the end of the earth. But the truth of the matter is if you went to Europe, they would be laughing about this argument. They went through this twenty, thirty years ago so the packaging is out there and it's actually the industry of re-educating itself as much as the public. The industry needs to understand there's other packaging out there. Find it. 13 Mr. Rapozo: Thank you, and I will stop there. Any other questions? Thank you Lonnie. Mr. Sykos: Thank you very much. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Anyone else that wants to speak for the first time? If not, second round? Hang on, Ken you want to speak? Ken Taylor: Chair, Members of the council, my name is Ken Taylor. I am opposed to this amendment. At the last hearing I passed out a number of documents for you and a couple of them are lists of products that was available that is usable and would not be spilling gravy on carry out bags. Also there were several articles I hope you read them and I included them because there are many other ways of contaminating foods and food establishments besides the potential of a little gravy spill. Which are even much, much worse than anything that a little gravy would bring forth. Today I hope you received a pass out that I gave you titled the history of the aprons and I'm not going to read it, but it .basically goes into what grandma used her apron for. The last sentence says, "I never caught anything from an apron." As the document says, there are a lot of young people today that probably don't know what a apron was but I think it's really important that we move forward and the issue raised of comparing the cost. of plastic to paper you know it's unfortunate that our bill doesn't put a price tag on paper bags along with eliminating the plastic bag, because the whole intent whereas to get people used to bringing their bags to the market. In Los Angeles, I understand just recently in their bag bill, they put I believe, $0.25 on a paper bag. So the fact that we haven't done that means that you folks need to step up to the plate and get that in place. My feeling is that instead of moving forward with the existing amendment, throw this amendment out and go back and amend the original document to be more stringent than what it currently is, and that will be a step in the right direction. A step in the right direction for the children and children of their children in the future. I certainly agree with comments earlier from Pat and Don and others that oppose this amendment. So I hope that you do the right thing for the young people, if nobody else. Thank you. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you Ken. Any questions for Ken? Thank you very much. Anyone else want to speak? Mr. Hong. Mr. Hong: I just wanted to make a .comment. There was a comment about saltwater breaking down our bags. Our bags will break down in saltwater, not a problem, our bags will break down faster in saltwater. I will get the test for you and pull that out. Second thing is our bags are non-toxic. If the fish eats 14 it, we're trying to commission a test to see what happens after they eat the bag, and see what the tests cost $50,000.00, we're trying to negotiate that at the University of Hawaii how to see how it affects it. It breaks down, the fish can eat it, and it's non-toxic. There were a couple of articles about the stomach of the fish and what is inside of it and we don't have those answers yet to be truthful. The other thing is that you mentioned adding $0.25-$0.50 to a bag in different cities. All of those didn't pass, all those. bills did not pass. Even Seattle turned it down. California turned down the plastic ban. That is my only my comment, I just wanted to update you. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. You have a question? Ms. Yukimura: Yes. Isn't it true that the monetary amount per bag tax did pass in Washington, D.C.? Mr. Hong: I'm Washington, D.C.? I'm not sure, I didn't hear that one. Ms. Yukimura: In fact it's being used as a model legislation because the bag use dropped dramatically when they did that. Mr. Hong: Truthly, I don't know about Washington, D.C. I haven't heard about that. Ms. Yukimura: I think you can google it and find it. Mr. Hong: Okay I will. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you, Any other questions? Thank you very much. Mr. Hong: Thank you. Mr. Rapozo: Pat did you want to come back up? Pat Gegan: Thank you, Pat Gegan again for the record. Council member Rapozo I would like to thank you for redirecting the discussion and making sure it is focused on the concerns that were brought up and not the monetary aspects of it. If we looked at the monetary aspects of everything that's been put in place to help make our lives safer, like seatbelts, airbags we would not have those things in place if the industry won. So I thank you very much for doing that. Just a couple of comments, I would love to see the bill tightened as Mr. Taylor has mentioned, I would love to see some of Mr. Hong,s materials put in place for some of our meets and the things that we are still allowing and that would be a better option than going with the plastic that we have today. I also want to plastic that we 15 reiterate what Mr. Taylor also said, the intent of the bill was not to get people to go from plastic to paper. The intent of the bill was to get people into the habit of bringing their own bag to reduce the total amount of waste that is created. Today if I use a biodegradable bag and put it in the garbage, it is still waste, it is taking up landfill space, it is creating off gassing in the landfill while it is decomposing and there are still issues with it. We are looking at a reduction ordinance here. That's what the ordinance was so I ask you to stick to your guns and focus on the reduction aspects of the ordinance that was put in place. Thank you very much. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Mr. Bynum. Mr. Bynum: Thanks Pat and thank you everybody for your testimony today. I just want to point out two things. One is the original draft bill that I wrote had a $0.15 fee for any disposable bag in consultation with the attorneys, a, we're getting into a taxation issue that complicated the bill. Our current bill makes it clear that retailers can choose to charge for any disposable bag and I want to underscore that the intent of the bill is to promote the reuse of bags and reduce waste to begin with. The intent also was to not allow bags that contained polymers and that is a pretty dated kind of thing, but the idea is not to use fossil fuels. When I first started contemplating this bill, I made a personal commitment that I wasn't going to take any disposable bag out of a retail store. It wasn't easy. I acknowledge that those bags are convenient. So the... yeah that's it. The purpose is when people say paper is a problem, absolutely. So don't use it, you know, the motivation is. Mr. Rapozo: Do you have a question for him? Mr. Bynum: I did, but I lost it. Mr. Rapozo: Okay, well we can save that for when we have the discussion on the floor. If no more questions, thank you, Pat. Anyone else? I went to get through the public testimony that's why and we can have our dialogue and deliberation when we get back in session. Anybody else? Mr. Sykos: For .the record, Lonnie Sykos. The issue of reducing the amount of bags that leave retail establishments, most of the rest of the world never gave bags away. So the public education that needs to occur is that like the rest of the world, we need to carry these bags with us everywhere that we go. The inherent problem of trying to remember to take the bag into the store when you run into the store is the problem of trying to remember to take the bag into the store with you and so what everyone else in the world does, usually they are mesh bag and they fit in your purse, fit in your pocket, fit in your back pocket in your jeans and they just carry it with them, like they carry their driver's licenses or money. So that public re-education about the value of having a bag to take advantage of the 16 things that you run into in life, right? If you have a bag, you might stop and buy some mangos that you wouldn't otherwise do. We need to get educated to carry the bags around with us all the time. And then this issue of the convenience of carrying a bag out of the store goes away, because you don't need that convenience and you can take the bag with you. Thank you. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Any questions for Lonnie? If not, thank you very much. Anyone else? If not, I will call the meeting back to order. The meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as follows: Mr. Rapozo: I must apologize, I did not call for a motion. Could I have a motion to approve? My intention is that I believe there has been a request to defer, because some information that is being needed to be obtained. So if we could have the motion to have the discussion and then if'the motion to defer occurs, that is fine. Mr. Chang: Motion to approve. Ms. Yukimura: Second for discussion purposes. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Can we have a discussion now, any discussion? Mr. Bynum: I have a question? What is the information we're trying to get before we can move on this? Mr. Rapozo: Council member Nakamura asked me if we could defer, because she was awaiting some information, I think more specifically on the specs of the bags that Mr. Hong mentioned. Tim was that sufficient? Mr. Bynum: I'm trying to decide. I have been working on this and I want to make some comments, but I was trying to decide it would be today or later. Mr. Rapozo: I would encourage today. We're going to have the discussion today and obviously if the motion doesn't pass, if there is no motion to defer, because Council member Nakamura is not on the committee. So she would not be able to make that motion to defer. So if the motion on the floor, the motion is to approve and if it doesn't pass, it will fail today. Mr. Bynum: Then I will make comments now. Is this a good time? 17 Mr. Rapozo: Okay go ahead. ; Mr. Bynum: I think this has been a very interesting discussion and I have done a lot of work on this for a couple of years now and I have tried to stay intact ever since the bill has passed with emerging issues all over the world. So I wanted to start with the intention of the bill is; to not promote any disposable bags. The intention of the bill is to make that behavioral change that we need to make as a world, to not using disposable products in a `range of areas but plastic bags are particularly egregious in my opinion, particularly in Hawaii because of their impact on the marine environment. So I have documents that have influenced me, I have copies for everybody who is interested. And I want to talk about each of those really quickly, as quick as I can so I'm going to go into my fast-forward mode for the sake of time. A document from January of this year the U.S. Environmental protection agency that says the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency today applauds the Mayors, County Councils and residents of Maui and Kauai Counties in Hawaii for enacting restrictions banning plastic shopping bags, reducing their waste and protecting the environment in a single action. So we just got applauded by the EPA and it goes on to talk about the myriads of other places that are taking similar actions. We were the seventh in the nation, Maui was sixth or fifth, and now there are many municipalities that have taken this action and they vary, and we can get into that including entire countries like China, Bangladesh and Australia, South Africa, Ireland and Taiwan. Then it goes on to talk about the great pacific garbage patch and we've all heard about that. It refers to two areas of floating plastic in the North Pacific. Much of the debris is very small bits of floating plastic debris broken down through photo degradation and surveys estimate there may be as much as six times more plastic than plankton in parts of the garbage patch. So even when the bags break down, if it's little pieces of plastic in our environment, it's problematic. The county of Maui and Kaua`i's action will protect many species of marine and bird life that attempts to consume the plastic debris after mistaking them for food. The next document... so since we passed our bill, the chemical industry paid for a study which I read. I have copies that says, hey, in these reusable bags we find bacteria. And you read this study as a layperson and they come to some conclusions, but their conclusions however are not that we should continue to use plastic bags. Their conclusion are that we should educate .consumers about the potential and that they should be aware of not putting meats, chicken and raw meats into reusable bags, and that they may need to be aware of this. The person who did this study in an article from npr says, where is my one with highlights? Says that their intention... here is the one I'm looking for. This is the person that conducted the study University of Arizona microbiologists don't suggest there is going to be an outbreak of disease from the bags, instead the plastic industry found 97% of the people never washed their bags and concluded that the public should be educated about keeping them clean. 18 So this was an article from npr. Assessing this study that said they found bacteria in reusable bags, but the bacteria they found was bacteria found commonly all over the place. When you touch the atm buttons you get this kind of bacteria for instance. Consumer reports said hey this bacteria exists but don't freak out it's not that serious, consumer reports said and they again said that hey we need to educate the public about the potential and keeping their bags clean and being aware and especially. not putting raw meats into reusable bags that contain other things. That's why our bill allows plastic bags for raw meats when you get them in the store to create that barrier because it makes sense as Mark has said. The consumer reports article says that a person eating an average bag of salad greens get more exposure to these bacterial than if they lick the inside of the insides of the dirtiest bag in the study. So consumer reports and other people have analyzed this, the title of the mprl is bacteria may grow on reusable bags but don't fret because it's unlikely that to cause as the author says there's not going to be an outbreak disease from these bags. That's the author of the study that said that, that's what EPA says. We asked our district health office to comment on this and Dr. Bal met with his team and I won't read his entire letter but it's available and he says this is a phantom health issue. That's pretty strong words and he has basically that we are unanimous that this is a rather remote likelihood that someone would get exposed to bacteria that made them ill. Maui County has a similar ban that went into effect that same day and they did a much better job in my opinion of public education. They had a whole you know and they spent I think and Mr. Chang knows something about this that I don't but they spent $20,000.00 educating the public because they thought it was important and they're not getting this kind of push back. One of the articles from the Maui news said that here is how people in Maui are dealing with this issue, and primarily when I was in Maui recently and I talked to retailers and really what they did was look at so there's an article Maui plastic bag banned solutions emerge, and this is from their Chamber of Commerce and they have a list of how retail people are dealing with the issues and on that list it says some retailers are providing take out containers and paper bags that might still leak and leak through paper. Other retailers are providing improved take-out containers that better prevent against leaks. It's really interesting to me that this is something more recently that the alternative containers that better contains leaks also are environmentally more sound. They are made with from paper and biodegradable products and... Mr. Rapozo: Excuse me Mr. Bynum, are you going on much longer? If you will I'm just going to suspend the rule and then you can go on. I think the debate is healthy and I want to hear the rest of it but I just want to stay inside of the rules so... Mr. Bynum: I'm three quarters done. 19 Mr. Rapozo: Well let me just suspend the rules. AL CASTILLO, County Attorney: Excuse me, Committee Chair. Mr. Rapozo: Yes. Mr. Castillo: Al Castillo County Attorney. I just want to keep the record clean and clear here and for the council members to keep mind that we have a plastic bag ordinance 885, and when you speak of the legislative intent to the ordinance, be clear about that. You have an ordinance and then you have a bill. The bill is... Mr. Rapozo: The amendment you mean. Mr. Castillo: Yeah it's the amendment so when you talk about the legislative intent for the bill it should refer to the amendment or your legislative intent. So those are apples and oranges and I want the record to be clear on that. Mr. Rapozo: Okay, thank you very much. Mr. Rapozo: Go ahead Mr. Bynum. Mr. Bynum: So the point I was making is, yeah we have to make adjustments and change is not easy and it hasn't been easy for me. I need to tell you I have a whole bunch of reusable bags because I still have a hard time remembering to take them in there so when I get into the store and I've got my groceries I buy another reusable bag so if anybody needs a few extra, I've got them. But the change that I think is important for the food industry is one, to help us educate the public, but to provide containers that are not so subject to leakage. I heard some testimony here about polystyrene, the other behavioral change I'm trying to make is not to use polystyrene cups, and not use disposable items when I can wash dishes. We don't do paper plates in our home anymore, we do the dishes because it's environmentally more sound and those are not easy changes because convenience is convenient right but I've learned in the last few weeks that polystyrene Styrofoam has significant health issues for all of us particularly when you put hot foods or foods that have chemicals that break the polystyrene down like and I won't go into details but I provide just a couple of papers on that. So in my view we need to change the containers that we take food out in so they are not so subject to leakage and by the way they are more environmentally sound containers. I wanted to say that I totally admire and appreciate Mark and other food vendors who take this seriously. If I'm going to look for health consequences I'm going to look to the health department for that and that is why several of us asked our 20 district health officer to address this and he did in writing, eventually and it's consistent with what other health and food safety people have concluded. That yes, bacteria can be in your reusable bags but its common bacteria that you are exposed to all of the time, when you eat packaged lettuce, for instance. Your body can handle that. Some people who have immune deficiencies have to be more careful than others and if they do have immune deficiencies they know that and they know how important it is to wash their hands and it's simple common sense stuff that we all know. I was. taught by my parents to wash your hands before you eat. Keep things clean that you use and keep your kitchen clean. And so I don't believe on one hand our concerns for the potential cross-contamination of food, which I think are very unlikely are very minimal. Compared to the concerns of polystyrene being in all of our bodies which I just read recently, all of us, if we did tests, have these chemicals in our bodies and we have exposures but some of that is exposures from polystyrene and then the health consequences of putting plastic into our environment and the environmental consequences of that. I will close with the thought that Maui originally got invested in this, because their landfill is in the middle of the saddle in Maui, where there are high winds. Their biggest amount of debris that leaves a landfill is plastic bags, because they are mobile. They have $100,000 in their budget to clean up the plastic bags that are in the environment on Maui because they get caught in the trees. Our landfill the prevailing winds are out to sea and so our plastic bags, we don't have to clean up because they are in the ocean. I got a problem with that and we just had testimony from public works and plastic bags are difficult for them and they suggest we put in new money for screens to try to collect these debris so it's better if the debris aren't there to begin with. Whether it's a plastic bag or a bio-plastic, the intent of the bill that I wrote and I think the council reiterated that later was that we didn't want to put any bags, disposable bags in the environment. We were going to allow paper because if it gets free into the ocean, it's much less likely to cause long-term problems. And the intent is not to have disposables. For all of these reasons, as sincere as the concerns are, I think the best, and my position, is that I'm not going to support this bill that is before us and leave the current bill intact. Thank you for your patience. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you very much and I will call the meeting back to order. Mr. Rapozo: Anyone else with discussions? Mr. Chang: Mr. Chair, if I can, I see Allison Fraley in the audience and I would like to see if I can ask a few questions. Mr. Rapozo: Sure I will suspend the rules. There being no objections, the rules were suspended. 21 Mr. Chang: Thank you Clair. Allison Fraley: Aloha, for the record, Allison Fraley, Solid Waste Program Coordinator. Mr. Chang: Thank you Allison, can you describe to us what kind of education procedures we did for our community? Ms. Fraley: Sure. Mr. Chang: And then maybe a timeline of what we did, please? Ms. Fraley: I actually have copies of what we have done as far as education and I could give this to you and when I'm done just summarizing it. We did a multimedia campaign we posted and we have a web page surrounding the ordinance. We did direct notification to stakeholders, like bag distributers and groups, trade associations involved with business. Mr. Chang: I'm sorry to interrupt. Could you give us the dates, like a timeline? Ms. Fraley: I have it all here. So October 1, 2010 is when we developed the website. Do you want to just take this and you guys can look at it? Mr. Furfaro: Maybe you can speak in content and we can follow your critical path here. Ms. Fraley: Sure. Do you:want me to keep going? I don't have it memorized but basically I mean we inform stakeholders, we did the web campaign, we had public meetings that were promoted through news releases and they were in the newspaper as well inviting businesses to come and be educated about the law and about our draft rules. We were educating businesses and we had a targeted campaign for business that are subject to the law and then after that right before the law went into effect we began educating residents or people that would be shopping and that campaign was news ads, radio ads, newspaper ads as well. We also worked closely with the Chamber of Commerce as well. Mr. Rapozo: Mr. Chang let me just lash the relevance because I think the issue at hand today is the amendment and I'm not so sure we are even close to the education component is really not relevant to the amendment. I appreciate the question because I think it's important but unless you are proposing an amendment, an educational piece... Mr. Chang: Let me put it this way, there are three council 22 members on this table that voted on this bill and there are three new council members right now and I would like to just ask these questions, because council member Nakamura is asking for a deferral. And I think it's important to at least give some sort of background or education, perhaps to council members that were not here. And the reason that I'm leading up to a question as .such was when the bill passed in October of '09, I believe, when we voted on the bill, I supported the ban, and by supporting the ban, the October of '09. Is that correct? Ms. Fraley: That's correct. Mr. Chang: That is a long time ago. So when the bill passed in October of '09, one of the comments that I made was there is a lot of time for education and that's the main thing. Now we need to inform the community. Because I will say admittedly, I will say this right now admittedly, when the bill passed, I didn't really realize it was going to affect the food service people. I never really clearly thought it would affect the take-out. I thought of the Times, of the Big Save and Subway sandwiches and everything else, then all of a sudden as we were getting closer and closer and if we're saying now that we did a campaign of October 1st of 2010, that is one year later and consequently four months prior to the bill coming into effect. So Mr. Chair, the only reason I'm saying that is that I did talk to Maui and they pretty much jumped on it very quickly. I don't know what our budget was but their budget was somewhere around $20,000. I do believe they did a very good job in educating and that's the point that I'm getting into chair, .because three of us were here for the bill whether you folks were keeping tabs of the bill or not. I was just trying to go down a little bit for myself clarification wise because I don't believe we did a good job educating and that's my point that I'm making. Mr. Rapozo: Okay and she's passed out the timeline and if the public wants it, they can get a copy of it. I don't want to spend much time going over the timeline because it's here. I think council member Chang, if you were here and you didn't realize that in fact it would have affected food service people, then I cannot imagine the food service people understanding that it would impact them as well. I say that because I believe there is some (inaudible) to your comments. Any other questions? Ms. Yukimura: Does the administration have a position on the proposed bill? Ms. Farley: Yes we don't support amending the bill at this time, because we feel as enforcers, there is compliance and general acceptance and it's just been a short period since the law went into effect. So we would like to allow more time for the law to go into effect before we consider any amendments. Ms. Yukimura: Thank you. 23 Mr. Rapozo: Question? Go ahead. Mr. Bynum: Just real quick. As Council Member Chang mentioned Maui has a $20,000 budget? Did you have a budget? Ms. Yukimura: Can you speak into the mic. Mr. Bynum: Did you have a budget? Ms. Fraley: We spent $5,000 on our education. Mr. Bynum: So you did have some? Ms. Farley: We had funding. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Any other questions? Go ahead. Ms. Nakamura: The original bill has language in here that nothing in this ordinance shall preclude any retail establishment from offering checkout bags for sale to customers. Ms. Farley: Correct. Ms. Nakamura: I was just wondering, have you done any work with the retail establishments to encourage them to charge a fee? Ms. Farley: We haven't encouraged them. If asked, we have told them that that is an option. Ms. Nakamura: Okay. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Any other questions? Alison, on this list there is a retailer kit county will collaborate with chambers to create. a kit, was that ever done? Ms. Fraley: developed that. No. That was our plan at the time when I Mr. Rapozo: Alright,' thank you very much. Thanks Alison. Anybody else while I have the rules suspended and before I call it back to order. The meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as follows: ~24 Mr. Rapozo: Meeting called back to order, any further discussion? Go ahead, do you have some discussion. Ms. Yukimura: Yes, first of all I want to thank you Chair Rapozo thank you, for introducing the bill though I probably will not vote for it. I am very grateful for the discussion it has generated because I think Council member Chang also articulated that this has been very educational for all of us, and I also want to thank every person who has given us input because it helped to educate us about some really specific impacts that the bill has on especially the food establishments, the take-out food establishments. But also the impact of plastic in the environment and long-range views that we have to take as well. It's been a very healthy process. I also know it's not easy for people to speak up, especially the business community, and yet they are in this case directly impacted. So thank you everyone who has participated. At this point, I am not convinced that there is any significant public health or safety issue in terms of microbial growth in bags. And we have learned also that if there is any risk, that we can minimize it by washing our bags or by not using extra bags or by not using extra bags but by instead using containers that are secure as possible. I think there are issues of convenience and costs, and those are hard because it is hard to change and all of us want the best for our environment and our community, but it's hard to change habits. I have been amongst you as well in having a lot of bags in my car, but forgetting to take them to the store, you know? In terms of the food establishments, there is a special problem, because groceries are different from food products. I can see and I have heard enough to know that paper bags seem to be a problem for the transport of liquid foods. So there may be an in between option in terms of the environment, because compared to plastic they break down. They are a bigger problem for the transport of liquid foods. So if we could narrow the issue down, the transport of liquid foods and if we were to exempt food establishments, those who made changes could go back to a bad habit of using plastic. So what is the solution? And I would like to try to find solutions for every aspect of this bill that is causing problems. What is the solution for transport of liquid foods? All of us have explored together, what are those options? One is better food containers and interesting about that story Lonnie gave us about won ton soup, where there couldn't be much more liquid than that. So it may be a little more cost or a lot more cost, but maybe we can make that transition. Alternatives are cardboard boxes. It's true we all have to pay more attention now, because you don't want to use cardboard boxes that have had hazardous substances in them. The ones that have had soda cans, they work and they are more degradable than plastic. You can have, I think Connie Clausen suggested newspapers and we could all carry more newspaper in our car, or I do carry an old towel. You could do that and put it 25 3 on the floor instead of the seat. So I think it's true that we need more .time to practice with the present framework, and see if we can address that issue. Because on the other side, and I did take the time to .watch the movie "tapped" this past week. The issues of plastic in our environment are really serious long-term stuff that will affect our children and their children: And the research is only starting to come and it is related to breast cancer, diabetes, and MS even, and you look at the wildlife impact. I've been showing carcasses of albatross chicks that have died from plastic in their bellies fed to them because they are seen as food in the ocean and they are digested and don't serve the needs of food. So you see the plastic is getting into our ecosystem; just like pesticides did before we banned DDT. So with all of that, I think we need to stay on track. I want to say that that bill wasn't meant as an end-all, and there have been comments why are you not regulating other plastics? It was meant to address a bulk a major bulk of plastic bag use. Hopefully, we'll go from paper to reusable bags soon, and we'll find alternatives for some of those other places where right now we still have to use plastic. I am just trying to see if I have anything more to say. Thank you, Chair. So I'm in favor of continuing with our present course of existing law and taking a re- look in a year or so if we're not making the transition and if there are other alternatives that we need to consider it. But I think we need time to let our efforts here take effect. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Ariy other discussion? Mr. Chair? Mr. Furfaro: Yes, just as a non-committee and non-voting member of your committee, I just wanted to double check that we do understand there are only four members of your committee here. If you get to a vote, then it is my understanding that the bill could die with a 3-1 vote against the amendment. If you end up at a 2-2 vote, it's my understanding of the rules that it becomes the first item on your next committee meeting. Mr. Rapozo: Correct. Mr. Furfaro: I just wanted. to get verification from the clerk's office that my interpretation of the values rules of the 2-2 vote? Mr. Rapozo: That is correct. That is the case. Mr. Furfaro: So I want to let the other members know that. Because Nadine and I will not be voting on this. Mr. Rapozo: It could also pass 3-1 vote but I doubt it. Mr. Furfaro: It could go either way. I was more concerned in 26 pointing out a 2-2 that will become the first item on your next agenda. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Yes, sir? Mr. Bynum: Just along the same lines, because we were discussing this last night. Normally we have five members, if you have a vote and our rules say you have to vote, you have to take a position. I don't know that our rules anticipate what if it stays 2-2 forever? Would it be deferred forever? Mr. Rapozo: I'm not sure but I know that for the very first if it's a tie vote than it will go to the first order of business then we can clarify that. Ms. Yukimura: I want to also clarify that if it fails then it will move out to the council next week? Mr. Rapozo: Right with the recommendation. Ms. Yukimura: With the recommendation from the committee? Mr. Rapozo:. Right. Ms. Yukimura: Then the whole council would be able to deal with it? Mr. Furfaro: That's correct. Mr. Rapozo: Except for Council member Kawakami. Ms. Yukimura: Right. Mr. Rapozo: Anything else? Council member Nakamura, go ahead. Ms. Nakamura: Thank you. I have been doing some research on this matter, because I wasn't involved in the first ordinance passing. In my discussions with Hopaco and Ventures, I learned that these single-use t-shirt bags make up about 10% of the plastic bags these guys sell. 90% of the plastic bags sold are used for garbage disposal and other uses so they really put it in perspective for me that yes it's a small step but it's an important step and yet there's a larger issue and that's working on some kind of municipal used recycling facility and that's the long term issue here that I think we need to keep into perspective. The other point that I wanted to make is that when I shop and I look at trying to make the effort to bring my reusable bags, I see so many paper bags being freely given out and I really I don't see the behavioral change happening and maybe it's going to take time for that to happen but I think and I know there's some issues that we cannot impose a 27 ~. tax on the use of paper bags and we'would need the authority from the State in order to do that. So knowing that we may want to move in that direction to make it a priority of this county to lobby the -State Legislature to do that. Also to do the work until this county has the authority to impose a fee on the use of paper bags to work with the vendors to charge a~- fee for the use of paper bags. It would be a soft-touch approach but it would be a way to encourage changes in behavior if that's what we're really trying to get at. So that was another area I wanted to explore. The fact that the current ordinance does not, it talks about the definition of "biodegradable bags," really does not exist, and so that sort of bothers me. I wanted to try to see and do a little more research into compostable bags that would compost in landfills. We have done some preliminary research on the different counties who imposed plastic bag bans. And many of them do charge for the use of paper bags and so we wanted to do some research as to how they make that happen, and what the typical charges are. I think it's between $0.05 to $0.10 per bag. So for those reasons, I wanted to explore this further and wanted to ask for a deferral but I'm not a member of the committee, so that was just my recommendation. Mr. Rapozo: We should make you a member today, somehow. Any other discussion? Again, go for it, fire away. Mr. Bynum: We're having discussion right? Mr. Rapozo: I understand, but we suspended the rules and if you have more to add, that is fine. I wanted to end this before lunch. Mr. Bynum: Like I said in the original draft of this bill did impose a fee and was going to leave it and the concept at the time was $0.10 or $0.15 and we would leave it with the retailer and so we would like make the decision hey retailer we would. like to recognize that there may be additional cost and we're not going to have you charge your customers but we're going to do that for you. The attorneys at the time my recollection... Mr. Rapozo: I don't want to get into the discussion of the original bill, because that is not what is on the table. Feel free to put in the amendment. Mr. Bynum: I am trying to address what council member Nakamura said. Mr. Rapozo: Address the amendment that's on .the table and then you can continue but if you are going to go back to the original bill and what you did back then I'm not going to allow that, because it's not on the table today. You want to discuss... 28 Ms. Yukimura: I'm sorry it is on the table today. Mr. Bynum: This bill amends the original bill. Mr. Rapozo: Correct. Mr. Bynum: And we can't talk about the original bill. Mr. Rapozo: Hang on. You had a lot of time to dialogue. If you want to introduce an amendment, you are free to do it, Mr. Bynum, you're free to do it. Mr. Bynum: I'm trying to address some of the things that council member Nakamura just said. Mr. Rapozo: Okay go ahead. Mr. Bynum: Thank you. I believe we could impose a fee. We have that authority it would be like an excise tax. Mr. Castillo: Committee chair, excuse me. The fact that, I mean you're correct regarding the boundaries. Mr. Rapozo: I believe I was, but in the spirit of teamwork I'm trying to allow it, but I'm going to stop it real soon. Mr. Castillo: The fact that another council member may have gone out of bounds doesn't necessarily mean that we can still be out-of-bound. So you are correct regarding your prior assessment that we can still be out-of--bound so you're correct regarding your prior assessment. Mr. Rapozo: And I think I let Mr. Bynum go out-of--bound first and I allowed it to happen because... Ms. Yukimura: Point of order.Mr. Chair, point of order. Mr. Rapozo: What is the rule that I have just violated? Ms. Yukimura: It's the issue of relevance and if Mr. Bynum can introduce... Mr. Rapozo.: Hang on, Im the Chair and the point of order you need to determine the rule that was violated. 29 Ms. Yukimura: The relevance of the discussion that he is out of order. Mr. Rapozo: I have said he -can proceed, but I want to keep it to what the amendment is about and the amendment is to exempt food service establishments from the existing bill. If we can keep it to that, I will let it continue, because I think we have spent a lot of time already on issues outside of the amendment. I would like to continue and get to the vote before lunch, which we're not going to do because it's five minutes to lunch. Mr. Bynum: I will close by .saying that I have contemplated the idea of amendments. I have come to the conclusion that I'm not going to support that. Mr. Rapozo: I heard that the first time. Mr. Bynum; I'm ready to vote. Mr. Rapozo: Okay, Council member Yukimura. Ms. Yukimura: Mr. Chair, if council member Bynum can't propose an amendment, then talking about the issues of the amendment is relevant to the discussion and I'm saying this as a foundation for my comments in response to council member Nakamura's discussion, which is trying to solve the problem in another way or trying to enhance the solution of the problem that you are trying to address by your amendment. We have to have the leeway to speak about these things, because we're not just trying to solve one piece. We're trying to look at the big picture. And so my comments are this, that the issue of a tax or fee or the ability to charge for a bag may be addressed this session. It may actually pass at the state level, and you know as the bill allows merchants to already do it, as Wal-mart, I believe, is already doing. So I think it is part of the solution to the picture, because it's passing on the cost, and it's making people pay for what they are causing and in economists terms, it's internalizing externalities. So I think it's a valid thing to think about as we look at this problem and it may be addressed by the legislature this year. Mr. Rapozo:. Thank you. Any other discussion? Mr. Chair? Mr. Furfaro: Yes. As anon-member and non-voting member of this committee, and it is 12:30 and a few things have been said. It might be good for us to all take a deep breath and have some lunch and come back. 30 Mr. Rapozo: I believe I can wrap up my comments in five minutes. Mr. Bynum: It is your committee. Mr. Rapozo: I don't want to have to burden the audience to have to come back after lunch for this item. If the staff could indulge us with ten minutes at the most so we can vote on this thing. Mr. Chang? Mr. Chang: I'm ready to vote and I will save my comments for next week and when I say, "I will save my comments for next week," I will support council member Nakamura's request for deferral. I would like to make a motion to defer. Mr. Rapozo: Okay hang on. I would like to do my comments first. Is that okay? Ms. Yukimura: There is no second. Mr. Rapozo: Well it could have had a second and then you could have prevented me from... I just want to make a few comments because I think we have gotten so far off of the intent of the amendment which was contrary what many people will think it was a health issue. Many will disagree and that's fine. Many jurisdictions throughout the city have gone to plastic bag bans. That is true, however, most of them and I was hoping to get more time so I could get to prepare the report, but most of them exempt food service establishments for the health issue. So depending on which Doctor you listen to, you'll have a different report and that's just the way it works with every issue on this table. The real question, real question, are we reducing waste? No, we're not and, in fact they are buying plastic bags and going to the stores to purchase bags to line their rubbish cans. We have not met the goals and objectives that this bill was originally intended to do. When we talk about the health issue, many of these doctors will say yeah. The chances of an outbreak of disease is very slim and I agree. I'm not talking about an outbreak. I'm talking about the person with the low immune system. Food poisoning happens a lot, especially here in Hawaii because we keep our food outdoors and the flies fly around and all that and you go to the Doctor and there's no way of tracking and tracing where that came from, there's no way. It's the same with this, guys- are being treated for food poisoning and it could very well be from contamination of food-cross contamination but there's no way we're going. to prove that so it's a good argument for the people that say it's not a medical issue. The document that was provided by Mr. Hong from ehow.Com, I have no idea who this is but it's obviously one version or one side of an argument that says paper bags and the production of paper bags are much worse than plastic. It's much worse. It pollutes the waters, it 31 t pollutes the air. The production of paper bags creates. fifty times more water pollutants than the production of plastic bags and seventy percent more air pollutants. You are going to say that is not accurate, because your studies are accurate and this one isn't. I'm just saying that on any issue, whether it's plastic bags, affordable housing, there are two sides to every issue. And the bottom line is what I wanted to get on this table is the fact that there is a concern for food safety. That is the purpose of the amendment. Some will disagree and that's fine and everybody is entitled to their opinion. But that was the intent and I just assumed take the vote today and if it dies, it dies. I want the public to understand that the intent of this amendment was to address the concern from the food service industry, which are the experts supposedly that there is a chance and in :fact many jurisdictions out in the Mainland today exempt food service establishments for that very same reason. I will ask you folks, why? Are they wrong? I don't know if they are wrong. I think it's a concern enough that they would exempt them from the plastic bag ban. You know, there is much that we can do. We could change the way Kauai does things. We could change the way we seal the food and how about passing a law that says you are not allowed to fill the thing with gravy past a certain line. That is overkill. I think that is what separates Kauai from everywhere else in the country. Chicago, San Francisco, California, we have .got jurisdictions being sued right now for passing a plastic bag bill, but we're not even looking at that, because we want to protect our environment. The reality is, are ; we doing that with the bill as it's currently written? Council member Nakamura mentioned the 10%. That is a very small percentage of plastic bags in the waste stream. Very small, almost insignificant, almost insignificant when you Took at the total picture. But we're focusing all of our energies on the little bags- that they give out at restaurants. I think that I don't believe that if this amendment passes, many of the jurisdictions even exempt pharmacies and newspaper companies but we're just seeking the exemption to allow food service industry to use these bags to prevent any type of possibility of cross-contamination. So the motion on the floor is to approve. I will call for a vote, unless you would like, I would entertain a motion to defer at this point. Mr. Chang: I would like to make a motion to defer. Ms. Yukimura: I second the motion. Mr. Chang moved to defer Bill No. 2400, and seconded by Ms. Yukimura. Mr. Rapozo: Moved and seconded. All those in favor, please say aye. 32 All Council members: "Aye". Mr. Rapozo: All opposed? Okay. The matter is deferred until the next committee meeting. Mr. Furfaro: Excuse me. I want to make sure those were not no votes or silent votes. Mr. Rapozo: They were silent votes? Mr. Furfaro: Okay please record them as such. Mr. Bynum: We can't talk about it. Mr. Rapozo: Right. Well you can clarify your vote. I heard it as silent, which goes with the motion as yes for the deferral. Mr. Bynum: I can't talk about it? Mr. Rapozo: You need to clarify your vote. Was your vote silent? Mr. Bynum: It was silent. Mr. Rapozo: It was silent so okay that would be 4 "ayes". Mr. Furfaro: It's with the majority. Mr. Rapozo: Correct. Thank you, motion carried. There being no further business, this meeting was adjourned at 12:40 p.m. Respectfully submitted, ~"`ti(J urie Chow Senior Clerk Typist APPROVED at the Committee Meeting held on ~i~, a. ~ ~ 2(' ~.1:. MEL RAPOZO Chair, Public Safety & Environmental Services Committee 33