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HomeMy WebLinkAbout7-10-10KAUAI COUNTY HISTORIC PRESERVATION REVIEW COMMISSION Lihue Civic Center, Moikeha Building, Meeting Room 2A /2B MINUTES A regular meeting of the Kauai County Historic Preservation Commission (KHPRC) was held on June 10, 2010 in the Lihue Civic Center, Moikeha Building, Meeting Room 2A/2B. The following Commissioners were present: Randy Wichman, Chairperson, Danita Aiu, Vice Chairperson, Patsy Sheehan, Molly Summers, and Alan Faye, Jr. The following Commissioner was absent: Dennis Alkire. CALL TO ORDER Chairperson Wichman called the meeting to order at 3:01p.m. APPROVAL OF THE AGENDA The agenda was approved as circulated however item C.1. was reviewed after New Business, APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES The Minutes were approved as circulated. ANNOUNCEMENTS AND GENERAL BUSINESS MATTERS Re: Seminar on the Story of Architecture in Hawaii and Historic Preservation Conducted by Historic Hawaii Foundation, June 24, 2010, 1:00 pm to 4:00 pm, Moikeha Room 2A/2B, 4444 Rice Street, Lihue, Kauai. Chair: Announcements and General Business Matters: The Seminar on the Story of Architecture in Hawaii corning up on June 24th, who is going? Which Commissioners are going to be attending this seminar? Ms. Sheehan: Everyone is invited but right now three of us. Four of us are going. Chair: Alright excellent. Thank you. May G, 2010 K,H.PRC, Meeting Minutes Page 2 COMMUNICATIONS There were no Communications. UNFINISHED BUSINESS Re: Letter (2/11/2010) from Malia Luika Farias, Cultural Researcher, Cultural Surveys Hawaii requesting input for a Cultural Impact Assessment for a proposed rock crushing establishment along an approximately 5 mite section of 50 acres, on the lower side of the Kekaha Ditch, Pokii Ahupuaa, Waimea District, Kauai Island, Hawaii, TMK: [411 -2- 002 -001 = Pohaku O Kauai Materials, LLC. Chair: Well thank you and welcome back. Thank you for your patience once again. Ms. Malia Farias: I wonder if... I have a Powerponnt. Chair: Say again? We need some time to set it up but today we, County needs some time right? Ms. Farias: I wanted to show my Powerpoing because I actually have, I am almost done with the actual document. There is three hundred twenty seven pages at this point and about a week to be complete. So do have my preliminary recommendations. Chair: Yes County needs a little heads up with the AV equipment. Please introduce your guest. Mr. Haku Rivera: My name is Haku Rivera of Pohaku 0 Kauai. Chair: Welcome. Ms. Farias: He is our client on this project. I guess I should say a little bit about myself I come from Cultural Surveys Hawaii. I have been working for Dr. Hal Hammatt now for the last year. Genealogically I trace my family to Kau. I come from the Kanakaole Olivera family. My grandma Pii Olivera from the Kalaupapa Ranch. On my mother's side the Ah Fung Noneakina Fernandez family from Oahu Maui and my grandmother actually traces our genealogy through legend and story to Kauai and then ended up being (inaudible) which I discovered through doing this CIA and speaking to some of the families there. I was asked to come to Kauai from the Big Island. Now I reside in Waikoloa to look at, to do this cultural impact assessment pertaining to Pohaku 0 Kauai which is a proposed rock crushing establishment along old Mana Road. Finally my professional back ground is that I attended the University of Hawaii Manoa Archeology. I have degrees and certificates in Hawaiian Studies, Pacific Island. Studies. Undergraduate work was in Hawaiian Culture and Language and my graduate work was in Archeology of the Hawaii and the Pacific at UH Manoa. May 6, 2030 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 3 Chair: Before we begin let's catch up. You were here two months ago. We made a preliminary set of recommendations at that particular point. My understanding or our understanding at this particular point is that you haven't actually applied for the permits yet? Mr. Rivera: Nope. Chair: No so there is not actual application in on the County books as we speak right now. Therefore this particular session right here is under a pre - consultation process of which you know this Commission is very fond of It allows the different landowners or project directors to come forward prior to the actual permitting in order to let everybody to kind of get on page. Once you apply for the permits then you come for the final determination and then you are moving on. It saves everybody a lot of time the pre - consultation process. So at this particular point I don't think we are quite ready to make the final determinations today because we have one more I think at that at which we can make the final set of recommendations. And I think both SHPD and this Commission really needs to see the archeological inventory report in order for us to make these particular designations we need to know within the landscape where everything is and I know that's what Malia has been working on. This is what she is about to produce essentially. Once the Commission and SHPD and others are aware of the localities of the sites within this corridor then I think we can take the recommendations to the next level. If you are ok just to explain exactly where we are right there, the final determinations won't be coming out today. Ok you are ok with that? Ms. Farias: Sure. I would also like to mention to we have Sean Coombs the Planner that is involved with the project. Chair: Good I appreciate the introduction. Ms. Farias: Gerald Iida from our archeological team that was out there doing the survey. We noticed in reading the minutes that you had several questions for each one of us that are here today. We are happy to answer whatever questions you have. Chair: If you have any opening remarks. You speak first please as guest. Mr. Haku Rivera: Ok what we are going to be doing is basically improving the agriculture operation on the Westside. We were confronted by one of the members in the Kekaha Association since we were just collecting boulders for sale. So what we are looking at is just right in the farm area. I was with the plantation for twenty five years. Chair: Ok. Kekaha? Mr, Rivera: Kekaha/Lihue and Kekaha after they merged and I was in charge of all the mechanical operations. I had to take care of all the equipments. Chair: Yes you are intimately familiar with the corridor. May G, 2010 KE.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 4 Mr. Rivera: Yes that area and like I said I was approached by one of the members from Kekaha Agriculture Association and being that they get their farm areas but then they get these other areas where they cannot get in and needs some improvement so we are looking at some improvements, We are not mining for anything we are just collect them and sizing them you know. Chair: And then the duration of this particular activity do you have... Mr. Rivera: The thing is we really we are small so we are going to start off maybe the minimum amount of guys is like two and then going up to like three or four you just collecting. And then as we need when get sales we going bring trucks and hall em away. Chair: So it is actually just kind of on going over a long period of time then. This is not a limited window collect up the field boulders and then gone. This is a long term. Mr. Rivera: Slow process and like I said improvement of the farm area and they get I am not sure if you are familiar with he Westside they get power lines and open ditches so we are looking at staying where the power lines are. Chair: Which is makai of that ditch which is actually a Hawaiian Homes property so are you considering moving it to a Hawaiian Homes property? Hawaiian Homes do you have an agreement with Hawaiian Homes to move into the base of the slope? Mr. Rivera: Right there in Waiawa Valley where get the mango grove and everything we have a permit with them. We would be just storing the rocks there on site. Chair: I know within the community of course it's when you move mauka things get tense but at the same time within the existing Old Government Highway the old Hawaiian Trail which is exactly kind of what you were doing and the old Hawaiian Trail became a Kingdom Trail a Kingdom Road then the Government Highway. You have Waiawa which is the Knudsen Ranch right out there. You also have the Village of Pokii which is also there within close proximately of this corridor and then things mauka. Hauola Heiau but I don't think we will be dealing with T Iauola or anything mauka or a particular line right. Mr. Rivera: Way, way below that. Chair: Yes but now that you mentioned an arrangement with Hawaiian Homes that means that the parameters have expanded a little bit right there. But I think we are looking forward to your report and placing the sites within the context. Commissioners any questions? Ms. Aiu: I heard her say that you are here client. You are? Are you this person Pohaku O Kauai Materials LLC? Is that you? Mr. Rivera: Yes I am one of the partners yes. May G, 20]0 KRP.RC, Meeting Minutes Page 5 Ms. Aiu: You are one of the people that owns this company? Ok how many people owns this company? Mr. Rivera: Just two. Ms. Aiu: Two owners and that's your own property that you are going to be? That's someone else's property that you are... Mr. Rivera: Yes State Land. Chair: As you are well aware there is, not to interrupt you, that there are solar projects that are coming down on the upper end not in the corridor, in this particular one, cause you are Kekaha you are not necessarily pushing out to the Waimea side of Kekaha, maybe a little bit. But I know Hawaiian Homes is also interested in this particular area. A lot of attention is focused within this particular as you well know right. Hawaiian Homes is considering transferring those land and trading them with the lands out in Polihale, essentially the large triangle. So again you are going to have that. You are going to have the solar project which I believe is back on the books again. There is also... no, no the hydro no. Hydro is being in discussion right now but nothing on the books in hydro but it's in discussion which is two capture system using the thing but that's predicated on the fact that Iawaiian Homes is interested in the thing. But anyways there is a lot of focus in this area right now. You are right in the middles of it. Mr. Rivera: We were hoping that we could collect some rocks for that job on that side too, We are not looking around being millionaires' overnight cause when you collect boulders and everything the process is expensive. Mr. Faye: You are going to have a rock crusher though? Mr. Rivera: Yes we are going to have to bring in one and get permits. Mr. Faye: So you are just collecting them. Mr. Rivera: Yes and sizing them. Chair: And then other little things like the access way of the lineal descendents are you ok with that? You know do you understand what we mean by that you know that certain number of families have traditional movement through these lands are you ok with that? I am sure you can work it out with them an arrangement that would suit everyone in the community. Another one too is that, well anyway commissioners I have spoken enough. Ms. Aiu: I am sorry that I am asking so many questions but we haven't had anything to read so I am trying to get a general picture yea. Is your other partner Roland Sagum? Mr. Rivera: No Stan Morinaka. May 6, 2010 K,H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 6 Ms. Aiu: 4h Stan ok. So I am trying to get what you want to do. You are on State land and you are going to collect rocks? Mr. Rivera: Yes so for instance if this is a field they are growing the corn and everything before when had the cane we used to just push the boulders to the side. Ms. Aiu: Right and you make these piles of rocks. Mr. Rivera: So we collect em all and improve the fanning area and we are going to be using the same roads getting into and coming out. Ms, Aiu: And you are going to take the rocks, oh no you said you had a rock crusher on site. Am I getting that right? Mr. Rivera: Yes. Ms. Aiu: And then you are selling these rocks to someone in an other place? Mr. Rivera: Yes but we were hoping someone close in that vicinity of the Westside yea. Cause we are not looking at making two hundred tons of rocks in one year. We are looking at fifty at the most small operations to start. Mr. Faye: Are you connected at all with Mike Faye and his rocks? Mr. Rivera: No. Mr. Faye: He has a pile of rocks. You are not working with him? Mr. Rivera: No not yet. He inherited those rocks. Mr. Fave: That was some from the boat harbor. Ms. Sheehan: Can I just ask again because I was unclear whether this was, although you are not trying to do a lot of rocks once you set this up this is an operation that would go on for as long as somebody wants crushed rocks and for as long as there is rock on State land you can use as a resource. So you are bringing in a rock crusher that become permanent? Mr. Rivera: No portable, small little operation. Ms. Sheehan: There is some concern with some families that use the long five mile road to access mauka so I think we were talking about that road becoming exclusively a road that, has trucks going back and forth or would it be locked. Is it a locked right now? Mr. Rivera: Yes it's locked. Ms. Sheehan, So families can access that right now? May d, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 7 Mr. Rivera: I am not sure. On the weekend the DLNR has access to go hunting in that area. So I guess that is when most of the community comes when get the hunging season. Ms. Farias: the main road of the vicinity is open and then the families access, the mauka portions are gated and so they go around or else they would talk to Landus and get the key and then malama their burials. Ms. Sheehan: We were concerned perhaps that some of these rocks being still significant is there any way that you are looking at the rocks or do you just assume that just because they have been moved once they are disturbed already. Ms. Farias: Definitely the issues of stones, rocks and pohaku and wahi pana is very important within our culture and it totally understand that. The problem that in order to understand the significance of a rock that is a wahi pana or even an archeological side you would need someone that knows what something like that looks like. But in terms of spirituality that was some of the questions I had from some of the families is how do you know which rock is not occupied by uhane or something you know. The real answer to that is we are not going to have kahuna out there moving these rocks you know. We are not going to be having people that may be might possibly might know this unless of course a series of events happens or something. So you know as it is in Hawaiian culture as things occur you know. But so I am not sure exactly sure how to address that other than in terms of archaeologically and then the possibility and then part of my recommendations is cultural monitoring. But because this is a lengthy project it becomes an issue as to whether that's really reasonable or not. I can say in terms of our you know just from an archaeological stand point it's also a questionable thing where maybe someone could be on call or something otherwise you are going to be following the trucks up and down the street and every time they pick up a rock they have to check the rocks. I have worked on projects similar to that. So I mean that's my professional opinion and that's my opinion culturally. I will get into that as the results come back. These are basically numbers and some maps and some things that I can show you what I came up with but in terms of my recommendations, the other thing too was the community was requesting monitoring themselves. They have asked that but they also wanted a member of their community which in terms of wahi pang that would be appropriate because only the one that, the determination of wahi pana really is a spiritual determination based on Hawaiian cultural values and someone with a clear understanding of how that works would know. The rocks also, I have been in that area and looked it looks like some washed down from rain and things like that too so there is probably things of that going on as well. So anyway there there is the issue of oh are they going to be taking rocks with limo or rocks without limu or you know that's also another way that we look at things and that relationship and if it has limn then it's older and it's been there a while which is sort of a logical thing but it's not really something archeologically that we can tell true the long length of time that that one has been there. May 6, 2010 k.I3,P.R.C, Meeting Minutes Page R Chair: There in lies one of the challenges right there is that I think some how we are going to have to find a balance within the community with this right here. One of em is that you are considering proposing cultural monitoring but I understand in the long term process it gets a little bit, I can see in the long term where some of that will have to be defined a little bit further. The community potentially is saying that. on one side is that you know field boulders yes they moved around, Kekaha Plantation moved a lot of these field boulders and we know that many of these field boulders were not incorporate into the main wall of heiau. So yes what the community essentially is saying you know that how do we make sure that a field boulder is taken and something that isn't. One other thing is a separate stock pile of perhaps of some of these and some of the families could have access to. We are just talking right and we are trying to find the balance between making sure that you are doing the right thing and taking only the field stones. But I think we can do that by defining these cultural areas right? Yes I think as long as I think there are certain activities along these areas is good. The moment that they breach then we have em, then we have a government problem within a pennitting process right. They would have no choice then to come in and do what they gotta do anyways. So once these particular preserves are established I think we can go a little bit further but it is the balance between the community somehow if we can balance that out. And I think we will probably be able to come up with something of that award for both.the community and the new guys. Mr, Faye: I don't know if they still have em but all of the old field stone usually have ripper marks. Mr. River: Oh when you push it with the blade? Chair: Bulldozer marks. Mr. Fa e: They have big marks on them. Probably still have em. That's the kind you are still worried about. Chair: I am not quite comfortable to say any boulder with a scar help yourself to either. I understand what you are saying yes generally speaking you are right absolutely. There is a small exception to this. Just to keep that in mind. Are we ready? Ms, Farias: Ok this is the cultural impact assessment for, as it reads there, proposed rock crushing establishment. The impact, the actual project area per say in terms of where the actual work is going to take place is located with in Pokii Kauna, Waiawa and Man.a Ahupuaa in Waimea District in the island of Kauai. It is written that way and I will explain why it's referred to this way. Although the CIA covers areas outside of that because of interrelatedness of the people along the Westside of Kauai so I did include also Kekaha and Waimea Bay in some areas and mauka areas as well. May G, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 9 Ok so here is the project area laid over a TMK map. If you see the red line that is the project area. The lower green line kind of swooping like this, that's the new government road that extended out. Chair: This right here is the old government road that went mauka right here. Mr. Fa e: Kokee Road. Chair: You moved the lines, the parameters are longer then the last time right? Everything was down prior. This is an extended map right? Ms. Farias: Yes just slightly. Well part of it too is you know the road is historic right and there is all these historic bridges. Gerald can talk about hat too but here is the new, it's labeled new government road as of the date on this map and I circled some of the old, what I saw on this map that we were looking at. These are where the villages were. Here is the USGS map. Mr. Faye: That's Kokee Road on the far right. Chair: Yes over here but the old Kokee Road is in the corridor. Ms. Farias: Yes the next ridge. So here you have Kekaha Town to the South, PMRF to the left and then the project extending upwards. On this map you can see Mana Camp there. So it's just mauka of Mana Camp just below where the military reservation is, the caves. So that is basically where it's at and that's where it terminates. I think it was as far as Saki Mana which is one of fine, I looked at some of your minutes of one of your meetings Kunane was talking about a site over there a birthing site. Chair: But he made references to Hauola Heiau although he didn't actually name it. He made references to that heiau. Ms. Farias: In some of our interviews they talk about a birthing site over there as well. Is that Hauola that you are talking about? Chair: Hauola. Ms. Farias: Yes. Chair: But it also has other functions too. There is other things going on too. Ms. Farias: So they were also saying that the one they were thinking was way close to the road was more closer to Saki Mana which is further down. So we were thinking that was outside the project area but we will document what your moolelo of that area was. So we did that and then so it kind of gives you an idea of where the project area., the actual working project area as far as my APE for this CIAs are much bigger so I look at the entire region the entire ahupuaa. I look at makki, mauka and so forth because especially with roads and trails. Road and trails are there for May 6, 2010 K.H.RR.C. Meeting Minutes Page 10 a reason to access the areas and what were they accessing. What were they using for to access other areas? So this CIA complies with these regs. Methodology this is the research focus of a CIA which you are well familiar with I am sure. So my approach to it is establishing time and space. So I look at interrelated regions. Timelines begins as far back as I can find and as much as I can find . and then that moves forward. We do snowballing community consultation through snowballing techniques which the best way to describe that is like that shampoo commercial. I tell two friends, you tell two friends and so forth. That's the way we get referrals. We start off with the small group and we refer out from there and we get to larger and larger groups. We are interested in cultural practices that are still on going and interested in documenting cultural practices through time in the area, traditional cultural practices. So here is the community consultation process as I kind of described. So first we have notification. Notification letters went out in February of this year and from those letters I followed up with phone calls (inaudible, tape change). And then there is a transcription process. After that I analyze and look at it in terms of traditional cultural practices and I group from these interviews traditional cultural practices from these people's lives that they knew of and then link them to the past and present as it relates to the project area and the surroundings. And then we do the summary and recommendations and we are talking about recommendations in terms of cultural monitoring. Any recommendations that I make is based upon what I find in my research and largely based on community input. And then of course I do have my professional recommendations as well. But most of my recommendations are based on community input overlaid with my professional opinions or conclusions. So here is my results, fifteen ok these numbers a little bit different. I don't know if want me to add these up but I added these up this morning and I went ok. So fifteen original referrals were received from members of our staff that have worked in the area before and lived here. Miss Kamai works with us and others from Kauai that gave us referrals of people's names. So from those fifteen referrals immediately as soon as the letters went out I would say within three or four days my phone went off and it kept going off and it was from families that had bones up on the ridges. And so they intern gave me in turn twelve additional names of referrals kupuna and so forth, family names. Then I sent an additional round of letters, an additional round of emails and an additional round of phone calls. Fourteen more referrals were found through my own research of going through and finding names of families and names of organizations of people who I thought would have an interest in knowing what was going on in that area and maybe have input for the CIA. And then twenty three more referrals were added to the list after my interviews and other in person contacts for a total of sixty four not fifty seven. Not all of these referrals by the way were able to be contacted. Some of em had moved. Some of em, a lot of times they will move and then maybe I can pick up the trail at some other point but some of em it just led to dead ends or led to no response. Of that sixty four total twenty four were connected to local organization or representing organizations such as Aha Punanleo O Kauai, Kauai Island/Niihau Burial Council. The local lua group that is Alan Arquet, Na Pali Coast Ohana, some of those ohana that I spoke too, Canen May G, 2010 K.H RR.C. Meeting Minutes Page 11 Hookano, I guess he is involved with you folks. E Olamaunaleo 0 Kekaha which is a Kekaha community organization, several members of that organization interviewed. OHA trustee and administration Donald Cataluna in particular was ill at the time and I did a phone interview with him. His family is from Maria and originally Niihau. Hui 0 Laka, Kokee Archeolgoical Educational Group, Waimea Valley Association, Kauai Historic Preservation Review Commission, Kauai County Planning Department, Kaeaea Foundation, Kauai Westside Watershed Council, SHPD cultural and archeological, Nancy McMahon, Kauai County Planning Department, I already said that sorry, Nature Conservancy. I probably make everybody nuts whoever is taking notes. Families that were contacted where Aana Family, Kilauano Family, Aipoalani Family, Aipoalani-Kanakaole and Arashiro families, the Wichman Family, the Faye Family, the Mundon Family, the Godwin Kaohi Family, Hookano Family, and Kaholoikikilauano Family. There are others please let me know. The results of the, sixty four total thirty five individuals or organizations responded. Eight provided telephone, letter or email responses which are going to be attached to my CIA. Twelve individuals /organizations offered response of no comment for example the Kokee people decided that Marcia Ericson she said it was outside of her area she doesn't want to comment and suggested that I speak to Aletha Kaohi. So that's what I did. One person provided permission to use prior interviews. Kaipo Hookano was interviewed prior and also Aunty Aletha Kaohi was interviewed prior for a different project so I was able to use some of their oral interviews and some of their statements about this region for this CIA as well. Twenty four individuals or organizations did not respond after three to nine attempts. CSH is still awaiting for responses from eleven individuals or organizations I think I mentioned that the CIA will be complete by next week so it's sort of one of things that we may never hear from them. We may never be able to include them with the CIA however; three hundred twenty seven pages go far. That is pretty thorough and pretty much does make all efforts to document the area as best as possible under CIA guidelines. Sixteen persons interviewed over four days. I came here, I was on island the March 17tt' to the 20th at which time besides these interviews I was the Historical Society with Randy and looking through some of the files there. We were talking about the area looking at the maps and so forth and that sort of thing. So I had initially six interviews set up and I got here and I ended up interviewing sixteen people in six interviews is what happened. Two of the six interviews consisted of groups. One was four persons and the other with eight persons. The four person took place in Waimea the eight person one took place at St. Theresa's in Kekaha. Four interviews conducted with individuals of these two of them were field trip interviews which was fantastic. We went out Willy Martin took me out in the truck and we went up down every where. I took a lot of pictures. Documented a lot of stuff, took a map and was able to generate a base map from him and then use that base map to ask the Kupuna to plot where they thought things were as well. So we have a nice little map that will be included with the CIA. And then Aunty Isabelle Takekawa was the other field trip interview. Her husband used to work for the power plant and so she talked a little bit about Waiawa and that area. May b, 2010 K,I•I.P.RZ Meeting Minutes Page 12 The age range of the people I interviewed, the oldest was ninety years old and the youngest was thirty seven which would be Canen Hookano. Five persons and then the dates they were born sort of age they are and so forth. So we got a very nice range of ages even in terms of community notification as far as that goes. I mean nice range although CIA is not really a community notification process. Oh can we go back just one please. And then I will say about the group interviews though actual interview processes began probably after the first half hour of questions and my scope of work I was able to answer some questions. Of course some of the questions you have here will be a matter of public record. Ms. Aiu: So as you did all of this what was the feeling that you got of how the people felt about the project? Ms. Farias: Well in general people were sort of surprised at first. They weren't aware of it. My notification, my letter was the first that they heard of it. And then they had questions about the project tin general and then basically what I could tell them was what in terms of our project description and what my research was based on which is the project description. The project area that was detailed to me and what information I knew and then we and then from that there was still questions but I think at that point they were sort of a little bit more alleviated you know of some of their curiosity in that respect. And then at that point then they talked but some concerns. One of the concern was the issues of the stones. The other concern was access to the ridges cause they still malama iwi up on the ridges some of the families. While they don't use that corridor per say the actual project corridor for gathering purposes and so forth they do use that corridor to get mauka. Even for hunting and so forth you know. I wasn't able to and that doesn't mean that, that doesn't occur. We did do a good job of saturation but I wasn't able to locate gatherers that go up mauka to gather, plant gatherers but that doesn't mean that it doesn't. occur. But as far as the project area goes it's an access area as it really has been transportation route from point A to point B and then access area. Of course we know that people used to live all along that road and off to the side but it's generally outside, from what I understand, outside from the project area. They are going to be using the corridor to go back and forth and picking up stones along the edges and the old houses and old places would be outside either mauai or mauka of that road. And I will let Gerald talk about whatever archeology of their initials surveys cause they are not done with that portion of the report yet. What was the other concern, the other concern was... Ms. Aiu: Well I wanted to know how the community was feeling as you went along and talked and then as they had their concerns did you Mr. Rivera because you are going to be in the field feel that you could alleviate these concerns over the stuff that we are going to have haka haka about. Mr. Rivera: Well I think we can work. May b, 2010 KERR.C. Meeting Minutes Page 13 Ms. Aiu: You think you can? Mr. Rivera: Yes. Ms. Aiu: Ok that took care of my general question you think you can. Thank you. Ms. Farias: So based on my research I came up with a general timeline of course most of this you all know but I just wanted to show you that I did my homework basically. And then there was another page that goes with this. Some of the questions, some of the problems that of course I had was with some of the earlier documents have to do with this term ahupuaa I aina ili of Waimea and you know what. I mean I had to do some research of trying to find the boundaries and I think I found some boundaries that look pretty good. So here we have, oh and also something really interesting came out of this research was I had an incident I talked to one kupuna and I was talking about the area. I showed him the map, the USGS, map and he got very confused looking at the map and so initially I thought ok thank you very much uncle and I said thank you very much and then I left right but then I got to thinking about it especially when I went out with Willy Martin. Willy Martin and I went all over the place and I kept saying uncle is this is where we are right now, he said no we in Waiawa. We Pokii right now. Chair: The local uses of the place names. Ms. Farias: Yes and so what I found in the initial research in the documents showing that there was a big change ' in the usage of ahupuaa and ili aina and things like that, even some of the boundaries after Kamehameha's reapportionment. You see also that the traditional ancient names still prevail. So they don't use the name of say for example this particular ridge unless it pertains to Pokii for example but like in Waiawa for example they don't use these names of those ridges necessarily other than to say I am in Waiawa. And so I found that very interesting that these sorts of ideas of places and place names that are no longer used in modern documentation because it's all Waimea district now. It's all Waimea Ahupuaa now but the old timers still use these old terms which I thought was wonderful. So I designed my whole CIA based on the old names out of honor of the people of Kauai and the people of the Westside. Mr. Fare: Did you ever get any information from David Silva'? Ms. Farias: No I didn't. I didn't speak to him? Mr. Faye: He was the one that did a lot of, you remember that Pokii when they did all the clearing of land there. I think you were in Kekaha then weren't you? Mr. Rivera: I was there since '93. Mr. Faye: David Silva was there then? Chair: You are talking about David Silva, Sr. May 6, 2010 KH,P,R,C, Meeting Minutes Page 14 Mr. Faye: The one who was the manager in Kekaha. He did a lot of that Pokii clearing. That was his idea to make it more sugar production. Ms. Farias: There was some places and stuff that I found on the old maps that I can't find anywhere like Paua School for example is on the1819 map and I couldn't find any reference to that. So there were some areas but they are there on the map and the report and hopefully somebody some day will... Chair: And certain residences along those lines. Also there is a comprehensive farming that went on for quite a while. But essentially at this particular point, if I may, my main concern at this particular point and then I need to have, I would like to have the village of Pokii the boundaries actually identified within the landscape yea. In the Eric Knudsen's book Kanuka 4 Kauai in the front inside cover is a map of Waiawa the Ranch. We are talking about Waiawa the Ranch not as a you know the boundaries within the name includes within the boundaries of the ranch. Right across the street from it, across the road right there was Village of Pokii. These guys are super famous for producing the famous tapa cause the Mana/Kekaha sun dried the tapa like no where else on this island right. So they produced a very fine white tapa there. I would like to see and then Gerald once you have identified exactly where this village is, is there anything left: on the surface of it? I would be really curious to know. Ms. Farias: Well when Willy Martin and I when I was out there that was one of my question where was Pokii Village. Chair: It's in the map behind Mr. Faye: It was makai right? Chair: No it was according to Knudsen map on the inside cover of Kanuka 0 Kauai you have the ranch homestead right here, you have the government highway right there, right across the street was the village. Now and we notice on the snap when they cleared out this particular section they left an island of green inside of this and that is one of my main focal point in order to get me into this cause this doesn't change essentially they essentially moved it around. They left a very specific area in there, there was no disturbance every. I am actually curious to see what's up with that. Ms. Farias: He pointed out, he said Pokii well maybe he was referring to Pokii Camp because he said it was located right there where the old, right next to Kokee Road. The modern Kokee Road right inside that way going towards the Mana Road in that little area there on the makai side of the road and then he was saying there are still ruminants in the bushes. Mr. Faye: That is where my grandfather built a house, the Pokii house. Ms. McMahon: I think that's where the Aipoalani family is. May G, 2010 K.RP.RC. Meeting Minutes Page Is Mme: That was the Pokii house that he built and had all those big trees going down to the big house. Ms. Farias: Oh so that was Pokii house. Mr. Fave: I have pictures of that if you want to take a look at that. I have a huge collection of those. Chair: You are talking about the one on the Mana Camp side? Mr. Faye: No, no. Chair: Waimea side? Mr. Faye: Yes. Chair: Oh A Yes but the village is different when than this right. So take another look at the inside cover of Kanuka that puts it within a frame I think they may just be a little bit but I am curious about that. Ms. Farias: Well when we were out in Waiawa Valley side he marked out ceftain areas that are still there but it is mauka of the road between the ditch and the road and he said oh yea there is still some remnants in the bushes over there and there is model Ts and model A cars. And I said wow really and I was wondering if that was actually the Knudsen Ranch area. Chair: Yes again because we have been able to review all the aerials from early on all the way up. I haven't been able, I have not walked the land exactly per say. So everything I am making is in reference of what I see in the aerial photographs. Chance area they may be something right there. But I would life to cross it off of whether Pokii if anything remains that Village. Cause that would be one of your circles within the bits right. Ms. Farias: So it is mauka of the road in Waiawa yea? Chair: Yes. Mr. Faye: Maybe you ought to talk to Mike Faye cause he made quite a study of that area at one time. I remember cause I was asking him about it. Do you know him at all? Ms. Farias: Mike Faye? Yes I sent him a letter and he told me he was going to respond and I never heard back from him. He said thank you for contacting me I am going to get back to you. That was the last I heard so I have to call him back. Mr. Fave: How long ago was that? Ms. Farias: That was maybe at least a few weeks to a month now. May b, 2010 KAT.R.C, Meeting Minutes Page 16 Mr. Faye: He would be somebody you would want to interview right? Ms. Farias: Ok I will try to call him. Chair: Are we ready to take public input Commissioners? Mr. Faye: Thank you very nice. Chair: Is there anyone in the community that wish to address. Please step forward nice to see you again. Ms. Leanora Kaiaokamalie: Hello thank you. I ,just wanted to come back and for the record Leanora Kaiaokamalie myself and Uncle Kunane Aipoalani was here back in March to provide testimony on our concerns on this project. You know I am familiar with Cultural Surveys in the past and I know that they do a good job as far as documentation. I am still concerned with that very issue that you brought up regarding the significance of one pohaku from another pohaku. That still makes me very nervous with the idea that this project may be long term. I thank you for bringing up the fact that they still, Pohaku O Kauai, still has to go in and get their Class IV and Special Use Permit this being a State Land of course showing all the documentation that they can on leases that they might have with DHHL and the State itself. By depending on the, I don't know at what point they designate the size, the ending size of this project but Land Use Commission might need to take a look at this project as well. I don't know at what point. I just wanted to thing these things at mind. I also had a question and maybe when Gerald comes up he can address this whether or not Kaunalewa came up at all during the interviews and where that particular village is in that area. And I thank you for considering this and just wanted to mention that I did take vacation time to come here and provide some testimony. I just wanted to make the Kilauano Aipoalani and extended family's presence known that we are concern and that we are makaala over this project and look forward to talking with the applicant on this at some time. Thank you. Ms. Ai u: So you are saying, when she showed this she said that she contacted a lot of people was your family contacted? Ms. Kaiaokamalie: To my knowledge at least Uncle Kunane, I am not sure if you spoke to Aunty Ulu Kilauano she would have extensive knowledge of Waiawa and in the stories that we go through every family reunion and over Waiawa, Kaunalewa, Pokii Kauaa especially. So you know of course you know we are just going to be makaala on this project and making sure they follow up on whatever process they need to. And also to coming up to the community when they can to do some informational meetings and get some feedback that way as well. Ms. Aiu: Ok so is someone you know willing to be a cultural practitioner to makaala the place or what are your thoughts on this? May 6, 2010 K,H,P,R.C, Meeting Minutes Page 17 Ms. Kaiaokamalie: You know there might be. Them coming up to the community and also maybe speaking again to the family on that point they might find somebody. I could talk to the family because there is no written documentation, I don't have anything right now, I wouldn't want to go out and prematurely talk about the project since I am not sure what it entails. Maybe through that process we could find someone interested and with the time to take that type of place for the family. But at this point you know most of the family resides out there. Aunty Marie is still out there too. So they are watching anyway to see what's going on. I guess I can reiterate my big concern is just because the rocks are not (inaudible) doesn't mean that there is no significance to it. And I don't know enough of it myself it just makes me a little concerned. Chair: Yes and there lies the challenge that we need to find some sort of balance at some point with that. Ms. Kaiaokamalie: Right if there can be a balance. Chair: At this particular point it sounds like some of the preliminary reports are recommendations coming out of this will form a new set of discussions and at a positive level to begin the next set of defining discussions on it. So at this point I am heartened that the research is continuing. The interviews are continuing. The contact with the Kekaha/Waimea/Westside community is continuing. Ms, Kaiaokamalie: Thank you very much. Chair: Thank you. Ms. Farias: (Inaudible). Chair: As you understand this particular point we are not going to make our final presentations or final recommendations I am sorry and then we are going to save that for the next time when we actually read the report and your final conclusions and especially the locations of these sites within the parameters. And then whatever mitigation or that we can do to alleviate at that point. Is there anybody? Commissioners any more questions? Nancy at this point? Ms. McMahon: You have a deadline when you will be ready? Ms. Farias: Well if I have additional interviews it will that timeline that I mentioned earlier will be extended and that will be dependent on how long it takes my informants to return their transcripts to me. So at this point I am not sure. Chair: Yes but you are nearing the conclusion of your studies yea and pretty soon your report will be done. Ms. Farias: Yes I am hoping soon. We can do some preliminary stuff that we have already done but as far as the whole complete report won't be done until I finish some of the recommendations (inaudible). May 6, 2010 K H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 18 Chair: I personally and on behalf of... Gerald? Mr. Gerald Iida: Can I make a really small presentation? Chair: That was your chance. In fact I almost closed it on you. Mr. Iida: I just wanted you guys to take a look at this. Of course this is totally unofficial very preliminary but as you can see if you take a look at the map when Malia just presented the map of the project area. Ms. Aiu: So this is what was up there? Chair: Do they have a copy of what we are looking at? Yes we want you to have a copy while we are reviewing this. It's a work in progress. Mr. Iida: As you can see basically the project area that was shown in one of the power point pages was a five mile continuous strip. It has been changed several times and even the map that you have is not the final project. But it's going to look something like that. It's going to be like one long strip, it's going to be several parts of that strip. It will include also access which is all the accesses is going to be by existing plantation roads. The other thing in there is that the only time any part of the project area gets near or crosses the Kekaha Ditch is where the old quarry used to be and that is not shown on that map as part of the project area but it actually is. Chair: Yes and the old quarry has been reactivated. Mr. Rivera: No it's just a stock piling area. Chair: Oh it is? Cause I saw some movement out there the last time I went to Polihale so I thought they were reactivating the quarry. Thank you. Mr. Rivera: The have some farm lots makai side. Ms. McMahon: Well I took the archeology, one year we had one of the field trips I took for archeology week was to the circumcision heiau that is up there and I knew it's actually at the edge boundaries of the quarry but the road actually and the ditch cut through the site. Cut the site in half. There is a bunch of rocks in there. Those are rocks probably from the heiau. There has been a big wipe out that happened and they had to fix that road. There should have been plastic fencing around that heiau because I didn't want them to touch that site. Mr. Iida: Well it aint there now. Ms. McMahon: I thought that because when I saw the wipe out that was probably the most unusual heiau I have ever seen and the record from Bennet, I can't remember the site number. It is a circumcision heiau. It had branch coral on the top shelf. It had been truncated by the ditch and the road and so one side had a lower platform and then the upper went into the slopes where the edge of where the quarry was supposed to go. The quarry never had gotten to that far over at May G, 2010 KA.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 19 that point in time. So -we made them do plastic fencing and actually the State did so that they weren't going to go into it. Those rocks are dense basaltic lichen rocks that were out in that area. Chair: Not field boulders? Ms. McMahon: Nope, Ms, Aiu: Nancy can you, I want to mark it on here. Ms. McMahon: So I would show you all where but I took a bunch of probably thirty five on that field trip with me and that site was still intact back then but it's coming down off the pier here where the quarry was at and it comes off to this area that's where the circumcision heiau was at. You cannot see this area right in here. But you could go there today because there is and auwai was cut through, the plantation cut through the site, cut it in half. Mr. Iida: The road you are talking about is... Ms. McMahon: The quarry gate was here. The road veered straight ahead got wiped out by a bunch of water. I don't know when this happened. The road got wiped out and then the corn guys must have made a new road around the area cause it come around. It used to go right next to the ditch and you go right from the quarry gate was there and you go on the ditch road and you could walk up there. Mr. Iida: This is below the ditch or above? Mr. McMahon: The road was above the ditch and then the ditch and then those two things cut through there and then you couldn't miss this site. Francis Ching also recorded it. Chair: Well you going to put Bennett's site number in the corridor anyway. So let's have Gerald finish having is say. Mr. Iida: The thing is even this map is, like I said, not the final area map. It's evolving and it kind of evolved as we found sites. Basically what the client wants to do is avoid sites. Chair: Yes. Mr. Fa e: We should go on a site survey. Mr. Iida: I think before, from day one, I mean the first day that we got out there it was like obvious. The road is a site cause it's over fifty years old. There is a lot of features listed on the site list have to do with the old county road and the site list is also very preliminary. That's all what we gathered from just driving down the road. We didn't even jump into the bushes at that time. We just finished the field work last wee so the report should be coming out in a few weeks. Just so you understand you know that it's not going to be a continuous five mile project and that there are sites there. Most of them are historic. A lot of them have to do with the plantation but there are a few we think are prehistoric. Basically because the project areas, I say May G, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 20 areas because they are just they don't expand way up into the gulches and is mostly stuff that has been run over by the plantation a lot. I will go back out there and specifically look for that. Ms. McMahon: In 2006 I remember because David Brown was on the field trip with me cause I drove him out there we had about thirty people. It was actually listed as one of the field trips for the SHA week and then somewhere, I have been out there about a year ago and that's when I noticed that the coil guys up there and I didn't realize they were getting that close. So I drove up the quarry road and I saw them open up the quarry road and they were using that too, I got a little nervous because I figured the protective fencing back in 2006 had already come down cause the quarry had already come down because the quarry had been shut down and so I noticed then that there had been a drastic change in that corner because it got totally wiped out. I stopped somebody they said that there was a big flood that happened and then something happened to the ditch and we had to fix it and they totally, massively bulldozed in there. And I couldn't get all the way down, I tried to look and I saw the boulders and started to climb on top of the mounds of dirt in there, but there is rock in there and that is probably from the site. Chair: My last final question I swear. The nature of subsurface activities you know as you pull certain boulders out you know there is a certain but I think that you would have a lot of time to think that through but it will come up to as the nature of subsurface activities if any, Commissioners anymore questions? We are good to go. We really appreciate the information input. I think we are going to make informed decisions when the official times comes and really appreciates everyone's patience and for being here today and aloha to the family for taking vacation for today. We understand and appreciate that. Ms. Sheehan: Thank you for the leis. Ms. Farias: If you folks have anymore, if you want me to come back have anymore questions give me a call. Chair: Definitely yes. NEW BUSINESS Re: St. Raphael Church TMK: 2- 8- 013 -004 Demolition of Old Rectory Chair: We are now under D. New Business, St, Raphael Church and we have her Kahu Contrades. Ms. Aiu: Oh wow you loosing weight you looking good. Kahu Tommy Contrades: Working hard. May G, 2010 K.HY.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 21 Chair: Welcome. Normally we save the opening remarks for you if you wish and then we can up date the Commissioners who weren't there earlier to where we are today. Kahu Contrades: I wasn't sure of the information you had so I made a few packets that you can take a look at and follow along. I think there is enough for everybody. Ms. Aiu: This is kind of what we have. Kahu Contrades: Oh you have that, that's what I thought. Ms. Aiu: Nice packet. Kahu Contrades: Similar, almost the same thing. Mr. Faye: This one has your card. Chair: Little bit different. A little bit more of the preamble of the history. Kahu Contrades: And I know somebody said that you are interested in having a little bit more information Ian so I brought the last one that we made. Chair: Nice. Kahu Contrades: And this is a copy that you can keep. Chair: And we do have a copy of that in the archives so yes. But the County needs it. We have a comprehensive file on St. Raphael Church at the Society. Kahu Contardes: So the building that we actually demolished already because it fell in is the old priest rectory. It was originally built in 1931. We had plans to try and repair it but the cost was in the neighborhood of a half a million dollars we just simply do not have that kind of money and people were actually coming to the church grounds to take wedding pictures and they got married else where. Kids would come play in it and come up and crawl on the walls and rocks started falling. First we tried to figure out if we could put a fence around it which would costs us about $6,000.00 so we said unless we are going to use the place. We talked to the parishioners for two months. We had meetings and discussed and we decided that the safest things is to knock it down. Unfortunately I had called building and asked if we needed a permit and they said no you don't and then Planning called and said oh yes you do. So I came in to get the permit. Ms. Aiu: You just asked the wrong place. Kahu Contrades: I did but we have no plans to build anything on it. We are going to change that area to parking cause our next plan is to renovate the old historic church which is going to cost May 6, 2010 K H RR.C. Meeting Minutes Page 22 us a fortune but it needs to be done because there are tremendous amounts of damage to it that. we have to take care of. Chair: Yes it's a unique landmark. If I may St. Raphael has been before the Commission in the past for other occasions. I think I am not exactly sure of the date but I know in the records we made original recommendations back then when you originally proposed the idea of removing this particular structure and normally our caveats where good photographic documentation and things like that. I don't think at this particular point we really need to review what KHPRC said at this point. We are at a new juncture right now. Commissioners any questions? Ms. Aiu: So what do you have now? Do you have a pile of rocks? Kahu Contrades: Well we took everything away. We did have a parishioner who took a complete set of pictures of everything. If you folks want it we could have CD made for you. Chair: Absolutely for the County and the County will do with that what they wish after that. But definitely one of the suggestions was any documentations that you have at this particular point can come into the public archives within the County. Kahu Contrades: I will be happy to bring that in. Ms. Aiu: I guess all the remains (inaudible). Mr. Faye: Was there any part of it that could be reused? Any rocks or any significant shapes or something. Kahu Contrades: No but the rock itself was still usable so I believe they are going to recycle that. Chair: Is the rock still on the property? Kahu Contrades: No we moved it off site but they are going to reuse it. There was no rebar in the building. Chair: No not in those days. Kahu Contrades: So it was basically all usable stuff and then beautiful rock. Chair: 4h yes. Kahu Contrades: I kept one, a big one. I didn't want the whole thing to disappear and parishioners took rocks home. Chair: I think one of the topics of discussion was the nature of the adaptive reuse if possible of the material within the community. So it looks like you have it off site and that you have unconsecrated it and so I think at this point open up to your parishioners if you can reuse the materials as much as possible. May G, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 23 Ms. Sheehan: Do you know where the rock came from? is it right in the area? Kahu Contrades: Yes, Ms. Sheehan: That's a good fundraiser, rocks are valuable. Kahu Contrades: Yes they are. Chair: Commissioners any more questions? At this particular point the recommendations so far from where we stand is that photographic documentation be submitted to the County and just to mention that the adaptive reuse of the material back into the parishioners or community. Ms. Summers: If there is anyway that you are going to be building a teeny tiny rock wall to stop cars from it would be nice to have the rocks still be on your site. Chair: Absolutely to the best extent possible to reuse the rocks within your wall structure. You have a lot of things around there. Kahu Contrades: Yes there is quite a bit of our walls that need to be repaired. Ms. Summers: That's their home. Kahu Contrades: That's true. Chair: So the motion is looking like in two parts at this particular point. Do we need a third part? Ok so someone need to motion to that effect. Ms. Summers: So moved, Chair: It's been moved and seconded? Ms. Sheehan: Second. Chair: Excuse me is there anyone in the audience that wishes to addresses St. Raphael agenda topic? (None.) Ok we are ready to vote, All in favor? (Unanimous voice vote.) Any opposed? (None.) Thank you motion passes. So now the recommendations now are essentially in those two areas right there. Do the best that you can on the adaptive reuse and keep as much as you can on the property and get the County some good documentation. Kahu Contrades: Yes I will. Thank you. Chair: We wish you the best. Thank you. May G, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 24 Re: Special Management Area Use Permit SMA(U)- 2010 -5, Rock Fall Mitigation Project for the Kalalau Trail, Tax Map Key: (4)5- 9 -1 :1, State of Hawaii, Department of Land & Natural Resources Chair: Next agenda item Special Management Area Use Permit, Rock Fall Mitigation, Kalalau, Mr. Tobias Koehler: Good afternoon I am my name is Tobias Koehler I work for AECOM Technical Services which has been contracted by the State to conduct environmental planning engineering portions of this project. The State's authorized representative for the SMA process and the various permits that I'll get into in a minute here that we have put together for this process. Please feel free to stop me at any time if you have any questions. I would like to go through a little bit of project history first and then I will stand up at the poster boards and go through kind of the story behind each of the images and we will take it from there. We are proposing to conduct a rock fall mitigation project and what that means is there is a threat of rock falls and we are trying to reduce the likelihood of that happening when people are around. It's a project that is going to last sixty days. There is various reasons for that one of them being, the primary reason being that's what we are pennitted for. The work is slated to commence on September 7, that's the Tuesday after Labor Day and run into the first week of November. We have to be, due to permit requirements, off the beach entirely by the end of October. So the first seven days of November will be wrapping things up basically. We characterize this project as a maintenance activity in the sense that it is a State Park with members of the public using it and basically we are attempting to make existing areas that are in use safer for the public to use. This whole project came about through a couple different means in as we all are aware the State is subject to or is liable for rock falls that are happening, rock falls that originate and or occur on it's properties and you are probably familiar with the Sacred Falls story on Oahu and this is a story that we are trying to prevent from happening. State Parks received a report of a rock fall incident in 2007 and at that time there were also a number of various incidents happening in various State parks and so the Developer Branch Chief went to the Legislature for an appropriation to conduct rock fall mitigation at a variety of sites. At that point the State set out to do assessments at various areas that incidents have occurred to get an idea of the risks that the State was facing. Kalalau was one of them. The assessment was done at Kalalau in 2008 and at that point it identified some high risk areas that were then immediately closed to the public. Now being that the State Parks have general lack of resources to have staff on site all the time that closure was presented to the public in the form of signage. And then subsequently additional signage was added where it's just an additional level of protection from the State legally by notifying the public that they are in an area that is dangerous and that is life threatening in fact. What we are faced with since that signage has come up is that basically every two or three months every single one of those signs is taken dowry. The continued heavy use of the direct impact areas that are highest risk and so the State Parks have decided to move forward with this May G, 2010 K,H,P,R,C, Meeting Minutcs Page 25 mitigation to minimize the impacts for public safety basically to go forward with the rock fall mitigation project. At this point if you guys don't have any questions I will step up and show you what I have. Ok so rock falls are a natural phenomenon and they occur you know with regularity in many places along the Na Pali Coast and this image here on the right is just down about a quarter mile down from Kalalau beach where there was once a cave in the `90s. Chair: I think we all remember that. Mr. Koehler: You guys all remember this closing up. Mr. Faye: The one that had the beach inside? You take the boat inside and you go in the tunnel, cave I mean. Mr. Koehler: That's actually a little bit off to the right. To give you an idea in the summer this was actually taken in the winter, in the summer you used to be able to Kalalau on the beach all along here. You would get your feet wet but you could walk along. This rock fall has actually made that a little bit trickier to do. And so this is an active phenomenon but like I will point out in a second there is a cave along the beach and perched above is a very, very large unstable block. Ms. Sheehan: Could you just explain at one point your definition of unstable is. I mean do rock fall down all day or you have gone up there and you have seen a crack that's getting bigger. What's your definition of unstable? Mr. Koehler: So what is unstable? Let's see I have an image of a cave. This is the cave at the end of Kalalau beach and perched above it right here is, this picture doesn't do it justice, is a block. The block if you were to walk under it and look up it is away from the cliff with nothing underneath it holding it up. It extends away from the cliff face about twelve to fifteen feet. And if you look in the corner you can see where rocks are falling. All along the beach fronting this cliff there is a rain of little pebbles and occasional rocks and then in this waterfall area you can tell rocks that have been there for a long time they have limu on them and then you can tell the ones that came down fresh are nice and clean. As you move across into this area here we are not proposing to clean up this area but if you look at all these kukui trees here you look on the mauka side of em the bark is totally thrashed and there are fresh scares every time I go out there. Every tree on the mauka side is totally chopped up basically. So that's what I mean about imminent and actively falling. The rock fall project consists of two, I guess three activities. One are activities to minimize impact to the side while you are doing the work, so establishing BMPs. The second is rock scaling, rock scaling is basically using o'o or crowbar workers suspend themselves from high on the cliff and work their way down in a systematically way and the knock rock loose if they appear that. they are less then fifty percent imbedded in the cliff face. So we set up the BMPs. We do the rock scaling and then the third kind of activity is the block removal. And that method May G, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 26 we are proposing is using airbags. So workers will suspend themselves from the cliff and they will show the specialized airbags into the cracks, hook it up to the compressor and the compressor will run and expand those airbags until the blocks free themselves from the cliff face. Let me step back and tell you about the BMPs or the protective measures we have planned to put in place. Due to and we design these and thought these work these keeping in mind the remoteness of the location, everything is coming in by helicopter only, and the various environmental impacts that we want to avoid basically. On the beach area we are proposing to roll out what is called a geotextile fabric, a really high -tech, high strength cloth basically. The reason we are doing that is we are responsible for the removal of everything that we bring down off the beach, out of the stream area. That is what our permit says and that is what we are willing to do and that is what the contractors bid on and they said that they could do it. So the beach areas will have a cloth laid out they will form the line. I am not going to say that the cloth is going to hold up perfectly but it will say that was brought down by us, we will take it out verses what was there already. In the stream area and I have a close up photo of that in a minute. From the base of the waterfall we are proposing to run a pipe down the existing stream bed so it will capture water at the base of the waterfall and run the water to where it runs down to the beach and on top of that pipe we would layout the geotextile fabric again and that would basically again draw the line between the existing material verses what we are responsible for bringing down and are responsible for moving out. All the material that is brought down obviously there are going to be bigger than a person could lift and so we are going to allow, we are planning on allowing a jack hammer or some sort of tool to crack rock so that it can be put into a bag. And these bags, as they fill the bags a helicopter will lift them and bring them over to a receiving area that is designated over behind the state cabin and behind the existing compost stations. The reason why we picked this receiving area is because there are archeological, exposed archeological features here and we didn't want to disturb kukui trees. The receiving area, except for one kukui tree here, is predominately java plum and most of them have a six inch diameter trunk or less and we would have to clear that for a helicopter to safely maneuver in instead of bag down and empty it. The receiving area is at the base of the cliff where there is active rock slides happening. We will be adding to a pile of rockslide that is essentially already there. This is for reference only, this is the helipad where the State Parks staff come and go to service the comfort stations. These two roof tops that you see are maintenance sheds. They are really just a wooden box with locks on them. The comfort stations are eventually going to be moved. I was talking earlier about areas that are currently closed to the public yet actively used. Basically from this point forward there is signage saying closed do not enter for this whole vegetated area all the way till here. There is no instruction but it is implied that users are supposed to move out onto the beach where the rock fall engineers have said that, that is out of the area of trajectory of falling rocks and walk the beach over to the waterfall. There is signage that keeps getting May 6, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 27 removed over by the waterfall saying that you should not be spending anytime in there at all. Do what you gotta do and leave again. You can see tents here. It is explicitly prohibited to camp here yet people continue to camp here. And so the State Parks are really faced with the issue of continued use and the rock fall hazard. You can see on this image where the kukui trees kind of the start and the rock fall mitigation stops. You might ask why did we not continue the rock fall mitigation on this face continue on here. This project is not a silver bullet. We are not putting up meshing or anything like that to actually secure the slope. We are going to accelerate nature over a course sixty days. Do something that might take about ten years worth of erosion to happen. We are going to try and concentrate it in one effort over sixty days so that less of it will happen for the coming year basically. The goal is to allow people to traverse this area to get to the water cause they are always going to do it and then leave again. The goal is not to reopen this area for camping. These comfort stations there are plans in the works to move them further in that direction so that and that's a whole different project, a whole different time. It could be more than a year away just to get the people pressure away from here. Everybody comes here now because the toilets are there. They see everybody camping here. Various long term residents have built walls and cool little pads for you to set up your tents on and this and that. They have made it very attractive and the State is trying to make it less attractive to camp right here. Chair: Commissioners are there any other questions? Ms. Sheehan: I have a questions when you take down block one and block two, when you do this airbag do you expect a big chunk to come down or do you think it's just going to disintegrate and come down with lots of rock. Mr. Koehler: There is two extremes right. The whole thing comes down as one big block and then there is the other extreme that comes raining down as little bits. It definitely will not come down as a bunch of little bits. It will definitely not come down as one gigantic block either. Beyond that I can't tell you because the airbags will go in there they will all expand to fill the different cracks at different speeds. The block will feel different pressures and depending on cracks that you can or cannot see right now giving sooner or later. Ms. Sheehan: I guess what I am leaning to is if you say block one so I was thinking in the beginning that it was one block. Now I am getting it a little clearer. If only half of it comes down do you have a back up plan is that airbag doesn't get it all. I mean are you going to just keep working until you... Mr. Koehler: If there is no cracks to put any airbags into the effort is done. So for project planning purposes we estimated or we took a laser cut and assumed the worst the biggest volume that essentially will come down. So let's talk about the blocks a little bit more the reason that it is of an imminent hazard is they have a fisher that is continuous all the way around. And they don't have any bottom support meaning if you stand underneath they extend out away from the Cliff. May b, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 28 So it's difficult to tell during this removal process if we put the airbags in how deep those cracks go and how much will come off. It's very possible that it will chip bits off and there won't be a crack to put in and then the effort is done. Up to there literally being a crack all the way through. It is similar situation with block two you can actually see how it is dropping pieces on the beach as we speak as well. There is rain of debris that comes in the cliff face and we were out there two weeks ago and everybody wants to walk in the shade so where do they go? They walk as close to the cliff as they can and they don't wonder why there is a whole bunch of pebbles on the sand. We put a sign here. During the project we are not taking reservations. The State is not flaking reservation for camping starting September 7ti'. The area will be closed. It will be closed as far back as Hanakoa which is the next there is three main segments of the Kalalau Trail. We are closing Hanakoa because that is where the next comfort station is available for public use is. So we are not taking reservations. It will be physically closed to the extent possible signage and construction fencing even though there are going to be some people that might not be hiking in from the trail head during those sixty days. They will find out quickly because there will be signage and construction fencing. You know the orange or something visible. Let's see questions have come up was what is this construction crew how big is it and what kind of operation is it. We received multiple bids on this project. The biggest crew proposed was twelve individuals the smallest was eight. We have various ideas on how they were going to do the work meaning the crew of twelve were going to fly in everyday and work eight to five. That's your kuleana not mine. Mr. Faye: Are you primarily talking airbags or would you use.. . Mr. Koehler: Ok on the area shaded in yellow and green it's all o'o. For the block one/block two they will start with the airbag and they will finish with the o'o. Basically they will clean it up. In terns of the methods that they are going to use airbags are only slated for the blocks. The o'o will happen in the shaded area. I can't imagine them not doing a little bit of work with o'o on the block areas once they have attempted to remove that. Mr. have: Another question is that when you got these big glaciers that have slipped killed all those (inaudible) they used dynamite up there to knock off the loose stuff. so they don't have those avalanches they blasts them with small controlled blasts. Chair: No dynamite. Mr. Koehler: This project will be purely mechanical. Chair: Because of the potential of bringing a lot more down. We were out last summer when they were doing live fire exercises and it was moving the whole mountain around. Yes so any dynamite would be futile. May 6, 2010 K.H.P.R.C, Meeting Minutes Page 29 Mr. Koehler: That's not even on the table. We are not even going to use anything chemical to do the expansion. So it has to be jack hammered because the rocks are being moved some place that is also on the coast. They are not being hauled out so we can't have a whole punch of epoxy sitting around in a field of rocks that we have broken and spread out here. We can't have something like that. That's not part of this operation, Chair: And then to your knowledge what sites are actually going to be affected. Do you have these on the lower side right there. The rock fall it won't be coming near those sites? Mr. Koehler: Ok let me talk about so block one is perched above the waterfall. There is no mystery and that this area here will receive direct impacts from the rock fall operation. The nearest surface archeological feature is actually right here at most and the archeologist Alan Carpenter that was out with us on multiple trips now at most this site would receive an indirect. Chair: Has he mapped the site? Mr. Koehler: He was actually the one that mapped. Chair: Ok this side is not currently mapped? Mr. Koehler: In the SMA application it is very well documented. What has happened here and that is why we selected the receiving area where it is. In here where people are camping there used to be lots and lots of features. The campers and various long term residents have heavily altered this area. In fact the walls that you see in and around these kukui trees are actually all new walls. This feature here is a reminent of a, wall and people are camping right next to it. And without a vertical shot basically... Chair: Your geotextile use of course you are putting out there you wouldn't consider actually laying it over the side? Would that help? As long as you have a good map of it so incase anything happens to it at least we have a good record of it. Mr. Koehler: The plan would be for Alan to go out and flag the area and take a picture of it and if anything showed up in it we know what we can take out of it kind of thing. It wasn't including for the matting simply because the matting you know it is very easy to imagine on the beach when you roll it out. In this stream bed area we are really having to remove vegetation against our will but that's just what has to be done and the reason we have to remove the vegetation is because it has to lay flat. There are date palms in there that somebody brought in and you can't lay a mat over it essentially and I guess we are just trying to limit the extent of our impacts as much as we can. And aside from inspecting it before, during and after we are not seeing this one wall here receiving an impact from rocks falling. Chair: Yes a direct hit. Commissioners any more questions? Mr. Faye: No good idea though. May G, 2010 K.HY R.G, Meeting Minutes Page 30 Ms. Sheehan: I have one more question, block two at this point you are not expecting anything to come down and roll down into the water? You don't expect it to? Mr. Koehler: Let me tell you a little bit about that. That's a good point, This is a person. Ms. Sheehan: I can't see that. Mr. Koehler: That's how small it is. We were out there two weeks ago and the beaches are already three hundred feet wide. That means by the end of the summer when we start this work the beach is going to be like three hundred fifty and four hundred feet wide. This, any of this material coming down is not going to be going much further away from the cliff then what you see where these blocks are. This is about fifty feet probably closer to forty /fifty feet away from the cliff base and that's because there is not going to be the action to push things away from the cliff face. It's all going to be straight fall, like it's going to come down. You know whether it hits a rock and ricochets out a little bit the trajectory is very close to the cliff face essentially. Rocks are heavy. Chair: Before we start into the recommendations welcome Nancy I am glad to see you in your seat. Is there anything you wish to address on this? Ms. McMahon: No I think State Parks did a pretty good job in trying to put it together as they work out some stuff. They have been working on the Na Pali Coast projects a lot. Chair. Ok good before I call for audience. Ms. Summers: I notice that you have got the report on all the archeological sites are there any cultural tradition about this area, about any of these rocks including the rock faces. I saw that meetings were held in Hanalei and Kekaha I was wondering if they had contacted any of the families to whom Kalalau belong. Mr. Koehler: We held the meetings there were not well attended. We, despite having put ads in the newspaper and we put ads in the newspaper as long as over a year ago just to get people aware of what's going on especially because right at the beginning somebody slipped in dynamite somewhere and the phone started ringing. To my knowledge we did not contact any families that can trace their family lineage to this area. Alan Carpenter was out with us and he did look at the cliffs using binoculars besides any closed lava tubes it did not appear that there were any anthropogenically closed lava tubes. If there is something in there it has been covered naturally at most and I am trying to think what he told me basically was that most of the activity in the Kalalau area focused near the Kalalau Stream which is over in Kalalau Valley. And that yes Loi did extend all the way across over to here and there were features over here that the density of activity was more toward the Kalalau Valley portion. I know I am not answering your question. Ms. Summers: Yes because you are still talking about archeological. There are some sites such as Na Keiki 0 Na Iwi where the rock itself, I don't want to say sacred but traditions has May 6, 2010 K.I3.RR.C. Meeting Minutes Page 31 meaning, is it's own entity. Has there been any consultation with the people who are familiar with the traditions of that valley to find out about those particular rock faces. Mr. Koehler: You know with all the outreach we have been doing nobody had come forward and offered that kind of information to us. Ms. Summers: You said you had not contacted the families. Mr. Koehler: We have not made direct calls to families. Ms. Summers: That was one of my concerns the other concern I realize that the place is heavily used and because I have been to other places where people don't like realize that when there is rocks up above they fall down and they take responsibility of that. So I realize that it ,is necessary for safety. You were talking about rock falls are natural and that you would just be accelerating nature, why do you need to remove all the rocks from the area? It would be natural to be there. Mr. Koehler: Clean water act. Believe it or not the people of the United State owns everything up to the face of the cliff, the highest wash of the waves. The clean water act says you cannot pollute the water. When you are dropping the rock on the beach in the summer when in the winter the waves come up to the cliff face it's polluting the water. Ms. Summers: You are kidding. Mr. Koehler: I am not kidding. It's the same permitting effort that we require to put in a new harbor as in the dredging. It's the same level permitting effort as doing something like that. So we have opted for a permit that wants us to do temporary in the dry basically in the summer. Ms. Summers: I am just concerned about the human interference with the beach which happens as soon as somebody hikes in the Kalalau. Chair: 4k if you don't mind is there anybody in the audience... Mr. Faye: I have one more question, this one picture here I am not sure there is a huge rock fall right there. Mr. Koehler: That is the one that I wanted to mention in the 1990s it closed the cave. Chair: Actually the photograph we have seen was actually done in the summer. These are actually done in the winter photographs so the waves are coming right up to it. Mr. Fave: Jack Harter did a whole bunch of pictures. The next day he came by and he showed us the pictures it doesn't look like the same rock fall. It's a different angle obviously. Mr. Koehler: And it's been out there for (inaudible). May G, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 32 Mr Faye: The gave that used to go all the way through right here we used to put the boat on the beach where this rock fall is and then you go through the cave and you come out on the main beach. Ms. Sheehan: That's Hanapu though? Mr. Faye: No, no, no in the early days before any rock fall it was that little beach there and it was the only safe place to land you boat if there were swells. So you land you boat over here and you crawl through the tunnel and you come out the other cave. It goes all the way through. In the 1940s and 50s. Mr. Koehler: One picture of the... Chair: Alan grew up on the coast he knows it. He also assisted on several archeological surveys done in the 50s which I am going to briefly mention but after we have heard from the audience. Mr. I was just wondering eventually would the State be looking at Honopu, Milolii and lnay maybe Nualolo Kai for the same kind of rock hazard. Mr. Koehler: I highly doubt that because the small user population. Chair: Is there anybody in the audience who wishes to address the Kalalau situations? (Inaudible, tape change). One is that the State Park Archeologist is there to monitor during the entire process or when he is not there someone that State Parks Archeology designates with the proper credentials that are there. At this particular point we know that the State Park Arch, Alan Carpenter is going to be on station but we where hoping that when he is not there also that they can either through SHPD or State Parks assign that position, so qualified arch if at all possible. Mr. Koehler: With all due respect this has been something that we have discussed at length and more than one party has thought that, that level of oversight would be over kill given the general absence of archeological. Chair: Yes a qualified arch I can see that happening. How about a cultural arch, a cultural person, cultural monitor assigned by State Parks or SHPD. Mr. Koehler: You know it's, we have seriously considered that and it, we would only do so with great hesitation simply because of the remoteness of site and the great cost of doing something like that. Chair: Yes Nancy. Ms. McMahon: Could I ask so it's sixty days straight? The time frame, you guys start and end in sixty days. Mr. Koehler: Yes correct, it's a sixty calendar day operation. One contractor said they were going to take weekends off and we are like ok if you want to get the work done. That's fine. May 6, 2010 KRP.R.G, Meeting Minutes Page 33 The other one said his crew would stay in for a week and he would rotate people through for breaks. Ms. McMahon: Can I, I don't know the work plan or how it is set up. A thought would be to have an archeologist at the beginning. Sometimes we do that. And the pull off and then come back in when they do the next phase and then do a follow up. Chair: So in no way are you contemplating cultural participation in this? Mr. Koehler: We had hoped that someone would come forward through all the outreach we have been doing and indicate the level of I guess cultural oversight that they would feel be necessary. And nobody has done that so far. We have relied on Alan Carpenter to give us the level of effort he would expect if a third party project were to come in like this and what lie would expect. We had discussed having him go out in the beginning and flag off the culturally sensitive, the archeological features take pictures of it and then come in periodically throughout the project to ensure that what is happening basically is happening and that those sites remain undisturbed, as part of our walk through at the end document. Chair: So I take it no oversight from the public in any way, shape or form is considered? Mr. Koehler: It's, the other thing we are dealing with a rock fall project and its. Chair: Oh yes we know the people on the cliff are in serious danger. What we are talking about is the standard operating procedure in the rest of the Pacific where the options for cultural participation be it in the form of one individual or two individuals essentially is there as a second set of eyes under SHPD, under State Parks of course. And they would handle that part of it. I think it would go a great deal in relieving some of the pressure that he community feels. And I think within the Kalalau situation if you knew its history you would know families were evicted on pain of death of returning or their participation in 1893 for Koolau so all these families were scattered to the winds. Now we know of some of the families we can point to this lineal descendents. None of these families are really going to be coming out without actually going into seeking them out. That's just standard operating procedure in Polynesia in general right but if there was a way to consider that a little more seriously I think we would appreciate it. I think Kauai as a general would feel a lot easier because once you start the general noise gets out the rumors are starting to move through the island now which happens. Nothing really happens on this island eventually before everybody knows about it. So I am kind of concern at this particular point that the ones who weren't aware of this would be coming out at that particular point. I think these families would feel a lot better if they knew that there would be qualified cultural monitors and I think Alan would be able to give you a list of some of our professionals. They are really good. They are highly trained. They know the Na Pali, They know the chants and prayers. They know all the mete and oli and things like that but at the same time will not get in your way or in your hair what so ever in anyway would it slow the project down. And I think as a means to relieve some of the pressure that may be coming May G, 2010 K,H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 34 once people are aware would help a lot because people would be a lot more apt to listen to the cultural monitor then any representation of government. That is something to consider. Another one too is that in that I congratulate you in the professional aspects of your photography here. If you can continue it in the documentation form of this rock fall in the form of two hundred or three hundred. Nancy or Holly could I think could define. Not a pure HABS standard but you know documentation that would go to SHPD, County of Kauai and State Parks. Those are essentially the three entities where this documentation would go so there is a good photographic record of this right and I think that would go a long way also in being able to alleviate the pressure. Lots of people would say this would be a good video documentary but we are not going to go that far. So the other one is for you to consider would be really good documentation that would be submitted to SHPD, County cause they are involved and State Parks. Mr, Koehler: Yes I don't think, this is going to be very visible. People come from all, this is the postcard that everybody sees first of Hawaii. Chair: A lot of local families move through this coast so the news is going to be really heavy duty. One individual that I would say right off the bat that you would consider talking about that would be Patty Boy Malama. From Patty Boy you know cause this is the, the Malama's were the old families that moved out but many families are still using the cost. But he is one of them right there that for example you know if Patty Boy was to you know come in for a visit you know allow him for example to visit that would take any pressure off any of the cultural would come up. He would save you a lot in the long run so I wish you would consider that. Mr. Koehler: There was no intent to, if a cultural practitioner came forward and we wanted to be able to accommodate the access issue and that part of the reason we were trying to drum up that this project was coming for as long as we have been trying to drum it up was so that we could accommodate that in the project schedule. Chair: If a cultural practitioner on their own decided that they felt a kuleana here I don't think there is any law that can actually stop that. Yes so there is no law in the book that would stop a cultural practitioner from coming in anyways if he felt the need for it so therefore another reason for an official monitor. I agree that you don't need a professional archeologist throughout the entire thing. You need it at the beginning. You need in the middle and definitely at the end to sign off on everything. Yes I see that but a cultural monitor I think would be any ways I have made that point already. Commissioners anymore questions? Mr. lave: Last question would be with all the documentation which is mostly photographic right. Would there be a written report describing the whole process and what the end result was? Mr. Koehler: At this point aside from you, I think you are right it is mostly going to be pictures. Engineers will sign off that the work was performed correctly. The archeologist will come out at the end and make sure that things are the way that they were when the project was, from the onset of the project. 1 don't think as of now that any report per say is planned for the project. On the various permits we do have to explain what we do and when we did it and how we did it and May 6, 2010 K.H,P,RG, Meeting Minutes Page 35 how we left it. You know beyond that and that being a couple pages long nothing more than that was planned. Mr. Faye: That would be enough information for reference later when you are working on other mitigation methods that worked, methods that didn't work, that you used an o'o and you used the air and whatever. Those kinds of results of how successful it was, those kinds of answers. Chair: I believe the County, Ian? Mr. Costa: Yes in the SMA review by the Planning Commission one of the conditions was to follow up and come back in October to give an update on the outcome of the project. Chair: There is a fall back plan in the event that something comes up. Mr. Costa: We can forward you that report. Chair: Yes because there is a fall back plan that in the event something comes up and you are not able to finish within this window you have a second window in the spring already. So the County already requires reporting at the end of the October period. But obviously the form of the report has not been defined. Ms. McMahon: Just a question the rock that you are collecting you are hauling it out? Mr. Koehler: No it's moving to the yellow area. Ms. McMahon: In a mound? Mr. Koehler: It will be so it's already a slope at the base of the cliff and so we are going to fill it in basically it's going to make the are look more like it is right now already. Chair: Anymore questions in the audience. (None.) Commissioners are you ok with the recommendations? 1 think at this particular point there is really only two as far as the mahele records I know that further study Alan has been doing a pretty good job with it. I just found the original Hanohano Pa's oral history done by Marian (inaudible). Another one that records the Kalalau one is done by Tiare Emery. This is Emery he's married to a Tahitian women, he has his daughter and spent quite a bit of time. You were there. Also recording she does the most beautiful study of Kalalau. Ms, Summers: Ilanohano Pa there is an interview with Pukui someone who names every single bend of that trail and every rock. Chair: Yes I went through it yesterday but a lot of it was inaudible according to the transcript itself. So I am making that available to Al and so he is aware of a lot of the materials but again the families were fractional and scattered to the winds. So it's a little bit difficult. Howevers once the news gets out on the west and north with all that you have already. But just in case if SIIPD or State Parks wishes to consider the option for cultural monitor. May b, 2010 K.]-TRIC, Meeting Minutes Page 36 Mr, Fare: John Hanohano Pa he was actually born in Kalalau. Chair: Yes 1888. Mr. Fave: Sometimes he would take the trail and sometimes he would swim back and forth. Chair: Which is Bernard Carvalho's great grandfather; anways the descendents are her on the island. There are many, many more right. So let's close it up. We are ready move. Mr. Faye: Do you. need a motion? Chair: Yes essentially at this point if you are ok with it which was to consider the monitor because we know Alan is going to be doing what he needs to be doing what he needs to be doing as a professional right there but to explore the option of it. And the second one was the photographic documentation. Mr. Faye: And then to the extent possible as much written documentation Ian said there was some report coming out too. So that would be how well it worked and what didn't work and if they moved some of the project to next year. Chair: Well good I think at this point Nancy could define the written aspect of it more so at a later point. Mr. Faye: So the motion would be that. Chair: Yes. Ms. Sheehan: I so move. Chair: It's been moved and... Mr. Faye: I'll second. Chair: Moved and seconded any further discussions? (None.) All in favor? (Unanimous voice vote.) Any opposed (None.) Ms. Sheehan: Thank you. Mr. Fave: Thank you for a good job of presenting it. Chair: Yes I appreciate the layout. I always appreciate good photography, good documentation. Yes I like the way you guys laid it out. Ms. Aiu: I have a file at home that I kept when I first started this Commission from back in the `80s and I keep all of these things. It's great to have. May 6, 2010 K.H.P,R,C. Meeting Minutes Page 37 Mr. Koehler: Great it's been a pleasure thank you guys. SELECTION OF NEXT MEETING DATE AND AGENDA TOPICS The next KHPRC Meeting is scheduled on Thursday, July 1, 2010. ADJOURNMENT The meeting was adjourned at 5;15 p.m. Respectfully Submitted, *hnIee Jilxlene9 Secretary Date: JUL O 12010