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HomeMy WebLinkAboutjan 7 min KAUAI COUNTY HISTORIC PRESERVATION REVIEW COMMISSION Lihue Civic Center, Moikeha Building, Meeting Room 2A/2B MINUTES A regular meeting of the Kaua` i County Historic Preservation Commission (KHPRC) was held on January 7, 2010 in the Lihue Civic Center, Moikeha Building, Meeting Room 2A/2B. The following Commissioners were present: Patsy Sheehan, Molly Summers, Danita Aiu, Dennis Alkire, and Randy Wichman. The following Commissioner was absent: Alan Faye, Jr. and Kehaulani Kekua. CALL TO ORDER Commissioner Sheehan called the meeting to order at 3 : 08 p.m. SELECTION OF 2010 CHAIRPERSON AND VICE CHAIRPERSON Ms. Sheehan: And the first order of business is the selection of the 2010 Chairman and Vice Chairman. So nominations are now open. Ms. Aiu: I would like to nominate Randy Wichman for Chairman. Ms. Summers: Second. Ms. Aiu: And Vice Chairman? Mr. Wichman: Yes we can do it all in one motion I think. Well let's do it one at a time. Ms. Summers : I move that we close the nominations for Chair. Ms. Sheehan: Ok all in favor of Randy Wichman being the new chair for the year 2010. (Unanimous voice vote.) All opposed? (None.) We would also like to open nominations for the Vice Chairperson. Mr. Wichman: I would like to nominate Danita Aiu as the Vice Chair. Ms. Sheehan: Any other nominations? Mr. Alkire : I move that nominations be closed. January 7, 2010 K.H.P.12.C. Meeting Minutes Page 2 Ms . Sheehan: Ok so the vote for Vice Chairman Danita Aiu. All in favor? (Unanimous voice vote). Opposed? (None.) Thank you, both of you. APPROVAL OF THE AGENDA Chairperson Wichman: I wasn't expecting this but here we go. Motion to approve the agenda. Ms. Aiu: So moved. Ms. Sheehan: Second. Chair: It ' s been moved and seconded any changes to the order of the agenda? Hearing none all in favor? (Unanimous voice vote). Any opposed? (None). Thank you. APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES Chair: We now need a motion to approve the minutes from November 5 , 2009 , Ms. Sheehan: I so move. Mr. Alkire: Second, Chair: It' s been moved and seconded any changes to the minutes? (None) . All in favor? (Unanimous voice vote). Opposed? (None) . Thank you. ANNOUNCEMENTS AND GENERAL BUSINESS MATTERS Chair: Announcements and General Business Matters? Ricky? I think one of em is Ricky Tsuchiya is now retired and we wish him the very best in life. Normally Ricky has under announcements and general business matters anything that is for consideration. COMMUNICATIONS Re: Letter (12/2/09) from PBR Hawaii & Associates, Inc. requesting comments on the Draft Environmental Assessment (EA) for the Haena State Park Individual Wastewater System Improvements which was prepared in compliance of the State of Hawaii EIS Law (Hawaii Revised Statutes, Chapter 343) and the State of Hawaii EIS rules (Administrative Rules, Title 11 , Chapter 200). Chair: Item B, Communications a letter from PBR Hawaii requesting comments draft environmental assessment for the Haena State Park. Anybody here for Haena? January 7. 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 3 Mr. Costa: Chair we do have staff member Lisa Ellen and she is ready to answer any questions. Chair: Just to, yea please come forward. Staff: I was requested to write the response to the draft EA that has been submitted by PBR today is the deadline for comments, for submission however I did speak to the applicant and said that you know there was a meeting today and if this committee had any comments I would be happy to relay them on to them. Chair: I am already committed in writing in this report already. So my comments are included in the report and SHPD, PBR are well aware of my particular position. Commissioners any questions? Staff: I will be honest I can really only answer as it pertains to the Special Management Area and the General Plan. Chair: That' s why we are reviewing it because they need the SMA permits and because County will issue the SMA that' s why it's in our particular purview at this particular point. We do not have SHPD comments available to us now as we would normally on projects like this. Ms . Sheehan: So I guess I just wanted to clear up the Haena State Park constructed in wetland what is the timeline for that? Staff: I am not but the applicant State Parks I understand does have a timeline and deadline. Their funding, actually Chipper Wichman may be better able to answer this question. I believe its June and I hate to defer to someone else but he is actually more familiar with. Chair: Absolutely. Chipper if you don' t mind. He is not here for the Haena project. Staff: I understand and I apologize to ask but he is very familiar. Mr. Chipper Wichman: Well you can blame ;;zee for the Haena because it was my idea to do the subsurface construction in wetlands because they were essentially dumping raw sewage on our iwi kupuna so it' s something we cooked up. They do have to let the contract or the money will lapse by June. And they can let the contract without the necessary permits but of course that creates a whole lot of ambiguity because permit conditions are generally costed into the contract. So the goal is to get through the Planning Commission SMA part of it before so there won't be any surprised conditions attached to the contract. Chair: And then you have attended every one of the community meetings and then the general feeling of the community in the remediation of the wetlands? Mr. Chipper Wichman: Well you know the solution came out of a contested case hearing before the Planning Commission and at that time we negotiated the settlement all of the individuals who filed in a contested case hearing were supportive of it. Over the last few months one of them in particular has kind of backed away from supporting it and his position was, I understand his January 7. 20 10 K H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 4 position, is that he would prefer to not have a comfort station at all in that location. And I think you know in a perfect world we all agree. It' s a sacred area. It' s probably not appropriate for a comfort station or any kind of a wastewater treatment facility in such a sacred area however unless we are willing to stop all the visitors from coming to Haena State Park you have got to have someplace you know what goes in comes out and those guys either going in the ocean or in the bushes, they going somewhere. So at the end of the negotiations in our initial negotiations with State Parks I would say they are open and willing to discuss removal of the comfort station if we could find an alternative location that would facilitate. If it' s too far away it's not going to work because they are just going to go in the bushes or the ocean. So in the end we all agreed, we all agreed that unless we are going to close Haena State Park to visitors we needed a comfort station and that this was the best solution. The individual who has kind of backed away from supporting it as I said would prefer not to have anybody come there. And some of the concerns that they are raising is environmental preservation under extreme flooding events could potentially some of the sewage material that is being treated could perhaps get into the loi system which the community is in process of restoring. It' s typical in many of these things, this road and if you look at a topography map it' s impossible. You know the one thing that I learned from a plumber friend of mine is you know that word that starts with "S", this "S" flows down hill and it won' t flow up hill and the loi are in a higher elevation than either the loko which could be contaminated under a catastrophic flooding event but it's very unlikely because all of the sewage is actually underground it' s not like sewage treatment plant. So I think that as in many cases you would probably never get everybody to support something like this but environmentally it does represent the best solution that technology has available today to deal with something like this. It's a challenging site to work with because of the wet lands, the loko that's there, the cultural sites. While you don't have the SHPQ report I will say that Allan Carpenter and his team from State Parks have been right there every step of the way as Nancy has so it is being sited to have a minimal impact as possible on existing and known and historic features. Chair: Any discussion on the actual mitigation of the cultural layers as they create the septic system? Mr. Chipper Wichman: The hope is that, I mean something to keep in mind is the existing septic system that is really impacting the cultural layers will not be moved or touched. It' s not going to be excavated and removed. And in fact it will be there as an emergency back up should the new system fail you can pull a switch and dump the effluent back into the old leach field. The new system is designed to be above the cultural layers if at all possible and it's also sited away from the dune as much as possible so that the depth of excavation that is needed, part of it is built up January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 5 and part of it isn't should and nobody knows until you actually get in there it should hopefully not be in the sand layer hopefully more in the (inaudible). Chair: But it puts it closer to the loko side of it. Mr. Chipper Wichman: Yes it does. That was the challenges to get it away from the areas that we know are intensively used and probably where the iwi kupuna are we had to go closer to the wetland which pose enviromnental challenges cause everything had to be set back. Chair: Yes it seems curious to me that the reason we are re-punching through cultural layers is because this particular cesspool system is leaking affluent into burial grounds but yet the intent to keep it open for emergency use so they are not really, what about the idea of permanently closing? Mr. Chipper Wichman: The challenge is technology is never been used for public facilities like this. It's been used successfully for the slaughter house on Oahu. It's been used throughout the world in terms of application here in the State of Hawaii it' s a relatively untested technology. So when you are dealing with an area that has such high visitor use you know it' s not like we can, you know the last time they had to bring in like twelve porta-potties and you know that was a disaster. So the prudent thing was to leave the existing system in place and its there as an emergency backup. There is no, to remove it would actually further disturb the cultural layer so there is a little bit of discussion. Eventually say three, four, five years from now when this system has proven its ability I think that we could open that discussion but there isn't a really huge historic advantage to going in and removing the existing leach field. Chair: I wasn't considering that we remove it but to close it permanently but maybe in four years but there must be some sort of language that reflect that idea. Mr. Chipper Wichman: I think probably the appropriate vehicle for that is the actual master plan. PBR is the consultant for this. This is really a stand alone project not specifically to master plan. And I think the master plan would be the right vehicle to address long term improvement of that. Chair: And then of course when you look at something in the real long term, let' s say in twenty years that bathroom is not going to handle the capacity of Haena and so therefore you are going to have to double, triple the footprint there. Mr. Chipper Wichman: I hope not. Chair: Hopefully within the master plan there is a new bathroom further up. Mr. Chipper Wichman: Yes but the master plan, the primary goal at least for the community the master plan, till the master plan is done nobody knows it' s a wild card, is to actually scale back use and not to allow to escalate in the future. The problem with Haena let's just say you put up a January 7, 2010 KAT.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 6 gate and you scale it back and you say ok we are only going to let a thousand people a day in here. When you are the on thousand and first person you can park anywhere and walk in. You know you can walk in along the beach. I mean it' s not like the area is going to be fenced in. It' s pretty porous. So I think that the primary way to control users in the park is vehicle access. If people can't go in and park they will probably turn around. These are destinations. End of the road. The want to check it off, I have been there and done that and they want to leave. You know if it' s closed. It's at capacity. They will probably turn around and leave. Our community's hope is that we won't see an escalation in use over the next twenty years because it' s already way, way over done. In fact it needs to be, in my opinion, needs to be scaled back at least fifty percent. I don't know if we will achieve that. Chair: Yes. Ms. Sheehan: So what is the capacity that you are planning at this point right now? Mr. Chipper Wichman: It' s planned for the plan for the actual use based on numbers. And I think we have done a number of things. Vehicle counts. Individual counts. The number of flushes on the toilet and probably the most important way that they gauged that was actual water use, the meter, how much use the existing facility had they could determine the amount of flushes. I think it' s, I didn't know this was on the agenda, but I think it' s slotted for three thousand people a day right now so it' s sized for existing capacity and then a little bit more because environmental health requires that you have a buffer. Ms. Sheehan: And I read some of this but I am probably remised in knowing when you put the new system in how do you test it? Is it a percolation test? How do you test that even though you built it all. Mr. Chipper Wichman: It' s a water quality measure. What should be coming up on the other side is like the R-3 quality water which could be used for irrigation. Which is great, so in other ways you are still going to have water percolating into the dune but what's going to be coming out is treated water and plants. I mean this is what natural systems do. Is they actually take, those are nutrients coming out of that thing and they are actually using it to grow plants instead of just dumping it underground onto our sacred sites or in some cases in an area like that, that effluent is going down and could be migrating into the ocean. We are not seeing algae blooms and things but that' s the kind of things would happen with near shore nitrification and nonpoint source pollution is still pretty interesting science we are still trying to understand. Ms. Sheehan: Thank you. Pretty good for. . . (laughter in the background). Mr. Chipper Wichman: Well I spent a lot of years working on this one. Ms. Sheehan: Thank you. January 7, 201.0 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 7 Chair: Commissioners anymore questions? We would like to open this to the public, anybody in the public wish to address this issue? (None.) Ok let' s make a motion and then we will call one more time for public input. Ms. Aiu: We need to accept the communication right? Chair: Yes. Ms. Aiu: So moved. Chair: It's been moved to accept the communication, do we have a second? Mr. Alkire: I second it. Chair: It' s been moved and seconded any further discussion? (None). And then we can make specific comments after that, once we have accepted the record. If we have a second set of motions then we can do it at that point but right now the motion is to accept into the record. Any further discussion on the motion? (None). All in favor? (Unanimous voice vote) . Ok any specific recommendations at this particular point? It would help a great deal if we had SHPD comments at this particular point. Ms. Sheehan: Could we ask to review their report? Chair: SHPD comments probably will not be in. It sounds like they are on a timeline so it' s not going to go any further than this moment right now so if we had any particular comments at this particular time now is the time to make it. I think at this particular time I think one of the motions could be that KHPRC has no particular comment at this particular time pending SHPD and that we can defer to Planning that should SHPD be at that particular time raise certain flags in regards to the SMA permit then they can deal with it at that level: Because I do believe the County has reservations already but they are waiting for the SHPD comments. Ms. Aiu: So moved. You got it Shan? Chair: Yes I can go over it again. Moved, second anybody? Ms. Sheehan: Second. Chair. Any comments from the public, anybody wishing to address the specifics of this motion? (None). Thank you. Any further discussions? (None) . All in favor? (Unanimous voice vote). Any opposed? (None). Thank you. January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 8 UNFINISHED BUSINESS Re: Letter (10/14/09) from James Niermann, AICP, Senior Planner, R.M. Towill Corporation requesting Section 106 National Historic Preservation Consultation for the Nawiliwili-Ahukini Share&Use Path, Job No. 20987, Lihue, Kauai, Hawaii. Letter (12/3/09) from James Niermann, AICP, Senior Planner, R.M. Towill responding to issues that were raised in the KHPRC Meeting on November 5, 2009. Chair: We are now under unfinished business letter from James Niermann and I see people in the audience here that will be addressing this. This is in regards to the consultation to the Nawiliwili-Ahukini shared use path. Within it also is the letter from James Niermann responding to issues that were raised in our last meeting. Dough Haigh thank you. Mr. Doug Haigh: Good afternoon Doug Haigh, Public Works and I believe Mimi. Chair: Missy Kamai. Ms. Missy Kamai : Good afternoon and happy new year. Chair: Now you want to review our comments from the last meeting? Mr. Haigh: I think Jim' s letter you know pretty much addressed all the issues and we are here to listen to you folks and try to assist you if you have any further questions . Chair: To carry on in our last meeting I was essentially tasked to find out the exact location of Ahukini Heiau. After consulting with many different people it came down to the Kaohelaulii family who said that the Ahukini Heiau is located above the pier itself. And that makes sense because we are looking at the full name Ahukinialaa and I know there was a particular mention that the heiau Ahukini was between the lighthouse and Hanamaulu Bay itself. After taking a look at that nothing in the records, no comments indicates that the heiau is between the lighthouse and the bay and because of this one source that locates it and it makes sense that it's actually right there. The area has been heavily impacted. It' s off the bike path corridor right now and therefore not an issue. Anything else in the letter? Can you bring up something specific in the letter that you wish to address? Mr. Haigh: Ok well the heiau is one issue. You addressed drainage issues which was fairly consistent with what I had discussed at the last meeting. Chair: Cheryl Lovell-Obatake brought up the fact that those deep gouges that are along the edge were the sumps and then we had ourselves a look at it and it made sense that they were sumps. Our understanding is that the bike path will not be affecting the sumps in any way shape or form because they must stay in operation in order to retain the soil. Fishermen use it so now the sumps haven't been identified and will not be impacted by the bike path. January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 9 Mr. Haigh: Yes they are separate from the bike path and we are not doing anything topographically that will impact the sumps. Chair: Ok. Mr. Haigh: There was concern on the Nawiliwili Stream Railroad Bridge eligibility for being on the National Register. I guess the key on that is would be resolving who owns it and then deciding how to register it if they decide to register it. Chair: Yes its historic importance was never questioned by this Commission. I believe we still fully support its nomination to the State and National Register. I did Jim Niermann a couple of weeks came to Kauai and I was able to give him the Kauai Historical Society material. He has the original blue print for the bridge and was able to gleam important information. It' s got thirty foot footings' anyways so it' s rock solid. It's deep. And then we have numerous photographs the tsunami, the major floods just destroying everything around it but the bridge. Mr. Haigh: But our project is to treat it as an historic structure as if it was on the register and be sensitive to the historic design and not interfere with that. So we will be treating it as if it was on the register. We will be very sensitive and of course listen to you folks and State Historic Preservation Division on how we move forward. To clarify we are providing fishing access and of course as far as issues of potential over fishing we will rely on the regulatory agency DOCARE to take care of that. The bike path can't solve everything. Chair: Yes. There was mentioned of a couple of turn outs within the bike paths that will accommodate fisherman to be able to get because of its historical use. Mr. Haigh: In our environmental meetings we asked for input on important fishing sites and so once we have identified the ones we will maintain the vehicular access to where there is, just basically we are going to leave the place for the dirt road to cross. But not every single social dirt road out there will be treated in that same manner. Part of the project is to minimize the amount of random social use and creating dirt roads which have negative impact to the environment, create erosion problems that would impact the reefs. Public use and hours of operation basically it will be twenty four hours a day we will have gates up working with the airport security and there maybe time that we may have to shut down that area for airport security reasons . The intent is to continue to allow the twenty four hours along the path. Now the existing road from Ahukini side is locked at night but the one on the Nawiliwili side is open 24/7. Chair: There was also extremely brief discussion in regards to a burial and I think one of the ideas was to submit it to the Burial Council to review it. There is indication that it may not be but that falls within the purview of the Burial Council and not within this Commission. January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 10 Mr. Haigh: And I think State Historic Preservation Division they are asking us to do a little bit more research and to try to confine whether or not it is a burial. So I believe we are going to be doing a little bit more investigation on that? Ms. Kamai: Yes. Chair: Ok at this particular point what do you need the Commission to do? We are, you guys are done right? Mr. Haigh: We met with you. We got questions. We have answered the questions. We are hoping to get your comments in so we can register that as part of our environmental document and certainly State Historic Preservation Division would like to see your comments as we finalize our 106 process. Chair: Yes. Ok if that concludes the presentation is there anybody in the audience who wish to address this issue? We would like to welcome to the spot Cheryl Lovell-Obatake, Ms. Cheryl Lovell-Obatake: I like the stars. Chair: So do 1, 1 actually just noticed it about two second ago . Ms . Lovell-Obatake: Thank you Mr. Chairman. For the records my name is Cheryl Lovell- Obatake. I want to thank Mr. Haigh for addressing my concerns regarding the sumps. Now that the County owns this coast, it was given by Kauai Lagoons, at the meeting in November I had expressed the entire acreage that the County now posses to get an assessment of the slopes because of that runoff. I was particularly concerned about the area near Ninini Light House as you enter the coast the fact that there isn't much of a detention basin or sump in that area. So I guess that is not going to be addressed. Just now I have heard about the bridge which is quoted here has Duke' s Bridge in your report . . . Chair: That name cannot stay. Ms. Lovell-Obatake: October 14'h. There needs to be some clarification already admitted by Doug Haigh regarding ownership and that needs to be thoroughly clarified. Chair: Are we between the State and the County for ownership or do we have a private landowner in the midst of this? Ms. Lovell-Obatake : You have a private landowner in the midst of this. Chair: And this would be the Lagoons crew? Ms. Lovell-Obatake: Land Commission Award 3408 and there is a Royal Patent Number of 7713 , Apana 1 or 2. As you can recall if you may or may not know also my attorney and I in the year of 1982, 3 or 4 with Hemmeter regarding and I represented my grandmother Beatrice Lovell as her trustee in regards to the area that' s next to the bridge. Candace Mchesson and attorney January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page I I and Hartwell Blake represented me in the intervention. In that year my father got sewed along with my grandmother because of an incident that happened at the beach where a palm frond fell on a person and he was badly injured and that law suit went right down the chain. That was still pending. It is still you know questionable whether the County has access over the bridge and on to the boardwalk. I wish to see some clarification from the department or the administration to get some clear understanding or title of this area of the bridge and also if there is a document or easement that the County has from Hemmeter BMS to enter the boardwalk and that public access. The reason I bring it up is because I would have a copy of it. Never did it was in the time of, who was the mayor then, Kunimura. And that was never resolved. It' s unfinished business . So if there is a suit right now to happen or happens its big work here on the title search. And before you know I can say ok with the bike path there needs to be some clarification on the title ownership and that is very important because I checked with the County Council there is no document from Hemmeter BMS . Chair: If I may back track just for a second you mentioned that the kuleana was in the sector of this bridge? Ms. Lovell-Obatake, Oh yes it went down to the yacht club. It' s supposed to consist of two point somewhat acres. My great-grandfather leased it to Lihue Plantation and the railroad track bridge. Chair: I believe we can include it in our recommendations that the County really research the landownership and that it is a historically related issue. But Doug I am sure you figured that one already right you know that, that is one of the question marks on your list. Mr. Haigh: Well land acquisition is the next phase. We need to complete the environmental stage of the project then we move into land acquisition and design. Chair: Eminent domain? Mr. Haigh: And in land acquisition is where we do the thorough title research and research of the parcels that we will put the path on and so yes that is part of the process. It' s not part of our environmental process. We need to get a fair amount of clearance before we can move forward with actual land acquisition and during land acquisition title search is one of the first steps. We need to know. Chair: Shanlee can you hear Doug' s comments? Ok. Ms. Lovell-Obatake: And may I add Mr. Chairman there is an easement that exists on parcel 3 -5- 02 : 10 TMK, there is an easement that runs along also and this is for the Lovell' s only for the fact of fishing rights to the beach. My grandfather Enoka Lovell Il did draw up some documents with Dudley Childs, Inter Island Resorts in the ' 68 or ' 62 that we have a right of way to the beach. I think Mr. Haigh would have to check on the original access before Hemmeter put that January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 12 boardwalk because the access was straight down the yacht club and then the culvert came in and swiped all away, the water. Chair: Ok does this easement is it anywhere along the bike path route? Ms. Lovell-Obatake: Around the bridge area. See that is why I am saying that I would have had a copy of it if the County had an, officially had an easement. Chair: I just requested a quick view of the tax map key over this particular easement. Ok. Ms. Lovell-Obatake: May I recommend that you not only look at the TMK but look at the Land Commission Award and the Royal Patent Number. That is ancient boundary descriptions of the aina, of the kuleana. Chair: Yes so essentially LCA research. Ms. Lovell-Obatake ; Yes and check with the County Council whether they have a document that says that an official public access cause it's still floating as far as I know. Thank you. Chair: Thank you. Anybody else wish to address this? (None.) Ok having dealt with our recommendation that we made the last meeting I don't think we need to reiterate any of that. At this particular point we could possibly make a motion that reflected our recommendation that the LCA research is conducted. That ownership is determined. And it sounds like the County is going through an executive I don't think it' s what's called eminent domain. But I don't think we really need to mention at this point. I think the County must acquire this bridge to have access and I think at this particular point I think its ok for County to own this bridge. Mr. Haigh: Just for clarification we are using Federal Funds prior to obligating construction funds we have to certify the right of way. That is a step . We can't skip it. Chair: Yes I figured that but at this particular point it would be nice for a particular motion to into the records that is reflecting what we just heard. So that would be further LCA research. A study of the easements at this particular point and that we could start out that we know that the County is underway with ownership determination under that continue to do the LCA research and triple check the easements in the area. Ms. Sheehan: That is going to be County function? Chair: Yes and I believe County already knows and it' s part of what they must do anyway and I think at this point it more procedural but it would be nice to have the records reflect the LCA research easements. Mr. Ian Costa: Chair may I just clarify the 138 coastal parcel is not under the County' s ownership as of yet. Chair: But it will be. January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 13 Mr. Costa: In about three months. Chair: At this particular point in regards to the 138 acres I think we have mitigated most, if not all of the concerns. The only remaining concern is within the Burial Council in this one determination but it sounds like that' s on the way. Mr. Costa: I just wanted to clarify that. Chair: Yes and essentially at this particular point it just the bridge. Mr. Sheehan: Our questions have been pretty well answered. Chair: Yes and we haven't raised new flags in regards to the impacts to these 138 acres. Ms. Sheehan: So we make a motion to thank Jim for this report. It answers our questions and we would like to suggest that the County continue to research in a much deeper fashion the LCAs that are in the location of the bridge and the, I understood the name Duke' s Bridge, was going to come up at a later time.. Chair: Well we are going back to the original name right. Ms. Sheehan: And that easement studies and that the County look into at the appropriate time the title search and the kuleana that exists. Chair: That looks good. Do we have a second? Ms . Summers : I second it. Chair: It' s been moved and seconded any comments in regards to the language of this motion. Mr. Chipper Wichman: Just you guys might check with Cheryl because if the easements are unrecorded they are not going to show up in the title search and it would probably be her family. So just maybe solicit from them if there is any unrecorded easement documents because otherwise the title search won't pull it up, just something to think about. Chair: Ok I think to with this particular motion that KHRPC recommends consulting with the Lovell ohana, in particular Cheryl Lovell-Obatake. So if we can add that to the motion. Ms . Sheehan: Yes we can talk to the ohana for any unrecorded information on title. Chair: Ok it's been moved and still seconded it. Ms . Summers: Still seconding it. Chair: Ok it' s been moved and seconded any comments? (None). All in favor? (Unanimous voice vote) . Any opposed? (None) . So moved thank you. January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 14 NEW BUSINESS Re: Lawai Kai Special Subzone Master Plan and Management Plan Update by Chipper Wichman, CEO and Director, National Tropical Botanical Garden. Chipper Wiclunan, CEO, National Tropical Botanical Gardens was present and gave a very informative power point presentation on the history of Lawai Kai and the Special Subzone Master Plan and Management Plan. . This plan will establish an ahupuaa based management strategy and preserve it in perpetuity for future generations of people as well as the biological and cultural resources in the area. (Tape of presentation is on file at the Planning Department). Mr. Chipper Wichman: First of all thank you for giving me an opportunity to present to you what we have been working on for three or four years now and that is this area, Lawai Kai, is really a very unique and special area and historic area that really deserves the highest level of protection. To this Commission we are currently applying to the State Department of Land and Natural Resources to create a special Subzone within the conservation district that includes the ocean, the beach, the stream and the land. This is something that has never been done in the State of Hawaii. In fact just the creation of the special subzone is a very unusual process. The last special subzone created was one that I worked on about twenty years ago when we created the Limahuli Valley special subzone. It took us seven years and that was finally approved by the Board of Land and Natural Resources in 1992. Nobody has undertaken a process Pike this since. What complicates this is the fact that it does include areas like the beach and the bay that are really public domain. The State Attorney General is still working on a determination but at this point we are proceeding assuming the State is a co-applicant to this process. It may that they are not actually an applicant and they just throw in their property. I am not sure exactly formerly how they are going to make that determination. I am not sure that I am looking for any particular decision or endorsement although if you would like to endorse the process we are going through that would be great. I just wanted to if nothing else make the Commission aware of it because this is a very important area for our island historically in terms of ancient use, historic use during the plantation era, but more recently for the 30s in the era of the Allerton. They created an internationally recognized master work of landscaping and architecture which is an amazing historic resource for our island. So I going to try and whip through our presentation here and then we will kind of open it up for discussion and hopefully my presentation will give you an idea on why we are going through this process . So in general the history and background of the ahupuaa of Lawai this was a mahele award to John Kanehoa and it included the sea fishery of Lawai and as traditionally the ocean was part of the whole ahupuaa system that was created in landownership in the 1840' s subject to rights of the native tenants. Within the project area there where three land court awards that are shown here. Two of them are associated with two different Apana and so these three native families were awarded kuleana and eventually the Allerton' s acquired title to all these subject to continuing access rights for the January 7. 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page I5 native families. Aunty Betty Snowden provided me pictures of her ancestors in the Puaoi family which were one of the LCAs awarded there in the project area. Upon the deaths of Kaneloa and his wife Queen Emma acquired the property and when she died it was in her estate and, let me back up I am getting ahead of myself, her place of residence that she came to after the death of her son and husband kind of as a place of boarding and healing Mauna Kilohana is actually up above the valley within the Kukuiula development project and is taking place immediately adjacent to us . So following the death of Queen Emma the McBryde family purchased the ahupuaa of Lawai from her estate but anyway that' s Elizabeth the matriarch and the Alexander. Alexander acquired this property from his family, the lower part the Lawai Kai reservation from his family. This is the first photograph we have about 1900 showing what that area would have looked like. Of course everybody that sees these old pictures as with many of our old pictures is always kind of stunned and how barren the landscape looked in those days. I love this picture which shows the functioning fish pond, the ancient fish pond. During this time it was intensively used for crops they were growing rice and taro in that area. The fishpond was according to our oral history functioning all the way up the '46 tsunami filled it in. Subsequently two additional over washes from Hurricane Iwa in ' 82 and ' 92 continued to fill it in. The master plan, I am kind of getting ahead of myself, for this area does call for the consideration of the fishpond. However, considering climate change and you know extreme storm events it' s not an undertaking we would take lightly even if we had Federal funding to do it because of the amount of work that would go into it and the chance of it probably being filled in or severely damaged by severe storms. Other kind of notable things you might see in this photograph is the wooden trestle on the far left. This was from the railroad system that was put in the late 1800s early 1900s for the steam powered trains that comes through the valley. This is a great map that was produced about 1900 and the upper part of this map is not, I had to cut it off because of the power point slide was the first indication for the irrigation system the plantation put in included twenty seven three hundred foot wells of which we have been able to find for them and they produce enough water for us to irrigate. In fact all of the water in Allerton Garden is coming from the historic irrigation system that was put in the McBryde Plantation era. So agriculture in the 1900s became an area where they planted sugar cane, taro and rice in the lower valley. 1935 this is what the valley would have looked like when the Allerton' s arrived in 1935 and you can see the area down here which is where Alexander McBryde was living and you can seethe fishpond area on that side. 1938 they were just completing their home and they named their property Lawai Kai. Shown on the left is John Greg Allerton and the right Robert Allerton. When they purchased the property from Alexander' s estate they purchased the sea fishery of Lawai. This is actual photo copy of the deed that was recorded at the Bureau of Conveyances and it wasn't until Statehood that the State actually acquired through condemnation the sea fisheries in order to claim title to the ocean. This is just a map of Lawai Kai that John Greg January 7, 2010 K.1 Y.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 16 Allerton drew and a couple of quick pictures for those of you have any of you not been down there? Ok so this is just old stuff for you guys so I will just kind of whip through it. Anyway it really is a quite an amazing property that they developed. We are mandated under the will to maintain the garden as my father and I have it, a lot that includes how we maintain the garden in terms of maintaining the historic landscape that is there. Hideo Teshima born and raised lived his entire life and worked in the Lawai garden, personal friend and mentor of mine. So in ' 86 John Allerton died and he left his estate entrust to the First National Bank of Chicago with NTBG as managers. We have a long term management agreement in place with the bank. The idea being that they are the fiduciary you know responsible party and we are the managers. It's a very good relationship that we have with them and the long term management agreement commits them to the continued management of this area according to the will. One of my concerns and I will be candid with you folks is that anytime you have a landowner who is five thousand miles away and a corporate entity which in this case you know they left it to their family bank the First National Bank of Chicago assuming that the bankers were their friends and they did not envision that the First National Bank would be bought by Bank One which would be eventually bought by JP Morgan Chase which is now one of the largest banks in the world. When you have an institution of that size that's so unfamiliar with our ways you might say out here in the pacific it' s always a challenge so one of the things that this plan would do is it would lock in as the only permitted uses of this special subzone the long range master plan that is being proposed. So it would lock in all of the historic features that required continued maintenance and such. Right now as the land owner they are not legally bound to that in fact they have under the right of the will to sell the property should they desire too. So this is another layer of protection in terms of protecting the historic nature of the area. So why you might ask are we proceeding down this onerous path to create a special subzone? I think the answer to that is kind of our status . The public currently is using the beach and the bay in limited numbers and the beach is an important green turtle nesting site, in fact in recent years we have had as many as eighteen nesting events there so it' s a very important green sea turtle nesting site perhaps one of the most important in the high Hawaiian Islands . Native Hawaiian decedents are active in visiting the grave sites and continue to have and exercise their legal and cultural constitutionally protected rights there. The community in general wants to see this area protected from over use but they also want to have continued access to the beach and the bay. The challenge and here in lies the challenge is everybody agrees that the current level of use is ok. Its how do you protect from the use of the incredible change that is coming upon Koloa and Poipu and our island in general. So these are just kind of some pictures : one of the Apana from the Land Commission Award that has burials in it; some of the turtles that are nesting there; a hauling out site for monk seals; it' s also a site that is being used by commercial boats and in the past commercial boats had come in and anchored and we had commercial kayak company that comes up on the beach and brings their January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 17 visitors breakfast. So it has had some commercial activities coming into it from the ocean of which we have no ability to control under the current management regime. This guy came in with actually a larger boat anchored in the bay, off loaded his little Avalon with a little motor and motored up on to the beach with his cooler. So access from the ocean is a continued concern for us in terms of managing it. This picture is kind of stereotypical of the current level of use on any given day. You might have some people who have kayaked in. A number of people would have walked in. So you have beach users that are using it as a recreational area. It' s a favorite site for boogie boarding. Actually before Hurricane Iwa it was pretty good to surf and get some good waves down there but two hurricanes changed the topography on the bottom so it' s pretty much a closeout shore break but it' s great for boogie boarders and it is an area that fishermen do use on an unlimited basis. So the biggest threat though is literally right up against the boarder, Kukuiula Development that is going to change the entire nature of that area but in addition to that their at the time this slide was put together there were ten other current developments taking place in Koloa. And I am sure you are all familiar with that. The demographics of Koloa are going to change dramatically and as they do we are going to have a new populace that looks at areas like Lawai Kai differently then we do . And I think there is tremendous pressure to be viewed as a recreational area instead of an historic or conservation area. So what we are undertaking is trying to find the right balance between these. We are proposing a creation of a subzone that if as you can see here would go out and 'include point to point. This would give us an ability to manage the marine activities in here as well as control and manage the recreational uses of the beach and the bay. It would also incorporate a holistic way of looking at it. So it really goes back to a more traditional ahupuaa perspective of land management where you look at the land, the stream, the beach and the bay as a holistic unit. It' s a unique process that will require State and County support and especially, most especially, the community to get through this daunting process. It will eventually allow the community to protect and manage marine coastal area. This area here would actually we have been working for several years with a citizens advisory group which would be turned into a long term body that would actually help manage that area. So NTBG is not looking for or asking for the authority. We don' t want to be the ones to manage the beach and the ocean. We would prefer to see the community do that under the management and regulatory scheme we are setting up. This is actually an important and is successful and would make Allerton and the perpetuation of Allerton Garden a conforming use. Right now it' s a non-conforming use. Basically it means its illegal within the conservation district the activities that are taking place here are not legally permitted. They are grandfathered in as a non-conforming use but in terms of over the long term use of maintaining and rebuilding some of the historic structures and things like that it is much preferable to have them actually legally permitted uses within that special subzone. January 7, 20 10 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 18 Here is a snap shot of most of the members of the citizens advisory group which include extreme, you know we intentionally brought in the diverse members of the community including Cheryl ' s partner in crime Tessie there in the middle who kind of represents the kind of extreme protect it view point and then people like Captain Andy and others who represent the commercial use and everything in between. It' s been a real challenge to try to bring this diverse community citizens advisory group together to find common ground on what they would like to see done. We have been actually very, very successful and we do have consensus now on the plan that is moving forward so that has taken several years but it' s a good investment of our time and energy. So the question you might ask is well what is that kind of current level of use, well it took a year long study to document that and obviously it fluctuates day to day but in general what we are seeing is that say on any given day your users are fairly small. So we are looking at five or six people on a weekend day and then significantly less on the week day. Largest observation a little more than twenty people that was actually a group that came in and so you know this is by the way we have three different categories, category one was kind of the people that come in and sunbathe and look for shells and boogie board and stuff like that; the fishermen were significantly less than that and marine uses even less. The scheme that we are proposing that actually creates Zone A here that would allow boats to come in and transit Zone A with a no way speed. So they cannot come in here and speed. No jet skies are allowed in this zone and up to two points could anchor in this zone. To penetrate in closer to the beach there is an ingress and egress zone that requires no motorized boats so kayaks in a limited number will be able to go in there. We are calling it a parking area. It's actually conservation area. It' s actually an area that we will delineate that will allow a certain number of kayaks . Another idea will try to keep kayaks from being scattered all over the beach in the future. So access from the ocean will be managed under this scheme here. Were the challenge really becomes is how do you manage terrestrial access, over land access, the only legal shoreline access route to this area is along the rocky coast. And this picture is not really a fair representation it actually looks like you could walk along these rocks fairly easily and in fact this side over here there is ladders that come down from the cliffs from the plantation. Actually shoreline access is very challenging and because it' s so challenging quite a people that come over the land trespass and they come in over the old Allerton driveway and come down to the beach or they drive through the county fields and they walk over our property on this side there is a trail coming down. And up to now this level now we have kind of tolerated and it' s worked ok in the numbers in term of the number of people that do it. The problem as these cane fields turn into houses and the population of Koloa goes over the roof the pressure is going to increase to the point where people are going to demand a proper beach access route and if we created a proper easement that was deeded to the County on that side of the bay it would basically ruin that area. It would become primarily a recreational area. So we have been in discussions actually with the Planning Department for probably six years or more in terms of this and the State actually worked with three different chairs at the DLNR and both the State and County has been supportive of the process we are going through because they January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 19 recognize that we need to come up with ways to protect important conservation and historic areas while at the same time addressing the fact that they are important recreational areas for our community. To what extremes do people cross over to our property? Today they are posted and fenced. We pile up rubbish and there are some serious safety issues that people need to navigate. It doesn't seem to stop them at all. Check out the footing this guy has here. If his sneakers slip he would definitely get some road rash falling down the cliff here. The old driveway was severely undermined by Hurricane Iniki, it would require major undertakings. You would have to put new footings down in the inner tidal zone and it would be a huge undertaking and very expensive and challenging environmental process to rebuild. We have rocks falling off the cliff on the old driveway. It' s a very unstable area and so but rather than walk on the rocks people are risking their lives literally to come in over the old driveway today. We decided to check out this is members of us in the citizens advisory group to see just how daunting the beach access route over the rocks is. Actually this kind of area right here is kind of easy. You just jump rock to rock and it is pretty straight forward. The challenge is when we got to this area here which was stripped of the alluvium during the last hurricane. It used to be actually in the 60s that John Allerton had a walkway, a shoreline walkway that went all the way around to Spouting Horn. That was completely destroyed and taken away and you come up to this kind of outcropping of basalt that is very difficult to get around. There actually is a way to get around it but it is pretty challenging. So we kind of put our heads together and kind of thought about it because our long term goal is not to completely restrict access over the land it is to control access and to have a way that people can get in there but you don't want to make it too easy. You want to make a kind of a natural buffer. So after putting our heads together we and the community citizens advisory group suggested that we actually dedicate to the County an easement on this side that would be subject to several conditions one of which being that this area always remain in agriculture because if this were ever to be developed we would be shooting ourselves in the foot. A&B has recently put all that land into important Ag land designation which is probably a permanent designation. It would require 2/3 of the legislation to remove that. So you can see there where the trail going down where people park. You can see surfers going up and down that way. It' s not easy but it is much safer then the other side. Do you have a question Randy? Chair: No we can deal with that later. Mr. Chipper Wichman: Parking area from the top and kind of the view from the west side looking down over the beach and bay. This is the A&B important Ag lands that they have put into this designation. It' s about three thousand acres and it appears and I am fairly confident, I mean nothing is forever, but I am fairly confident that A&B is committed in perpetuity to maintain that as agriculture lands. And our biggest fear was we were going to get another Kukuiula Development on that side and then we would be sandwiched between the two. Having agriculture on this side works for us because A&B does provided limited access to the public through their property. You have to get a permit, you have to apply and get a permit and they do January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 20 regulate it with some level of security. It does mean that the community can actually drive up to here and come down the path if they wanted too. It takes some work to get there . So that's kind of the timeline is we have completed our draft master plan in August last year. We have revised it in October. We had an island wide community meeting on October 20"' in which we only had positive comments towards this and we have now begun the formal process of petitioning DLNR to create this special subzone. DLNR is not constrained at all in terms of timeline unlike the Conservation District Use Permit they have to act within 180 days or it's automatically approved. In terms of petitioning to create a special subzone they are not constrained and in fact they are not even sure what to do but they are in the process of figuring that out. So I would just like to stop here and we can go back to any slides and just open it up for questions or discussions that you might have in terms of the purview of this Commission. Ms. Aiu: I have a question if the Chair would allow me. Chair: Yes. Ms. Aiu: I am trying to figure out what a subzone is and what the consequences are . Is this a management of government tool? Mr. Chipper Wichman: Um the State what they did when they created the four land use districts of urban, rural, agriculture, conservation. Within the conservation district they did subsequently create subzones . So you have permitted subzone, general subzone, and they become more and more restricted. The most restricted being protective subzone and the next restricted being limited subzone. So the Allerton Garden is currently listed in limited subzone and it' s in an area by definition that is not appropriate for human activity. It' s areas subject to landslides, tsunamis and things like that. My tuiderstanding from my historical record is that John Allerton actually petitioned to include .his property in the conservation district as a way of protecting it. He wanted to see it, he thought if it was in the conservation district verses the ag district it would more likely be protected. When he did that in 1964 they had not set up the subzone scheme. In fact most of the most of the old timers, my grandmother included, paid no attention to the conservation district of the subzones. They just happened to live in it and it was all business as usual . In fact there is no indication, in fact there was nothing on record within DLNR that in ' 84 after Iwa hit us that he even went into the State for conservation district use permit to rebuild or that the County required him to do that. You know they just did what they needed to do. . In ' 92 when we went in after Iniki we had to undertake for the first time getting a conservation use permit for that property and it was a daunting undertaking that took us a couple of years and actually had to get a special management area permit and that really opened that up at the time because one of the conditions of the SMA was the next time you come in for a permit we will require some level of beach access. So this has been a, I'm not sure Danita if I answered your question. Yes it' s a way of regulating land use in a conservation district. January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 21 Ms. Aiu: Yes I am kind of getting the idea. It comes under DLNR and then they these different subzones and then they have conditions for the different subzones. Mr. Chipper Wichman: I should also add that he County has no jurisdiction over the conservation district. The exception being that the SMA in parts of the conservation district have fall within the SMA area, the County does have a nexus for interacting but otherwise conservation district is regulated entirely by DLNR. Ms . Aiu: Ok so then the next question and concern I have is access. That's one of my pet peeves and I hardly go down there. I am really glad to see you have all kinds of people and the bottom decision should be those people up there but if I wanted to go I would also like to be able to go. I think this whole island is a power and I lived in Wailua as you guys know and we have a waterfall which I think is my waterfall. It isn't right. So in the ` 80s there was just all this pilikia about the waterfall cause everybody wanted to come to my waterfall and I didn't want everybody to come to my waterfall and then commercial came to my waterfall also and when I go down there it' s like oh my gosh this place is terrible. So I hear you but I also know that I don't own the waterfall anybody can go . One of the things we did with the commercial and I don't know if you can do this but I saw the commercial. See that always ruins it for people like myself I just want to go swim. The last time the guy showed me the turtles I was all excited. So I want to do that I don't want to go everyday but the commercial do it and make money from it so what happen in our river is commercial cannot be on the weekend. It' s just for regular people and then like you said find someway to limit access. Fortunately we are all private landowners up there and the only way to come is to get the kayak so that limited some kind of access. So I don't know if you can block your road or whatever for limited access. But I surely would not Pike to see access be so limited and I hear you and you hear me cause haw I talked about my place you talked about your place. So ok that's my comment. Mr. Chipper Wichman: That is what has driven this whole process because on one hand too much access will ruin it. On the other hand our intention is not to cut it off and have no access area. We actually view the fisherman and the boogie boarders as our friends because they don't want to see it overrun either. Nobody like go down there and boogie board if get one hundred people down the beach and the same thing with the fishermen they cannot fish if the beach is covered with beach blankets and sun tan oil and the rest of it. So that' s what our citizens group is really wrestling with right now. The other part of it is if you look at our island in terms of miles of shoreline we have more white sand beaches per mile of shoreline than any other island and so what if we try and protect a certain area I think in the long run, part of this for me is trying to work through coming from the north shore where we fought for access we were watching all of our access getting bought up and we were getting cut off and then also watching what happen to Kee. I cannot even take my family to Kee because it' s just so overrun with people. Ok so there is a good example if you have no regulated access. It' s just I mean earlier on the agenda I was saying we gotta cut em by fifty percent it' s still too overrun. January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 22 The locals will never go down there and enjoy it when you got a thousand people a day down there. So what we were really looking at is you know what is the highest and best use of this area? In the long run it' s a puunoa, it' s a place that is set aside as a place of refuge that does have some access so people can still go in there but in order to do that you either going have to have a security guard, you're number 11 so you cannot go. Or you gotta have some filter that naturally filters and so I am not saying what we came up with is perfect. I think it' s not perfect. I wish there was a perfect solution but you know we as an island have to wrestle with the fact that when we were growing up is way different then when our kids are growing up and when our moopuna are going to grow up because we just got too many people. It' s the people that pose the challenges that we are facing today. So we want to keep it the way the reality is it's unrestricted public access thing is going to destroy all of our special places. Chair: Commissioners any more questions? Ms. Sheehan: I have a question. I guess I got confused the subzone is still conservation? Are you still conservation? Mr. Chipper Wichman: It will remain conservation so it will be a subzone within the conservation district. Ms . Sheehan: In the conservation and that is the whole ahupuaa? Mr. Chipper Wichman: It's not because we don't own the whole ahupuaa. This is a portion of the ahupuaa, the boundary the existing conservation district boundary. Ms . Sheehan: So what is. . . Mr. Chipper Wichman: Above that? Ms. Sheehan: Yes. Mr. Chipper Wichman: So above that would be the McBryde Garden which is zoned agriculture but then the ahupuaa is actually 2,800 acres. It' s a very, very big ahupuaa that goes way up. It' s been urbanized so you have got up in Kalaheo it goes all the way up in that area. It' s a big challenge for us in terms of watershed management cause most of the detrimental activities are lands that we don't have any control over. Ms. Sheehan: Just taking off Danita's question about access, are there above you, above this zone other ways that people come down? Because it looks like you own all of the cliff up to the plat. You own all that? Mr. Chipper Wichman: Correct. We own up to the ridge top. So in terms of upper valley coming down we are the abutting landowner and that would be difficult. But in terms of once you get above the ridge on both sides, so on the east side is Kukuiula development and then January 7. 20 10 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 23 above that is A&B ' s ag park but they just told me last week they are going to do another development up there. So there is going to be another development. On the west side we always assume that those coffee field would eventually give way to some form of development but last year they put in for ag land designation. I am actually very optimistic that it will remain agriculture perhaps in perpetuity. Ms. Sheehan: I think where I am leading is that this group is a community group and after more development comes on how do you define community and do you get them to you know the community is those who are here or whatever the criteria is that but once you say community you have to sort of define what it is so that people will keep your vision in mind which is to protect something. Mr. Chipper Wichman: So part of the answer to that is we are proposing, perhaps let me think about the easier way part of this process what is being proposed is a master plan for this special subzone. That master plan then become the only legally permitted use of that subzone and so it then provide constraints for how that area is to be used legally. It' s up to the community in terms of managing that. So hopefully the process of creating this community group that will manage the marine area we are talking about setting up a makai watch and getting them to feel responsible. Oh which brings me, I am going back to Danita' s question, is that over time the community that wants to participate will feel ownership and be able to past that value down to the next member and to the next member. While not everybody can actually get in over those access ways we are talking about, if Danita wanted to come in I wouldn't ask her to walk in over the rocks . That may be a little bit of a challenge. If we really wanted to she could become a makai watch and she could drive up to the beach and do her three hour volunteer shift. So the makai watch is like the ambassador on the beach. It's a community person because there will be people that kayak in they don't know that they just kayaked into the Lawai Kai Special Marine Management area and you know so it' s it first line of education of being an ambassador and so we have got a strong indication that the community is interested into this program because it will provide them a new and easier way to access the area. I think that' s kind of important because not everybody will be able to come down on the trails or walk on the rocks or paddle in their kayak or come in on a canoe. Chair: Ok if you're ok we are going to close the discussion at this particular point. Is there anybody in the audience who wish to address this? Where we are right now because we are related I need to recuse myself. On our next meeting I think we will have a quorum to be able to do that at that particular point you don't need to be here because we can have the County staff contact you after the meeting in regards to the final discussions and essentially it is our understanding that you are looking for support in this particular project. I think you have given us more than enough to consider it and we will be placing this on our next agenda for next month to finish up final discussion. But in the mean time we really want to thank NTBH for taking the time to explain in detail. January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 24 Mr. Chipper Wichman: And I should also add that you know we are on a budget thing so I didn't print the hundred something page master plan but it is available on our website and you can just go to our NTBG.org and right on the home page there is a link to it so as well as all of the source studies, archeology studies, marine studies and all of the studies that went into that. Ms . Aiu: Just a quick comment. When I saw this went out into the ocean and my concern was your concern cause this just happen to me that my bank changed and they move my stuff to Europe, blah, blab, blah ok so your bank you know they changed three time right if people change and then people who don't understand our ways just like you say now have control over this whole section that also is the concern. Ok so I am just putting it out there. Mr. Chipper Wichman: So this process though actually brings that control back to us because legally right now you know any thing could happen. They could sell it. They could develop it. They could sell it to a millionaire and he could develop it as his residence. Anything could happen and if you think conservation district is a protection you are fooling yourself because there is plenty in the conservation district already. So what this would do is actually add a layer, legally it doesn't matter who owns it in the future, the only legal thing they could do is perpetuate it according to the master plan. So in addition to maybe indorsing it if you see things in the master plan related to how we are trying to preserve the historic integrity we are looking for positive, I mean you guys are obviously experts in that area, so that would be very helpful to us. We are looking at possibly registering in terms of National Park Standards for cultural landscape and other things. Chair: Well KHPRC wishes to thank NTBG for taking the time for making this presentation. Commissioners are you ok if we follow this up on our next Commission meeting? Ms. Sheehan: Can we just as a motion support the concept with respect to historic preservation issues. Chair: We couldn't because I can't vote. We have no motion powers right now. Ms. Sheehan: Ok I see. Chair: So save those and make those notes for our next meeting and then we can finalize it all out and have it under official correspondence any recommendations at that particular point. Chipper thank you very much. Mr. Chipper Wichman: Thank you. Re: Proposed Building Design Revision for an Office and Gift Shop Addition to the Kauai Museum — Use Permit U-2005-22, Variance Permit V-2005-6, Class IV Zoning Permit Z-IV-2005-28, Tax Map Key 3-6-05: 5 Lihue, Kauai. January 7, 2010 K.RP.R.C, Meeting Minutes Page 25 Chair: New business, D .2., proposed building design revision for an office and gift shop addition to the Kauai Museum. Thank you so much for waiting. Noe are you here? Anybody here on behalf of the applicant please come forward . Aloha. Mr. Marc Ventura: Aloha. Chair: Your name? Mr. Ventura: My name is Marc Ventura. I am the architect with the Kauai Museum and representing them on design of the gift shop and the new office addition to the Kauai Museum and say good afternoon to you Chair Wichman and commissioners. We are here today seeking acceptance of our new design. We came in, I think it was late ' 05 , and we actually had the Commission approve a previous design that we did. Chair: Where is Commissioner Alkire? Ok sorry about that but in that this is an architectural review I just wanted to make sure that we had our architects here and then in that we had a chance to review some of this last month already and so we are familiar with the designs and some of the elements within this particular building. it is my understanding that at this particular point that no flags are raised at this particular point within the commissioners. Has that changed? Everybody here had that chance so essentially we kind of reiterating just exactly where we are with this . We were hoping the planning would be able to come through with the recommendations prior to that and frankly quite surprised that you are here right now because you should have cleared out last month but we are going to do this right now. At this particular point commissioners are you aware of the details have you had a chance to study the renderings? I am keen to hear what our architect has to say at this particular point because we have a certain standard that we use at the Department of the Interior and we are well aware of the philosophical nature of it also right and not the regulatory part of it. So like I said in the original look over of what you provided us last time it was good. Now Dennis do you have anything that you wish to bring? Mr. Alkire: Well I have only had a brief time to look over it. Chair: I know you are prepared for a presentation if we need it but whether or not it is necessary for us at this particular. Commissioners? It is not necessary for you to go into absolute details unless you really want to . Mr. Ventura: Not necessarily I thought you guys would probably have a chance to review that. I brought the boards just incase. There were just a couple of points I wanted to make aside from the design was that we have been in contact with SHPD over the course of the last month or so. I have been in contact with Lorraine Minatoishi who I believe is their consultant and their architect in Honolulu and is their historical expert and we have responded to her initial comment and I did get another email today about an hour before I came out here and she basically stated and we haven't get a formal letter but she did note that it just appeared that would hinder our proceeding. Their comments, they had no comments about the design itself. The couple of comments they had to do with the connections and the tie-ins to the existing building. January 7, 2010 KHP.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 26 Chair: That is one of the first flags that come up in this kind of review. We took a look at it and we also took a . look at the roofline itself. My first though was it was actually over the original upper window lines in the missionary gallery, whether it would block the light but I see now that it isn't. It' s below it right? Mr. Ventura: It' s below it and I believe initially that, historically that was a north exposure letting light in. I did talk with the curator at the museum, Chris Faye, and they have for all intensive purposes they have blocked all of the light out of there to protect the (inaudible). And there are some problems. That particular north wall was redesigned and was rebuilt in 1970 and there are some termite issues over there and so we are considering . . . Chair: The way you are connecting into the original building is naturally important keeping in mind that the building hasn't made fifty year yet. It's close but however at this particular point it is not yet because we have reviewed the way they have attached numerous times. Mr.Alkire : Well it seems as if the proposed addition attaches very nicely to the existing Wilcox Building but it abuts tightly the Rice Building. Is there any reason why you were unable to leave a little bit of space between the new building and the old building here? Mr. Ventura: That is something we could do it' s just the space itself. What we are trying to do is maximize the use of the courtyard and one of the new parameters was to try to create usable courtyard space. So what we did was we created an interior enclosed space which would act as the store and then we have sort of a semi-enclosed or roofed lanai area which would be protection to the exterior they have been having trouble using during inclement weather days. So we are trying to really open that courtyard up. The existing courtyard has this kind of funky walk covered roof structure and really eats the usable space up. We have got that down to two columns and we are trying to minimize and it also gives us a chance to phase it because budget is probably our main reason for the redesign. We could phase it and it' s pretty constructible as far as if we did the enclosed area and then the covered lanai that leads to the Wilcox which basically gives us protection in inclement weather. Chair: That was my first question I saw that it was the protection from the inclement weather. I am familiar with that courtyard and I figured that was one of the concerns, making that courtyard more usable in the long run. Mr. Alkire: Well I like the courtyard idea. I think it' s a good connecting link. Is it going to be big enough to serve the function that the museum has in mind for their proposed use of the courtyard? It seems as if it could come to the existing wall with the gate and all that rather than sort of inside. But my main concern I guess is just the way it connects to the other building although that' s only twenty six feet. And then the roof line, it' s another thing. It' s a third element definitely. It doesn't really make an effort to relate to either of the existing structures. It' s putting in a third sort of new thing. Mr. Ventura: I had this discussion with SHPD and interpretation of the Secretary of the Interior Standards it implicitly states do not try to mimic. January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 27 Chair: A philosophical nature of that . . . Mr. Ventura: Don't try to mimic and you definitely want to differentiate from the existing. So we have two such completely different design styles and how do you. . . Mr. Alkire: It would be very difficult. Chair: Using glass blocks as partition. Delineate the old and new. Mr. Ventura: Our concept was just bringing it together with material. The stone, bring the stone back. Bring in the concrete or the stucco. We will probably end up with stucco to representative of the concrete in the original structures. And the styles of the original buildings you have this classical and unique building — the Wilcox Building. Then you have this classical box that' s just a completely modern structure. It's like how do you bring it together. That' s our, ultimately we said more of a I guess a real recognizable style, the roof — kind of a plantation style . So that was our concept. Chair: Commissioner Alkire anymore questions? Ms. Sheehan: It sort of looks like the pillars are just tube like leading into the Wilcox Building. Are they just circular? Mr. Ventura: Yes we have got two. We are showing them as a solid tube. We talked about perhaps cladding with stone. The other connection of the walkway roof is about six feet wide rather than tying into the building cause initially we thought about a couple of different options and I think we will probably extend stone piers and they won't attach to the building. They will be close to the building and we will have beams on that. They won't touch the building but we will have a patch detail. I did talk to Lorraine about this . So the minimal we will probably have some pins placed into the existing building which could be easily patched and removed very easily if they had to be. No major bolts attached. Chair: Not supporting any weight. Mr. Ventura: Yes, yes. Now the roof structure the ones you see in the middle we have got (inaudible) so we might need a concrete piece so we show it as sort of a clean concrete element. How we dress that ultimately we are certainly will to entertain . . . Ms. Sheehan: Dress it up, dress it up. My other, it' s probably off the subject but are you putting restrooms? You are not putting restrooms anywhere? Mr. Ventura: No we are not doing any plumbing right now. Mr. Alkire: What's the roof material proposed? January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 28 Mr. Ventura: Wood shake is what we are proposing which is different but we have talked about a couple of different options there and again that blue tile roof, metal, we have kind of gone back and forth on that. Chair: Copper? Mr. Ventura: Copper. Mr. Alkire: Copper would be nice, can you do copper? Mr. Ventura: I don't think so budget permitting. Mr. Alkire: How exactly are you managing the connection to the classical building? It seems to sort of override the columns and beams and stuff. Is that going to be flashing cut into the existing structure? Mr. Ventura: Yes we are actually are considering possibly rebuilding that wall. That wall I termite infested and we are abutting it. We had a couple of thoughts on that. One is to separate the buildings completely with a load bearing wall. Both of the load is running transverse, perpendicular with the wall . So we wouldn't have to do that but I am sort of in the process in discussing it with Lorraine or Rick. We are considering a separation at the lower level and possibly handling drainage with that. But up above because of the termite damage we are considering maybe rebuilding that and maybe doing a solid wall. They have cut out all the light. They air conditioned it. It' s like the functional purposes of the original design are no longer even. We may maintain the left side but probably where we do the abut. When we do that addition on that side of the lanai rather than doing a full shed it would have just hit that whole wall so we kind of minimized it with the twenty six foot width and then I pulled it off to kind of break that up a bit and make the mass a little bit smaller. Mr. Alkire: I think that works. Chair: Commissioners anymore questions? (None). Is there anyone in the audience who wish to address this issue? Hearing none we can go into motion. Mr. Alkire: We like the idea of the relief on the building to the Rice Building and that if you can rebuild this wall I think that would be more successful or at least some portion of it so that the new structure would have a you know kind of bring it all together and create a clean connection. Chair: This in the form of the motion. Mr. Alkire: The rice building connects to the new construction. I am not sure about wood shakes but . . . Chair: Well its cost at this point right? Mr. Alkire: Metal would be the preferred roof. 7anuaty 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C, Meeting Minutes Page 29 Mr. Ventura: We would welcome a comment on that as well. Mr. Alkire: But we don't know what the budget. Metal may be totally out. I am thinking of the tile on the existing structure too. It' s very pronounced and stands out. There is a lot of rough. Mr. Ventura: Kind of turquoise blue clay tile. Mr. Alkire: Yes but this roof has a different pitch and we will se a great deal less of it. It' s going to be a more of an edge of things . Chair : The maintenance on this particular building will be a lot easier than it is on the existing. I know they have serious problems. Mr. Ventura: They have been replacing and trying to match. Chair: The pitch on the Wilcox building is serious. Mr. Alkire: What are the roof pitches on this? Mr. Ventura: 4 and S 1 believe. Mr. Alkire: So plenty for wood or metal. Mr. Ventura: The wood shakes are a little bit more manageable and once we get it in it works well. Mr. Alkire : Any other comments from other commissioners? Do you want to add? Chair: Gangy any other things you wish to add to this motion? Ms. Sheehan: No 1 think my comments that I would like to see the building itself and what color you are dealing with. . . . (tape malfunction) Chair: So are we putting anything into the motion about color schemes? You are ok with the muted tones? Ms. Sheehan: Yes, Chair: Well we could, you know they said that they shouldn' t clash but are you ok with the way they are with it? Ms. Sheehan: Yes. Chair: So Dennis' original motion still stands. January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 30 Ms. Aiu: Second. Chair: It' s been moved and seconded anyone in the audience wishes to comment on this matter? Hearing none. Commissioners all in favor. (Unanimous voice vote.) Re: Serikawa Hotel (Hanapepe Hotel, LLC) TMK: 1-9-005 :035 8050 Hanapepe Road, Hanapepe, Kauai Proposed Renovation work to include a new dividing wall between the two spaces and two new 32" ten-light single leaf entry doors, replacing the existing pair of French doors entering retail space Chair: Thank you so much for being patient. Under D.3 . we have Serikawa Hotel and welcome back. Please come forward. We have met before. Ms. Donna Holevoet: It' s been a while, two years. Chair: Thank you for being patient I appreciate that. Are there, well let' s state you name for the minutes. As you know our minutes are verbatim so every word is recorded. Are there any opening comments? Ms. Holevoet: I am Donna Holevoet and I am a co-owner of the Serikawa Hotel and we have owned it since the year 2001 1 believe. And I have invited, part of the project involves retail operation, and I invited Jasmine Schaffer and Ron Schaffer who has all of the enthusiasm for improving Hanapepe. Chair: Hanapepe has a long history of preservation you a thousand one friends. It goes way back you know and Hanapepe has always managed to manage their own historical assets. So we are glad to see more champions . In regards to your project any comments? Ms. Holevoet: Well what we are doing really for and our stewardship of this property we've never changed the exterior of the building. This would be the first change to the front and it is the simple change. Chair: French doors I think you are talking about. Ms. Holevoet: I have the photograph this would make it consistent with the other doors on the building. Chair: Yes and we have had French door discussions in the past and I think that was one of the things that of course we are always concerned about the alterations to the front. And I know that Commissioner Alkire has thought about that and the reasoning too as you splitting the office on the interiors too those double doors, the rationale behind the double doors. January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 31 Mr. Alkire: Is that the primary change on the exterior just the addition of the double doors? And what is there now? Ms . Holevoet: I have the photograph. Mr. Alkire: Just a single door. Ms. Holevoet: It ' s a double door, but I don't know how you refer to the style but it' s a . . . Mr. Alkire: Is it similar to the drawing? It' s the drawing then on the lower left hand corner. Ms. Holevoet: Right. Mr. Alkire: So the new opening is wider? Ms. Holevoet: Slightly wider. Chair: It' s a step up cement walk after the door or is it straight through? Ms. Holevoet: No you step up about six inches. Chair: Ok sidewalk. Mr. Alkire: The existing door goes into a single retail space? Ms. Holevoet: Right. Mr. Alkire: Your idea is to split it into two. Ms. Holevoet: Right. Chair: And then that is going into a French style? Mr. Alkire: It will be wider? Mr. Costa: So it will be two doors. Mr. Alkire: Its two separate doors rather than a French door. Chair: Oh ok. Alright that' s important. Mr. Alkire: I see why you will have to do that otherwise you will not have, your opening will be narrow. Ms. Holevoet: (Inaudible) we leave our selves open for doing a handicap access. January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 32 Mr. Alkire: (Inaudible) are problematic and not defensible if someone suddenly decides it looks like a good place to spend the night then you have another issue. So do you think there will be handicap access at some point? Ms . Holevoet: Yes we would like to do that and if we ever have the opportunity one thing this space will do is open up another public restroom for the town of Hanapepe. So we are really looking forward to that. You can come in and use the restroom that will be in the coffee shop. Ms. Jasmine Schaffer: There is actually adequate space to navigate through the space well and into the restroom. Mr. Alkire: This is the corner space you are talking about? Ms. Schaffer: It would be the interior space. Mr. Alkire: I see. What is the nature of this building? Ms . Schaffer: It' s a coffee shop, a really cute one . Mr. Alkire: Excellent we need more coffee shops. Mr. Aiu: That are not Starbucks. Chair: Commissioner Aiu mentioned the fact that these doors are going to resemble the next set of doors down? Ms. Holevoet: Yes as close as we can make them. Chair: Commissioner Sheehan was just showing these doors right here. Mr. Alkire: Accept they are wider. Chair: They will be wider? Mr. Alkire: They are wider. These are really, really narrow doors, the existing doors are probably in a four foot wide opening. Each leaf is only two feet wide. So it's neat that you can open both halves but that's not an option that you have here and then there is a light above the door and that's consistent with the other doors and windows. Ms. Holevoet: Yes the windows everything stays the same. Mr. Alkire: I think its ok it' s an adaptive reuse that needs to happen if you are going to be able to have two separate tenants. Are you good? I am good. Chair: Commissioners any questions? January 7, 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 33 Ms. Sheehan: Sorry I think I am confused. I ain looking at the wrong picture. The picture that was in the colored picture, the door, is that the result or is that the beginning? Mr. Alkire: That' s the beginning. Ms. Holevoet: That is the way it is now. Chair: This is now and this is later yes. Ms . Sheehan: Two single doors? Chair: Yes a little bit wider. Ms . Sheehan: Without this overhead? Chair: It still has it. You can still see it. Mr. Alkire: Yes. Chair: And I guess it' s going to have a wider glass overhead then say this one right here. So yes it's actually a wider one . It will stretch out. Mr. Alkire: It looks like the glass over the door is actually wider than the door opening. But I think it' s just the way it' s delineated. I don't think you really want to do that. It would be the same width and probably broken into a couple of pieces which are also not there but I can draw those in. Oh I guess there will need to be something in the middle because of that parting wall too . Here we go now we got it just the way. So I think that, shall I make a motion? Chair: Yes I think we are all good here. Mr. Alkire: Ok the proposed revision to the north elevation consisting of the two new 32 inch wide doors and either side of a new tenant partition looks fine. These would be in the area of the existing opening and that the light above the double doors have (inaudible). Any other comments? These doors are 10 light French doors or 12 light French doors? Chair: Are you good with that? Okd. Mr. Alkire: Those doors are about 12 inches wider then existing, definitely wider doors. Chair: We need a second. Ms. Sheehan: Second. Chair: it' s been moved and seconded nobody in the audience. All in favor? (Unanimous voice vote) . Opposed? (None.) Motion carries. January 7. 2010 K.H.P.R.C, Meeting Minutes Page 34 SELECTION OF NEXT MEETING DATE AND AGENDA TOPICS The next KHPRC Meeting is scheduled on Thursday, February 4, 2010 . ADJOURNMENT The meeting was adjourned at 5 : 11 p.m. Pecretary tfully Submitted, e U. Jimene FEB b 4 2010 Date :