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HomeMy WebLinkAbout4-1-2010 KAUAI COUNTY HISTORIC PRESERVATION REVIEW COMMISSION Lihue Civic Center, Moikeha Building, Meeting Room 2A/213 MINUTES A regular meeting of the Kauai County Historic Preservation Commission (KHPRC) was held on April 1 , 2010 in the Lihue Civic Center, Moikeha Building, Meeting Room 2A/2B . The following Commissioners were present: Randy Wichman, Chairperson, Danita Aiu, Vice Chairperson, Patsy Sheehan, Molly Summers, and Alan Faye, Jr. The following Commissioner was absent: Dennis Alkire. CALL TO ORDER Chairperson Wichman called the meeting to order at 3 : 1 1p.m. APPROVAL OF THE AGENDA Chair: Motion to approve the agenda? Mr. Faye : Move to approve. Chair: It' s been to approve, seconded by? Ms. Sheehan: Second. Chair: Moved and seconded, any further discussion? Hearing none all in favor? (Unanimous voice vote.) We also need a motion to receive for the record all of our submittals . I think at this particular point right at the beginning we would like to be able to all in one motion receive everything that we have so far. Ms. Am: So moved Mr. Chair, Ms. Sheehan: Second. Chair: It ' s been moved and seconded, any further discussions? (None.) All in favor say aye. (Unanimous voice vote.) Any opposed? (None.) Thank you. April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 2 APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES Chair: Commissioners we now need a motion to approve the March 4, 2010 meeting minutes . Commissioner' s have you had a chance to read over our verbatim minutes? Mr. Faye : I was just going to ask one question about Commissioner Sheehan calling the meeting to order. Ms. Aiu: We just changed it. Mr. Faye : It was Chairman Randy wasn't it? Chair: Yes. Ms. Aiu: Yes it just talked to her. Ms. Summers : I have one other correction. Keao Nesmith is K E A O is the spelling. Chair: Like the clouds, ao is clouds . Ms. Aiu: Where is it? Chair: It ' s back under the Kekaha rock as we were recommending the various different family and individuals. Ms. Aiu: Oh ok. Mr. Faye : I was going to say that throughout the meeting minutes we refer to we are waiting for Kehau but she had officially not accepted the continuation as commissioner right? Chair: Yes and I see that the motion was to defer. Mr. Faye : Maybe we should add into the minutes the fact that her term expired without her renewing it. Someplace in the end of the meeting we talked about her. Chair: Shanlee are you ok with that? Mr. Faye : Just at the end to say that KHPRC recognizes that Kehau has not submitted her request to remain on the Commission. Chair: I think in this next minutes we could do this, have this discussion rather than alter the minutes lets carry it into this minutes this discussion about Kehau. Mr. Faye : Ok because we kept talking about her all the way through . Chair: Yes and we weren 't aware of it at that point. April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 3 Mr. Faye : Ok good. Chair: We have a motion with the amendments as discussed, any further amendments to the motions? (None.) All in favor? Unanimous voice vote .) Any opposed? (None.) Thank you. The minutes were approved, as amended, as follows : Page 1 , paragraph 5 , delete Sheehan and add Wichman. Page 7, paragraph 3 & paragraph 5 , delete Kehau and add Keao. Page 8, paragraph 17, line 2, delete Kehau and add Keao. ANNOUNCEMENTS AND GENERAL BUSINESS MATTERS There were no Announcements and General Business Matters. COMMUNICATIONS Re: Letter from Dawn Chang, Principal, Kuiwalu urging support for the collaborative Federal, State and, Non-profit effort to preserve and protect native Hawaiian plants and animals by reducing the devastating threat of rodents through the appropriate use of approved rodenticides to eradicate rates and mice. Chair: Communications. We have a letter from Dawn Chang who is the room urging support for the collaborative Federal, State and, Non-profit efforts to preserve and protect native Hawaiian plants and animals . Welcome. Ms. Dawn Chang: Aloha ka kou. Chair: Does anybody need an introduction? Ms. Chang: I will give you a little bit of background. This is a wonderful home coming. I was formerly with the Attorney General ' s Office many years ago and I had come to Kauai on numerous occasions but now I have a small consulting firm called Kuiwalu. We kind of work on culturally sensitive issues, some of them on Kauai and some of them not. Probably the largest project that we just finished was developing a comprehensive management plan for Mauna Kea. On Oahu I do a lot of work with Native Hawaiian burials so I am very familiar with SHPD . Many of your faces have been familiar, here our paths have crossed. But that is just a little bit of who I am. I am a consultant. I have been brought on board on this collaborative effort between the State and Federal agencies to address the issues of impacts to native species by particular by rodents . And I am doing their community outreach. What I have appreciated with the project team is a recognition that we should do outreach with the Hawaiian community first. That many of these issues quite frankly are the core of why we are protecting April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 4 these resources, one, is to insure the preservation of these resources are for future generations to exercise traditional customs and practices . Without these resources many of the foundations for the Native Hawaiian culture may not sustain itself. We can read about it in a book but here we have the opportunity to actually insure that these practices will continue on. I appreciate the opportunity to come before you. I emailed Danita a request for you to consider this . At the end of my brief/presentation you will make a decision on how you will proceed but I will want to share with you that we have had resolutions that have actually supported this effort by the Association of Hawaiian Civic Clubs, they made a resolution in November of 2009 and then most recently in January the Maui County Historic Preservation Review Commission likewise made a resolution and that is why I brought this to your organization. It is again looking at these organizations as looking at proactive ways for us to protect and preserve not just buildings, not just people, not just sites but resources. So that is kind of the foundation I kind of come before you today, this particular body, it' s because I know that your mission it is looking at protecting and preserving historic and cultural resources . And so I come before you with this notion that we have native species, our plants, our animals, our birds that are at risk and one of our greatest threats we found is rodents. I hate rats . (Laughter in background.) After studying I realize that there is more not to like but I would like to take a brief opportunity. I know you have got a lot on your agenda. I am not going to take too much time. I have provided for you some materials. The first one I would like to show you is a power point that we do but I am not very good at technical stuff so I didn 't bring a power point machine but none the less I did make some handouts for you. I do have some extras so if anybody in the audience would like them. What we try to show you in this hand out is a contrast between short of before and after. You will see what the native plant looks like before the impact of the rats on page 2 and then below that after the rats have eaten them. Likewise the Mahoe, Alaala hua you could see what they looked like on its tree in its natural setting and the picture below that shows us what happens when the rats eat them. Again on page 4 the other species you see what the plant looks like in its pristine state and then below that what it looks like after rats have eaten them. On the 5ht page ieie what it looks like on the tree during natural and then at the bottom you see rats eating them and then on the 6`h page pupu kani oe our native snails. We are doing a web site that we hope to launch next month. The web site will have a section on a cultural issues/cultural component and part of that website we have asked Sam Gone to help to write some information cause we do know from a Hawaiian perspective the iole does have a place in our Hawaiian culture. The iole is recognized the kumulipo there are many moolelo about the iole. The iole does have characteristics thriftiness, craftiness, and for some it is their aumakua. So we recognize that from a cultural perspective that the rats while they may be destructive and most of the time what we are fining is a lot of this is the Norwegian or the European but the Polynesian rat nonetheless does cause some of this devastation. But on the website and the reason I raise this is I remember growing up pupu hinu hinu, all of us sang that and I didn 't April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 5 realize that was the snail. So we are trying to make this relevant so people understand why we are protecting these. But the pupu kani oe, the native birds I mean as you can see the rats will literally go into the nest and eat the eggs or eat the babies. And on page 8 again more shots of the seabirds and that the rats actually go right to and eat the eggs. Page 9 we have a mama sitting on her nest and the rat is going inside and eating the rats. So this is what we are trying to protect and we are doing this to insure our traditional way of life of a balanced ecosystem as well as rats do pose public health problems. On the Big Island I think if you recall the rat lung worm disease where 2 people got, I don 't think that they died, but they went a coma for quite some time. We incurred a couple of stories of the Mokapu Island off of Molokai there is one lone loulu tree never had keiki because every time it blossomed the rats would eat it. I spoke to Naumaka Whitehead of Kamehameha Schools on the Big Island she said there is a uhiuhi forest under Kamehameha' s jurisdiction. Zero percent germination. No new uhiuhi trees come up because every time keiki comes up the rats will eat it. This is a real issue and we believe that we have an approach to try to address this issue and it is through the appropriate use of rodenticide and the rodenticide that we are proposing has been actually registered by the Department of Health is diphacinone . And we have chosen diphacinone because of its low toxicity. Unlike the other rodenticide called rodificon which is extremely toxic diphacinone is a blood thinner. Mr. Faye : Is that the same as warfarin? Warfarin is a rat poison. Ms. Chan>;: You can buy a lot of these over the counter but for purposes of conservation efforts there is only on rodenticide that' s actually been approved and that ' s diphacinone. Mr. Faye : Is that in the . . . Ms. Chan: It ' s inside of our fact sheet. If you read the fact sheet it does talk about diphacinone. So what we are proposing and we are doing a in this collective collaborative effort is to actually do a Statewide programmatic EIS to get the approval of this rodenticide for conservation purposes . We do not intend to use this in an urban centers but in areas that are very difficult to reach up in the highlands, in areas that are very difficult to access under them through potentially through aerial, through helicopters and the use of aerial rodenticide. So the EIS will promote or seek to authorize a tool of approaches to this problem and aerial application is one of them. So we are still in the early stages . We have not prepared the EIS . My approach was to retail to the Hawaiian communities first. Educate them to solicit their support and then we would do a larger public outreach campaign through the websites and through other kind of public meetings. But no EIS has prepared at this time. No site has been selected so before any site is selected they will have to do their own EA. That community will be involved. They will be informed. They will decide and have an opportunity to make a comment. So want to reassure everyone that at this point in time we are not proposing to do this at any particular site. It is really going on providing you information as we begin to start the environmental process at least you will be April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 6 familiar with the project. So no site has been chosen at this particular time we are in the preliminary stages of just education. Mr. Faye : Can you say something about how the population has expanded over the years? Anything to go back 20, 30, 40 years ago? Ms. Chang: Yes you know our understanding it is just experientially increased and it is now what we are finding is that it has moved out to many of the upland areas . We believe that if you go on Mauna Kea they don't, while we think they didn 't go up to the very extreme high elevations there is evidence that rats are up there. So they, and I don't know if there is any cockroach lovers, but cockroaches have survived a lot but the population has increased tremendously where it has jeopardized and it ' s not only our plants and our birds, agriculture products, and they are finding every year they loose a tremendous amount of their crops to rats . So this is again an early, we are still in the early stages . We did do 2 demonstration projects one off of Lehua Island and some of you are aware of what happened there. That was done in 2008 . We did an EA and then in 2009 we actually did the aerial application. Soon after that application there was a fish kill and I think the community was extremely concerned that there were some suspicion that the fish kill may have been the result of the rodenticide. There were both tests done by the Department of Health, DLNR and then an independent test. It all confirmed that he rodenticide was not found in any of the fish. We are working with the community. We have met with Keith Robinson and Ilei Beniamina to discuss this with them. We met with, last year they had suggested that until we can demonstrate or do some kind of fish test whether this is actually going to kill the fish or not the community is going to continue to be suspicious. So the project team is working with the University of Hawaii right now to develop this test. We will bring it out to the community once we have developed the methodology and we feel comfortable and we will bring it back to the community. Likewise we did, the initial demonstration project was on the island of Mokapu off the Island of Molokai. We did and EA in 2007 and we did the aerial broadcast in 2008 . Knock on wood, to date preliminary result have shown that no rats have come back. Chair: The loulu has bloomed? Ms. Chang: The loulu is in blossom and not only the loulu and not only the the loulu the bird population has come back and many of the other plant species have begun to thrive. No evidence of rats. We will be doing a community meeting in Kalaupapa in mid April to give thre results back and then likewise we will go top side to the larger Molokai community. I went out and spoke to Walter Riddy maybe about 2 months ago to just keep him informed. He says you know you guys never came back and talked to us after you did this and you come here you tell us when you are going to do something but you never give us the results and that is part of being respectful of the community. I was extremely apologetic and humbled by that and I told the project team we have to go back to Molokai and tell the community about what happened. April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 7 So we will be doing that in April and likewise when we have more information about the island we will be coming back to Kauai to be doing a larger community meeting to inform the community about the results of that rodenticide application. So we do not intend in any way to be disrespectful and just come to you when we want to do something and not do the follow up. So we will be back here again in the larger community to give you the specific results about Lehua Island. Our intention today was to just give you an overall overview of what we are doing . Why we are doing and again to share with you that we have received positive resolutions from some organizations in support of the project and my interest to you was to present this to you if you felt it appropriate for you to consider supporting this . Chair: Commissioners? Mr. Faye : We would support this for sure. Chair: I think at this point we can make preliminary recommendations also. We have the opportunity her to conceptually support. However I have 2 cautions that I would like to add to this support. One of them being that the Polynesian rat DNA is absolutely critical. It has moved our understanding of the migrations of our ancestors through the Pacific . Most of this is coming out of the ancient DNA lab in New Zealand Lisa Matisoo-Smith who is a Hawaii girl is running this lab and has been able to trace the Polynesian rat and it' s opened up a lot of things out of that. One of the things is if they go into an area and decimate the population is DNA cross sampling that is taken and as our technology gets better this understanding of the DNA especially as it relates as we go up to the northwest Hawaiian Islands. They are all in the most remote parts. They really have no understanding of the larger picture of the rat, the Polynesian rat, DNA. And you can tell the Polynesian rat from the Norwegian rat is that usually a Polynesian rat is just a fat mouse. It has a round ear. The Norwegian has a pointed ear. So the first thing I look at any critter that runs a cross round ear? Pointed ear? Pointed ear it dies instantly. Round ear no touch. So one of the recommendations would be that the DNA sampling of these areas is taken and allowed for scientific analysis and made available to the scientists who are working on it. And the second one is there is a direct correlation with the rat population and the pueo population. That we already know. From personal experience I know the that years were there are hundreds of pueo we know that the rat population is really good the pueo population explodes. A good indicator for us is the Waimea/Kokee Road on the lower sections when you go up in the first 5 miles. Some years you' ll see a couple on the road, others you will see 20 or 30 all parked on the road in this little 5 mile corridor. That tells me what the population of the pueo is at least out on the west side section. There is a direct correlation with the rat population and the pueo population. You must understand that relationship and to consider the pueo in the eradication of t he rat. It will have an effect on them so a greater understanding of that relationship is important. Mr. Faye : I have a thought her that might fit into things and that is believe it or not on my own money now I am trying to put a DVD put together. It' s all about why we have this KHPRC. April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 8 Why we are trying to protect historic resources and a though occurred that there could be a section on there on this because it is a threat to our native species. And what it is public awareness. Know more about what we are trying to protect and so cause County has no money. County was going to help support making the DVD . I have go another partner because it will be interesting because of our cultural protection so to speak. And this would be, some of your slides would fit right in with the story that goes with it. Chair: So he is asking if we could use it in our DVD power point? Ms. Chang: You are more than welcome too . Just contact me. Mr. Faye : Work with me. Ms. Changa: Work with me . I am going to make sure I give you I am going to give you my card and please work with me . I mean our website is, there will be many more pictures and perhaps we could even link up but we will work with you. Chair: Yes very good. Commissioners anything else? Ms. Sheehan: I just had a question. Ms. Chang: Yes. Ms. Sheehan: You know when you go back and tell the community the result whether its Molokai or Kauai are you also explaining how many rats you think you exterminated them all but is there a number that you think or do you collect the dead carcasses so that you might know if it' s a round ear or pointed ear? Ms. Chang: Well on Lehua Island they actually did sort of an inventory before they eradication so that they could document the rat population after the eradication and I think they are still gathering that information. So I think we will be able to address some of that. I think what they have found is that this particular rodenticide what happens is that the rats will eat and they have to eat it over a period time so they will eat it over several days . They won't immediately die but what happens is they go back into their borough and they die. So many of times it' s very difficult to get a count of how many died. We can really more just tell by what' s left after. We know that on Mokapu there is no evidence of rats so I think they may have taken a sampling of how many rats where there at least that they could identify over a period of time. But I will try to make sure we gather that information and provide that. Chair: Especially the nature and strength of the Polynesian population. That' s what you are getting at. Ms. Sheehan: Yes I mean I don 't know if you know you 're definition is round ear/pointed ear. You might have an identifying them but do you know I mean are you conscious of the Norwegian verses the Polynesian? April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 9 Ms. Chan>;: Oh yes but I think from a conservation effort as well as from the rodenticide there is very little distinction. They affect them both but we do know that the Polynesian rat what they have been finding in talking to different conservation people is that actually the Polynesian is also being killed by the Norwegian rat. So they are sort of this cannibalism, I mean it' s survival of the fitness. They are much smaller but nonetheless they are out there. We will try to include all of the information we can. I know that we have, there was a recent report done by Steve Athens about Ewa connected up the Polynesian rat with the decimation of all that Ewa plains. Chair: I am aware of that and it is flawed to the max. Ms. Chang: Ok good to know that. Chair: Yes it' s full of tiger pits . His particular statement. Ms. Chang: I appreciate that. Chair: Commissioners? Ms. Summers : Yes I have on other in addition to your concern about the pueo being able to eat the rat is there a secondary effect if the pueo eats the rat that has had that is it going to affect them? Ms. Chang: Excellent question and that' s why the choice to use diphacinone because of it' s low toxicity. I think we have calculated that a 125 pound pig to be adversely affected they would have to have eaten approximately 15 pounds of the diphacinone. That' s a lot. The pueo as well cause (inaudible) he said the pueo is my aumakua. So what we are finding is that they will have to consume a lot of mice or rats before the pueo gets affected nonetheless we are aware of secondary affects and again the selection of diphacinone over cause in New Zealand historically they use rodificon but the recognition is minimizing secondary impacts . So again our selection here is to use diphacinone because of the low toxicity. We know that there is more investigation with respect to those impacts. Consciously the choice was to use the less toxin rodenticide even though we knew it would have to be used over a period of time. It was again to minimize the impacts to birds, to other animals, and we feel, and I guess you can never be a hundred percent sure but we do believe that this is a reasonable measure to address that issue about secondary impacts . Chair: So at this particular point . . . Mr. Faye : Just one quick comment, real quick one here. In World War II all around our homes where army camps/tents and there were tree rats. They were all under the umbrella of the keawe tree. Tree rats would run all over keawe tree and then they would eat the ropes on the tents and the tents would fall down and so, and this is and I don't know if they were pointed ears, but my cousin and I were hired by the army to shoot the tree rats. And so we would shoot the rat out of the tree and we had to cut the tail off and bring it in. 50 cents for every tail, that' s a lot of money in World War II in 1942 — ' 43 . But those rats were big. The population there weren 't that many April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 10 around but they love the army camp because there were a lot of food there. It was a business for us, killing rats . Chair: I also noticed that the way you use the ieie. The ieie is also completely dependent on the rat for propagation, the Polynesian rat, it' s critical to the survival of the ieie in that the Polynesian rats would go up into the vines and then get themselves all covered up in the pollen and move to the different ieie. That' s how ieie is propagated by the Hawaiian rats. So again the point here is that I think we can conceptually support what is going on right here with the following cautions that we just made at this point. If you are ok with that, so essentially I guess we are adding three different cautions. One is the DNA. Collect the DNA. Number two is understanding the relationship with the pueo. Number three when essentially that opens up all other relationships . Take a good hard look at ieie and its relationship that the Polynesian rat has with other propagation of other Native Hawaiian plants . It' s not just ieie but there are others so those relationships must be understood. So at this particular point the motion would be that we would conceptually support this project with our cautions. Ms. Sheehan: Yes I make the motion. Chair: It' s been moved and seconded? Ms. Aiu: Second. Chair: Now this is the part of our is there anybody in the audience that wish to address this issue? Hearing none Commissioners all in favor? (Unanimous voice vote.) Any opposed? (None.) So be it. So what we have just done as I understand is that we have conceptually agreed with the aims of the project but with caution. Ms. Chang: Sure and I appreciate that and I think that we are looking again at those secondary impacts but we will take a more hard and serious look at the relationship, the coexistence. Chair: That has been my understanding over the last 30 years that is the only way the ieie is able to propagate. Mr. Faye: Mr. Chairman should there be, do you want to have a letter from the KHPRC? Chair: Always. These recommendations will always go as a letter with exactly what we have done. Ms. Chang: And as we proceed when we get ready to do the EIS to come to back to as well? Chair: Absolutely. Keep us in mind because it' s not if you are going to get to Kauai, it' s when. So the more we are aware of it the better. April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page I1 Ms. Chang: And when we do the community meeting with respect to Lehua I will make sure we send you a notice of that and we let you know when that meeting is going to be scheduled. Mahalo and thank you very much. Chair: We know you are busy and we appreciate your being here. Ms. Chang: One last thing. I was on Kahoolawe back in 1994 and we slept outside and I was thinking what is that the ground looks like it was moving. Mice ! It was that many mice on there ! So they to are looking at this issue you know mice and cats. I guess we have all got our stories to tell. Re: Memo (3/25/2010) from Kiersten Faulkner, Executive Director, Historic Hawaii Foundation requesting the County of Kauai and Kauai Historic Preservation Review Commission participate in their Preservation Round Table Event, Kauai, Hawaii. Chair: Next on the agenda is from Kiersten Faulkner, Executive Director, Historic Hawaii Foundation asking us to participate in the preservation round table event on Kauai. At particular point as you well know our CLG funding was diverted 4 years ago. Honolulu Advertiser had a main big article about it. National Park Service finally got the wake up call and is now moving on it. So our CLG funding will be re-institutionalized but not in time for us to be able to afford to send all of our commissioners for 120 bucks for 3 hours. If you so choose to participate in this it ' s on your dime. Mr. Faye: They just had one last week. Chair: They had a preliminary meeting. Mr. Faye : Architectural. Chair: Ian was there. Mr. Faye : You got a copy of the manual. Mr. Costa: Yes and I did talk Kiersten and we are able to get copies for all of the Commissioners . Mr. Faye : Pretty self explanatory right? Chair: For those of you who are interested in it please talk to the Planning Department and let Ian know of your interest and we will hook you up with this workshop. It' s in May. Yes so please work with the Planning Department cause they have also the Open Space Commission and the Public Access Commission also . There are also Commissioners in the County that could be interested in this too. Any further discussions on communication number 2? We are ok. April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 12 UNFINISHED BUSINESS Re: Lawai Kai Special Subzone Master Plan and Management Plan Update by Chipper Wichman, CEO and Director, National Tropical Botanical Garden. Chair: C, Unfinished Business, Lawai Kai Special Subzone Master Plan. Because we do not have a quorum on this action I believe once again no action can be taken on this. Mr. Faye : In June we will have hopefully Dave Helder on. But that' s still a problem. We need one more. Chair: No with Dave there it' s fine. Mr. Faye : No but Patsy won 't be here June meeting. Ms. Sheehan: Well I will have to recuse myself for the next one . Mr. Faye : No but I mean for Chippers if you are not going to be here in June then. Ms. Sheehan: We have a May meeting don 't we? We are only deferring it to May. Mr. Faye : Oh it' s May. Well we want David on by May. You will be her in May? Ms. Sheehan: Yes. Mr. Faye: That would be good cause then he could cover both recuses. Mr. Costa: Yes and the problem only arises as one of you recuses yourself for one of the items. Chair: Luckily for us there is no major fire on us to move this one through. So if you are ok if we can have a motion to defer? Mr. Faye : Move to defer. Mr. Costa: Actually you don't have to do anything cause you can 't even, once one of you recuses you don't have a quorum to make a motion. Re. Letter ( 2/8/2010) from Auln Mitchell, Director, Cultural Surveys Hawaii requesting input for a Cultural Impact Assessment for the proposed Halelea Village Shop Project which includes a commercial/office area with associated off street parking, a cluster of residences and an open space preserve, Hanalei Ahupuaa, Halelea District, Kauai Island, TMK: 5-5-010 : 066, 068, 069,081 . Chair: Ok Unfinished Busines item 2 . The letter from Aulii Mitchell regarding the Halelea Village Shop Project which includes a commercial/office area with associated off street parking, April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 13 a cluster of residences and an open space preserve in the Hanalei Ahupuaa. Once again Commissioners because we do not have a quorum action cannot be taken on this particular item at this time and it must be placed on our next months agenda because Commissioner Sheehan has to recuse herself on this and so we are in the same boat as Lawat Kai now. Is there anyone here who wishes to address the Halela Village Shop Project? Anybody here for this? Ok never mind about the motion to defer because. Mr. Faye : Like Ian says it just rolls over. Mr. Costa: Automatically. Re: Letter (2/11/2010) from Malia Luika Farias, Cultural Researcher, Cultural Surveys Hawaii requesting input for a Cultural Impact Assessment for a proposed rock crushing establishment along an approximately 5 mile section of 50 acres, on the lower side of the Kekaha Ditch, Pokii Ahupuaa, Waimea District, Kauai Island, Hawaii, TMK: [4] 1-2-002-001 = Pohaku O Kauai Materials, LLC. Chair: And then our next is the letter from Malia Farias who is a Cultural Researcher for Cultural Surveys . This is the rock crushing operation within the five mile corridor between Kekaha and Maria. As you remember last month we made preliminary recommendations . At this particular point number one was that community meetings be held. I believe Malta has done close to 16 people so far in her cultural assessment, she had 16 people on her list. She did most of them already and I think she is coming back to do a little bit more. So it' s well under way. Within the last week or so all of that has been going down. I believe we need to be waiting until we hear the results of these interviews and the public meetings and the other recommendations that we made. The third one that their lineal access issues and be careful with those and honor them. And the other one was . . . Mr. Faye : Well number one was we ' d like to have a presentation of what this whole . . . Chair: From the land owner itself yes. The landowner I believe is not hear today and so we. Yes I know Cultural Surveys is here. Mr. Faye: We don 't know what the project is. We don't know what the details is yet. Chair: I see Missy Kamai and Gerald Iida who are here with Cultural Surveys and we have been working with the outfit in order to get the different historical layer on this. It' s a complicated corridor. There is quite a bit of material available here on Kauai. They are in the process of sorting through it all . I believe Gerald and Missy are here to answer any of our questions if we had any at this particular point on this project. Ms. Ain: Mr. Chair do you have a presentation cause we never got a presentation. We don't know. We just know you want a quarry but we don ' t know what when how. Or what you want the pohaku for. April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 14 Mr. Faye : All we remember is a birthing stone. The birthing stone need to be protected and the iwi. Mr. Gerald Iida: Yes let me just say that I think at a future date yes there will be ready to make a full presentation to this commission and other bodies but right now the archeological inventory survey, the field work hasn't been done. Like Randy said we are still working on the cultural impact assessment. This is kind of preliminary right now. Ms. Aiu: You know who this company is? Ms. Kamai : Pohaku O Kauai. Mr. Aiu: Are they people from Kauai? Chair: Yes they are a local outfit, Stanley, I don't want to quote his last name. But it is a local Kauai family. They understand many of the ramifications by this. Commissioners any more questions? Are you ok to defer it? Mr. Faye : You actually came all the way here. Maybe you thought there was going to be a presentation too right? Chair: You never know what' s going to happen right? Mr. Iida: You know basically a courtesy call incase you guys have any questions. You know because we are just not ready at this point in time. Mr. Faye : We gotta stay ahead of whoever thinks they can do something with it. Ms. Sheehan: As far as you know there isn't a time that is of the essence for them. I mean they are going along. If we defer it, we defer it and they need our input as far as their permit process. Chair: SHPD has yet to way in on it yet too. So there is a lot that needs to happen. At this particular point we need a motion to defer. Ms. Sheehan: I move that we defer. Mr. Faye: Ian if we don't take any action doesn't it automatically rolls on to the next agenda? Ms. Sheehan: Well that was because we didn 't have a quorum. Chair: Yes. Ms. Sheehan: Because we have a quorum I move that we defer this number 3 issue. Chair: Ok it ' s been moved and seconded by? April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 15 Mr. Faye: I will second it. Chair: My Commissioner Faye. Anybody in the room wish to discuss? Hearing none all in favor say aye. (Unanimous voice vote .) Opposed? (None.) So moved thank you. NEW BUSINESS Re: Sloggett House (Dolphin House) Peter and Monique Thorrington TMK: 5-5-03 : 15, Hanalei, Kauai Chair: Under New Business we have the Sloggett House here conversion of the garage portion of the residence, etc. , etc. I believe we have Avery Youn here. Are you here to chit chat about this project? Mr. Youn: Yes we are. Chair: Everybody know who Avery Youn is . Well welcome. Nice to see you again. Mr. Youn: Can I put these up? Chair: Absolutely. Mr. Faye : You folks have done a lot of work for your presentation here. Ms. Nalani Mahelona: I was coloring all day. (Laughter in background). Chair: Avery you have been through these before. I don 't know if it' s been a particular Hanalei house but we have done several of the Weke Road houses. Mr. Youn: I have sat in on this one before also . So I kinda understand what the background and the problems that McKnight had. Chair: Then you know at this particular point if you have any introductory remarks . Mr. Youn: Yes I am Avery Youn I am the authorized agent for this application. With me is Nalani Mahelona. She is an architect and associate with me and one day she will be doing this presentation. Chair: Kauai family Mahelona. Ms. Mahelona: Yes , Chair: Welcome. April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 16 Mr. Youn: Pua Layman represents the land owner. Chair: Ok. Mr. Youn: Many of you are familiar with this house. It was built in 1930 ' s and was previously known as the Sloggett House. They came in for an SMA about 2 years ago . Chair: We did that too right? Mr. Youn: It was an SMA approval but it took a while for it to be approved because of the certain design characteristics that they wanted to preserve and had trouble with the previous architect in trying to make changes or maintain certain styles. So in this one here we kept the existing theme of the architecture and tried to make the changes and improvements that the owner wanted to comply with what I thought were the concerns of the Planning Commission and the Historic Commission. I believe they did come here before. Chair: Yes and that means that we made recommendations at that time. Do any of them still apply? Mr. Faye : At the end you know that Hartwell Blake thing that part of that. Chair: Yes because they wanted a dormer roof cause they had children or something like that. Mr. Faye: We didn 't like that so they finally came back and they agreed that, that was ok before they gave up. Mr. Youn: What was the Hartwell Blake thing? Mr. Faye : It' s interesting because it' s one of those things that you see when you are walking down the beach or in your boat you see. And Dick Sloggett grew up here. This part here that feature you see that when you are coming in our your boat or on the beach and that was Sloggett' s room. So I always felt and that was a Hartwell Blake special feature. So you can do a lot of other things but if you can leave that in, which you have you got it in there. So and then I think what they did and they got something terrible over here but anyway this is a whole lot better. Chair: Yes I believe that at the last time it was also found that it is no longer eligible for the register right? Mr. Faye : See the front of the house we could never do much with that. That was already changed quite a bit. But this is the back of the house and that was the one thing that is signature sort of feature that Sloggetts themselves feel strongly about. Chair: Good we have new material here so you had a chance to review what the proposals are. Ms. Sheehan : The square feet you are just going up? April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 17 Mr. Youn: (Inaudible) renovations only to the existing house not the ADU. So technically we are exempt from the SMA? Yes we are not touching the ADU and this is one of the biggest setbacks in Hanalei Bay actually compared to all the other houses. I believe it' s got a couple of hundred feet or more. This one here does not have, it has accretion so the property line does show up . But it' s shown right here. The property line is here. There is about 50 feet more of vegetation before you hit sand. Ok I will just run through all of the changes quickly. First of all we are not expanding the footprint. In fact we are making it a little bit smaller. We will be converting the existing garage into a bedroom. What' s interesting if you look at this picture which was taken in the 1930s it did not have a garage. So we know the garage is added on. We don't know when. It also did not have this bedroom in front. This one here, that was added on. And the third element of this if you look at the back this portion here is the living area looks like it was an open patio . So looks like they came in afterwards and enclosed it. Chair: Which they did to many of those houses on Weke Road. Mr. Youn: I also noticed one thing about this house. They did not take advantage of the Hanalei Bay views . All of the upstairs was pretty closed up . The first one to convert the existing garage to a bedroom, if you look a this on the bottom this is the existing floor plan. So we are creating a garage and making it bigger with a bath. We are adding that bath here but it ' s only 6 feet wide. The second we are adding a second floor bedroom above the garage which is here, it' s the same footprint as the garage. The third one is the living room and dining room interior renovations. If you look at the existing house when you walk in the entry there is this big wall. Everything is close up. You don' t see the ocean. The new owners wanted to have an ocean view so what we are doing is taking these walls out and adding a couple posts here so when you walk in the house you will be able to see right through the house. The next thing they are doing is changing the existing windows to sliding doors. These pictures her you are seeing windows. We are changing those to sliding doors. These are the sliding door panels . The area is the same but we cannot take out columns and such. So the window are and the door area is the same. We are just pulling it out and putting in doors instead of windows . They are adding a new bath adjacent to the foyer downstairs. See right not this part here is one big giant closet. This is one giant closet we are cutting the closet in half and making a half bath to access from the living area. It' s just to make it more functional. Ms. Sheehan: It' s that under the steps cause you walk in and there is steps . Mr. Youn: And then the next one in order to get to the upper bedroom we are adding a hall way to connect to there and that hall way occurs right about here. So the roof line is about here, it raises the roof line. April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 18 Mr. Faye: That' s good. Mr. Youn: It does make the connection. We put windows so when you are in the hallway you can see. Now what it connects is to the second bedroom up stairs but because I heard about all the design concerns we are trying to preserve the character that the original architect wanted to do we took the same feature because that seem to be the feature that they wanted to preserve the last time and we extended it so that the second floor addition matches that. In this case it doesn 't look an addition it looks like it was part of the original house. That would be the view from the back and this would be the view from the front. We put this same feature and put it in the front also on the upstairs extension. Mr. Faye : You are using a shingle type exterior wall? Mr. Youn: It looks like it' s got some kind of composition shake. Mr. Faye : Is that hardy panel? Ms. Mahelona: It' s shake. Mr. Youn : It' s called presidential I think. Mr. Faye : I meant the facing of the wall . Ms. Mahelona: The bottom part is shake and the top is board and batten. Mr. Faye: I just wondered about the difference between board and batten and the shake. Ms. Mahelona: That' s the character that was already in the house. Mr. Youn: I think the second photo was already board and batten and we are just keeping it the same. Ok the other thing too is that the middle bedroom on the second floor is really narrow so because we have to take a portion it out to make the hallway connect we expanded it but in the expansion we match the existing roof If you look at this page here, exhibit A, you will see the existing and the expansion. It goes (ianduible). The wall comes here. This picture is from this view here. The upstairs bedroom some how lines up with this wall. So all we are doing is extending so that it lines up with the existing wall bellow. We are not taking anything off the footprint. See this lines up with the wall below. This shaded area down here is the wall below over here where the existing bathroom is . And in order to not increase lot coverage cause this is in open zone and is grandfathered I think it ' s already 12 percent we didn 't want to increase any further there is a lot of pavement in order to extend the patio here we had to take some off here. So we are reducing the pavement area and I think even though it' s not that much we are 89 square feet less lot coverage than what it was before. We didn 't want to have to go through variances or public hearings with this. But definitely through you because we knew what the concerns were before. And hopefully we have addressed the design issue. We tried to maintain the existing character and preserve this feature April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 19 here. What we did do is when you walk in the house now it improves our main view. Are there any questions? Chair: At this point Commissioner Faye at this point you are front and center. Mr. Faye : I have to commend you folks for having taken something that was very questionable to looking very good. I mean inside as well as outside. In my point of view my first impression was wow look at it now. As I remember, it ' s been several years and it' s gone round and round with McKnight. So my take on it I think it looks good. I have a question that one feature that I mention about Hartwell Blake stays in it and that you know I mean sure it can' t be on the register but it' s still a piece of history. And that I have to acknowledge. Chair: We will absolutely make sure that in these sets of recommendations, there is not going to be very many of them it seems like it. We will definitely be thanking the architect and the owner for producing these sets of plans . Mr. Faye : Nice presentation. Everything is easy to understand all the photos and the drawings and so forth. That' s the way we would like to see them when we come here. Chair: KHPRC would like to thank the applicant for the comprehensive nature of the materials submitted definitely. Any recommendations? Ms. Sheehan: I just had a question about if you are putting in apparently more bedrooms are we at a septic tank leach field system here do you have to enlarge it or do anything else with it cause you are adding more bedrooms and bathrooms. Mr. Youn: We are still only 5 bedrooms cause the main house is 1 , 2 upstairs and 1 downstairs. So 1 , 25 3 so we are still 5 bedrooms. Ms. Sheehan: But you are adding the upstairs one? Mr. Youn: No we are still 5 . I know there is an ADU which has 1 , it doesn 't really have a bedroom it' s just one big room on the bottom if they call it a bedroom that would be 6. This property is over 1 acre they have adequate area to meet Department of Health standards of 1 system per 10,000 square feet. So they do have room. Ms. Sheehan: Are they on a leach field or septic? Mr. Youn: Right now they are on a cesspool. Ms. Sheehan: That' s what the original house was. Mr. Youn: It ' s in the drawing in front of the original house. Ms. Sheehan: So you are not going to be building on it. April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 20 Chair: I think that would have been a recommendation coming out of one of the other County departments. And if they had made such a recommendation then we would be of course interested in the subsurface and what ' s going on in that. Perhaps Ian can help us a little bit with that whether at this particular point I am not sure if it falls under our direct purview. The question from Commissioner Sheehan was that whether or not the cesspool has the capacity to handle the extra bedrooms or whether or not it required a septic system and I believe that you guys would' ve raised that flag already if that was the case. Mr. Costa: That would actually be the Department of Health. You submitted for building permit? Mr. Youn: No we wanted to come here first and then submit for building permit. Chair: That would be determined by the Department of Health. So at this particular point we really couldn 't make any recommendations in the subsurface. If they do a septic system the subsurface would be important. That' s the only thing at this particular point that would be under our direct purview with relationship to that. All else would be with the other departments . Mr. Costa: You could reiterate that any subsurface construction activities should encounter burials or other historic . . . Chair: Right because of the sensitivity of Hanalei Bay and the early days that are in the area subsurface even though I know the septic system is only going down 3 feet but there is a chance of cultural layers in there . Mr. Costa: That they cease stop work (inaudible) . Chair: Ok. Ms. Sheehan : The other comment I just wanted to thank you for all the beautiful drawings but is this color necessarily just a color or is this specifically a choice? Blue? Mr. Mahelona: It' s the existing color. Mr. Youn: I don't know if it' s exact. Chair: Do you have any color scheme? Ms. Sheehan: No I' m always interested in earth colors and sometimes you just make a pretty picture and it' s blue because it stands out a lot but I didn 't know if this was necessarily anything. It was predetermined. Mr. Youn: We weren 't planning on changing the color. Ms. Sheehan: Ok those were my questions . April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 21 Ms. Aiu: Yes that leaves me with just one we discussed all of this before. Because you are having so many bedrooms is this going to be a vacation rental? Mr. Youn: I already is a vacation rental. Ms. Ain: Is a vacation rental. So when they are adding more it' s to accommodate more people? Mr. Youn: Well she said it is for her extended family. The children are older and they have children so when they come they come all together. Chair: Well you know where we are at this particular point. If at one point we can have a motion that transmits our recommendations of the KHRPC as discussed. These recommendations will be part of the letter forwarded to the applicants and we can leave a motion at that. If we want to get very specific we do not want to address other than say that we are not going to address specifically the color schemes and then. Ms. Aiu: That was just a question. Chair: Then at this particular point it sound like if we could have a motion to transmit the recommendations of the KHRPC as discussed. And I think Shanlee will take out all of our discussions within the subject and reflect it in the recommendations. So it' s not going to be in our usual forms which is recommendations in probably 10 or 12 parts. Mr. Costa: Right you don 't have to repeat them we will highlight the items you did discuss such as the subsurface. Mr. Faye : We are going to commend them. Chair: Yes. Ms. Sheehan: Yes I so move the motion. Chair: Anybody seconding? Ms. Summers : Second. Chair: Thank you it' s been moved and seconded is there anybody is the audience who wishes to speak on this? (None.) Any further discussions? (None.) All in favor? (Unanimous voice vote.) Any opposed? None. Good luck thank you very much. Re. Final Environmental Assessment (EA) for the Haena State Park Individual Wastewater System Improvements which was prepared in compliance of the State of Hawaii EIS Law (Hawaii Revised Statutes, Chapter 343) and the State of Hawaii EIS rules (Administrative Rules, Title 11 , Chapter 200). April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 22 Chair: Let' s get to the Haena, we just read the SHPD recommendations and I am having a choke fest over it. It' s unfortunate . At this particular point we have the final environmental assessment of the Heana State Park individual wastewater system improvements . And on one of the . . . Let' s get some updates you are hear to update us on something specific? Ms. Lisa Ellen Smith : No specifically the final had been issued. SHPD had issued their comments . They anticipate taking it to hearing on April 171h and wanted to insure that all comments were heard included KHRPC ' s. So the applicant was not available today and I am staff. So if I can I will answer your questions, however I may have to defer them and will refer them on to the applicant. Chair: Yes at this particular point if we are able to move it forward we will. If not then we may have to have to consider an option. We have received this item already. So officially on the records KHPRC has received the material. Do you require us to make any recommendations which could may or may not? One of em would be whether or not we would concur with SHPD ' s ruling. Do you want us to get into that? Whether or not? Mr. Costa: Did you want somebody to come back and give an update? Chair: Not necessarily. I think we are well familiar with this convoluted path right? This is many years in the making. There are many layers of incidences that have happened over this lua. And I think many of us are aware of the various different community sentiments both for and against. Mr. Costa: So I guess you could just you know make a motion to transmit any concerns . Chair: Yes normally we would discuss among the Commission whether or not we would concur with SHPD letter dated January 21 , 2010 in which the two parts that are Xd off are that an acceptable archeological inventory survey found no historic properties . No. No way. Ms. Smith: For the 1 ,000 square foot of the proposed? Chair: Yes that alone right there. Let' s look at the history of the lua. I think many people have clearly established the cultural importance of this particular piece of property. This end of the road bit. It is extremely ancient. It is covered in the most important parts of our lower and it first shows up in the twelfth century when Moikeha' s bones were kept in Haena for safe keeping until Laamaikahiki returned. Already in the twelfth century Haena is a major recognized resting place for the highest Alii already then in the twelfth century. And then we can just add on volumes of material that collaborate a serious occupation for a millennium at least. When they did the original bathroom they found burials . They also found house sites. Post holes. They found workshop area of which the found all of the shell, the hook files. So they found everything associated with long term occupation within there already. And to say that there is no historic that' s impossible. April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 23 Mr. Faye: So we can't agree with that. Chair: Yes so ultimately I believe in light of what we do know about this that general statement is unacceptable in my eyes. Mr. Faye : Do we have a written reference to that effect? Bishop Museum and so forth? Ms. Summers : Page 5 - 1 of the EIS it says numerous fire hearths and refuse pits, a large stoned line storage pit, an auwai, pavement, and at least two cultural strata were uncovered in the area where the comfort station and adjacent parking lot are now located. Chair: Yes so that directly counters what your report is saying. Ms. Smith: This is not my report. Chair: No I know. That one clearly. Ms. Summers : This is what you can confer to the people . Mr. Costa: This is for the constructed wetland. Ms. Smith: This is for the 1 ,000 square feet located approximately 57 feet from the comfort station and 88 feet from the existing leach field. Mr. Costa: Yes so I believe they just did inventory testing in that limited area. Chair: Yes and I am aware that they will sample like less than 1 % of the land and then make a statement but we all know that, that can't happened in this particular zone cause it' s already proven to be extremely rich. Especial there on the edge of the loko itself. Mr. Costa: So what I might suggest is to obviously transmit your concerns and your understanding of the history. Chair: So I cannot concur with SHPD that there is no historic properties. That is not possible. I would love to be able to but I cannot in good conscience say no way. So no and that may go across the board so at this particular point if we took a vote right now I think that we will not be concurring so that is why I was asking if you even want to go there. The second line the SHPD reviewed this project and mitigation has been completed. Mr. Faye: What does that mean? Chair: Well that means supposedly all of the damages there they have mitigated, the have found solutions to its removal whatever it is but there is no intention of any kind of (inaudible) . Data recovery, the word data recovery is not even mentioned at all which should be. And then Data recovery we agreed that you can wipe this side out but you best be recording it. And so I don ' t April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 24 see anything in there in relationship to data recovery. No data recover is being proposed in any of this at this particular point. So the second line to me I think is in light of such a culturally rich area that we have the same designations that you would be putting on a plantation field that' s been bulldozed for a century. To me I am very uncomfortable with that. It' s just I'm uncomfortable with their recommendations. From my understanding and I believe that the outfits have gone a long ways in talking to the Haena community over a lot of things . And I know it' s deeply split over certain things right and it is not across the board concurrence but a the same time it' s moving it forward quite a bit and essentially it' s almost kind of after the fact that all of this is happening right now anyways . It' s just like dotting the Ts for ten years ago. So at this particular point whether or not Commissioners we would make actually make a motion that we do not concur with SHPD or not. Then we can just leave it at that and not going into an official motion form because our intention was just to accept the material into the record. So that is why I was asking if you would want us to just accept it into the record and then . . . Mr. Faye : Just a preliminary. Mr. Costa: You might consider transmitting your concerns as discussed and that there have been numerous sites around it. Chair: Yes I think a wiser in light of what was going on over there instead of just would've been to say yes we do recognize this as being culturally significant critical to our understanding, eligible as one of Nation' s greatest most important of our archeological, it truly adds to American history this particular site big time . Mr. Costa: The area yes? Chair: Yes the whole sector and specifically in this particular we can make big argument for that it is eligible for the highest recognition. Even world heritage would be interested in this site right. Of that there is no question. It is a world importance. Mr. Costa: Commissioner I believe al they are saying is that they did some limited inventory in that 1 ,000 square foot area and didn't find anything but they do have a condition that in the event that during construction something is discovered they need to stop it. Chair: Yes but they already learned from the last time around when they made those and found the iwi and made some serious booboos. So the outfit does not have a really good track record so far in following through on what they say they are going to do . Mr. Costa: So those are exactly the concerns that you have. Chair: Yes we have reiterated concern in the past that have been ignored and here we are doing it again you know so it makes it into a, everything would have been fine if I didn' t read this SHPD letter. April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 25 Ms. Sheehan: Just a question Chair. It says mitigation would have been what would have been what has been in this book or. . . Chair: Mitigation would be their proposed ways of. . . well I believe the caveat for the mitigation is that should anything be found then they go through the normal procedures right. That' s the only mitigation in my understanding at this particular point. Ms. Sheehan: They are referring to this report. Chair: Mitigation must include data recovery. Mr. Costa: I believe when they say mitigation that they have completed they are speaking of mitigation of what they actually found not what they haven 't. Ms. Sheehan: I am a little concerned that they are trying to compartmentalize the project so much you can 't just say they are going to talk about the 6 feet by the 5 feet you need to look at the whole. Mr. Costa: That might have worked in the 201h century but you know what the is the 21 st century. You cannot, you are doing and EIS for a grave area but you say I only looked at the 2 by 4 area here and nothing else. Chair: Yes never mind the history of one foot away from it and it' s up to us on whether we wish to draw the lines. Literally in this particular case it ' s eligible for world heritage and this is how we are treating something that is eligible for world heritage? It' s a problem. At the same time they need to settle the long term aspects of the toilets in the various areas . We know it' s upon the toilets in Milolii, the toilets in Hikinaakala you know it ' s been a long history of a series of disasters when they put these toilets in the midst of these religious sites. And then they wonder why there is problems in the community. But at this particular point I think what we can do is for the record we could just go on the record saying no we don't concur with the SHPD ruling. Mr. Faye: Thanks right. Chair: And if you are comfortable with that then we each have to have our reasons for it right. Mr. Faye: That means that they will come back and want to discuss it more right? Mr. Costa: It will be just information for them so I would recommend you actually transmit your concerns. I mean not only the statement about SHPD but also transmitting your concerns and hopefully what you actually discuss. Chair: Like I said if I was to just leave it in one sentence that would be this is eligible for world heritage the no effect is not acceptable. But at this particular point I think there is enough discussion on record now that I think Shanlee can pull out what' s pertinent. So what' s important right now is other consideration to this aspect. And so what we are doing is . . . April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 26 Ms. Sheehan: I think it' s so narrow that I think it' s really hard to have this huge study and only say nothing, they have mitigated everything is this little area because the project is going affecting so much more. So it' s definitely not, it ' s semantically dividing the project into little pieces and semantically saying no this is ok, that might not be good. I just don't like the perspective by which they choose to be so narrow about. Chair: I think it would have been much more . . . Staff: I didn' t bring the original court report for the SMA Use Permit that was issued in 2007. So I couldn't quote or cite for specifics what was referenced or how the EA was done in that case. So I don't know if the entire site was done for analysis but I can look it up and let you know. Chair: Well at this particular point what' s important is um . . . Ms. Sheehan; Well I think it ' s important to know whether they are looking at it like this because we are not. We disagree with this because this is a big project and you can't, some of its parts. We can't take them one at a time. We have to look at them all and so to say there is no historic properties that might not be in this 2 by 4 foot square. We are looking at the whole thing. Staff. I don't know if it was analyzed in 2007. Mr. Costa: That ' s exactly what we will say. I mean in terms of you made a motion to (inaudible) concern as discussed then that' s what we are going to say that given the larger area, its history . . . Ms. Sheehan: I think the whole area is historic and sacred enough that you cannot just deal with one little corner at a time. You need to look at the whole because that ' s how both the people and we are looking at it. So we differ in our approach then so we cannot accept this letter. Chair: I wish that language would have been you know we do recognize the cultural and religious importance of this site and made a couple concessions in the way in which certain information (inaudible, tape change) . Mr. Faye: (Inaudible, tape change) there is archeological section in there. So the letter contradicts. . Chair: So at this particular point we can just leave it like that if you are ok with it but up to you guys we can take another step on it. Mr. Faye: I don 't know what else you can do . Chair: Yes because parts of this is good. Yes some of the research that they did Maria wrote up is very good. Yes in no way shape or form are we questioning the validity and the nature of the material in the report. We are just questioning, in certain details we can, generally speaking you know a lot of this information is good because it' s oral sources and everybody has a right to their opinion. So what I think what we are doing right now essentially is saying to SHPD is that no April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 27 we do not concur with your letter and go on record as such for the reasons we stated and that' s all. Are you ok with that? Ms. Ain: Yes I am looking this over and you know it says that there will be an archeologist on site. Chair: Yes but we need to make it a specific recommendation for monitors and all of that. See not on the basic things that you would do even for a property that wasn 't as culturally but yet would still require non of those basic things are there. A monitor you know a community appointed monitor. But see we are not going to be making at this point any of those recommendations right? Mr. Costa: Well only by way of your discussion right there as a recommendation. Chair: In that this Commission is particularly careful about the 141h amendment which means the equal opportunity under the law. What we do to one we do to everybody. That is very important to us. No exception. If we were to follow that our normal recommendations on these particular properties would be that arch monitors would be there and that could be extended to a culturally appointed rather then an arch appointed. It' s a very important distinction right there. I think it would be very important to have a cultural monitor, one that is from the community and accepted by the community to look at this. So that' s one of em that we do to everybody right and something as sensitive as this. Ms. Sheehan: shouldn 't that be written up in a mitigation plan. I mean yes the cultural person watches what do they do when certain things happen and then who do they go to . Chair: Just to make sure everybody is honest. Ms. Sheehan: Yes but it' s not just I saw that there has to be some chain of command. Do we, Ian, if we submit a disagreeing letter back to . . . Mr. Costa: I would limit the disagreement to certain conclusions . Ms. Sheehan: But do they right back to us? Do they answer us? No, it' s just a one way so they will know that. I mean I was just wondering if we get you know get them to ask us why. Or do something about it. But no it' s just that we let them know where we are and that ' s the end of it. Mr. Costa: Yes and really that last paragraph is sort of the typical condition that essentially based on what limited exploration is done they didn't find anything. That' s all they conclude. But yet during construction if anything else is found that it needs to be protected State Historic Preservation Division needs to be contacted immediately and the work ceases until acceptable mitigation based on what they find. Ms. Sheehan : This is a pretty generic statement. You do this always so if we felt that Haena, this area, was a little more sacred and needed a little bit more attention you wouldn' t do something so generic . You might say if something else is found you might have to set up a mitigation program April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 28 with a cultural person. I mean you know be more specific to this project rather than this generic in the event . . . I mean you say that to everybody. I mean this needs a little bit more specificity about who is going to watch. What they are going to do. You know it will cause the project to stop and you know not just call me immediately. It ' s a Sunday; nobody is at work what happens? It sits there till Monday afternoon but it rains on Monday, whatever it gets a little lax. Ms. Smith: On page 13 and 14 in the SMA application it does state and did discuss the archeological resources recognized the State and National Historic Registries but it does state that they do intend to educate construction companies and workers about regulations about discovering and reporting archeological resources or burials as well as requiring the project is run by a desired in part to the community to better preserve archeological resources and testing will occur as part of preparation and that monitoring will occur during all ground disturbing activities in the event of. . . Chair: Yes but monitoring by the arch firm. There is a big difference there and without going into a couple of hours of examples of where that falls apart in reality. We have 20, 30 years of examples we can go through where that has fallen down. So I don't really want to go there. I mean I don 't think it' s really necessary to actually, that ' s a standard caveat that they have been using for quite a bit of time right. Mr. Faye : If I was a concerned Hawaiian out in the Haena area I would make it a point to go over and visit there every day or every other day. Chair: People do. Mr. Faye: Because they are the ones that will check to se if there is over sight or not. Chair: Yes but howevers if they don 't have any authority to actually come out. Mr. Faye : They don 't need authority. Isn 't a citizen allowed to come and see what they are digging out of the ground? They are going to go look. Ms. Aiu: But what I am think Randy in listening to you I am not that familiar with the Haena area but if it was Wailua I would sure be there and I think that what you could say and what we can, or at least what I can deal with cause not knowing everything I don't want to say any kind stuff yea. I sure can deal with the cultural monitor and it could be some of it authority, yourself, because we have the authority of the Commission and your dad and people that you know. Chair: With the cultural credibility anyways yes. Ms. Ain: Yes so I could certainly think a letter like that would be in . . . Mr. Faye : Yes if you could spare the time or get somebody as an alternate. That would be worth your while. April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 29 Mr. Costa: Ok based on your discussion right now I think some of the concerns we would actually pull out and express would be a recommendation to provide an archeologist and/or a cultural monitor during all construction phases. Mr. Aiu: Yes they talked about having an archeological monitor. Chair: Yes the Haena community would be a lot more comfortable with a cultural that' s recognized by the Hanalei and respected by the North Shore community. I could go through a list of em. Yes and I could go through a bunch of em already that have the cultural credibility and also the time involvement in order to fulfill their portion of this . Ms. Aiu : Patsy' s concern, say I was the monitor and I said ok this is happening now what do I do? Do I come to Ian? Where do 1 . . . Chair: They have a very specific, the law is very clear. Ms. Aiu: So then as a cultural monitor I go back to SHPD? Mr. Costa: You've got to inform them that they have to stop under the law and then (inaudible) . Mr. Faye: Like that house. Chair: Yes let' s not get into how hot the whole Haena community because of all these other issues . Mr. Faye : They are going to be hot under the collar from that one so they are going to be . . . Chair: I think they failed to recognize the intensity of the feelings out there on the North Shore. When you add 10 different examples, when you add it up together it ' s no wonder why the community is deeply divided on this issue. But I think at this particular point we have had enough discussions on it unless we wish too . . . Ms, Aiu: So I think the letter, I am going to move then that we would say that we have received it. Ok so I will move us to receive. Chair: We have done that move. Ms. Aiu: Ok so moved and receive then the letter would say that we received it and these are our concerns and this is our solution. Chair: Yes and we do not concur with SHPD and here is our explanation. Mr. Faye : And then you can pull out a few of the choice statements in there. Mr. Costa: Yes and so I suggested that one would be to transmit KHPRC ' s concerns as discussed. It allows us to then pull out everything you discussed. April 1 , 2010 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 30 Mr. Faye: I kinda like the importance of a cultural monitor. Chair: I think Commissioners we are ok with this right? Are we alright? It' s been moved. I think. . . Mr. Costa: You need a second I believe. Ms. Sheehan: I'll second it. Chair: Great anybody else wish to address the Haena? (None.) Ok cool. You want to jump in on this one? Mr. Pua Laymon : It' s just really interesting to me because I have been a user, I live in Haena and I understand the different things. Chair: Yes the factions . Mr. Laymon: I am just here on a different subject. I am just curious to see how you guys you know operate . I appreciate your input. It ' s good to see the passion that you have. Chair: We appreciate it. We just wanted to make sure that there was community participation. We have done that. We are ready to vote. All in favor? (Unanimous voice vote.) Any opposed? Hearing none. Thank you. SELECTION OF NEXT MEETING DATE AND AGENDA TOPICS The next KHPRC Meeting is scheduled on Thursday, May 6, 2010. ADJOURNMENT The meeting was adjourned at 4 : 51 p.m. Respectfully Submitted, Shanlee U. Jimenez Secretary Date :