Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutaug22012KAUAI COUNTY HISTORIC PRESERVATION REVIEW COMMISSION Lihue Civic Center, Moikeha. Building, Meeting Room 2A /213 MINUTES A regular meeting of the Kauai County Historic Preservation Commission (KHPRC) was held on August 2, 2012 in the Lihue Civic Center, Moikeha Building, Meeting Room 2A/2B. The following Commissioners were present: Kuuleialoha Santos, Chairperson, Pat Griffin, Vice Chairperson, Danita Aiu, Jane Gray, Patsy Sheehan, and Randy Wichman. The following Commissioner(s) were absent: David Helder. Commissioner Stephen Long was sworn in before the meeting was called to order. CALL TO ORDER Chairperson Santos called the meeting to order at 3:00 p.m. APPROVAL OF THE AGENDA The agenda was approved as circulated. APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES The Minutes of the June 7, 2012 meeting were approved as circulated. ANNOUNCEMENTS AND GENERAL BUSINESS MATTERS Chair: Announcements and general business matters. Does anybody have anything? I hqve something. So I have been doing a lot of thinking about why I am on this commission and what is important to me and there is a couple agenda for next meeting and I think that our guidelines about culture and so ar practices that are over 50 years should be of things that came in mind. I want to add this to the it is extremely important that we add in a paragraph in iything that affects culture, cultural sites, or cultural in our guidelines. This is something that I want to talk about next meeting and another thing that I want to talk about is the name of our commission. I think that culture should be added to the namb. I think that's important. We are in Hawai'i and culture is an important part of our everyday you know theory. August 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 2 So that another thing and another thing I want to do is I want us to have a student advisor. So I want the members of the commission to go to the schools and talk to the students and have them apply for a position to sit on the board and they would be a non - voting member. So these are topics that we can talk about next meeting. I think it's good for our youth. I think. it's good for them to get involved in our community. I think it's important for them to understand the history and the culture of Kauai. So that's another item. So last but not least I have been on this commission for, I think, two years, two and a half years and we haven't nominated any places to add to the list. I know we are working on getting the inventory and things like that done but I think we should start the process already and pick a spot and try to get that added td the list and I am willing to head that part of it but I think it's important of us as a commission to start adding places to the preservation list or whatever you call it. So those areas all the things that I want to add to the agenda next meeting. Ms. Sheehan: It's like the inventory list? Chair: It's not the inventory list. I want us to nominate and I want us to do the paper work and get that and I will you know do the whatevers, yes for the National Register but I think it's important that we at least start the process cause it's part of our job. So those are all of the thixxgs that I want us to talk about next week. You guys think about it and then bring back your guys opinions but I did meet with Ian and Mike about it yesterday. Mr. Jung: And just for the commission's avocation I guess the first twee items she brought up would take an ordinance change to the CZO in article 25. So we could, maybe I could just come up with a draft for you guys to take a look at next meeting. And then the thiid item for the nomination we currently have that ability. So you guys could, if you Wanted to do a P I G, permitted interaction group, you could look at forming a committee in terms of looking at a site or doing site visits or something to identify. Shan we will put that on the agenda. Chair: Cool, thank you. COMMUNICATIONS There were no communications. UNIFINISHED BUSINESS Re: Certified Local Government (CLG) Grant Update Chair: Alright on to Unfinished Business, CLG status. You want to go? Ol. I did talk to Mike from SHPD and he is coming here for our next meeting. So he will be able to talk about our CLG status. He is also going to talk about inventory and what are good ways to handle inventory and (august 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C. Mecting Minutes Page 3 some good suggestions on how we can computerize it and things like that. So yes that was our conversation with him. I don't know if you have any update? Mr. Hironaka: He has contacted me since the last one. Chair: Yes so I am pretty sure he is going to come next meeting. Mr. Hironaka: Ok, Ms. Meldowney: That would be perfect cause he might be involved with the process. Chair: Yes he has been reading this. Anything else you want to add for CLG? We are all god. Alright. NEW BUSINESS Re: Letter (6/19/12) from Barbara Shideler, AIA, Mason Architects, Inc. requesting input on the Pre -final Design Guidelines for the Historic Kokee, Halemanu and Puu ka Pele Camp Lots (Kokee and Waimea Canyon Recreation Residences Historic District) State of Hawaii, Division of State Parks. Chair: Can we move the unfinished business to the end of the meeting? Can I get a motion? Mr. Wichman: Motion to move the certified local government discussion to the end, after new business. Ms. Sheehan: Second. Chair: All in favor? (Unanimous voice vote.) Alright on to new business. Letter, 6/19/12 from Barbara Shideler, AIA, Mason Architects requesting input on the pre -final design guidelil es for the historic Kokee, Halemanu and Puu ka Pele Camp lots, Kokee and Waimea Canyon recreation residences historic district. Is there anyone from... come on down. Ms. Barbara Shideler: Hi I am Barbara Shideler from Mason Architects. Ms. Holly McEldowney: I am Holly McEldowney from State Parks. This is also Anastasia Liten she is the superintendent for State Parks here on Kauai. Chair: Ok hold on for just a second. Ms. Sheehan: Yes I would like to recuse myself on this subject. I have a cabin. Ms. Shideler: Ok please feel free to comment if you feel. As a lessee we hope we will be hearing from you directly. August 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 4 Ms. Sheehan: I think you have got lots of thinking heads. You will hear a lot of good ideas. Ms.Shideler: Has everyone received a copy? Chair: Do you have an extra? I left mine at home. Ms. Shideler: I have an extra and also I made copies of the review tables. It's another review process which might be a little complicated. In fact we just met with the County Building Director. He already suggested some changes to our timeline (inaudible). Ms. McEldowney: We are here to get comments on our designs guidelines. We have included you in part of our process and one of the reasons we are here today is to make sure you agree to be part of the process. We are hoping that the County will help facilitate your participation in the process. These guidelines were initially prepared as part of Chapter 6E, Historic Preservation Review Process. It is a mitigation commitment under that process. We started looking at this in 2005 when the 20 year leases where coming up for Kokee. So the issuance pf leases is technically subject to Chapter 6E review. We are fortunate that we had an inventory survey done by Dawn Densing kindly fundfd by the Kokee Leaseholder's Association and Hui O Laka. Historic Preservation did accept thiit as a valid inventory and we made the mitigation commitment that we would prepare design standards to help the lessees and State Parks and everybody else involved in the process and try to maintain historic character of the cabins as well as the entire camp lots as a whole. So we committed to pair these guidelines and we also committed to include the guidelines in the lease agreement. And they are in the lease agreement now. We are pending our finalizing these design guidelines. So right now we are going through the agency reviews. All of the different agencies that have to deal with them, we are asking for comments. Once we have those integrated we are going to hold a meeting with the lessees and the public hopefully to get more comments from them the lessees can submit comments anytime they want. All of the lessees have had the 2008 draft version of these design guidelines as well. Ms. Shideler: So this is a fresh document, this is 2012 proposed design guidelines. So these are still in draft form until we get through agency screening. Ms. McEldowney: So ultimately they have to be accepted by Historic Preservation, Ms. Shideler: Let's just talk a little bit about what's included in here and how they organized it and how we anticipate they are going to be used. The first chapter does just that. It's an introduction to why they were prepared. You have got the quick version of that. The area that is subject to the guidelines. How we expect them to be used. Why design review is appropriate in this case. And who does the real work in preservation which is actually the agents and the lease holders. And we talk about who prepared the document and working on the regulatory background and Dawn Dunsing did the inventory and the history (inaudible). Our office did: the August 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 5 technical and design guidelines which are based very, very closely on the Secretary of Interior Standards for the Treatment of Historic Properties (inaudible). Ms. McEldowney: We tried to set up a design review process. We are trying to make it the least (inaudible) as possible and also try to integrate and coordinate all the different reviews and permits it might need by anybody. So we have sort of set up a three tiered system and this (inaudible) table one. We have divided it up into the types of actions that do not need review. (inaudible) even some of those actions the lessees could find good guidance in the design standards to follow. We hope there is useful information that actually makes this process easier for the lessees. The second tier are the less than major but still relatively .minor improvements that could affect the historic character of a property and those would really be subject to review by the Department of Land and Natural Resources, State Parks, and Historic Preservation. The third level are the major actions. You got new construction, major renovations of a residence, or demolition, or major site work. We tried to find the threshold, a more clear threshold. We thought about building permits if you need building permits or some other kind of agency permit that would trigger the third level and that's where we thought you might want to be involved. When it reaches that level of modification, we'd like you to be involved in that process just for your input. We recognize that a lot of the design options that are possible that are still appropriate it really helps to have people discuss them so that there are some agreement on what's feasible and what's best for the properties. So we would appreciate if you could participate. We did also a little review chart. As I said we just talked to the building director and he would actually like to have Historic Preservation's comments before he sees them so he can decide whether something is acceptable. Ms. Shideler: Let me just back up a little bit. We recognize that because these properties are in the conservation district, the county zoning laws are not really enforced up there so that's why typically your group would not see these undertakings but the State Parks are asking the lessees to get building permits for undertakings that warrant such and they are asking for KHPRC to review those. So those are two things above and beyond (inaudible) that additional levels of oversight for the historic district. We did speak with Doug Haigh from department of permitting and planning just before we came over here. There is no existing building code in the County of Kauai. Honolulu uses one and that helps with these kinds of structures that are kind of non - conforming. So he will be reviewing building permit submittals with the 2006 international building code (inaudible). There is a provision in there that historic buildings can receive, not a variance that's really not the right word, but exemptions or special consideration at the discretion of the Director of the Department which would be Doug Haigh and so what he would like is the example (inaudible) recreation residence and it has an ohia rails or the two by four plantation and they are three feet off the ground and they are just outside exemption for having rails that conform with the four inches that August 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 6 you see what does he do? I suggested in that particular case what our office is if you can put that historic rail back or replicate it (inaudible) and there is other ways to achieve the safety v'vithout completely eliminating the historic feature. That kind of thinking and sort of thinking around I think your group could be helpful and State Historic Preservation Office also. People are going to need help understanding where their project buts up against current building codes and what we can do about it. We address some of that in the design guidelines. I think we probably need to spell that out a little bit more about referencing a section in the building code (inaudible) exactly how people think creatively. It's hard to be restrictive about that but I think there is a way through and it will be trial and error at first. So building division would like, they requested that KIIPRC and the State Historic Preservation Office will get the proposed plans and make their comments before it goes to them so that they are being proactive rather than reactionary. So often that's what happens. You go for a pen-nit and you get comments from the building department and then you realize oh my goodness what this is going to do with the property. So your involvement in the process would be to help people understand what's significant about the cabin and their plans will eventually affect the historic character defining features. Ms. Griffin: I see it as a place for informing. Chair: Commissioners do you guys have any questions, comments? Ms. Griffin: I have a specific question about what you were just saying. Welcome to both of you. It's always a pleasure to see you inside or outside of our meetings. When you talked about the State wanting to go through and utilize the County for permits. If it didn't would the necessity of a solution for that kind of railing come up at all? A safety solution you know if it weren't all of a sudden subject to those constraints would there be a possibility of a more pure preservation, rehabilitation solution? Ms. Shideler: Yes basically things would continue in the way that have been ongoing all along. Cause I have never really done the research but I would be interested to see how many building permits have been really pulled for projects in that area. The State has a long term interest in these properties and making sure that the work that is done is quality work and that they are safe and habitable. So enforcement of the building code is one we are sure about. I found that the building division on Kauai and I have dealt with Doug and written letters asking for accept ions unless it is a fire safety issue, you don't have enough doors on the building or if some light safety issue I think generally they are fairly compliant. A railing that might, I mean the code says anything 30 inches and above /off the ground has to be this code there are ways to keep your historic rail and provide the safety there (inaudible). How long the mesh stays I really don't know but they attach wire mesh to meet the code and you know meet the letter of the law. August 2, 2012 K.Ii.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 7 There are things like (inaudible). If you are changing a window not doing anything to it but if you are going to upgrade it there are safety things that I think they would enforce. I don't see that necessarily using (inaudible). So there are a lot of safety provisions in the code, that don't necessarily affect the historic structure. When you have something that is purely aesthetic I think there is room for discussion which is nice about having a building that is historic. All of a sudden it's a matter of dialogue rather than having to enforce the letter of the law. Yes it does add all additional level of regulation. There is no doubt about it but I think in the long term.. . Ms. Griffin: And the State doesn't have the provisions to enforce safety requirements? Ms. McEldowney: There might be, in the lease language, there is probably some very broad statement about safety. It wouldn't be that explicit we'd have to look at it. I doubt that we would pursue it if we didn't think it was at a high level of risk or a real safety concern. Mr. Jung: I think the State is exempt from the building code but the State themselves choose to enforce the building code on these structures. So I think it's kind of a gray area in which they just ask for County review verses it been required. Ms. Griffin: So the County, the County building department creates a requirement whereas if not it would simply be advisory. I am just trying to get to. Ms. McEldo_ wney: I never really thought about that. I don't know if we should discuss it internally. I don't know if we should be looking at things that improve the safety of the structure. Ms. Griffin: Just to let you know I don't have an opinion. I am just trying to get the rational of it. Ms. Shideler: The level of review is going to be determined by State Parks upon initial submission of the improvement plans whether it's for new cabin or for repair or for whatever the work is. It's going to go DLNR State Parks and they are going to decide is this something that they can just go and do. Is it something that State Parks. Mr. Wichman: You are going to determine the levels. Level one, two. Ms. Shideler: The levels are outlined here. The Lessee will actually be the first one to determine the level (inaudible). They will say this is just for painting or repairing and calking windows that clearly is (inaudible) or I am going to change the windows or I am going to build a new porch with a cover or something like that and then it goes to State Parks. They decide whether they want it to go to the next level, level three where permitting is required. Ms. McEldownev: That would be major work or plumbing and electricity. There could be a case where there is internal plumbing and electricity work and we might want it to go through the department. We won't necessarily bring it to you because the internal really wouldn't affect the character, the external character of the residence. August 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 8 Mr. Wichman: Madame Chair. What is the role envisioned for the Kokee Advisory Council Council? Ms. McEldownev: Their role is set out in the statute that they are supposed to help advise and manage. It's like they are supposed to advise on the management of the recreational residence. Mr. Wichman: I can see level one and two being handled by the council itself. But in order for this commission to operate correctly and make a good decision we would have to work very closely with the Kokee Advisory Council on all of these. I can see that we can bring our expertise on level three absolutely. There is no question about it. Or we can be there to help the Kokee Advisory depending on how that goes. But on the general review period this council is going to keep going and so as a commission we would have to work very closely with them in that there is no langlaage pertaining to the Kokee Advisory Council and we need to know the position or your thoughts on that. Ms. McEldownev: We hadn't really discussed that with them and they will have to meet. We are having trouble getting the commission to be fully constituted. It does have enough appointees that it can meet and it can make decisions and it can make quorum. Mr. Wichman: Well the Kokee Advisory Council has been alive and thriving and definitely one must be careful when you discuss that. Ms. McEldownev: When they do meet we can put this on the agenda and ask how they envision their role and how they would like to participate. Mr. Wichman: When are you intending to talk to them about that? Ms. McEldownev: As soon as they meet. I don't know, I tried to get an answer yesterday as far as when they meet. Apparently the request has gone out for them to hold a meeting but it hasn't happened. Ms. Shideler: So they have this document in front of them as well. Mr. Wichman: Oh yes they have had a chance to review it definitely. Yolt know it's been a few years since: this has been out but in that there is updated language in this particular one. So once we sort it out then. I think we can understand the present position. But the role of the advisory council is critical in the decision making process in order that there wouldn't be any redundant system on the island. It is a legislative appointed council. It does have the authority over advisory oversight of it which essentially puts this commission within an advisory to the Kokee Council unless we decide that on level three which I am sure all of will want to have this discussion on level three. So level one and two? Also that my understanding is the Kokee Advisory Council Could be here next month on our next month's meeting. Ms. McEldownev: Are they requesting to be on the meeting? August 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 9 Mr. Wichman: Yes they are definitely asking to be on our next month's meeting. Ms. McEldowney: For a particular topic? Mr. Wichman: No the design review. Yes so my understanding is they are gonna be meeting pretty soon, reviewing the language and things like that. Then right here in order for we to make a discussion we have to have a conversation with the advisory council and then combine together I think we can either assume all responsibilities or in part. I know there are other languages within the advisory council that they would have to have an architect with present on there. So we know that there is other little things that he criteria is for. There would have to be an architect on that council. Currently there isn't but that is something... I think with a stroke of a pen that could be created anyways the position for an architect within this particular council. Ms. Shideler: They are gonna need one if their role is oversight. Mr. Wichman: Depending on the position DLNR is taking in regards to this council. We need to be very clear with that because this commission has to work very closely with that. And if you are interested then we can have a full discussion within us prior you taking in to the public sector. I think being able to have the comments from both the Kokee Advisory and the KPTPRC when you go into your public hearing I think it will help you clarify certain things anyway. The other one too is that is there any discussion for a National Historic Landmark Status for these parks. You know we are looking at essentially 3,000 acres on the top and another 3,000 that includes the lower sections of it. The Kokee State Park is essentially 6,000 acres in this you know. The other one too is the level of flexibility within the review process as to the types of materials that can be used. I know in the 2008 which I (inaudible) with the language to me seemed to have narrowed that down into rather restrictive elements. You know you need to have this kinds of door knobs you know and essentially, philosophically I agree yet the practical application of it was Kokee has security concerns. People break in so you know security locks need to be also incorporated into that. Some of the 21St Century elements of security right there. A little bit of flexibility on that. Also there were questions in the original survey that certain of the buildings were held under certain criteria where others were not. So it seemed that overall when you are mixing the basic philosophies certain of the preservation criteria were applied to certain of the cabins but not others. So it seemed like it was, it seemed a little bit arbitrary in the way that certain cabins ended up on the list and considered historical. Certain of the cabins that didn't make the historical list we requested it so. But I don't think at this particular point we really need to begin too. Ms. McEldowney: I think there were criteria that we used. Mr. Wichman: Yes absolutely but it was applied here but not there. August 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C, Meeting Minutes Page 10 Ms. McEldownev: At the time, at the level that say Dawn Dunsing had been able to come back and look at the structure and had more time to look at it or do more she might put it one way or the other. But all the structures will come through this process so that there will be a chance to upgrade. Mr. Wichman: Yes but some are more historical than others and then you know they lies in level or area for discussion. Absolutely if we are going to be making this the primary document then some of em is discussable but I am not sure if you are going to get into that but at this particular point I feel comfortable with this spot, dealing with the level three permits. Ms. Aiu: I am just listening to Randy talking about the Kokee Advisory Council which I am not familiar with but if you feel that they are so important do you think they should have someplace here on this review and approval process? Mr. Wichman; Absolutely. They are legislative appointed. They are the one whose review needs to be... well however that discussion goes I am surprised that there isn't a position for them at this particular point. Ms. McEldownev: I guess cause this is a historic preservation document and this body has that expertise to give expertise. That's why. Mr. Wichman: I agree. Level three. Level one and two that can easily go to council. Ms. McEldownev: And you would expect them to review it or want to help implement it or check it or however... Mr. Wiclunan: Whatever it is under mandates, within their advisory capacity to do. Ms. McEldownev: That is very, very broad. But yes certainly assist with the management of the... Mr. Wichman: And then the position of the KHPRC would be to assist the Kokee Advisory Council with any weans that they would have. We are famous for our pre - consultation business here too you know definitely an open door policy with this council for pre- consultation. So there is many ways this commission can work with that council which somehow we would have to and once we understood those parameters I think we would be able to divide the work load and get through it much faster cause I know this level one is a 15 day review period. Level two is a 45. Level three is a 60 day review period. Ms. McEldownev: That's historic preservation (inaudible). Mr. Wichman: It may be that at this particular point Kokee Advisory Council may let this commission handle certain things once they get certain elements in place within their council in order to meet these needs. So there may be a phase in period but we would, I would need to be August 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 11 able to talk to them and hear their views out before I think this commission can make a good decision and how it is we work together but work together we will. Chair: Any other comments? Ms. Griffitl: I don't have specific comments but let me just ask, you want more time. Holly essentially from step three state or county permits what Doug is suggesting is you take out the arrow from three to four then straight to county building, waste water and then just have it go to the left KHPRC and then across. Is that what he is suggesting? Ms. McEldowney: Let's see, on step four you would sort of shift the building permit down. Ms. Shideler: I think, what we would do is yes, bump up KHPRC and permits down so that you know.. . Ms. McEldowney: They would go through historic preservation. Ms. Griffin: Ok it looks you would take off directly down from State, if I understand you correctly, that the state or county permits. I see ok I got you. I have a couple of comments about the contents themselves and it is the fine work that I always anticipate from Mason Architects and from you Barbara. On page 7, oh and I am really happy to see in here work on the cultural landscape. I think that is so important and I know now that, that is part of the environment and that in historic preservation we have spent such a long time dealing with the structure we forget the context very often and it's really good and it leads us into things that are really not aren't appropriates sometimes for a building like use native planting which wasn't true for a 1936 building or whatever. So this is really good. The comment that I have is that I would like to suggest in on the incipient invasive species that you check, with somebody for instance the National Tropical Botanical Garden because incipient often becomes overwhelmingly invasive and the one that caught my eyes was the very first one Australian Tree Fern. Those spores, I actually have a son who works for NTBG and he is manager for the Limahuh Preserve so he has helicoptered up into the wilderness and those spores can travel two miles and so when you talk about them being good potential for being eliminated that Australian Tree Fern I think we are asking for a real menus to come. I remember going up there ten years ago or there about and Dave Boynton and he talking about the menus of the tree fern. So that's just a comment. If you •can get a sepond opinion between not recommended and recommended it would be helpful. I also wanted to mention, I have seen parts of this history before in the wonderful study that Dawn did some years ago. I know that the primary function is what it says design guidelines. But since you have this history and it's 2012 it would be really helpful to bring the up to date on the most recent auction and because that was not a smooth process. You all may not realize that. So I think that bringing it up close to date since it's gone this far that would be really helpful. August 2, 2012 K..I-1.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 12 And the last thing, it kind of goes back to the cultural landscape. Although this is specifically with properties part of the cultural landscape is in the responsibility of State Parks itself. The roads getting to the cabins, the plantings around the roads to the cabin all of that, I think there should be some awareness that it's not just the lessees and their immediate surroundings because most of the people who don't have a long term lease on a cabins see is that environment and that should be equally treasured, equally preserved, equally managed, if not more so. And so I would suggest that, that is a really important component of discussing historic district as these are. Ms. McEldowney; I think there is some reference to that (inaudible). Chair: Any other comments? Commissioners? Ms. Shideler: To address that in Chapter oneunder areas subject to design review guidelines the very last sentence does say, "the basic preservation concepts embodied by the Design Guidelines will also be applied to any projects proposed along access corridors or non - leased land within the Historic District boundaries." We could probably put a little bit more punch to it. Ms. Aiu: What page are you reading please? Ms. Shideler: That was page 1.2 and the very last sentence in the paragraph entitfed Area Subject to Design Guidelines. Mr. Wichman: The important Kokee reference is Mercy Whitney and the Hawaiian Historical Society right there in the library they have Mercy Whitney she writes from 1821 to 1873. The first real view of the Whitneys when they go up to Kokee to harvest their first lumber it gives you an early view of Kaikeoewa activities up there. It's always missing in every one of these Kokee historical overviews. Take a looke at Mercy Whitney's, it phenomenal and it's to the paint and it gives an 1820's view of Kokee, Halemanu, and everything like that. Which in other words would place the Halemanu section because of its proximity to Puu ka Pele Village and its clear oversight and its clear long term history as the gathering place. Not just for the bird catchers but for everything. It was the base camp for all of the Alii when they went up there prior to the and you know the Knudsen's selling it but it has a much older history. Mercy Whitney will give you an insight into that. Ms. Shideler: Ok thank you. Mr. Wichman: And I am sure when you go into the public meetings the issue of crown lands will come up. Kokee is crown lands so all the crown lands are certain guidelines within those lands themselves. It's a factor one must consider in certain, not necessarily the cabins itself but there is also cultural landscape that are out there that in time we will be possibly reviewing. I can see the design review but the historic preservation goes beyond just the cabin into all the different view planes and things like that. And then of course you know the idea of the Kokee vernacular is quite interesting right and then is a little bit of a broad (inaudible) plantation look but essentially we are cutting it off at that particular point in the way we describe Kokee vernacular and what it August 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 13 is that we want to preserve in the buildings and how these building exemplify the Koke& vernacular. Ms. Shideler: Absolutely (inaudible). Mr. Wichman: So new buildings would definitely be held to that vernacular. So we can take an example of it and say just as a technical exercise review something quickly and then you witl quickly be able to see. I think in part of, in my experience up there is that people are adding do to their decks or putting decks on their cabins and I think you are going to get requests for those you know things like that. Ms. Shideler: (Inaudible). Mr. Wichman: One of the classic vernacular is that state cabin right there at the park entrance right. You know it's, when people think of Kokee and kind of pick a particular cabin it is that entrance cabin right there and therefore it would be to the State Park's interest to make sure that this particular cabin has a proper function and use and is held to the quality of standards one would expect all the (inaudible). Because as we go to the state buildings we go to the DLNR cabin and how does that affect our things, the aquatics cabin you know the enforcement and all of theirs. We know that there is heavy impacts to those cabins right there so it is critical that the state maintains within their own cabin structures up there the level one would expect in all of the others too. We can discuss all of that area right there in order to shore up that park. Yes all the cabins that are under the DLNR there, enforcements, aquatics and all the other cabins that are up there. Ms. McEldownev: There are far fewer of them now then they had before. Aquatics no longer has. Mr. Wichman: That's a no, no because you know it's and also enforcements too again that was an oversight that was not the intention to not have DLNR have enforcement have a presence on the mountain. Within this island structure we all agree that enforcement needs to have 4 cabin up there. We know aquatics can take care of their cabin you know. We know you know there were things going on with the upkeep and maintenance of those that we describe. So in order to better address the public concerns that will be coming out think about that a little bit. Chair: Does anybody else want to speak? Mr. Wichman: If you are ok with Kokee Advisory being here next month then the motion we can propose at this particular time is that we would defer this until that meeting. Ms. McEldownev: Would it be an official joint meeting cause I presumably if they are going to be and they have X number of members they would have to have a quorum. Mr. Wichman: No, no this would be under pre - consultation with Kokee Advisory prior to this body making the final bits of recommendation you know we need to hear from them. So they August 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 14 would be on the agenda but they wouldn't be officially meeting but they would just be there to voice their concerns and listen to ours. Ms. Griffin: Randy I appreciate your experience on both and what you are saying with the need to communicate but I think as a county commission that is advisory to the Planning Commission and Planning Department what they are asking us for is our Historic preservation Review Commission expertise for this document and so I think we can do that now and then we can go.. . Mr. Wichman: Yes preliminary sets of recommendations for the next one would be next month absolutely. Ms. McEldownev: McEldownev: I have you like to see what requirements them to meet before they are and make sure there is not a Sunshine come here? Law issue. Would Mr. Wichman: No, no they would be here on a pre - consultation. Mr. Jung: Randy you are talking about referring this to them and then having it come... Mr. Wichman: No, no we are talking about having a discussion how this commission works with the council. Mr. Jung: So you want to have a joint meeting? Mr. Wichman: No not really. Mr. Jung: Cause once you have more than two commissioners come into the meeting to discuss board business then we would have to post for Sunshine Law, Ms. McEldownev: State would have to post an agenda. Mr. Wichman: Then how do we get advice from that council? Ms. McEldownev: They could have a meeting. We could post a meeting for them and you would post a meeting for you and it would be listed as a joint meeting between these two entities and then we could have a discussion. I can check. That is the way I see it happening unless we were to have an advisory council meeting if they were to appoint what they call a P I G, I don't know what P I G Stands for. Mr. Wichman: Permitted Interaction Group. Ms. McEldownev: Yes permitted interaction group and then you could have those three people who are appointed and they could come and speak on their behalf. Mr. Wichman: Kupee advisory would create a P I G and P I G could be here and discuss it with us. August 2. 2012 K.II.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 15 Ms. McEldownev: So we would have to have that meeting. Mr. hung: But you would have to establish the P I G before you go into your next meeting. Before you have you next meeting. Ms. McEldownev: We don't have one scheduled now so maybe this could be an impetus because we are always looking for an impetus because they ask and then things don't happen and then they fade away again. So if this is, it might be compelling to be able to say well the review commission want to discuss this with you on such and such date can we meet. Now we might pull it together. Mr. Wichman: Could we do it at 2:00 pm at our next meeting? Mr. Jung: We could but we have to wait. They have to properly properly agenda the establishment of the P I G by defining the scope and appointing the committee members and then once the committee members are set then it could come to this meeting. Ms. McEldownev: There are some moving parts that have to work. Mr. Jung: And then once you know they come back to report what you folks want the P I G would report to the Kokee Advisory Committee and then the Kokee Advisory Committee would make a final action. But I think you guys would need some kind of final action and recommendation kind of like what Pat was saying. Mr. Wichman: Yes and accept the precedent that this commission and that council works closely together and then I think we are good internally within the system I think we will be able to move through these 15, 45, 60 day periods quickly. Your review periods right? Ms. Shideler: Although some of that review is DLNR timelines. We did mention that when they have to go outside for county permits there is no timetable for that. It would be just how long it would take to get building permit. There is no set review time so you know can't help it I am sorry. Ms. McEldownev: Hopefully the process information. Mr. Wichman: I think what we are conce items through as quickly and efficiently bottom line for us is that we move the nothing stalls here right, would go more quickly cause rned at this particular point is as possible and this is what agenda items quickly throu€ Ms. Shideler: That would be critical to keep people coming through. we would have so much to be able to move these we are good at and the ,h our purview and that August 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutcs Page 16 Mr. Wichman: It's an important precedent to set in the early part that our intention is to move this material through in a timely manner. Ms. Aiu: So if I may, I am trying to get what you are coming from Randy with the advisory council and our role. You want the advisory council to just come and tell us their concern about? Mr. Wichman: I think the idea of them creating a P I G, those three people being here we will be that able to address all of our questions and enter into a working relationship and then prior to the final approval we are both in a working relationship together. Ms. Aiu: But their role to 4s would be they are going to tell us their concerns. Mr. Wichman: Well ultimately the review process is in their ball court but because we have the expertise here and the experience at this particular point this helps to facilitate, move it right now. Ms. Aiu: But I don't see the review process as being in the ball park. You guys can correct me if I am wrong because I don't even see them here. That is what I was saying at the very beginning yea that I don't see them here. Mr. Wichman: That was an oversight. Ms. Aiu: So where... Mr. Jung: I think here in teens of what our charge is, you guys are advisory to Planning Department and Planning Commission but in this case the State is asking ok please be advisor to what we see as our level as design review right. So the State is asking for your gays kokua in this process. So they don't trigger a zoning permit its gong to trigger building per %nit review but technically I don't even know if a true building permit will be issued because it will be a State Parks permit correct? : Ms. Shideler: It will be a building permit. Mr. Jung: I am going to have to go back and work with Doug to figure out how this is really going to work cause my understanding is a building permit triggers a zoning permit so I will have to go back and work this a little bit more. Chair: Aren't we asking that review commission to give us their opinion on this, isn't that what we are asking? I mean so that we can make our comments. Mr. Jung: But I do see the ling because the State is asking you guys to get involved of getting the Kokee Advisory Commission involved because technically their kuleana is the management. You guys would be advising to the State and possibly this advisory commission would be reporting to the state so it's kind of all blending together now and I see the direction you guys want to go in terms of incorporating this body but in terms of what role you folks will take in August 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 17 actually recommendation we are going to try pin that down because whether it's through building permit, cause it's a zoning permit that triggers your review; building permit not necessarily. So we are going to have to work together to identify in you scope and your outline at what point does it come to you guys and who refers it to you guys. Is it the State Parks or is it Building Division? So those are little quirks that we have to figure out on your side. But if you guys do want to get involved with the advisory committee I don't see a problem with that but I think your focus is the historical aspect of it verses the management of it but I think you could blend the two. Ms. Aiu: Well I am not in favor of blending ok. I want us, that's why I am asking, what is exactly are we asking the Kokee Advisory Commission? Now anybody can talk and usually when we are doing something with North Shore and we know that they have a group and they say what did the North Shore Commission say? I can see it as that, that they will come to us and say that they really didn't like this part and we will say tell us why cause we don't know right. That's how I see this coming. I don't want it to be anything more than that. I ddn't want them to be part of our commission. I still think we are a separate entity and we have our own which might be above my role. That part I am not positive with that so I am just looking at but if that's your intention tell us stuff that's a good intention I didn't want it to go any further than that is what I am saying. Mr. Wichman: Of course all of the review and things like that but we would work 'closely with them in establishing that relationship right at the front would help us internally on our own island move things quicker and we have an open dialogue with them. I don't expect us to be inundated with any Kokee permits. So it's not like you are going to triple our work load if we say yes. No I am not worried about that but I just want to make sure we start off on the right foot with the Kokee Council, Ms. McEldownev: So when the Kokee Council there will be two things that they discuss. One, if they have any comments and the second one is how do they envision participating in this bigger process as times goes on. Ms. Aiu: Thank you. That defines more what I was looking for. Mr. Wichman: Then I think internally we can be much more useful. Internally we would be able to come to a consensus much more quickly. Ms. McEldownev: So those are the two things I would put say on the agenda in addition to create the P I G. Ms. Sheehan: Do you think that September 6 is enough time for you to get your meeting because you are looking for incentive and then create a P I G. Ms. McEldownev: I will let everybody bow as soon as I know. I think it is good to push because I know there has been little attempts and they didn't seem to go anywhere. Someone August 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 18 didn't answer or whatever. I think that will be good and I will try to let you kiiow. Give me two weeks if it's a little iffy then maybe September. Mr. Jun : I think September will be difficult cause then they got to do their agenda six days before. Hold the meeting. Establish the P I G. Find the scope of the P I G and then go in and have committees start looking at how they are going to interact with you guys and then come back and have a meeting with you guys and then go back and report back. Ms. Sheehan: Then it's Labor Day. I am not sure that. Mr. Jung: I think a month would be tight. Ms. McEldowney: We will try. Ms. Sheehan: Well if it doesn't happen in September I think we should make sure we adjust and get ready for October. Mr. Wichman: It is critical that this does not stall here. Ms. McEldowney: Well and we have to have that meeting with the lessees to get them comments too. Mr. Wichman: Yes but that is within your public review peridid. Right now we are essentially III a prefinal discussion. Ms. Anastasia Liten: Would it be a quicker process to have the joint meeting verses having to take extra steps? Ms. McEldowney: No I think it would be better to have it separate cause I think it has to elect a chair. Mr. Wichman: I think what Danita said about when we deal with the Hanalei Roads Committee and stuff like that whenever we have, and others I am just picking that as an example, that we would post this on our agenda on our next meeting right there whoever is within that council could take that seat right there and address at this particular point without creating a P I G. Without doing anything like that I am kind of curious why is that different in that they are not able to sit at that table and address us. Mr. Jung: They could technically take a formal action and have a representative come and discus the action. Mr. Wichman: But when Hanalei Roads Committee comes here it's just one or two of the individuals that represent that committee speaks right there on behalf of the committee and yet we accept that. August 2, 2012 K.H.P.R.C, Meeting Minutes Page 19 Ms. McEldownev: I don't know if they are a Governor's appointed or commission. Kokee is a Governors appointment. Ms. Aiu: So it has to go under sunshine whereas the little community committees don't. Mr. Jun a: Hanalei Roads Committee is that a government? DOT? Mr. Wichman: It's private. Mr. Jung: Oh yea Sunshine Laws don't apply to them. Mr. Wichman: Ok let's work on the P I G then. Mr. Hironaka: Well not to add to your stress but the next meeting is September the 6t" so for us to meet our Sunshine Law requirements we would need to know if in fact you will be able to bring it back to this body at least ten days prior. Ms. McEldownev: So you want to get the packets out. Mr. Hironaka: Well at least let us know if you think you will be able to get everything complete at that time. Mr. Jun a: You ten days? Or six days? Mr. Hironaka: Well seven days for her cause she has to make the agenda and stuff. Mr. Jun a: We have to post on the 31st so we should know by the 30", August 30" Mr. Wichman: And I think this puts the proper pressure on the Kokoee Advisory for a working relationship. Ms. McEldownev: For them to start working. I know previously they were focused on other things but now (inaudible). Chair: Alright are there any other commments? Ok we will see you in a month if not two months. Ms. McEldownev: If anyone else has any comments let me know we are still working on it. Chair: Ok thank you. SELECTION OF NEXT MEETING DATE AND AGENDA TOPICS The next KHPRC meeting was scheduled on Thursday, September 6, 2012. August 2, 2012 KH.P.R.C. Meeting Minutes Page 20 ADJOURNMENT The meeting was adjourned at 4:07 p.m. :ally Submitted, U. Jimenez Secretary, Date: t e7i l e --