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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2013-3-28 Open Space Commission Minutes PUBLIC ACCESS , OPEN SPACE & NATURAL RESOURCES PRESERVATION FUND COMMISSION REGULAR MINUTES March 28, 2013 A regular meeting of the Public Access, Open Space & Natural Resources Preservation Fund Commission of the County of Kauai was held in the Lihue Civic Center, Moikeha Building, in meeting room 2A/2B . The following Commissioners were present: Nathaniel Childs, Chairperson Theodore Blake Linda Dela Cruz Luke Evslin Dorothea Hayashi Maurice Nakahara Absent and excused: Joseph Figaroa Patrick Gegen John Lydgate The following staff members were present: Nam Sadora and Duke Nakamatsu and Deputy County Attorney Ian Jung. CALL TO ORDER Chair Childs called the meeting to order at 1 : 16 p .m. APPROVAL OF AGENDA On the motion by Linda Dela Cruz and seconded by Maurice Nakahara to approve the agenda, the motion carried by unanimous voice vote. ANNOUNCEMENTS There were no announcements. The Commission received testimony from Tim Kallai, 1 V:\2013 Master Files\Commissions\Open Space\Meetings\2013-3-28 Minutes Mr. Kallai questioned the status of the Kauapea easement. Kilauea Neighborhood Association will be having a Board meeting and he would like to provide any feedback to the Board. Deputy County Attorney Jung noted that it was not listed as an agenda item for discussion, but he would provide a briefing to Mr. Kallai during the break. Mr. Kallai noted that Council Chair Furfaro was a little upset that it has fallen off the radar. They would like to be able to provide an update. The Commission received testimony from Peter Waldo regarding Kaakaaniu. Deputy County Attorney Jung noted that it was not listed as an agenda item, but the Commission could receive the testimony and place it on the next agenda if they would like to have discussion. Mr. Waldo stated that Kaakaaniu, to the right of Larsen' s Beach Road, is an ahupuaa between Moloaa and Lepeuli owned by Patricia Hanwright. He referenced an 1878 map that was included as an exhibit in an abstract regarding public access rights-of-way to Moloaa in 1978 by Na Ala Hele State trails system. They have information on the horse postal delivery routes that went North on what is now Koolau Road and came back along the coastal alaloa. He referenced letters from kupuna that discuss using the trail between Moloaa Bay and Larsen ' s beach along the alaloa in the 1930s and 1940s . He included a testimony of Bob Schleck the Director of Waioli Corporation to the Kilauea Neighborhood Association describing the history of Larsen' s Beach Road where he claimed the access was a pretty strenuous hike. He referenced an internal memo within Na Ala Hele of March 2000 stating that fee simple ownership of the section of alaloa passing through Kaakaaniu and Lepeuli is with the State of Hawaii. In 2001 , the new owner of the property renamed it Moloaa Bay Ranch and they surveyed a coastal trail entering in through Kaakaaniu. He referenced an excerpt of a letter from 2007 stating that Na Ala Hele recently completed a trail abstract of property owned by Joseph Hanwright connecting to the trail on Moloaa Bay Ranch, ensuring that the public trail traversing both properties must be established first and foremost to ensure contiguous perpetual public easement. He referenced photographs of the trail on the CD he submitted (on file). He referenced a letter of March 2007 stating that the easement on the Moloaa Bay Ranch property terminates at the previously existing gate on the easement of the Department' s Na Ala Hele trail. DLNR has determined that the historic trail identified on the registered maps is still owned by the State . The DLNR assured Patricia Hanwright that they were sensitive to private property rights with associated liability concerns and equally so about ensuring minimal disturbance to the small colony of albatross that seasonally nest on the property and apparently where the trail may be located. He stated that his photos document the trail but there are no albatross . He referenced a letter of December 2009 from Malama Moloaa and a letter from Council woman Kawahara to the State pointing out that the trail has been blocked off. Chair Childs took agenda item G.3 . out of order to accommodate testimony from Hope Kallai, 2 VA2013 Master Files\Commissions\Open Space\Meetings\2013-3-28 Minutes NEW BUSINESS Testimony from Hope Kallai regarding beach accesses at Moloaa and Kauapea. Ms. Kallai stated that there are segments with problems regarding the concept of a through-trail in the Kooalu district. It has been on the community radar for about a decade and they don 't know what to do about it. The trail from Moloaa was a cultural byway. To close it off half way would not allow access to the resources that the trail was preserved for. According to Aunty Loke, limu pickers and horses have fallen off into the ocean and died. She does not want to see more deaths there because the fence is in the wrong place. The Council has written to the State with no response. It is a coastal trail with metes and bounds in Moloaa and it appears again in Waipake. There are situations in the Hanwright property. There has to be a way to get from the trail to the limu without people going over the edge. There is also a situation arising in Kilauea with a large house on the Kilauea side of the river; the Somers property. The road that goes past the house goes to the boat ramp on the river and is a traditional fishing access and is also the alaloa. The owners do not want the trail in front of their house. Chair Childs asked for clarification that the land owner also donated a piece of land for preservation. Deputy County Attorney Jung noted that Kahili Beach Road is not on the agenda and cautioned the Commission to limit discussion to specific agenda items. Ms. Kallai stated that her PowerPoint includes photos of the trail. When they brought to the Moloaa Hui Property Owner' s Association ' s attention that that trail was blocked, they cleared it within a week. She noted the trail goes from the property line to the ironwoods and it needs to be designated going from the Papaa side down to the beach. She believed it was part of the original County easement and she does not know where it is. If it can be located on the maps it would be good. She noted that there is a chain blocking the easement and surfers are wondering where the access is. Deputy County Attorney Jung noted it is purportedly private property and they don't know the intent of the original easement. He noted the existing County parking lot and access easement. They also acquired another easement to connect with Papaa Bay. The question of the gate is a matter of a 100 yard walk around. Ms. Kallai stated that the subdivision map in the Aliomanu Estates indicates that the access went all the way to the end of the property. Now there is a gate. She questioned how they lost the easement and questioned the authority of the chain. The Moloaa Hui lands access was blocked up to 5 ' high in some places, for about 1/4 mile. Since Councilmembers Rapozo and Kagawa visited the site, it has been cleared. From the ironwoods, the trail needs to be designated. She presented another idea from Herb Silva for an additional access at Moloaa from a little strip of property about 10 ' wide that goes to the beach and would double the access to 3 VA2013 Master Files\Commissions\Open Space\Meetings\2013-3-28 Minutes Moloaa Bay. She stated that it would be like the access to through the former Hoban property in Poipu. Chair Childs questioned the owner of that strip of land. Ms. Kallai responded that the owner is Gertrude Watase. The Commission received testimony from Herb Silva. Mr. Silva stated that there used to be a road during WW2 that went alongside the beach. Over time the road was swallowed up and what they are seeing are remnants of the road. Ms. Kallai stated that the County access is difficult. The alternate would facilitate access . Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that the Commission could place it on a future agenda for discussion. Regarding the concept of a 10 mile long coastal corridor foot path along the Koolau district, she stated that there are 12 mauka/makai County accesses that have no lateral connection. She is requesting that the State connect the dots from Aliomanu to Princeville. There are laws that enable lateral, coastal, safe transit and her request was to designate it as a foot trail because it is an archaeological site. Attorneys have told her that there is no reference of the alaloa on the maps . She noted that maps were made in English and the only Hawaiian map maker was Samuel Kalama and he did not include any trails. In the 1833 Emerson map, the coastal trail was mapped. She suggested that they establish it along the ancient trail wherever they can. If it has already fallen into the ocean, then they should establish it where it is easy. They need to know where they can legally hike. The concept is to preserve a foot trail in the Koolau District, 10 miles long, connecting to other multi-modal paths. Commissioner Evslin questioned how the vision would apply to Papaa Bay and if there is a north side exit. Ms. Kallai stated that there is access both ways. Most people don't know about the 85 acre strip in front of the Hui lands preserved for the precipitous pali . It is an opportunity that will be lost if they don't do it this decade. Commissioner Evslin questioned if it would be made safer. Ms. Kallai stated that was the reason the Council was pushing for a more friendly access. There will be multiple multi-modal needs . She noted that it is an archaeological site and not appropriate for everyone, but it is important to preserve it. The right of lateral safe transit exists in Hawaii State Statutes. There are less than 10 property owners along the 10 miles. The Commission thanked Ms . Kallai for her presentation. 4 VA2013 Master Files\Commissions\Open Space\Meetings\2013-3-28 Minutes APPROVAL OF MEETING MINUTES Regular meeting minutes of 3/ 14/ 13 On the motion by Theodore Blake and seconded by Linda Dela Cruz to approve the minutes of 3/14/13, the motion carried by unanimous voice vote. UNFINISHED BUSINESS Status on acquisition plan for a portion of TMK (4) 2-6-003 : 017 to obtain a pedestrian public beach access easement to Kukuiula Bay through the former Hoban property. Deputy County Attorney Jung has been informed that the counter appraisal from the land owner is done. He will be meeting the 2nd week of April to discuss the appraisal and determine the next steps . He noted that Commissioner Blake will be discussing alternate access possibilities under agenda item GA . Commissioner Blake stated that he spoke with two Board members and the President of the Koloa Community Association and they are expecting to begin with the development plan update. It would be better to bring up the discussion after a comprehensive review of Koloa. Deputy County Attorney Jung clarified that the Planning Department is updating the Koloa-Poipu-Kalaheo Development Plan. Commissioner Blake asked for clarification that the process they are going through with this easement would probably take a few months . Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that if it goes to condemnation, it could take a few years depending upon how the case progresses. Commissioner Blake questioned the timeline if the land owner is willing. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that if they can negotiate a sale, it would be up to the County Council to appropriate the funds. Then they negotiate the land sales agreement and close. That would be contingent upon agreement of the sale. If not, condemnation would lead to litigation. Chair Childs questioned the timeline for Commissioner Blake. Commissioner Blake stated that it is hard to gauge the County' s timeline. His understanding is that they have selected a contractor. 5 VA2013 Master Files\Commissions\Open Space\Meetings\2013-3-28 Minutes Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that the next step would be to formulate the Development Plan committee members and do the kick of party. Sometimes it can be six months, sometimes a year. He noted that the Kapaa-Wailua Development plan has taken seven years. The current Planning Director is motivated to move on the plans because the update to the General Plan is also approaching. Commissioner Blake requested withdrawal of his discussion on alternate accesses. Deputy County Attorney stated that he will update the Commission on his discussion with the land owner and the Commission can decide whether or not they will recommend that Council utilize Open Space funds for this particular access . Chair Childs requested adding "or alternate accesses" to this agenda item so they can still discuss any other options. Review and discussion on past recommendations and prioritization of the Commission' s work plan/timeline of events and activities through 2013 including_ • Criteria spreadsheet for recommendations list (2013 report) Chair Childs stated that at the last meeting he asked Commissioners to think of sites they would like to recommend and present to the public. His idea was to narrow down a list rather than starting with 100 properties like in the past. From the list of properties, they can further narrow it down with public input. He asked Deputy County Attorney Jung for an update on the buffer for Salt Pond Beach Park. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that most of the surrounding properties are owned by the State of Hawaii. The property to the North, above the park, is under the jurisdiction of the Agriculture Development Corporation which is under the State of Hawaii, Department of Agriculture. They would have to request an executive order to establish park purposes. It is a novel idea that he did not think has been brought to the State before; an executive order not for development by way of infrastructure or improvements, but for the purposes of conserving the area to avoid impacts downstream. There are concerns with potential breaking of leases on the property which is being used for mono-crop agricultural operations . There is also a process for executive orders that would have to go through the Board of Land and Natural Resources to make a recommendation and the Governor' s Office for signature. It would have to be for a stated purpose. He did not know what the reaction would be for purposes of conservation. He could set up a meeting with the State, but requested refinement of the intent of the buffer zone. It could be categorized as view plane issues, dust mitigation, agricultural mitigation, or clean water improvements . Commissioner Hayashi noted that Mr. Nobrega' s testimony provided reasons. Chair Childs questioned if it could be for all of those purposes. 6 VA2013 Master Files\Commissions\Open Space\Meetings\2013-3-28 Minutes Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that the Commission questioned the possibility of utilizing the Hawaiian Islands Land Trust' s services to approach the State. Chair Childs stated that the Commission wanted to ask if it would be a candidate for a conservation easement. Commissioner Evslin stated that it might be easier to pursue a conservation easement, if their intent was only for conservation. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that conservation easements are usually used to restrict activities on private lands in an effort to preserve and conserve timber, marshes, etc. The process is set up through executive order which is like a license agreement where the State retains ownership and the County has stewardship of the land. It is the same function as a conservation easement in government terms. They could try that approach, but the executive order may be the best approach because they have done it before. Commissioner Evslin questioned if there has ever been agricultural land that has been re- zoned as conservation or if a conservation easement has ever been granted on agricultural land. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that conservation land has come out of State Land Use District conservation and ag, and it has probably gone from agriculture to conservation somewhere in the State, but it would take a Land Use Commission petition and he did not know if the State would be interested in converting that land. Commissioner Evslin asked for clarification that the land would still be zoned agriculture but with a conservation easement granted on it. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that conservation easement language is designed for some specific preservation type purpose. It comes down to the specific language between the management entity which controls the conservation easement land and the owner of the property. They enter into a contract restricting certain activities in that conservation easement area and there is enforcement. If the land owner violates a provision, they have remedies in court to sort it out. Commissioner Evslin questioned if any of the land is currently being used for agriculture. Commissioner Dela Cruz noted that corn is growing on the land which is a concern of the salt makers . Chair Childs clarified that they would like to acquire the land up to the highway. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that if they are able to set up a meeting it would be good for two Commissioners to attend. 7 VA2013 Master Files\Commissions\Open Space\Meetings\2013-3-28 Minutes Chair Childs stated that he is recommending Salt Pond, Coco Palms, Kauapea, access through the former Hoban property, and Lawai Kai to Port Allen. He noted that Commissioner Gegen recommends Salt Pond, Coco Palms, Kauapea, and Larsen ' s Beach. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that the issue brought up by Ms . Kallai is regarding signage. He is working with the Kauai Life Guard Association for placards at certain beaches . He suggested listing general signage as a recommendation. He did not think they could utilize Open Space funds, but suggested a dossier to Council to figure out a system for signage and trail maintenance. It would fall under the jurisdiction of the Department of Public Works. It may be difficult to establish a crew with the current budget, but the Commission can include it on the list as general signage and trail maintenance. Commissioner Blake recommended Salt Pond and Hapa Trail. He noted that Waita was included as a past recommendation. He noted that it is private property and a liability issue. Deputy County Attorney Jung noted that when it comes to acquisition, whether they need to negotiate a sale or go for condemnation there is always the issue of liability. Counties ordinarily accept liability on grants of easements. The Council weighs whether or not to accept the risk. How much weight the Commission gives a consideration is up to the Commission but the ultimate decision maker is the County Council. Commissioner Blake stated that his recommendations would be Salt Pond, Coco Palms, Moloaa, and access to Kaneiolouma. Chair Childs noted that the Commission has made contact with Rupert Rowe. His understanding is that he will approach the Commission when he needs further assistance. Commissioner Blake stated that they received funding from the CFD for the wall, but he did not believe they have any more than that. If Kukuiula goes for another bond, there will be more money for Koloa projects. Chair Childs agreed to include the access to Kaneiolouma. Commissioner Dela Cruz stated that she agrees with the recommendations as is . She felt they were all important and felt they should concentrate on what they have listed. Commissioner Hayashi stated that her recommendation would be for Puolu Point. He noted that there was a heiau there, but almost all of the rocks are gone. She referenced a map that was drawn by a 90 year old man referencing a shrine for the Japanese fisherman. Commissioner Blake noted that heiau encompasses everything that could be a shrine or a religious place. 8 VA2013 Master Files\Commissions\Open Space\Meetings\2013-3-28 Minutes Commissioner Hayashi referenced Benson' s report from the 1800 ' s noting that there was nothing left but rubble, but there was a huge heiau at Puolu Point at one time. She also recommended Alekoko Fish Pond. Commissioner Evslin stated that he would like to recommend Salt Pond and Papaa Bay. Commissioner Nakahara stated that he would recommend Kauapea along with everything else. He questioned the reference at a previous meeting of another County acquisition next to the Hodge property. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that they are currently going through condemnation on parcels to the south east. There is an executive order for the sand spit. The County has the Hodge property, the Black Pot Beach Park, the sand fronting the beach park, and currently in litigation are the Sheehan parcels at the corner of Weke Road. It is a contested condemnation. Chair Childs suggested separating accesses from and land acquisitions. He suggested including more properties that can be acquired utilizing the funds. Commissioner Nakahara noted the access through the former Hoban property would require purchase or condemnation. Commissioner Hayashi questioned reverse mortgages and whether they are able to be purchased. Chair Childs stated that it would be good to look into. Commissioner Evslin stated that the future of agricultural land is a concern. A lot of the land is degraded and can only support mono-cropping. There is a lot of land still designated as viable agriculture land but it is not that viable. The future of those lands would be industrial farming or development. He would like to see a push for providing a viable option. He suggested exploring the idea of a non-profit organization that would be dedicated to reforestation as a viable third option in which they would approach the Commission with the land identified. Commissioner Blake questioned if the suggestions can be categorized and prioritized so their time can be spent more efficiently. Some of the recommendations are dreams and will require a lot of work. Chair Childs noted that part of the process involves narrowing down the list. They will decide as a group which recommendations they can pursue or which are the most important culturally. They will also take the list to the public . They cannot focus I % on their time on 100 recommendations. He would prefer to spend his time on those where they can make a difference. He noted that all of the recommendations are on the spreadsheet. He asked the Commissioners to review the criteria and to research the recommendations if they need more information. 9 VA2013 Master Files\Commissions\Open Space\Meetings\2013-3-28 Minutes Commissioner Blake questioned determining the degree of difficulty for acquiring each recommendation. Chair Childs stated that they have to start somewhere. He felt that even though Salt Pond may be difficult, it is worth going after. They pursued the access through the former Hoban property because there was a need for access and the money was there, but it wasn't acted on. He agreed with Commissioner Evslin that if they stop pursuing it now, it would be a disservice to past Commissioners . The Commission has a tendency of changing members before anything gets done. He was told when he was appointed, to just do something. He asked the Commissioners to evaluate the recommendations and they will discuss them further. Commissioner Evslin commented that was inspirational; just do something. Discussion on updating the he Open Space Commission' s webpag_e. Chair Childs stated that they will open up discussions on the recommendations on the web page when the web page is ready. Discussion on acquisition of land to expand Salt Pond Beach Park Deputy County Attorney Jung stated he will make initial contact with the State and set up a meeting for the Commission to make their pitch. NEW BUSINESS (Continued) Review and discussion on the draft Resolution on Coco Palms by the Kauai County Council . Chair Childs stated that he did not feel the need for further discussion. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that they can track what the Land Trust is doing at the Legislature and see where the Money Bill is moving. Commissioner Evslin clarified that the Commission is just waiting. Deputy County Attorney Jung cautioned that the issue is still moving through Administrative litigation on the permits. The Commission can track the progress, but they would need to wait until the entitlement issue is done before they consider acquisition. The Commission received testimony from Rayne Regush. 10 VA2013 Master Files\Commissions\Open Space\Meetings\2013-3-28 Minutes Ms. Regush noted that it would be valuable to have a letter of support from the Commission to Senator Kouchi and other State Representatives supporting the grant in aide submitted by the Hawaiian Islands Land Trust for a community based planning process and to create a funding plan for future acquisition. On the motion by Theodore Blake and seconded by Linda Dela Cruz to send a letter of support, the motion carried by unanimous voice vote. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that staff can draft a general letter of support with Chair Childs as the signator. Discussion by Commissioner Blake regarding alternate accesses to Kukuiula Bay_ Chair Childs stated that this item will be added into the update on status of acquisition plan for access to Kukuiula Bay as "or other options". COMMISSION EDUCATION Status update regarding_upcoming_public access workshop . Presentation by Planning Department regarding conditions, dedications, and entitlements through Subdivision and Special Management Area processes. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that he could present from his notes today or he can prepare a PowerPoint presentation for the next meeting. Commissioner Dela Cruz stated that a PowerPoint would be good. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that is will take about 30 to 40 minutes. Chair Childs stated that they will have a PowerPoint presentation at the next meeting. UNFINISHED BUSINESS (Continued) Discussion on 2013 public input process for developing the biennial list of priority projects to be reported to the Kauai County Council and the Mayor. Chair Childs noted that the Hanapepe Library event will be on April 6 and the Anahola Days Festival will be from May 3 -6. Commissioner Hayashi noted that the Hanapepe Library event will be from 9 : 00 a.m. to 2 : 00 p .m. on Saturday. 11 V:\2013 Master Files\Commissions\Open Space\Meetings\2013-3-28 Minutes Commissioner Blake stated that he will participate with Commissioner Hayashi. He can bring a table and chairs for the display. Commissioner Hayashi questioned if more than two Commissioners could attend. Deputy County Attorney Jung noted that if more than two Commissioners want to attend they could form a Permitted Interaction Group, but they would have to detail the scope. Ms. Sadora noted that she can provide copies of their past report and the new Ordinance. Chair Childs stated that they should present the list of properties they just suggested, but because they don 't have anything written up, they could just ask what properties the public would like to see purchased using the fund and why. Ms. Sadora stated that they can utilize the survey forms from last year identifying the address, owner' s name, the protection they are looking at, and why. It would highlight the three recommendations from last year. Commissioner Dela Cruz felt that would be sufficient. Chair Childs agreed that they should keep it simple. The Commission received testimony from Rayne Regush. Ms. Regush suggested that it may be a good opportunity to solicit accesses that may be blocked or have become problematic so there can be in inventory list. Chair Childs stated that they will leave it broad in scope. Discussion on island-wide list of accesses and cataloging access conditions. Chair Childs stated that this is an ongoing project. He questioned the purpose of this agenda item. Commissioner Blake stated that he requested a list of accesses . He is working on making it easier to read. He will narrow it down including the districts and tax map key numbers. The Commission received testimony from Rayne Regush. Ms. Regush suggested that committees be formed to do site visits so they can determine the state of the accesses from the old inventory and divide them up by districts. She suggested keeping the agenda item continuous to open up more public interest and input. 12 VA2013 Master Files\Commissions\Open Space\Meetings\2013-3-28 Minutes NEXT MEETING DATE AND AGENDA TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION Chair Childs stated that the presentation from Planning Department will be at the next meeting. He requested a new agenda item to discuss Kaakaaniu. They will select the Commissioners to attend the meeting with the State at the next meeting regarding the buffer for Salt Pond. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that normally the Chair and another Commissioner attends meetings with State or County officials . Two Commissioners can attend meetings and discuss board business as long as there is no agreement to vote. Commissioner Blake stated that would defer to the West side Commissioners. Commissioner Hayashi stated that Commissioner Dela Cruz should attend since she was working on it for many years . Deputy County Attorney Jung noted that he will keep them posted on the meeting date . Commissioner Hayashi questioned if one of the salt makers could attend. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that they should keep it internal and when it comes back to the full Commission, the public can be invited for discussion. Commissioner Blake noted that under the State Scenic Byways program, once you are designated and complete the corridor management plan that is accepted by the Department of Transportation, there are grants specifically for signage, trails, and safety from the Federal Highway Administration. He felt that it may be an avenue for Ms . Kallai ' s concept. He noted that there is a designated byway in Koloa that was the first on Kauai. The Federal Government provides funding for the corridor management plan that can run from $50,000-$ 80,000. They were fortunate to have the tourist industry in Koloa. They are looking for signage, off street parking, and interpretive centers . The funds are earmarked and the County doesn 't have to utilize County funds. Deputy County Attorney Jung stated that he will provide a briefing on Kaakaaniu at the next meeting because it is primarily a State issue. Chair Childs requested that staff draft a letter of support for Coco Palms. He stated that everything from unfinished business can continue on the next agenda. He reminded Commissioners to work on the spreadsheet. 13 VA2013 Master Files\Commissions\Open Space\Meetings\2013-3-28 Minutes ADJOURNMENT Chair Childs adjourned the meeting at 3 : 59 p.m. Respectfully submitted by: Duke Nakamatsu, Support Clerk 14 V:\2013 Master Files\Commissions\Open Space\Meetings\2013-3-28 Minutes