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HomeMy WebLinkAboutKauai Humane Society FY2013-2014 DEPARTMENTAL BUDGET REVIEWS April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 1 The departmental budget review reconvened on April 11, 2013 at 9:11 a.m., and proceeded as follows: Kauai Humane Society Honorable Tim Bynum Honorable Gary L. Hooser Honorable Nadine K. Nakamura Honorable Mel Rapozo Honorable JoAnn A. Yukimura Honorable Jay Furfaro Excused: Honorable Ross Kagawa Chair Furfaro: Aloha, good morning everyone. I would like to call back from recess our posted budget reviews for today, Thursday, the 11th of April. Today we plan to address the Kaua`i Humane Society, the Kaua`i Liquor Control, break for lunch, the County Attorney's Office, and Economic Development in the afternoon. That is today's plan. Now I also want to reconfirm that I have addressed to Mr. Steve Hunt correspondence that resembles the narrative that we are anticipating from the Administration to get to us as our standard Q&A piece. I want to make sure that we all have that, along with two pages of program budgeting as it relates to the funding for the County's participation. So on that,we have four seats. I would like to know who would like to come up and join us from the Humane Society? We can take up to four people. To the Kaua`i Humane Society I want to say welcome to you folks and we would like you to start by introducing yourselves, and then the reason I had mentioned we can take up to four people at a time was Steve, the Humane Society appears as part of your budget. So I want to make sure that you know that you and Mr. Barreira are welcome to take a seat. Okay? I am Jay Furfaro. I am the Chairman of the Kaua`i Council and start by having you introduce yourself to us? PENNY CISTARO, Executive Director, Kaua`i Humane Society: My name is Penny Cistaro and I am the Executive Director for the Kaua`i Humane Society. Chair Furfaro: Welcome. Ms. Cistaro: Thank you. Chair Furfaro: Do we have an Accounting type of person here? WILLIAM EARNSHAW, Business Manager, Kaua`i Humane Society: My name is William Earnshaw, and I am the Business Manager of the Kaua`i Humane Society. Chair Furfaro: Do you go by William or Bill? April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 2 Mr. Earnshaw: William, please. Chair Furfaro: Very good. STEVEN A. HUNT, Director of Finance: Steve Hunt, Director of Finance. Chair Furfaro: Now on that note you shared a document with us and I am going to let you first start your presentation with us as it relates to what you have submitted to us. Ms. Cistaro: Well, my presentation is a request to sit down with representatives from the County and negotiate a contract. As you can see from the documents that we have presented for you, we are operating at a large deficit to the County funding, and in order to continue to provide the services that we currently provide, we will need additional funding from the county. If the county is not able to provide that additional funding, then we really need to sit down and address the level of services that the county wants provided through the contract. But the Humane Society cannot continue to sustain this level of loss to the contract. Chair Furfaro: May I ask, you have had and I am directing this to Steve, you have had discussions with the Humane Society about the status of our financial situation? Mr. Hunt: Yes, I have and we have also discussed the status of their financial situation and are in the process of working on a scope of work for the upcoming contract. Obviously depending on what that funding level is that will determine what the scope may be. Chair Furfaro: So you are making those arrangements with your Staff, the County Attorney? What is going on there in that negotiation? Mr. Hunt: I have Amy Esaki, Deputy County Attorney here as well who has been working on some of that documentation in draft form, but again we cannot execute a scope of work or contract until we know what the funding is, because that will determine what that scope may have to be. Chair Furfaro: Okay. Is Amy in the back? AMY ESAKI, First Deputy County Attorney: Yes, I am. Chair Furfaro: There you are. You are so petite, I did not see you. That is good, Amy. I just wanted to know that you were here in case we had questions. Would you give us a little overview of this, Steve?Yes? Mr. Hunt: It is one of the few contracts that the County has that is actually HRS mandated. It does provide the County some latitude in terms of the April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 3 particulars on the scope of work. But it is something that we have to provide funding for through HRS. Because of the meetings that we have had or the meeting that we had with the Humane Society, we are looking at seeing what might be able to fit within that scope of work. There are really two items that are in that contract about $595,000 of the $660,000 is for animal control and care, and the other is for the spay and neutering program. Chair Furfaro: In the HRS it only seems to reference dogs. Mr. Hunt: For spay and neutering, that is correct. Chair Furfaro: It does not address cats? Mr. Hunt: Right. I am not familiar with our current contract and I may have to have Amy discuss that but in HRS I believe you are correct, I believe it is just dogs. Chair Furfaro: I looked at that and I only saw dogs. May I ask Amy to come up? Ms. Cistaro: I can address the contract as well. Chair Furfaro: No, it is best we let our Attorney tell us what it addresses and then I will come back to you. Ms. Esaki: As far as the current contract that we have with the Humane Society, it does allow for spay and neutering of dogs and cats and I think that was a negotiated item of previous years and last year. We did exclude the feral cats due to the ESA laws. Chair Furfaro: Okay. So my quick interpretation of that paragraph I was correct, but the contract specifies both species? Ms. Esaki: Correct. And I think that is what the public wanted as well. Chair Furfaro: Okay. Questions for Amy? Or Steve? Mr. Rapozo: I have a question for Steve? Chair Furfaro: Go right ahead? Mr. Rapozo: Steve, I know you are saying that you are going to develop the scope of work after the funding. But I think we develop the scope of work first and determine what that would cost and that should be submitted to us. We do not even have a budget attached to this request, which I have never seen. Every Department comes up with a budget. So I do not have a budget. But should we not determine the scope first and then determine...and the Chair is right. The HRS is very clear that the mandate is April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 4 really only for dogs. And the contract...I have a copy of the contract, there is that added benefit or duty in the contract, but as far as we determined the scope of work, would it not make sense to determine or have the scope of work mirror the State Law? Mr. Hunt: I would agree with you, and to some degree we have done that in past. But the realities are that the scope of work and the funding that we have provided for that scope of work do not mirror one another. It is insufficient. So we are in the process now of exploring what can be done for that level of service or whether we want to dictate what the level of service is first and then have them come back with a price for that service. But typically what has happened the funding is approved and then the contract is executed. Mr. Rapozo: I think it is backwards. I think we develop the scope, and then we let us know how much you need. That would be...I do not understand how else you can do it? You know, I do not even know what right, I have asked even from Penny, right? Thank you for being here today. Prior to Penny being here I have asked for a specific breakdown of what was allocated, County versus non-County?And I have yet to see that. And this one I see a blanket 69% but I have not seen the detail and that troubles me. So I am not convinced that the $660,000 is not enough. But my bigger concern is I believe that we need to definitely scope out the mandate from the State, and at least get that figured. You know, every Department is coming up now and realizing cuts. We have got our own Police Department say if the budget passes as here, we are going come back for more money. It is not enough. So I think at this point, I think we need to scope out the work for what the State mandates. And then take it from there to determine. Mr. Hunt: I agree with you, given time, I think that would have been the appropriate approach, but I think both Penny and myself are new to the positions and did not have the luxury of having those discussions in advance. Mr. Rapozo: And we have, that is what is frustrating for me. I have tried. I have tried, and you know, I have sat here in a meeting and the prior Executive Director never showed up. It is frustrating, you know? The people are crying about raising taxes and all of that and we have the tough job of determining what the core services are. And in my opinion core services are what is mandated by the State during these tough financial times. Thank you. Chair Furfaro: First of all I want to make sure that I am reading this correct. This implies for the County programs that they need an additional $308,000? How am I reading this? This is so minimized so what we have seen in the past. I just want to make sure. What are we? Ms. Cistaro: The $308,000 that you are looking at is the amount that we have put into the contract through March 31st of this year. That is not the full twelve months. If we took that out to twelve months, it would be close to $400,000 that we would be paying into the contract to meet the level of services. So these are our actual costs for what we have done for the past nine months. April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 5 Chair Furfaro: Okay. JoAnn, you have the floor. Ms. Yukimura: Yes, thank you. Good morning. This is a new format for all of us, because we have not done it in this kind of process that you are describing. But obviously, I mean, because the Humane Society would just come in and tell us what they needed for the year in the past. And so I think we are co-creating a new process, it feels like it. And so I just wanted to look at the parameters that we are dealing with. This expenses incurred sheet that you have submitted, shows all of your costs with respect to...not all your services, just your...I am sorry you might have said it "sheltering and care for the animals?" Ms. Cistaro: Yes, these are the costs that the Humane Society is paying for the animals that we have responsibility for and the animals that the County has responsibility for. So 69% of the animals coming into the shelter are stray, homeless animals. The other percentage is owner-surrendered animals or wildlife coming in and we are covering the cost of those animals? Ms. Yukimura: So this CAM, which I think stands for "County Animal Management." In the second column is that 69% of the all-inclusive costs, right? Ms. Cistaro: Yes. Ms. Yukimura: Public spay and neuter program is the next column, which is considered in your mind and I think in ours, but we will see from the conversation spay and neuter of strays? Ms. Cistaro: No, that is the County's public policy. Ms. Yukimura: The public policy to encourage spay and neutering. Ms. Cistaro: That is the moneys that the County provided. Ms. Yukimura: It is a subsidized spay and neuter program? Ms. Cistaro: Yes, that the county pays for. Ms. Yukimura: So people who are not able to afford spay/neutering can come in on their own? People who cannot afford spay/neutering on their own can come in for a discounted cost? Ms. Cistaro: Yes. Ms. Yukimura: And "Humane Society" column, that is your last column, is what? Ms. Cistaro: That is the cost that we incur with owner-surrendered animals coming into the shelter, the adoption program that we are splitting with the April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 6 County, and then the costs that we incur by doing business with the animals coming into the shelter. This does not include the humane education program, our volunteer coordinator, any of the staffing that does not have an impact on the County programs. Ms. Yukimura: Okay. Thank you for that explanation. And then on the next sheet you have...oh, that is a breakdown of the County Animal Management Program. Is that the next sheet? Ms. Cistaro: That is a breakdown of the payroll costs for the staff to perform the functions of the contract. Ms. Yukimura: Okay. So in terms of costing out what is County responsibility versus non-County responsibility, you have arrived at a percentage based on number of animals in either category? Ms. Cistaro: Yes. Ms. Yukimura: Okay. Ms. Cistaro: And in certain categories, building and grounds, for example, utilities, overhead,we did it at a 50/50 split rather than 69%. Ms. Yukimura: There was some issue about cats versus dogs or dogs versus non-dogs, something like that. So what is the breakdown in responsibility of the County? Ms. Cistaro: In our County contract, there is a clause about us handling small animals, and so that is where we are handling the cats, as well as small animals? Ms. Yukimura: Okay? Ms. Cistaro: And that is primarily cats and actually cats is a greater number than dogs. Dogs take up 46% of the animals coming in, versus cats. Ms. Yukimura: Okay. And 46%. So then the other policy question and I do not know maybe all of you can answer is what is the public policy or the public safety and health issue with respect to cats? I mean, why should the County...? Chair Furfaro: Excuse me, can we just focus on understanding the financials first JoAnn and I will tell you this, because the same question will apply that I would like to have and I ask that every year is what is the public concern about wild chickens and I would just like to understand the financials first. Because what I hear so far and if I am interpreting this right, Steve, there is an agreement somewhere that says common area utilities are split 50/50. There is another condition that talks about the operational costs is basically that the County incurs 69% of the operational costs and basically, we do not have a budget here. We have a projection that says for nine April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 7 months, and I have not seen the financials, they are going to be short $308,000 based on this 69% allocation. I am not sure where we are getting that information and you do not need to answer me now, because I do not want to be cutting in line. Mr. Hooser is next and I do not want to jump into conditions about animals until we first understand the financial picture. Ms. Yukimura: Mr. Chair, if I could just finish? Chair Furfaro: I will give you the floor back, but I am asking you for a courtesy, can we keep the questions to the financials? Ms. Yukimura: I feel like I am talking about the financials, because the cats are covered in these costs, right? So I do not have many more questions, if I could just... Chair Furfaro: I just want to say to you that if we are going to get into detail about the specific animals and we do not understand what you presented to us in the financials, we are not going to get to the right understanding of what the needs are. Ms. Yukimura: Well... Chair Furfaro: Excuse me, JoAnn you have a projection that says you are $308,000 short for nine months. I want to understand how you put this together as you have not presented us a budget, Steve, and that is what is here. It is also along the lines of what Mr. Rapozo is saying is, should we not be negotiating what we cover first? Ms. Yukimura: Mr. Chair, I am sure those things will come up in questions. Chair Furfaro: I am sure I am not going to convince you of what I need, so I am going to step out. Mr. Rapozo, run the meeting. And then Mr. Hooser has the floor. Ms. Yukimura: Thank you. So I guess because I believe that public policy determines budget, I am asking this policy question about how the cats come under it the rubric of"public health and safety?" Ms. Esaki: I think in the past and I do not have the total recollection, but in the past I think the public would come to the Council and ask that the cats also be covered. If there are some minutes in the Council records that indicate that the public was looking at having the cats spayed as well. Ms. Yukimura: Okay. Maybe you can explain what is done with the dogs in terms of the service, because I am going to assume that is what is done with the cats and that might give me a clearer idea of what we're funding presently. What is being asked to be funded also in the future? April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 8 Ms. Cistaro: Cats are handled very similarly to dogs. And they present as large if not a greater problem in the community than dogs. They are a health issue. They do cause damage to both property and humans, they are...they do create a traffic hazard, cats get hit by cars, sick, injured, and we respond to calls to pick them up. They are victims of cruelty in the same fashion that a dog is. So with the community's perception of cats they are also household animals as well as companion animals and again cats are typically a greater cost to an animal control program than dogs are, but they are handled in the same fashion. Ms. Yukimura: So thank you. How are cats hazardous to health? How do they interface with the health issue? Ms. Cistaro: They can bite. They can carry disease. They can cause toxoplasmosis and they carry parasites. Mr. Hunt: Just to be clear on the contract itself the spay/neuter only covers household pets and not feral. So we are not taking about spay/neuter of feral dogs or cats, but household pets. Ms. Yukimura: But it does hopefully prevent feral cats because if you do not spay/neuter the household cats you have the problem of overpopulation that spills over into feral often, right? Ms. Cistaro: Yes. Ms. Yukimura: Owners have been known to take the spare or extra cats to a park and let them loose, right? Ms. Cistaro: Yes. There are two different pieces in the contract. One is the spaying and neutering component for household dogs and cats and then the other component of the contract is the piece that speaks to small animals and that is where cats are covered under the contract. Ms. Yukimura: They are covered in the contract...dogs. Let us talk about dogs. Basically this program called County Animal Management, which is the column that adds up to what is presumably County responsibility. This column applies...so what is a typical service? There is a stray dog and people call you about it and your Humane Officers go pick them up, bring them in, and they are treated/held and some are them are put to sleep. Ms. Cistaro: Yes. They either...the Officers either pick them up in the field or the public brings in stray animals that are a nuisance to them or they found somewhere, or showed up on their property. Ms. Yukimura: So that happens to both dogs and cats? Ms. Cistaro: Yes. 4 April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 9 Ms. Yukimura: Thank you. Mr. Hooser: Thank you, for the record I love animals and I love the Humane Society. I have a cat and dog and two chickens and like all of us, we value the service that you bring to our community. But like all of us, we are concerned about the budget, management of the funds on many levels, many Departments, and the fact we are in a situation being asked to raise taxes to pay these costs. Given that is the underlying motivation for myself anyways. There was some talk about process earlier, and it seems like we are making it up on the fly here. Even though the discussion is helpful for a little bit, I think for me it would be more helpful if the Humane Society and the Administration, who is charged with managing contracts and managing working with Departments, if you folks would get together, work it all out, and present the Council with a budget and present it and justify it and give us all the rationale you need for that. That would be helpful to me. Correct me if I am wrong,we do not have that.Is that correct? Ms. Cistaro: That is correct. And I requested that because for us to present a budget, we cannot present a budget back that will be a deficit budget to the organization. So we have requested the opportunity to sit down and negotiate a contract and part of negotiating the contract is in negotiating the scope of service. For me to be able to present something to Council I have to have feedback from the County telling us exactly what services you will cover and what services you will not cover, so then I can develop a budget that meets what you are asking for, or to be able to say, we cannot do that scope of service for that amount of money. I am coming in new to this. I have been with the organization for a month. I am trying to learn not only our budget, but what the County is requesting. So I have requested the opportunity to sit down and negotiate a contract so that I can formulate a cost to that contract. But I cannot move forward until I get information and feedback for what those scope of services will be. Mr. Hooser: Okay. Chair Furfaro: I'm going to ask Mr. Hooser for a second, can I interrupt on something? Mr. Hooser: Sure, go ahead. Chair Furfaro: I just want to make sure, so would the question that Mr. Hooser posed rather than getting into specifics, should we not be asking to reschedule you, because I have never seen your request. Your request went to the Mayor's Office? Mr.Hunt: No, just myself and Ernie Barreira met with the Humane Society about a month ago. Chair Furfaro: It kind of sounds like to me, you did not present a budget, and I have a pretty sound financial background, and the reason you did not present it is because you see some glaring issues about what the scope of the budget should be covering. April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 10 Mr. Hooser: Chair, my questions were following along your lines and if I could continue, that could be great. Chair Furfaro: You can actually have the floor and now I know we are talking along the same lines. Mr. Hooser: Director, will you be asking for to us defer this issue to allow you to meet with the Humane Society and I believe what is being said, when the County...meaning the Administration to start with and the Humane Society and the Mayor's Office and the Administration will come up with a unified proposal and bring it back to the Council and then you will justify that and make that request at that time? Is that what you are asking? I do not want to put words in your mouth. Mr. Hunt: I guess my concern is first what we are operating with is a variable cost. It is open-ended, right now we are getting information that if we budget for 4,000 animals, but they service 5,000 animals on behalf of the County, and we only budgeted for 4,000 under their proposal, we are sort of working off a budget that is open- ended. I think in the past this has almost been treated more like a grant and here are the funds and work within it and the scope of work that is in the contract is kind of cover all. I am a little concerned if we prepare a budget and the budget is not actual and there are more animals or population outbreak or something that we are then saying on the contract we are responsible for, when it comes to budget, you have only given a finite amount of money for that function. Mr. Hooser: Right. I appreciate the complexity of all the moving parts. I would say though that it is a lot more efficient and I think appropriate for all of those questions to be addressed at the Administration rather than across this table at this time. and so whatever you could conclude is the right way do it, I would say have those discussions and figure it out, figure it out as best as you can, which is my perspective on it and I do not speak for the Council, and then come back and present whatever conclusions you come to, rather than try to figure out here, which is not really a very productive use of the time, I believe. It is a good conversation to have for background, but to get down to the nitty gritty, it is not going to happen, I do not think here. Mr. Hunt: Another thing that is a little bit interesting to me too, this is a contract. A service contract. The County has various service contracts and no one else is being asked to present at the budget. They are not a Department. So even I am a little perplexed why this is on the floor other than it is an HRS mandate and we are supposed to be working on a contract that would eventually be approved. It is not one of my Departments, but a line item of Professional Services within the Administration's budget. Mr. Hooser: I get that and thank you for bringing that up actually, and I also believe if I remember correctly there are times when contract providers come and they may sit in the audience while you do a presentation and they may or may not come forward to address issues. It comes down to the budget and you are the budget guy and I April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 11 am looking for direction from you that you are comfortable with the budget to fulfill this contract. I think it would be much better use of everybody's time. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Mr. Rapozo: Councilmember Nakamura? Ms. Nakamura: Just to follow-up, I would agree with Councilmember Hooser. I think there is some work that is going to be involved, too. But I really appreciate your approach, Penny. I think that if you are operating at a deficit, then we really need to evaluate the level of service and expectations of the County. And we need to be aware of what those trade-offs are going to be when we make that final budget decision. So I really thank you for... I think this is my third budget, but it is the first time I am actually hearing...and I know it has been brought up before, but in terms of sitting down and working out those trade-offs, we have not had those discussions before. So Steve, lucky you. What I think and what I would like to see at some point, this is the State Law. This is what is mandated. This is what we would like to have in our scope of work and this may... this part may be just to execute State Law and this may be beyond State Law, but what we find is necessary because things have changed or would be an added benefit to this community and then we need to decide based on the budget whether those extras are feasible under this budget? And then to break it down, labor and expenses for each service, so that we can make those trade-offs. And I really appreciate that approach. Mr. Rapozo: Mr. Chair? Chair Furfaro: So first of all, thank you Mr. Hooser for summarizing the approach that I wanted to talk about first. And I think he did a very good job at that. But I also want to add a couple of things. You people are in front of the Council and this is my twelfth budget, okay? Because of the amount of money involved, and the great, great appreciation the citizens of Kaua`i have about animals, and the Humane Society. So that is why you are here in a little different way than maybe some other allocation of money. In my understanding that if we were to give you a new date Steve, let us say, the afternoon of the 19th. 2:30 p.m. You would have the time to work out with the Humane Society some of the minimum requirements covered in our contract? And also, would we have an opportunity also then to see more than the nine months projected loss and show something of their ability to raise funds to cover the operating costs. Would we be there by the 23rd? Mr. Hunt: I cannot speak as to their ability to raise funds. I mean I could only speak to whether we can look at entering into a contract within that period of time and redefining the scope of work. Now clearly I would love some input as to what that amount would be. Because if, in fact, that the current level of service needs to be $1 million to cover their operational loss specifically to County services, then that affects my budget on the revenue side and I need to find revenues. If we have a cap that says you need to customize your services to meet the $660,000 or another amount that will give me direction. I am concerned because this is open-ended and the 69% is nowhere in the contract, the fifty percent sharing it is just how it is working out based on their actual operations. Chair Furfaro: I understand it is a trend and not a contracted amount? April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 12 Mr. Hunt: Correct. Chair Furfaro: What I am asking you and I would like to hear from you as well, Penny, would giving you that time allow us to have a better discussion and maybe a budget in front of us, rather than nine months actual either one of you? Mr. Hunt: The budget would be derived from them because I do not have access to their actuals and projected. Ms. Cistaro: If we can sit down and discuss and negotiate, we could come to some agreement by that date. I do want to point out that the first nine months is an actual. And that we have lost $308,000 on this contract. And so we need to come to some type of agreement based on what the County can fund. We need to raise funds for our own operating programs. We cannot raise funds to subsidize the County. gp .g Y Chair Furfaro: I understand. There are programs that the County subsidizes, but it is also possibly based on your picture financially and your ability to raise money and what I want to also say to you, you agreed with us last year and you have come up with a $308,000 loss. That was agreed. Maybe also we can find some way to kokua, help, but we have to understand what we can do going forward before we can go back and say we need kokua here. We need to understand that. And I am just asking and maybe this meeting is premature, because it has not been hammered out with the Administration and rescheduling will give you time. I am going to recognize everybody. You can hear from the Council of the kinds of things that we would like to see you negotiate with the administration. Does that sound reasonable? Ms. Cistaro: That sounds very reasonable and that was my initial request, because I knew I would not be able to bring a budget into Council today without direction and guidance from the Council or from the Administration. Chair Furfaro: I want to make sure that I am not here promoting a grant for $308,000 to make up the deficit. I am saying we would like to understand how we can help, and then be very clear on what we can deliver based on a mutual agreement. Ms. Cistaro: Yes. Chair Furfaro: Mr. Bynum...I am sorry, Mel, you still have the floor. Mr. Rapozo: That is fine. Mr. Bynum: Penny, congratulations on being the Humane Society Director. Ms. Cistaro: Thank you. April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 13 Mr. Bynum: Pleasure to meet you. Ii think Steve said the key thing here...this has been treated almost like a grant. Here, here is the money and thanks a lot. But the structure you have given in this letter and I am speaking as someone who worked a lot with non-profits and was a non-profit Executive Director, it is very common to have that kind of formula, where positions are funded by multiple sources, and there is some kind of decision about how to do that. What I have heard from the Humane Society over the last few years is coming and saying how difficult it is to maintain the current level of services when the funding stays the same. And the Humane Society is saying hey, our fundraising is subsidizing these County programs. This year you are giving evidence to that, or rationale. I believed that to be true all along, given the amount of money that the County has given the Humane Society and the dynamic 24/7 services that the Society...you can just look at that and say in this day and age, is that really enough money? But it needs to be, in my opinion, broken down, like you are suggesting in a contract that is very clear and specific about cost divisions and in my experience, non-profits you do that position by position. "X" amount of the Executive Director's salary maybe it's 20% or 30%, and that is part of the contract negotiation, right? And I think neglectful that the County has not done that prior to this and expected that to happen. Did you want to say something, Amy? Ms. Esaki: Yes. Councilmember Bynum, in the contract we do state that this is a grant and it is referencing Article 3, Chapter 6 and this language has been in the Humane Society contract for many, many years, going back to... Mr. Bynum: I understand that. And so Steve is correct. It is just a grant and there has not been this kind of specific, okay, what is the County funding? You know, but the Humane Society has been asked to document that in the past. They have said hey, we have said Humane Society said it costs us a lot more to provide the service than you are giving us and the Council says well show us the books and show us the numbers, but we never negotiated a contract in that form, right? Have I got this right? This year, I hear that the Humane Society is coming and saying look, we cannot just go on this, because your costs increased. The amount that comes from the County stays basically the same. It is like, hey, we have to get more formula for the arrangement that is what you are saying right, Penny? That just makes sense. If we are not...anyway I think that I believe what the Humane Society said, because I know what a dynamic organization and the passion behind that organization. Perhaps other organizations would not have let it go this many years being behind. There is probably not a more passionate group of people and supporters than the Humane Society and they just make it work, made it happen and then focused on the mission. I believe that they can, any analysis will determine that we have not fully funded the operations that they provide for us. Now if we cannot do that, we have tough choices. But apparently there is a minimum level of services that we are required to fund. If the services are above and beyond that and we choose not to fund it, the Humane Society cannot offer it is what I am hearing from their Director now. We cannot continue with this kind of deficit. And so if we go back to bare minimum services than we have to deal with the fact to the community that we are not providing the left level of service that we had before, right? So I agree with the comment of my colleagues today, if we want to keep leaving it as a grant. The Humane Society is saying that at this number it does not work anymore. So we need to treat it differently this year and it is time to do that. April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 14 Mr. Hunt: I think if we were to revise the scope of work that would be workable, the way we would have to do that is basically have an analysis broken down for services. So much for spay or neuter a dog or cat. Therefore, you are allowed an allowance of so many dogs or so many cats under this fiscal year. So much to pick up animals. Because right now it is open-ended and they have a variable cost and if they exceed the budget they are upside down. In a good year if they do not exceed it, they are in a surplus. We are essentially providing a grant and we need to sort of match the amount to what their actual services are and we can specify that either at a hard dollar amount or treat it as a grant and just have them live within that. Mr. Bynum: Cannot the contracted say, I mean rather than set target limits of numbers of services, say that the County contract will fund these many positions at this percentage of cost and provide a service and then we do an analysis at the end of the year and if the number exceeded that, I mean does it have to be targeted to "X" amount of dollars for each dog pickup? Mr. Hunt: If the budget process were open ended and gave me a range of amount that I could provide them, we would not have to, but you are giving me a dollar amount every year to award this grant, if you will, to the Humane Society and obviously it is variable costs. The more animals that they take care of, the more they are upside down and the less, the more they are in the black. I do not think it is possible to manage that if you are given a fixed dollar. Yes, the salaries can be fixed and some of the positions, but the actual number of animals, food, care, and shelter of animals while they are there, there is no control over the numbers. Mr. Bynum: You have a sense of the numbers. If you negotiate with the County and say this is the amount of staff we need to maintain current needs, I think tying it and this is just from experience, tying it to those numbers that fluctuate gets problematic for both sides, right? It is more like we provided "X" amount for this number of positions and at the end of the year, we were able to meet the need or really pressed because the numbers have exceeded? Mr. Hunt: I think what we do have control over in the scope, maybe say there is no service on Saturday/Sunday or maybe it is a five day a week and there are some things you can control in terms of costs, but other things are variable in terms of services. Mr. Bynum: I do not remember the details, but a few years ago the Executive Director said if some of these things do not get funded,we will stop picking up dogs and it will be up to your Police Department. So that is a little bit of hard ball from their side, but that is the right thing to do if you are sitting in the Executive Director's chair and you have the responsibility to your Board and funders. Anyway, I hope it work out and it is good we have a more formal look at what we are buying because I think it is absolutely true that the Humane Society has been subsidizing the County's responsibilities for some time. And I hear them saying that we cannot continue do to do that and if I were a shareholder, I would say you bet. Mr. Rapozo: Any more questions? Mr. Hooser? April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 15 Mr. Hooser: My question is to the Director. Just to restate so that I understand, the intention is for to your Office to meet with the Humane Society and look at their number and proposal and give it some good thought and come up with some kind of unified presentation that the Administration supports? Mr. Hunt: At this point we submit a balanced budget. And that balanced budget was based on a grant of$660,000. If we are going to alter that, that will be reflected in the May 8th budget submittal and we may have to find additional revenues if in fact we want to maintain the level of service that they are providing. Given where we are constraint, if I am going negotiate toward a contract of services it has to fall with what we submitted in the balanced budget. So if you are asking me to come back and present on the 19th, I am either going to be out of balance with the budget at that point if we have a contract that differs from what I submit or we are going to have to craft something that falls within that $660,000 budgeted line item that is currently there? Mr. Hooser: Okay. I would suggest that if possible the Administration could look at the needs. There was some discussion earlier about policy and the ultimate policy document is the budget. And if the policy is chosen to fund any operation, therefore, we are deciding what level of service to provide basically. So that is why I am looking for the Administration to tell us what level of service that they want to support providing. If it exceeds the existing budget, then we would either the Administration could suggest reallocation of resources, or if they want to raise more taxes we can suggest that or the Council can do that, I suppose. But it is a policy statement at the end of the day, how much we want to support animal care? It is HRS and we are required by law and the law says that the public government is responsible for this. That policy has already been established. So our question is what level of support we want to give? If you could look and there is a lot of factors as you know, not just how the contract works, but is the organization being properly run? Is the money being spent prudently and you are in the position of deciding that and I expect it to be that the answer is yes, but if those questions are addressed and money is being spent prudently and it is either it is sufficient or not sufficient to meet minimum needs and if minimum needs are, in fact, what we are seeking or we are seeking greater than minimum needs because we want to provide greater support. So that statement from the Administration Would be very helpful as a starting point for us to move forward. Mr. Hunt: That kind of opens the door to a lot more issues than I anticipated for a resubmittal on the 19th and now we are talking policy...which that is...I am the Finance end, not the policy end, so I have to look into that. If you are talking about auditing the financials of the Humane Society, that is going to take some time and understanding their operations. So you have kind of expanded that scope a little bit of what I was thinking for the 19th. Mr. Hooser: Two things quickly, Chair and I will be done. Number one I am not looking at auditing, but a level of comfort that would come from the Finance Director, looking at the proposals from the Humane Society. As you would any grant request or recipient or contract. Am I correct? April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 16 Mr. Hunt: I would think so. Mr. Hooser: If we are going to give any organization money, it would be through your responsibilities, your authority and we would look at the books to a certain level. I am not saying audit. I am just saying level of comfort and I would argue that the budget is a policy document. It determines what we spend on buses and highways and every single element of our public responsibility. I am not asking you to set policy, but I am reinforcing the fact that budget is a policy document and the degree of support we give any organization is a reflection of the policy that the County is putting forward. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Rapozo: Mr. Chair? Chair Furfaro: If you could continue to Chair this, I have a 10:00 with the County Attorney. I just want to summarize a couple of things for the Vice Chair while I am out. First of all, I am willing to reschedule you folks at 2:30 on the 19th. I know that is eight days from now, but I am going to block that window for you. Number two William, right? Mr. Earnshaw: Yes, sir. Chair Furfaro: So let me ask you on this reforecast here for the current year, if that trend continues, you are basically saying the Humane Society will be short $410,000 by year-end? Mr. Earnshaw: Correct, sir. Chair Furfaro: And I would hope Steve that you understand, I am not saying that is something that we can cover, but that may be something that we can participate in. No promises, but it is something that we can participate in. Do not know where that will go, but when we come back, I want to ask...you do an audit annually? Ms. Cistaro: Yes. Chair Furfaro: If you could just provide us a copy with your most recent audit. That would be appreciated as well. And then let me offer a little bit of a comment on my behavior. I am sorry and I apologize to Councilmember Yukimura and your group about stepping out, but I did not want to talk about cats. I wanted to talk about dollars. And I do not want anybody to hold that against me, because I am a very proud owner of a German Shepherd, I do not own a cat. The fact that you presented not a complete budget, but a scenario that says you folks are in trouble and need help not only going forward, but in arrears as well. I would like to say that we will look at that $410,000, but I think we need to regroup with the Administration and I think both Mel's original request about doing the project concerns up front and Mr. Hooser's summary, puts me at a good place that I am prepared to come back on the 19th at 2:30. Thank you very much, Mel. April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 17 Mr. Rapozo: Thank you. Any more questions? I guess Steve, for me, it makes sense to start with the State mandate. That is where it should start. That is the scope of work and it is very clear.What is that scope? What does it cost? What is the per dog cost? To pick up a stray dog or unlicensed dog? And like now you guys do not operate 24/7 unless it is an injured dog? Ms. Cistaro: We operate...we are available 24/7. Mr. Rapozo: But they do not come out unless the dog is injured? Ms. Cistaro: The after-hours is for sick injured animals in distress and agency assist. Mr. Rapozo: Agency assist, meaning? Ms. Cistaro: Police Officers stop someone for drunk driving and there is a dog in car. There is an arrest of some sort, there is a house fire, there is an emergency with a person and there are dogs or other animals and we are asked to come and remove the animals and house them. That is part of what we do. Mr. Rapozo: Last week I called, and I work at hotel part-time and I called very nice lady, I forget her name and basically what happened, the guest in the hotel left the dog unattended in the carrier no food, no water, did not answer her cell phone and so I called KPD, they said you have to call the Humane Society, so I called. They said they do not come out unless the dogs are injured. It is somebody's pets and I will be honest, we have received a lot of complaints, I have anyway in the last six to eight months regarding and I have one that I will actually give this one to you, because this was actually sent in. About the lack of response, and I met with Kaua`i Police Department because there is a memorandum that KPD and the Humane Society came back in 2010 where the Humane Society responds to those type of calls and not KPD and I am not sure if you are aware of that memorandum? Ms. Cistaro: I have the memorandum. Mr. Rapozo: So my concern is what is level of service Monday through Friday and when I heard no service Saturday and Sunday that concerns me because I do not think we have an option because of the State mandate. So I just wanted to share that as well that...and I am not sure if the rest are hearing them but I am. I have never met you Penny but I have had some discussions with the previous Directors and it was not pleasant. I guess she did not like me. My job here is to make sure that the taxpayers' moneys are used efficiently and we provide the core services. I have not seen any supporting documentation with numbers like we normally do, Steve. We always get the numbers and the increase. I was looking at the prior's years and obviously the deficit has increased quite a bit, close to $100,000, what caused that in numbers? More dogs? More cats? I am not sure where that lies. So Steve, I guess for me I think we need to start with the mandated service for the scope as far as the County is concerned. The other part of it is these other services that are being provided spay, neuter, animal care, everything outside of the 143-15 April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 18 of the HRS, and Amy this question is for you, 143-15 allows the Counties to contract with the Humane Society or an animal protection agency and it is actually specific to dogs, but 143-16 mandates the County of Kaua`i to contract with the Kauai Humane Society. Ms. Esaki: That is correct. Mr. Rapozo: I am not sure what the legality of that is Amy. How can the State Law mandate? I am not sure, but the question is outside of the scope of this State Law, is there not a process that you would, like spay/neuter would that not go out to bid? How did we get the spay/neuter program into a contract in a non-competitive...? Ms. Esaki: That is a good question. Mr. Rapozo: I asked it before and nobody seems to answer and I am like Gary, believe me, I love animals, I have a dog and love dogs and really appreciate what the Humane Society does. But in contrast, the Family Violence Shelters for humans, we funded it this year, $115,000, $65,000 for the Family Violence Shelter and $50,000 for the Sexual Assault Treatment Program and this year's budget from the Mayor, it has dropped combined to $40,000. $40,000 to operate a Family Violence Shelter and to do a Sexual Assault Treatment Program. From $115,000 to $40,000. Does the $115,000 cover the Family Violence Shelter? No. My point is this, this County has to focus on the mandate. What is the cost to impound unlicensed dogs, maintenance of the shelter for unlicensed dogs? Lost stray or homeless dogs and for destruction or other disposition of seized dogs. What does that cost is what I want to know? That is the question I have been asking for quite some time. What does that cost? Not the cats, not the rabbits or whatever else out there, the dogs? That is where we start. At that point you frame a scope of work and negotiate with the Humane Society, what is that number? It might be $660,000, I do not know and if you want to add stuff then it becomes a policy issue. But at this point it is not policy, it is required. I do not know the negotiation. This is what we need. We need 143- 15, we need that covered. How much does it cost including all the expenses to pick up a dog? What does it cost including all of these expenses that are required to pick up a dog during working hours? What does it cost to pick up a dog after hours? And if it is $660,000, the County might have to change the Law and might be cheaper for the taxpayer to go back to the dog pound system. Because at $660,000, I am trying to do the math in my head, how much would it cost to run a dog pound and that is all I am talking about is running a dog pound, because that is all that is required. At that point really what does it cost to operate based on the numbers of dog to be picked up? So those are the questions that I ask of you Steve. Mr. Hunt: I do not know that answer? Mr. Rapozo: Moving forward, because there comes a point we have to say what is in the best interest of the animals for the taxpayers?And it is concerning. And it is a lot of money and I know it is not cheap to take care of animals, but everybody is taking a hit in this County. We are not going to able to provide core services in the Police Department right now. You heard the Chief based on the budget that they submitted, they are going to be cutting services as well. So unlike any other Department or Division, this April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 19 one is required by State Law, which is incredible. I still do not know how that happened that Kaua`i was separated. Maybe JoAnn knows it was that long ago. I do not know. I did not call you old. You are experienced. There was a reason why that was done. Ms. Esaki: I think before, Councilmember Yukimura's time, 1953 and 1955. Mr. Rapozo: She was Councilwoman at the time. Anyway, Steve, I do not want my comments to be taken as anti-Humane Society. I want my comments to be taken as Councilperson, overseer of the budget because that is exactly what our job is. Right now, I would write a check for $900,000, $1 million to get it done, because it is so much easier for the County to do it that way. But it is hard to tell the YWCA, we are going to cut your budget by $60,000 or $70,000 off a $115,000 budget that is a huge percent and it is difficult for me. We have to figure out a way to get this done in the most effective and efficient way possible. I do not know how much time that gives you until the next meeting, but we need to figure it out. and again, for the Humane Society, I really would appreciate the numbers. I guess you can use the format that you use every quarter? Ms. Cistaro: I am not familiar. Mr. Rapozo: The contract requires quarterly reports to you Steve. Mr. Hunt: I have not seen one yet. Mr. Rapozo: Do you know where it went? Do you know where you provided it because he said he has not received it? Mr. Hunt: They may not have done one since then. Mr. Earnshaw: I hand deliver those reports by the due date to the Finance Director's Office. Mr. Rapozo: When was the last one? Maybe it was before Steve started? Mr. Earnshaw: End of the last quarter, December, which meant it was due February 15th. So I delivered it to the office on February 15th. Mr. Rapozo: Steve, if you could follow-up with that, to look at the numbers. Mr. Bynum? Mr. Bynum: I do not know how this can happen by the 18th or 15th, because you made good points, Steve. But I agree with Councilmember Rapozo in terms that you would start with the core services. And then what are the current level of services, negotiate with the Humane Society what that cost is, and I would hope that there would be options. You would make a recommendation. This is what we can fund for the current amount, but then be real clear about what we are going to lose. Because I would really like to maintain the current level of services. Of course I would like do that with all of the April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 20 County's services. This clearly has to be more formalized than it has been in the past to understand those things. But I think that you are getting those negotiations and there will be a range of options here is what core services cost? Here is what it will cost to fund the current services, whatever the Humane Society is willing to do? And then okay, we do not have that money. What will we lose and be really clear with the public what services we are not going to do, right? But I would hope...and my guess is that the Humane Society cannot subsidize every penny like they have, but they still probably would be willing to put some of their resources into maintaining a level of service. But that is what negotiation is all about, right? Just because the contrast has been made, I cannot live with those cuts at the YWCA. Having said that the circumstances are different. This is clearly a County responsibility. Where the State primarily, the domestic violence and sexual assault treatments is critical to keep a certain level of services and if the State does not fulfill that, it is does make a difference because this is;.a State responsibility that the County is bolstering because we are not pleased with the level of services that the State is willing to provide. It does not provide enough for our community and that may be the same circumstance with the Humane Society. This is what we are required to fund but that is not sufficient for our community. We want a higher level of services and if we do, it is fair for the Humane Society to expect us to pay for that. These are tough decisions we are going to have to make. If I were the Humane Society Director, I would be taking this position and saying, okay enough with this informal stuff and we have shown you from our perspective how much we have to subsidize this current level of services. I hope this works out really well and we can maintain current services. Ms. Nakamura: I just wanted to bring out last year when we looked at the spay/neuter services we were kicking around the idea of the Kaua`i Humane Society charging a fee, but under the current contract it would impact the grant if you raised funds and it would impact the grant amount and we would have to deduct. So I just wanted to, moving forward, Steve, I wanted you to be aware of this April 17th County Attorney Opinion that I hope...Amy wrote it, so hopefully she can share it with you to look at other creative ways to fund these important services. So there are some limitations under the current contract and we may need to look at amending it to provide some flexibility. Mr. Rapozo: Because Amy cannot provide that copy to you, you are going to have to ask her. It can be verbally. It takes an act of congress to release it and it is so much easier for you to have that discussion with Amy. Councilmember Yukimura? Ms. Yukimura: Council Vice Chair's point has raised for me just the question about how the spay/neuter services are rendered. I have forgotten. Can you refresh to me how you do it with respect if you could charge for fees, you would...or maybe Council Vice Chair is leaving, but I guess I am not really clear what the issue is on that? Mr. Rapozo: Without going into the Opinion, the question was can the Humane Society charge fees for the spay/neuter program,but the way the contract was written, anything over and above what they raise for the spay/neuter program, any extra money would have to be returned back? Ms. Yukimura: To the County? April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 21 Mr. Rapozo: To the County. Just for the spay/neuter program. So that was the issue. Ms. Yukimura: By the terms of the contract? Mr. Rapozo: Yes. But that was the issue that triggered the request for an Attorney's opinion and that is what she was talking about and obviously we are not allowed to release that. Anyway, that was that issue. That is what Councilmember Nakamura is saying, Steve, or asking, that explore that and see if the Humane Society can, in fact, charge a surcharge, a fee and that is fine. Whatever it takes to continue that program would definitely be appreciated. It is really just an issue with the contract. Amy, do you recall? I actually forget about that thing she added here, but that is something that you can discuss as far as if it is possible. I do not think that the Humane Society would have a problem with being allowed to charge a little service charge, administrative charge, providing that you could keep that? Ms. Cistaro: There can be a co-pay on surgery. Mr. Rapozo: Correct. Ms. Cistaro: And we can set a cost to each surgery, so a male costs "X" amount and to offset the costs to make the grant monies go further. Mr. Rapozo: Exactly. Ms. Cistaro: So we would just put that back into the grant and continue to use the monies for spay/neuter surgeries. Mr. Rapozo: I guess the question is if it is possible, that we incorporate that in or legal, I guess is the right word, because everything is possible. Go ahead. Ms. Yukimura: So what you said, Penny, you are not doing right now? Ms. Cistaro: No. We are not. We are providing a free surgery with a co-pay or a payment on the microchip. But they are receiving the surgery for free. Ms. Yukimura: No matter what the income of the person bringing in the dog? Ms. Cistaro: Correct. Ms. Yukimura: So it is conceivable that a more cost-effective program would require co-pay on the surgery. April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 22 Ms. Cistaro: A co-pay on the surgery, or an income-level that looking at... Ms. Yukimura: According to income of the family. Ms. Cistaro: The income of the family and then how many dependents are supported by that income. So that you can target your moneys at the population most in need. And you can ask for a small co-pay on each surgery dependent again on the level of income from that person. You do those types of programs to extend your funds. Ms. Yukimura: Right. So the Humane Society would be willing to look at that type of way to expand the funds? Ms. Cistaro: And actually, that is a more effective way of running a spay/neuter program. Ms. Yukimura: So then the only q uestion is whether the contract terms prevent that? To me that is not the question because you can determine the contract terms p q Y in the new contract, except if those contract terms that are now limiting are mandated by Charter or some kind of...some kind of higher law. Mr. Rapozo: Councilmember Yukimura, that is the opinion that they already provided and they are going to work on that and I apologize for cutting in and it is 10:30 and they are here until 10:30 and they are coming back. Go ahead. Ms. Cistaro: One of the questions or recommendations that were in the letter that I presented to Council was the recommendation to charge a fee for service for people that are using the Animal Management Program. And I was hoping for some feedback from Council as to whether that would be an avenue for us to pursue? Mr. Rapozo: That question will be forwarded over to the County Attorney's. Ms. Yukimura: It is a question for us. Ms. Cistaro: It would be an Ordinance change, because through State Law Council has the opportunity to change the fees or implement fees. Mr. Rapozo: Okay. Ms. Cistaro: Is that something that Council would entertain? Mr. Rapozo: Definitely. Ms. Cistaro: Thank you. April 11, 2013 Kaua`i Humane Society (ss) Page 23 Mr. Rapozo: Mr. Hooser? Mr. Hooser: I know we are running short of time, but I wanted to reinforce, you are coming back with a proposal. I think it is safe to assume that there will be more money being requested, but it is also safe to assume it will not be enough. So what I would like to see what you come back is addressing, moving forward, how the Humane Society intends to fill the gaps? What actions/fundraising, fees for services, any list of actions that you are going to be proposing. And also I would like to hear why you will not be in this situation again next year. How there will be additional oversight from your Board, on the financial management of the Humane Society? So similar to the County, quite frankly, here we are at the end of the day and we have got the sky falling and we have got to find all of this money to stay alive. So that is the situation that the Humane Society seems to be in. And so just some reassurances how the lessons that the organization has learned and steps that you are talking to make sure that the funds are handled so we do not reach the end of a time period like this and have to resort to these kinds of measures. So when you come back, to be prepared to for that also. Mr. Rapozo: Thank you very much, Penny. I hope we did not scare you away. We have an opportunity to have a great relationship and get services to the community and it is going to cost money, we know that, but it is what it is, you know? So I am not sure what date the Chair said? Ms. Cistaro: The 19th. Mr. Rapozo: The 19th at 2:30 p.m. The good thing about coming at 2:30 p.m., the Councilmembers are already tired. Exhausted. First in the morning is the rough one. Thank you very much. Let us take a ten minute caption break. I am sorry, public testimony, anyone from the public wishing to testify? I apologize. Okay. Let us take a ten minute break for a caption break and be back at 10:40 a.m. for Liquor Control. There being no objections, the Council recessed at 10:32 a.m.