HomeMy WebLinkAboutPublic Works (Roads Division) FY2013-2014 DEPARTMENTAL BUDGET CALL-BACKS 04-23-2013
Department of Public Works —Roads Division (aa)
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The departmental budget call-backs reconvened on April 23, 2013 at 9:08 a.m., and
proceeded as follows:
Department of Public Works—Roads Division
Honorable Gary L. Hooser
Honorable Ross Kagawa (present at 10:00 a.m.)
Honorable Nadine Nakamura
Honorable Mel Rapozo
Honorable JoAnn A. Yukimura
Honorable Jay Furfaro, Council Chair
Excused: Honorable Tim Bynum
Chair Furfaro: Aloha, good morning. I would like to call back
from recess, our ongoing budget items. Today, in particular in the morning, we are dealing
with the Department of Public Works, specifically the Roads Division, followed by Kaua`i
Humane Society in the afternoon, the Department of Finance on Collections and Merchant
Services, and ending the day on the Office of Economic Development. It is the wrap-up on
their Capital Improvement Projects (CIP). On that note, is there anyone that would like to
speak on this first item today? Mr. Mickens. Welcome.
There being no objections, the rules were suspended to take public testimony.
GLENN MICKENS: Thank you, Jay. I have passed out or the Clerk
has passed out my testimony. Let me read it for the viewing public if I may. If you have
any questions, I will be happy to try and answer them. To start my testimony, let me give
you a quote from the Reason Foundation of 09-02-10 "Hawai`i roads, among Nation's worst.
Hawai`i ranks forty-seven (47) out of fifty (50) States for State highway performance in cost
effectiveness." I believe that Ken Stokes went even further in saying that Kaua`i had the
worst roads in State, both County roads and State highways. With these facts being stated,
I believe that Larry Dill and Ray McCormick will do everything in their power to correct
the mess that has accumulated for so many years and are heading in the right direction.
One continually hears that we should not look back at past mistakes, but to look at today
and the future. Even with my optimism now, I cannot erase the eighteen (18) years I have
pounded away at our roads problems with no Councilmembers or anyone from the
Administration willing to address my concerns. Only our new Auditor Ernie Pasion took
my concerns seriously along with hundreds of pages of factual material I compiled over the
years. He did an outstanding audit of our roads. I find it interesting that neither this fine
audit or others that he has done have not come before the Council for discussion. I urge you
to put them on the agenda. His recommendations for bringing our road conditions up to
acceptable standards are well documented and all the more reason we have to look at past
methodology to correct the mistakes that were made. We have accumulated eight million
eight hundred thousand dollars ($8,800,000) in our Roads Resurfacing Fund since we have
done no paving in three (3) years. The Council passes a Resurfacing Budget each year,
prior to 2009 the job was bid on and completed by a local tractor. So, why the Method of
Operation (MO) has changed and by whom is a mystery. All data shows that by not doing
consistent maintenance, as not doing yearly resurfacing, the cost of doing repair work to
our roads will greatly increase. Again, this three (3) years of non-paving was very wrong.
Also, statistics I have shown where faulty pothole repair, dumping old air conditioning (AC)
mix into the hole which is all we do causes the water to reenter the faulty repair,
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deteriorates the subsurface which makes final road repair even more costly when it is done.
Plus by not properly cutting out a section of the pothole, as Code requires putting in a new
sub-base if necessary, installing hot AC mix and compacting it, we leave the cold AC higher
than the original road which takes its toll as you all know driving over these potholes. I
have some series questions to ask about the MicroPaver system that Larry is proposing to
use. For newly paved road this system sounds great and will obviously work. But for thirty
(30) and forty (40) year old roads which we have, I cannot see it working. Any computer
program is only as good as the information put into it and cannot solve any problem by
itself.
Chair Furfaro: That is your first three (3) minutes.
Mr. Mickens: Thank you, Jay. Where will the road by road,
mile by mile data come from containing the condition of the base, the shoulders, the top, the
width, the thickness, and the last time it was resurfaced? The time, manpower, and work
drilling cores for data that no one has involved to get the information needed for the
recruiter, would be prohibitive. Thus, I would say that buying such a system for what we
need and training the people to use it would be a waste of money. On June 1, 2011 Chair
Furfaro sent a series of questions to Larry Dill and to the Mayor, questions I has asked for
a long time. I sincerely appreciate him doing this. But I still have questions to Larry's
answers, his second one. Who is responsible for compiling and maintaining the data
regarding paving and repaving our records? Answer, the Roads Maintenance Division of
the Department of Public Works. Question, is this data for three hundred (300) miles of our
roads available to be used now and where is it? Three (3), questions why we are using one
ton of AC to pave ninety-five (95) square feet instead of one ton to pave one hundred eight
(108) square feet to give a final lift of one and a half (1%) inches as the paving calculator
indicates? Answer, basically says that one ton to pave one hundred eighty (180) square feet
is correct and after long years of arguing this point, I congratulate Larry for adhering to the
right method as indicated by our late bid. However, statistics seem to indicate that a final
one and a half(1%) inch lift is too thin for heavy traffic and trucks and needs to be two and
a half (2%) to three (3) inches thick. I really hope that Larry looks into that. I do think
that one and a half (1%) inch overlay, I think it is too thin for our roads. Well, driveways
are even two (2) inches thick. I cannot see that. Six (6), will the shoulders of all repaved
roads be back filled to prevent accidents and to keep edges from cracking? Yes. That is the
answer. Question, we have roads like Kainaholo that was resurfaced about eight (8) years
ago and many edges have never been leveled. So, this is not being done and even where
leveling is taking place, the wrong material is being used so that it washes away in heavy
rains. You can take a look up there at Olohena Road. On a curve up there, you will see
they put rock or gravel and it all washed out in this last rain. So, it is a waste of time and
money. But to do it this way, you are either going to put asphalt back in or some kind of
compacted material that will not wash out when trains. Seven (7), how are roads pick ford
resurfacing? Answer, pavement conditions, volume of traffic, potential liability of deferred
grouping of roads. Question, if these criteria are met, I have no problem. I think they are
excellent. But as with Kealia Road, it was repaved with very few houses for two hundred
eighty-five thousand dollars ($285,000) and these rules were not followed. The road was
resurfaced for a political reason and I want to know who will be overseeing our roads to see
this does not happen? Take the politics out of. Up in Waipouli Road, it is thirteen (13) feet
wide and two (2) vehicles cannot pass each other when in opposite directions without one or
both going on the shoulder. There are other thirteen (13) feet wide County roads, that
according to the Code book I have, no County road should be less than sixteen (16) feet
wide. If nothing, but safety for safety,purposes should not the roads be brought up to two
(2) car usable width? Finally, we find we need to find more funds to properly repave our
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roads if Larry and Ed are expected to do their jobs. To use American Association of State
Highway and Transportation Officials (AASHTO) standards, it will increase our cost
upfront considerably which means that under current budget conditions, we will only be
able to pave fewer miles of roads. The cost will probably be anywhere from three hundred
fifty thousand dollars ($350,000) to four hundred thousand dollars ($400,000) a mile
instead of about — Larry can correct me on these, instead of roughly, I think it is two
hundred fifty thousand dollars ($250,000) that it is now. We are on a twenty (20) to thirty
(30) year repaving schedule for our roads and this is just not acceptable for the driving
public.
Anyway, as you know, I have no dog in this fight. I have been going at it for
eighteen (18) years. I am not being paid to sit here and it took me a long time to compile
this. I sat the computer yesterday going over this. This is just a few of my many, many
papers that I have stacks of. I hope this body can appreciate what I am trying to do. But I
am sure the viewing public is asking the same questions. Even our State highways, they
put that cement in there, it is all cracking. It is not being properly — I have talked to Ray
McCormick and he is saying the same thing. They are not properly fixing the potholes and
things in the roads. But obviously, it is up to you folks. I do not know where you are going
to get the money for this because we have let it deteriorate for so long that we are going to
have come up with some big bucks to let these guy do their job. We are going to be able to
do what? Maybe five (5) or six (6) miles of road with a two million dollars ($2,000,000) to
three million dollars ($3,000,000) budget, three hundred (300) miles of road. Do the
figuring. Let us say at four hundred thousand dollars ($400,000) a mile, that is one
hundred twenty million dollars ($120,000,000). Divide that — we are talking about thirty
(30) or forty (40) years to repave our roads. That is just not a feasible situation. Anyway, if
you have any questions, I will be happy to try and answer them. If not, I appreciate your
time, Jay.
Chair Furfaro: Thank you, for regurgitating this whole process.
But we are in Budget Session and budget is about forecasting forward. I think you bring
up some very good points about how much we can allocate. But I do also want to confirm
you said that the criteria for identifying the roads, you seem to agree that Larry now has a
handle on it as wear, tear, exposure, usage, all comes into the calculation.
Mr. Mickens: Right.
Chair Furfaro: So, thank you for acknowledging that. You are
right, one hundred five million dollars ($105,000,000) to do our roads is much more than we
have, Glenn. Much more than we have.
Mr. Mickens: Thank you, Jay.
There being no one else to provide testimony, the meeting was called back to order,
and proceeded as follows:
Chair Furfaro: Questions for Glenn? No? Thank you very
much. To Mr. Dill and the Roads Department, you heard some of the questions surfaced in
Mr. Micken's piece. If you can touch on some of those questions, it would be very helpful for
us. Larry, who am I calling up? Are you coming up, and which members of your team?
Larry, before you get started today, I want to acknowledge that we have all gotten copied on
some testimony regarding some particular roads in Kilauea. It looked like the letter was
addressed to you, talking in terms of Kolo Road and
y g a one intersection there. It sounded,
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from the description, that it was something that a little repair and maintenance (R&M)
could take care of. But I would like to know that you are either responding to the
gentleman and you had copied the Council as well, that would be appreciated.
There being no objections, the rules were suspended.
LARRY DILL, P.E., County Engineer: One (1) of our roads inspectors has
been dispatched out to investigate and when he assesses, we will get back, should be this
week to the person that made the request. So, we will scope it out and we will keep you
informed.
Chair Furfaro: You will keep me informed? Thank you very
much. I am going to turn it over to you, Larry. Everything dealing with roads,
maintenance, and resurfacing.
Mr. Dill: Okay. Good morning, again. We did send a
response over to Council. So, I hope that you received that response, specifically response
to the April 1st Departmental Budget Reviews. The date of our memo was April 15th and
response was to question number four (4). Generally speaking, and speaking to that, first I
guess to address Mr. Mickens points. He brought up a lot of points. But generally
speaking, we are taking as we said many times at, more of a lifecycle cost look at the
roadways because we think that that will in the long run save our taxpayers money. It will
do a better job of keeping our roads in better condition and that involves inspecting our
roads to make sure that we are aware of repairs that need to be done before we simply go
ahead and add a layer of asphalt on top. We have spoken before to Council about
MicroPaver and what we hope to achieve using MicroPaver by really implementing an
Asset Management Program to manage our roadways and to schedule work that needs to
be done. As was touched on by Mr. Mickens, in order to have a decent Asset Management
Program we need a good inventory and assessment of our roads. So, we have accomplished,
through a contracted consultant or contractor, an inspection of all three hundred (300)
miles of our County roads with indication of areas of those roads and the condition in areas
that need to be repaired and levels of damage that they are currently in to begin to populate
this database for us. So, this is pretty much the first step in doing all of that. What came
over to Council was, and I just printed out the first page. It is a seventy-three (73) page list
that shows all three hundred (300) miles of County roads, the segment of the road, the
length of the road, the width of the road, and the pavement condition index which generally
takes a summary of inspections. There are several backup pieces of data that go into this in
order for to us apply a pavement condition index to this road. It basically tells us the range
of condition it is in from good to bad. I believe we also provided the Council this pavement
condition index page which kind of gives you a range of all these different descriptions.
There are several different pieces of data that go into the background of this, which I do not
think we provided you all the detail background. But it results in the pavement condition
index for this section of road which will allow us to prioritize roads that we want to include
in whatever island-wide resurfacing that we do.
Chair Furfaro: Excuse me, Larry. Can you give us a brief
description of the weighted value on the indices?
Mr.Dill: Sure. Generally speaking, or not generally, but
in detail, the program quantifies different criteria. There is transverse cracking which is
cracking perpendicular to the roadway direction of traffic, fatigue or alligator cracking
which shows a particular area that is beginning to fail, longitudinal cracking, cracking that
{
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is experienced in the direction of travel, patching and potholes that exist or the needs to
needs to be done in that area / that has happened in that areas, and edge cracking. Often
time, the edge of the traveled roadway will begin to fail. It takes all those criteria and they
are rated from low, medium, and high. There is a specific criteria to quantify that for our
inspectors to make sure that one (1), as we train our inspectors to do this work, they can do
it consistently according to a model that we are doing consistently across all our roadways.
Those inspection numbers that go into a matrix and that is based on the extent of the
segment of failure and the severity of the distress, come up with a number, and all that
rolls into a score which becomes — that are scored between zero (0) and one hundred (100),
zero (0) being the worst and one hundred (100) being the best. If you look at the sheet with
the list of roads. The PCI is the Pavement Condition Index. The higher the PCI, the better
the road shape is and the lower the worst condition it is. So, that gives you a real quick
look at, based on a lot of data that we put into the system, a real quick look at the current
condition of the road and how it will be prioritized for Island Wide Resurfacing Program.
Chair Furfaro: Real quick description again? For the alligator
cracking, of those four (4) categories that you described for us, which is the most severe? Is
it when water leaks down and contaminates the base through alligator cracking or is it the
one that is chipping away at the parameters of the road? Which do we understand which
might cause the most damage?
Mr. Dill: Actually, I do not know the details of which
would be prioritized as worst. But all of them play a part in determining the Pavement
Condition Index. In this it shows, it depends because sometimes alligator cracking may be
existing, but it will be a low extent. But edge cracking may existing, but to a high extent.
So, in that particular case for that road, the edge cracking would be more. As you know,
water getting into the roadway is a large problem we have with the amount of rain we have
on Kaua`i. So, a lot of issues or challenges we have related to inadequate drainage and so
that is something that we need to address while we also take care of our roads.
Chair Furfaro: That and contaminated core base.
Mr. Dill: Well, contaminated?
Chair Furfaro: With water?
Mr. Dill: Yes, that is correct. When water gets into the
base, right.
Chair Furfaro: Thank you for that.
Mr. Dill: You are welcome. Lastly, we provided the
Council with the pavement maintenance cost, some unit cost. Now, these costs, you can see
the categories are from low maintenance due to a crack seal, patching, slurry seal, and
overlay while reconstruction. We have these costs established into a unit cost. Then we
can apply the use of the various areas and come up with some estimates. We are in the
beginning of this process now, to try and apply costs to these. We, like Mr. Mickens pointed
out, are very concerned about our resources and applying the resources judiciously. So,
with the MicroPaver program, we will be able to take all this data then and be able to —our
goal at the end of the day is to come up with a program where we can resurface our roads
every (x) number of years. Some of our roads, when you resurface, they should last ten (10)
years. But we have roads that survive much longer because the conditions are better. The
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base core is better, the drainage is better, they are not subject to some of these things that
attack them. But some of the roads we have more challenges. So, in addition to the paving,
we would want to do some drainage improvements perhaps, in order to help those
roadways. We are also looking—you can see on the list we have things like slurry sealing .
We are talking about what we can do to start doing some slurry sealing on our road 'which
would be a way to extend the life of our roads without having go with a complete
resurfacing project. If the road is in good shape, it has begun to lose some fines or
something is on the surface. A slurry seal may be a relatively inexpensive way of achieving
a longer life span of the road without having to go with the full cost of overlaying that road.
But all of that information has to put into MicroPaver and then analyzed and be able to use
MircoPaver to do this for us. We have also begun more and more, and Mr. Mickens
mentioned this as well, we have done more core sampling. The roads we are doing with the
Island Wide Resurfacing we have found a lot of variation as to what exists in the base cores.
That is because of the roads were built by different entities, some by the County, some by
the State, some about private entities, and some by plantations and they all served various
levels of service. When it comes to resurfacing it, it brings up different challenges for us.
We are employing core sampling now when we go out to certain areas to determine what
exactly is out there in the road and to help us to better know what needs to be do in moving
forward. We are getting towards the tail end of getting a lot of raw data in, three hundred
(300) miles of road worth raw data has taken a while. But it can be very helpful for us in
moving forward. Now, we are going to be applying that into MicroPaver and using that to
manage our Island Wide Resurfacing. That is an overview, I think, and I would be happy to
take any questions. I also want to recognize our Roads Division has been spear heading
this. This is really a change in the way we do business and we really feel it is going to be a
benefit to the County, our citizens, and our taxpayers.
Chair Furfaro: Let me get some quick clarity. It is now the
Department of Public Works, Roads Division's desire to accumulate the money that we
budgeted each year to what will be maybe a three (3) year project of resurfacing?
Mr. Dill: Generally speaking, well to back up a step. As
you are aware, the audit that came out. One of the things that came out of it was an
indication that Island Wide Resurfacing should be budgeted as part of the Operating
Budget as opposed to CIP because it is a maintenance effort.
Chair Furfaro: Larry, I had that argument when they did it for
the whole time I have been on the Council. I got that.
Mr. Dill: Okay. That being the case, well that is part of
the picture. What we also found, as was brought up earlier by Mr. Mickens, is that Island
Wide Resurfacing was not done for a few years. But the County kept telling the Council
continue to appropriate moneys towards that effort. When we did put an Island Wide
Resurfacing contract recently, we had more money in the pot and having more money in the
pot, we were able to get a better "bang for our buck," a better unit price for our construction.
Chair Furfaro: Stop right there, which is the second part of my
question. Are we doing it every three (3) years in your plan and by doing it bulk, what
percentage of expanded coverage will we get by getting a better price? Will it increase our
paving by fifteen percent (15%) in the years that we pave, ten percent (10%)? Do you have
an idea?
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Mr. Dill: I do not have a percentage. I can go back and see
what that might be.
Chair Furfaro: I think you better get that if you folks are selling
us this idea. I mean, if you do not know what we are going to benefit from delaying paving,
you are trying to tell us that we can get a better price from the bids because they are going
to be here doing more work, they can ship better equipment here, are we going to get ten
percent (10%), fifteen percent (15%) more out of it? But to hear we are not sure, I kind of...
Mr. Dill: I hear your question. I know we are getting a
better deal. I cannot say the exact percentage. But let me go back and I will research that
for you.
Chair Furfaro: It would be good to inform us so that we can
assure Mr. Mickens that we are not paving this year because we expect to get more
mileage, more coverage. I think that is an important piece for us to have. How long do you
think it will take us? Will you respond to us in the week?
Mr. Dill: Yes.
Chair Furfaro: Thank you. Okay, may we entertain any
questions right now?
Mr. Dill: Sure.
Chair Furfaro: Members? Mr. Hooser.
Mr. Hooser: One of the things that was just passed out was
some of the questions and answers. One of the items is the Global Positioning System
(GPS) Fueling System. Fuel Management System that you are currently procuring,it does
not offer GPS. So, it is a cost estimate of that. In round numbers, the estimate is one
hundred twenty thousand dollars ($120,000) for the equipment and one hundred forty-four
thousand dollars ($144,000) a year is your estimate. This would install GPS, I believe, on
every County car and monitor where those cars drive on a permanent record electronically?
Is that a correct description of what this would do?
Mr. Dill: That is correct.
Mr. Hooser: Okay. When you got the estimate, was this what
I call, a "quick and dirty" estimate? You kind of Google around and talk to somebody and
get approximates. It is not a formal?
Mr. Dill: It is not a formal bid. But it is after discussions
with vendors.
Mr. Hooser: Is this something that there were funds
available? I understand it is an ongoing cost of one hundred forty-four thousand dollars
($144,000) a year. Have you given any thought to what that might save the County in
terms of fuel, or service on the cars, or making sure that the car is not abused and that kind
of thing?
w
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Mr. Dill: We have certainly given thought to that. We
have been focused on getting Fuel Master implemented with the current budget and getting
that implemented. We have not focused on getting GPS. It was not as high a priority item
for us. So, we may consider that as a future effort. We have not gotten it budgeted in
Fiscal Year 2014, but perhaps 2015.
Mr. Hooser: If this was funded in 2014, just a hypothetical
question, would you be able to implement it?
Mr. Dill: I cannot answer that question one hundred
percent (100%) right now. We are concerned there may be Union implications as well and
so we would have to address with them before we would be able to implement it.
Mr. Hooser: So, there might be something in the Union
contract that prohibits GPS on cars?
Mr. Dill: A privacy thing.
Mr. Hooser: Okay.
Mr. Dill: I would have to defer to the Attorneys on that
issue.
Mr. Hooser: When you would be able to determine that?
Mr. Dill: Well, we have not looked into that yet because I
said we were not doing Fiscal Year 2014. Right now, if we implement GPS we would
consider it for Fiscal Year 2015. I do not even have it scheduled to look into it.
Mr. Hooser: Right. It is clearly an issue that is important to
the community in terms abuse or possible abuse or misuse of gasoline and County cars. It
seems like it would be fairly easy to determine whether or not it violates the Union
contract. I mean, it is a written contract. Do you have a copy of the contract? Can I look at
the contract?
Mr. Dill: Oh, certainly.
II
Mr. Hooser: Maybe I can figure it out or we can ask cannot
the County Attorney to do that. So, assuming that it is not in violation of a Union contract,
would the Department be able to implement this type of thing if we were funding it?
Mr. Dill: Since we are talking about the installation of
these units on four hundred (400) vehicles, I do not know what the effort is required from a
time constraint to install those. I would be guessing. My guess would be that we could.
But I would have to confirm that.
Mr. Hooser: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
Chair Furfaro: Questions? JoAnn, you have the floor.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes. Thank you very much for submittal of this
information. It is far more concrete, pardon the pun, than I have ever seen before and
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indicates to me that we are on our way to a lot more objective system of analyzing,
assessing, and then repairing our roads. This list of seventy-three (73) pages County of
Kaua`i road pavement condition, this was done by a contractor you said?
Mr. Dill: That is correct.
Ms. Yukimura: That is very good, too. How does this
information fit in with your proposed budget for this year?
Mr. Dill: MicroPaver is still — we have all the raw data
now or majority of the raw data, probably all the raw data I should say. MicroPaver is not
fully implemented yet. So, this information for our current year is not being used or it is
not implemented yet because they are still in the process of getting MicroPaver up and
running. Now that we have the data, we have to populate it appropriately and we have
another consultant helping us do that, to make sure it is done correctly.
Ms. Yukimura: We have a certain amount in the budget for
repaving of roads.
Mr. Dill: Right.
Ms. Yukimura: What is it? How much is it, I am sorry?
Mr. Dill: An additional one million two hundred thousand
dollars ($1,200,000) this u year.
Ms. Yukimura: The plan right now is to accumulate that so that
with next year's allocation you would be able to go out for a repaving contract, Fiscal
Year 2015?
Mr. Dill: 2015.
Ms. Yukimura: Well, we are doing Fiscal Year 2014's budget, so
right. It would be for Fiscal Year 2015 that you would do the actual repaving?
Mr. Dill: Correct.
Ms. Yukimura: You are looking at about doubling?
Mr. Dill: Assuming we do the same.
Ms. Yukimura: Say two million five hundred thousand dollars
($2,500,000). With this information so you sort of tested this or are you still in the
process of testing how accurate this information is? I mean, I checked a couple of roads I
know and it seems accurate. Zero (0) year life on one of the roads I was looking at. I guess
I am not clear why you could not use a computer to put together all of the zero (0) year life
roads, find out how many miles that is, and say we need to develop a program to start
there. I mean, I realize the dilemma because maybe you want to use all the money to
repave those roads that you can preventatively maintain, that will save them from getting
into a zero (0) year life left. I guess I am asking, and it is because I do not understand, I
am sure. Why could you not use this information and develop a repaving program right
now?
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Mr. Dill: No, I agree. When I saw all of those remaining
surface life roads were zero (0), it is very tempting to say there is our Island Wide
Resurfacing list for this year or as much it as we can do. We are having that discussion. I
am reluctant to make a knee-jerk response to the raw data that we received.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes.
Mr. Dill: So, we wanting to wait another six (6) to eight (8)
months until we got MicroPaver populated, I think is worth it for us to make sure we do
this more coherently and logically.
Ms. Yukimura: That is a good answer to me. I do not like to
rush into things and then have to make a lot of expensive corrections later to the process. I
see that this data is of December 2012, basically you just got it.
Mr. Dill: Correct.
Ms. Yukimura: Is it not possible though that when you do
develop a rational road repaving program, the cost will be far more than the one million
two hundred thousand dollars ($1,200,000) a year that we are presently calibrating, so to
speak?
Mr. Dill: Very possible.
Ms. Yukimura: When do you think you will have a proposed
repaving program long-term repaving program, in another six (6) to eight (8) months?
Ms. Yukimura: We have our consultant on board and he is
scheduled to come to us by December to help us to get MicroPaver populated and up stood
up and up and running. It would be early next calendar year. January, first quarter next
year.
Ms. Yukimura: So, in time for next year's budget possibly?
Mr. Dill: Yes.
Ms. Yukimura: And next year's budget would be the beginning of
a maybe ten (10) year plan to get our roads up to speed?
Mr. Dill: Well, the beginning of a plan. I do not know if it
will be a ten (10) year plan.
Ms. Yukimura: Yes, you cannot tell. Okay, thank you.
Ms. Nakamura: Thank you for your presentation and for this
good information which is really the inventory of all of the roads on Kaua`i. Does it include
all the County owned roads?
Mr. Dill: Yes. Caveat, does not include roads in limbo.
There are about, I think, there are forty-two (42) miles we estimated roads in limbo on
Kaua`i. Sorry, forty-two and a half(42%). I am corrected by my Deputy County Engineer.
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Ms. Nakamura: Thank you for being precise. I wanted to ask
you, so now that we had a consultant that came up with this data. The MicroPaver
program data will give us what additional information?
LYLE TABATA, Deputy County Engineer: I can help. As I mentioned
in the last session, this is the raw data from which when our contractor went out to gather
the data. They used approximately fifteen (15) different criteria to create what you
received and from that criteria, after we learned how to use the software as Larry
mentioned, training should start in August. We will be able to then drill down more
specifically to the needs of each extended road. What you see, that is zero (0) life, that is
just a rounded up figure. However, on each road there are sectors that are still probably
viable and not one hundred percent (100%). If I was to put a rounded up figure like say
road reconstruction to the entire road, that would give us a very conservative number
rather than more accurate. So, what we hope to get from the software is the drilling down
of only the specific areas that really required for reconstruction versus in general, it is
rolled up right now, zero (0) year life. If you just attach the reconstruction cost for the
entire length, we will probably overspend. It will help us drill down exactly where the real
needs are.
Ms. Nakamura: So, a portion of one road may have a section that
would be reconstructed and another section?
Mr. Tabata: Maybe just overlay and so forth. So, that is what
we hope to get from the training and really allow us to drill down. We can take this data
and we have run it and created models in excel to help us. But the numbers are staggering.
We need to learn how to use the software as it was intended to help us drill down.
Mr. Dill: If I may add. MicroPaver, as Lyle said, will come
up with recommendation for road. It may be reconstruct from this station to that station
and patch a pothole over here and then slurry seal the whole thing. But it is a wide variety
of combinations that could come up with recommendations for roads which is why we do not
necessarily just start right now with the raw data that we have because it will come up
with recommendations for what sort of work needs to be done. I will mention that we are
close to getting a pothole patcher. Whereas in the past, I think coal patching was as
mentioned, more of less our standard practice. Now we will be able to do hot mix after
prepping the pothole appropriately so our potholes will be more effective as well.
Ms. Nakamura: I think you can, with this data, I am sure it is
pretty easy to get some big picture estimates.
Mr. Tabata: Yes, we have. A little bit more detail, to answer
Mr. Micken's comments that this is the surface data. As Larry mentioned earlier, and Ed
just reminded us, we also have to bring in our core sampling data so we know what the
underlay looks like and that gets fed in also to help us to have a full picture of the entire
section of road, especially where reconstruction is recommended.
Ms. Nakamura: Right. I guess the question then becomes, back
to Councilmember Yukimura's point, about what are the big picture implications of this
study? Right now we are kind of working backwards. We are saying this is the fixed
amount that we set aside for roadway resurfacing. But I think what we need to do is
balance that with the results of your analysis and the timelines for when you really have to
decrease these issues. I think that is the trade off part that needs to happen at some point
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before next year's budget. I am hoping by the end of the year we might have that kind of
analysis. I am not sure if that is realistic.
Mr. Dill: That is the plan.
Ms. Nakamura: That sound good. Thank you.
Chair Furfaro: Larry, in this evaluation, you and I both have
had pretty extensive experience with slurry seal. It is all through your community
association. I have used it in hotels, driveways, parking lots, and so forth. When you are
drilling down on these costs and before it is a number that we cannot realistically address
without maybe borrowing some money, are you also evaluating what savings we will get
from slurry seal work?
Mr. Dill: Yes.
Chair Furfaro: That will be in the program?
Mr. Dill: Yes.
Chair Furfaro: So, money that might have been directed towards
long-term fixes may come from some short-term just improving the standards by slurry
seal?
Mr. Dill: Yes.
Chair Furfaro: Okay, so that will all one in one picture. Thank
you very much, thank you. Other questions? JoAnn, you have the floor again.
Ms. Yukimura: How many new roads a year do we add to our
inventory?
Mr. Tabata: We have not had many recently. The last recap
that we did two (2) years ago was just short of half a mile. We mentioned this, we have
three hundred (300) miles, but it is actually three hundred point four (300.4), to be exact.
Chair Furfaro: Engineers are like that JoAnn, to be exact.
Ms. Yukimura: I know. I was going to use word, but I will not.
Are we reassured that the new roads that are coming on, and we go in cycles in terms of
development, so we could come across a time soon where it revs up again. Are we sure that
the new roads are properly built so that we are starting with really good roads?
Mr. Dill: Yes. Generally speaking, if a developer builds a
subdivision, those are all engineered and construction drawings submitted to the
Department of Public Works. Our Engineering Division reviews and approves those to
make sure they meet current specifications, criteria, and standards. Then when the
roadways get built, we have our inspectors out there. So, we watch what they do.
Ms. Yukimura: The beginning part is taken care of and now if we
can get all of our roads upgraded, then we should look forward to a good road system in the
long run.
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Mr. Dill: In the long run, that is correct. I will add
another thing that occurs to me that Mr. Mickens brought up is we have many substandard
County roads for a million and one different reasons.
Ms. Yukimura: Right.
Mr. Dill: Roads that we more of less inherited from some
former owner.
Ms. Yukimura: Or some that were not properly inspected at
time of construction.
Mr. Dill: That too, yes But bringing roads up to County
standards, I do not want to say is impossible in some conditions, but very challenging. For
some of those small roads, that is where the cost effectiveness becomes a challenge. When
you have a narrow road that is a thirteen (13) foot width and was brought up at our
minimum standard is sixteen (16) feet, well, we rarely allow a sixteen (16) foot wide
pavement of County roads. But that is our minimum standard. But to bring all of those
roads up to County standards would be a costly venture.
Ms. Yukimura: And for some of them that are very infrequently
ridden upon or whatever, it seems to work.
Mr. Dill: Yes.
Ms. Yukimura: Where there is a lot of growth and a lot of traffic,
that becomes a problem, I would guess.
Mr. Dill: I agree. So, whereas we are talking about
bringing roads up to County standards, that is the usual criteria. But there are always
exceptions to that rule.
Ms. Yukimura: I am thinking that our main immediate goal,
though it may happen only ten (10) years or fifteen (1)5 years, would be to bring the
pavement up to standard. Is that not basically the goal of this repaving program?
Mr. Dill: Yes, it is to bring the structural pavement to a
serviceable condition, yes.
Ms. Yukimura: Right, which includes the undergirding — I mean
that is the reconstruction part is it?
Mr. Dill: Correct, yes.
Ms. Yukimura: Or the base of it?
Mr. Dill: Base course, yes.
Ms. Yukimura: We have a clear goal, which is to get the
pavement on County roads in shape. Then we could go to a — I mean that may take all of
our time and then to keep it constantly over time. So, that means executing a complete
preventative maintenance program on going.
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Mr. Dill: Yes.
Ms. Yukimura: Well, I want to say that this submittal represents
huge strides between last year and this year. I am very much encouraged that we are on
the right track. Do you know whether O`ahu, which is going through a real re-evaluation of
their roads, are they using the system we are using? When I read about them, they were
doing some kind of filming of roads. Are we also taking pictures or this MicroPaver system
is an inspection, recording system?
EDMOND P.K. RENAUD, Chief of Field Operations & Maintenance: I was
in a two (2) day workshop this past week and I did have conversations with the different
City and County representatives and the Department of Transportation (DOT) people and
other Counties. I also talked to the Dr. Asia, he is the lead specialist that is working with
them. I talked to the doctor and I said what is the problem out there with the City and
County? He came back to me and he said, they do not have the accurate conditions of the
roads. So, it has taking them much longer, also DOT. I said, well we are one step ahead by
communicating by you and looking at our records, we are ready for you and that is the
biggest problem they have there. I talked to the Superintendent for City and County and
he said their roads are in very bad shape. On Saturday I want riding with them and if you
look at our roads, our roads are in super condition except, I am going use an example,
Maluhia entrance up Maluhia Road, their roads are much worse than that. On this island,
I would say that is our worst, on Pee Road, that one section when you enter Maluhia. Our
other roads just need repairing with the alligators and whatnot. But compared to O`ahu, it
is going to cost a lot of money.
Ms. Yukimura: As someone who lived there from 1998 to 2002, I
am clear that the roads are far worse on O`ahu than on Kaua`i. It is my sense, and you
somewhat confirmed that, is that Kaua`i is leading the way now in terms of a proper road
maintenance system. I see Glenn shaking his head. I know his standards are high. But, in
fact, this represents us going in the direction that I think Mr. Mickens has been
encouraging using to do. I think laying a good database is very, very key to a good
program reconstruction/repaving program. Thank you very much for your work on this. I
cannot say I look forward to the proposed program next year because I think it is going to
be a huge bill. But I am satisfied at least, that we will be using our money well. It will be a
fair system that is what our taxpayers deserve. Thank you.
Chair Furfaro: I am going to go back a little bit here, Larry. We
are talking about standard County roads, especially as it relates to some of these
Condominium Property Regime (CPR) subdivisions, that at some point these thirteen (13)
foot roads are then conveyed to us. They might have happened in many of the rural areas
and so forth. But is that burden to bring it up now to a County standard? Is that totally
the burden of the Counties and if so, why would we not we have received the sixteen (16)
foot road to begin with? You and I, up in Po`uku, were familiar with Kapaka, thirteen (13)
feet, never can two (2) cars travel on that road, especially when they go up mauka. The
main road was conveyed to us, the interior roads were not. So, is that now our burden?
Mr. Dill: Generally speaking, our criteria is if someone
wishes to convey a roadway to us, our requirement is that they bring the road to County
standard before we will accept it. So, that is generally the criteria. So, that would not be
our burden.
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Chair Furfaro: But in this particular case, I do not think the
Po`uku Road going mauka, I think we have accepted it. I do not think it is at County
standard and therefore, one of the anterior roads have come before us and we have refused
it. What is the condition to accept a road that is substandard in width at any particular
time? What would be the exceptions if any, I guess?
Mr. Dill: That is difficult to answer because there are no
written criteria to what the exceptions are. We would have to receive an application from
someone wishing to convey a road to us and they would have to make their case to us. But
generally speaking, our criteria is it meets County standards and they would have to justify
anything short of that.
Chair Furfaro: They do not have to testify?
Mr. Dill: They would have to justify.
Chair Furfaro: They would have to?
Mr. Dill: Yes.
Chair Furfaro: Okay, thank you. Other questions? Vice Chair?
Ms. Nakamura: Just relating to personnel in the Roads Division,
you have just about one hundred (100) personnel?
Mr. Renaud: Eighty (80).
Ms. Nakamura: We have been focusing a lot on the contract and
the intent to do it every two (2) or three (3) years. Then you have your existing staff and
what is your goal for during a typical year in terms of how many roads get paved by that
staff?
Mr. Dill: We do not do paving in-house. We do pothole
repair and I just touched on it briefly earlier, that we are looking at upgrading our
methodology for doing the pothole repairs so we get a better product. That is what we do
in-house. We do minor, roadway Swale fixes where we have drainage problems. So, we
reconstruct swales to improve drainage along the roads. But we do not do any paving. We
are having a discussion in-house when we talked about slurry sealing. There are different
types of sealing, seal coats, chip seals, slurry sealing, and we have been having a discussion
as to whether it would be appropriate for us to create Slurry Seal Team in-house and we
may be able to achieve more efficiencies by doing it in-house rather than contracting that
out. But that is still a discussion item at moment.
Ms. Nakamura: I am just wondering how do you measure the
success of the crews that are doing the work of fixing potholes and swales and so forth?
Mr. Dill: Well, we will be able to measure it with
MicroPaver because part of the goal is to have our District Road Overseer (DRO) be the
folks that assume because as was noted, this inspection was done December 2012. But it
will have to be kept up-to-date on a regular basis. So, we are talking about what would be
the frequency of inspections, who would do the inspections, etcetera? By continually doing
that, we will be able to see how effective our programs are for maintaining our road. It
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would be a check and balance. We will have the proposal, we will do the work, and then we
will follow-up to see how effective it has been.
Ms. Nakamura: Do you see the need to have different job
descriptions or do you need to change what things people do in your Division in order to
accomplish?
Mr. Dill: Yes, and that has already begun. Ed has been
thinking hard about the Roads reorganization that is currently being implemented. For
instance, we are creating a Bridge Maintenance Crew. We will have certain specialties that
are defined within those position descriptions that that crew is responsible for maintenance
on those bridges. Prior to that, I believe in Public Works, the only folks who were
designated and in their description had concrete work, was in the Building Division. So, we
relied and received support from the Building Division to do building maintenance
activities. But we have made those changes to initiate that so we can begin that work
ourselves. Of course, if we move in the direction of doing slurry seal in-house, we will have
to address those things as well.
Ms. Nakamura: Thank you very much.
Chair Furfaro: Just a follow-up question, JoAnn. So, building
and repair is currently doing bridges, but your people will be shifting that way. What
happens to the bridge portion that building and repair was doing?
Mr. Dill: Well, I am not sure I follow the question. But
Building Division has plenty of work to do in other maintenance.
Chair Furfaro: Oh, that is your answer then.
Mr. Dill: Yes.
Chair Furfaro: They have plenty of work to do?
Mr. Dill: Yes, plenty of work to do.
Chair Furfaro: Now, did you follow my question though?
Mr. Dill: Oh, yes.
Chair Furfaro: If you are taking the road guys and having them
focus on — I look forward you to developing with the Divisions under you on repair &
maintenance, some routine of checklists so that we do not fall so far behind with items
including parks because building repair can now address it. JoAnn you have the floor.
Ms. Yukimura: Thank you. I think we covered this in the last
session on Roads. But you have also achieved in making the Highways Division pretty
much self-sufficient based on the Highway Fund. Is that right? You are not getting any
General Fund subsidy for your Roads and Highway Crews?
Mr. Dill: That is correct, yes.
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Ms. Yukimura: To me, that is also a very good achievement that
the roads are, at least right now, sort of paying for itself although we still have to see what
the program is that will be proposed. But that is very good. Thank you.
Chair Furfaro: Just a short program note. We would like to
make note that Mr. Kagawa had indicated that he would be excused until 10:00 a.m. Let
the record show he is now in attendance and Mr. Bynum has been extended to be absent
the entire day. Thank you. Welcome, Mr. Kagawa.
Mr. Kagawa: Thank you.
Chair Furfaro: Further questions for roads? If not, I am going to
thank you and give us an opportunity to study your pieces and we will let you folks go. We
are going to go into a fifty-five (55) minute recess. We are back at 11:00 a.m. with the
Kaua`i Humane Society. Thank you.
There being no objections, the Committee recessed at 10:06 a.m.