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HomeMy WebLinkAbout 12/02/2015 Public hearing transcript on BILL#2606 PUBLIC HEARING DECEMBER 2, 2015 A public hearing of the Council of the County of Kauai was called to order by Arryl Kaneshiro, Chair, Budget & Finance Committee, on Wednesday, December 2, 2015, at 1:33 p.m., at the Council Chambers, 4396 Rice Street, Suite 201, Historic County Building, Lihu`e, and the presence of the following was noted: Honorable Mason K. Chock Honorable Gary L. Hooser Honorable Ross Kagawa Honorable Arryl Kaneshiro Honorable KipuKai Kuali`i Honorable JoAnn A. Yukimura Honorable Mel Rapozo The Clerk read the notice of the public hearing on the following: "Bill No. 2606 — A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE AMENDING CHAPTER 5A, ARTICLE 9, KAUAI COUNTY CODE 1987, AS AMENDED, BY ADDING A NEW SECTION 5A-9.3, RELATING TO A HOMESTEAD TAX CAP FOR HOME EXEMPTION AND LONG TERM AFFORDABLE RENTAL PROPERTIES," which was passed on first reading and ordered to print by the Council of the County of Kauai on November 4, 2015, and published in The Garden Island newspaper on November 10, 2015. The following communications were received for the record: 1. Beardmore, Carol, December 1, 2015 2. Carlson, Ken, November 19, 2015 3. Freeman, Marge, November 19, 2015 4. Ham Young-Giorgio, Hayley, November 23, 2015 5. McLaughlin, Kimberly, November 20, 2015 and November 25, 2015 6. Rasmussen, Bonnie, November 25, 2015 7. Wells, Terry & Carole, December 2, 2015 The hearing proceeded as follows: SCOTT K. SATO, Deputy County Clerk: We received seven (7) testimony in support and have one (1) registered speaker. The first speaker is Kimberly McLaughlin. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Hi, Kimberly. You need to push the button and when it turns blue, it will go on and have three (3) minutes. The light will turn green, then when it turns yellow, it means you have thirty (30) seconds. Then when it turns red, I need to stop you. If you have more than three (3) minutes, after everybody gets a chance to testify, you can come back for another three (3) minutes. PUBLIC HEARING 2 DECEMBER 2, 2015 BILL NO. 2606 KIMBERLY MCLAUGHLIN: Okay. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: You may begin. Ms. McLaughlin: Thank you. Aloha. Councilmember Hooser: Aloha. Ms. McLaughlin: Thank you for allowing me to speak and be here today on behalf of my family, who is working today. I took the afternoon off of teaching my students to be here to make my voice heard today. Thank you. I am also here on behalf of many Hanalei residents. My family, we are longtime homeowners in Hanalei. We have owned our home for thirty-one (31) years. We have the house we live in and then we have a little cottage on our property that we vacation rent. You have heard our story. Our family has been here two (2) summers in a row letting you know how the property tax increases have affected our family. In the last four (4) years, they have increased a horrific four hundred seventy-three percent (473%). Fortunately, the recent new class, Commercialized Home Use, is really going to help our family. We wrote a letter just recently thanking you for passing that. I am also here on behalf of our neighborhood because I do not think that the Council realized the effects of taking off the tax cap and changing classifications of properties four (4) years ago. I have spent the last four (4) months researching how many long-term families in Hanalei have had to sell in the last two (2) years due to tax pressures. Do you have a copy of my letter I recently sent you? If not, I have copies. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: I can confirm that we did receive your E-mailed testimony. Ms. McLaughlin: Okay. I have copies if you would like to pass them out. If not, it is okay. You will get them. I interviewed eighteen (18) families. There is seven (7) of each. Seven (7) of these, seven (7) of these, and seven (7) of the last ones. I interviewed eighteen (18) families that have had to sell in Hanalei in the last two (2) years. Out of eighteen (18) of those, thirteen (13) families, these are all long-term residents, have had to sell because of tax pressures. They just could not make it anymore. They could not pay the bills anymore. You will see it on the spreadsheet. Most of the families have owned for a minimum of ten (10) years. Out of the other five (5) families, some had to sell due to divorce, or a death in the family, or miscellaneous circumstances. But as you can see, there has been many long-term families who have wanted to remain in Hanalei and have had to sell. I got some statistics from Bali Hai Realty. As far as home sales in the last ten (10) years in Hanalei...I am going to add these up here. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Kim. Ms. McLaughlin: In the last... Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Sorry. Your time is up. Your first three (3) minutes is up. Ms. McLaughlin: Okay. PUBLIC HEARING 3 DECEMBER 2, 2015 BILL NO. 2606 Committee Chair Kaneshiro: I am going to see if there is any more testimony on this, and then you can come back for another three (3) minutes. Ms. McLaughlin: Okay. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Was that all of the speakers that signed up? Is there anyone in the audience wishing to testify on this matter? Ms. McLaughlin: He is. He is my neighbor. We are here together. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Are you wishing to testify, sir? Okay, you can come and testify for the first time. Ms. McLaughlin: But he just walked in. So, he is just asking what bill we are addressing. Councilmember Yukimura: Can I ask her to repeat her testimony, which I am entitled to under the Council rules? Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Repeat her entire testimony? Councilmember Yukimura: Yes, because I did not get all of it. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Well, she still has another three (3) minutes. So, I am sure she is going to say more of her testimony. Then we can open it up for questions. Councilmember Yukimura: I do not think she is going to say the same thing she said in the beginning. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Because she probably still has more to say, and I want to give her at least her time to say what she has to say. Councilmember Yukimura: Okay. Then I will ask her to repeat her six (6) minutes. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: I do not know what the rules are on making somebody repeat their entire testimony. Again, I know... Councilmember Yukimura: It says we can ask the testifier to clarify statements... Councilmember Kagawa: Mr. Chair. Councilmember Yukimura: ...or repeat. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: I can say that we did receive her testimony in E-mail and we will have the meeting minutes that they are going to type up her entire testimony. Councilmember Yukimura: And the rules say we can ask for a repeat. PUBLIC HEARING 4 DECEMBER 2, 2015 BILL NO. 2606 Councilmember Kagawa: Process. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Councilmember Kagawa. Councilmember Kagawa: Let us not be childish here. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Please state your name. Councilmember Yukimura: What did he say? Committee Chair Kaneshiro: You have three (3) minutes. If you go over, you have to come back for another three (3) minutes. Your microphone is on when the light is blue. Councilmember Kagawa: Let us not be childish. STEVE LINDSEY: Steve Lindsey, Hanalei resident. I am here in support of a tax cap, but I have talked to Walter Lewis a bit about this, and I talked to Councilmember Yukimura a little bit about it. To me in that I am Homestead now, I am kind of protected. But I am not protected from people that are flipping and coming into my neighborhood. They buy a house and they flip it within six (6) months or a year or whatever. So, that portion does affect me directly on my property taxes. Walter's point is that the government has to run. They have to have enough money to operate. I think that there has to be some flexible scale for figuring the property tax that is not necessarily a cap, but a cap and something that has to do with the cost of living. I do not know how the cost of living here is decided, but I know they do it over in Honolulu. So, it seems to me that you have to make some allowance for government because your costs are going up as our costs are going up also. My suggestion is that you need to take a real careful look at the numbers and the two (2) need to be melded. Now on property tax real quickly, the thought that it is unfair for the new buyer who is coming into the market and that he should be equal to somebody that has been here for a long time, I think that he knowingly buys his property with the facts at the time. So, what happens now is that the rug has been shifted under many people that are coming into the market and they are going to be caught up in it too because we are seeing the millionaires being bought out by the billionaires, et cetera. I mean, if people are willing to pay the prices for the property, I live in Hanalei, that my days are numbered there. Is that... Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Thirty (30) seconds. Mr. Lindsey: Thirty (30) seconds. Walter felt Councilmember Yukimura's idea had merit too, that if you protected the long-time residents and then you collected some money for the County on the far end of that, he said that ought to be looked at also. He thought that had merit as an idea and ought to be on the table. Thank you. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak on this matter for the first time? Okay. Kim, if you want to continue. This is to continue where you left off. You have three (3) minutes. Ms. McLaughlin: Okay, continuing where I left off. I got some statistics from Bali Hai Realty that from 2006 to 2010, there were twenty-two (22) PUBLIC HEARING 5 DECEMBER 2, 2015 BILL NO. 2606 home sales in Hanalei alone. From 2011 to 2015, there were fifty-two (52) home sales. In 2015 alone as of middle of November, there were twenty-one (21) home sales. That is almost thirty percent (30%) in the last ten (10) years. Thirty percent (30%) were sold this year compared to the last ten (10) years. In my mind, this is my theory, it has had a huge impact. I just wanted to bring it to your attention because you are trying to make the best decision for the higher good and sometimes we do not know our affects. I really believe that for our family, the new Commercialized Home Use category is going to help us out tremendously. However, we still just do not know from year to year what to expect as far as property value. In Hanalei, it has been skyrocketing. You can see our values. Our family will not be able to afford a home in Hanalei if we were to buy today and we are hoping to keep this home in our family for the rest of our lives. If we were to sell today, I guess we would make millions, but that is not our goal. We want to stay on Kaua`i and we want to contribute to Kauai making Kaua`i a better place. We are firmly for Bill No. 2606. Thank you Councilmember Hooser, and thank you all. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Thank you. The rules state that "...you may ask the speaker to repeat or rephrase statements made during their testimony..." Therefore, I am not going to allow you to have her repeat her entire testimony again. She has provided written testimony. You can request her in writing to rephrase anything that you want, but I am not going to have her repeat her entire testimony again. Councilmember Yukimura: Okay, then I am going to ask her to repeat certain statements, except that I do not know what those statements were. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Again, we can always go back... Council Chair Rapozo: Mr. Chair. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: You can E-mail her for clarification. Councilmember Yukimura: No. The public cannot hear the answer and this is the public record. It is not on public record if I call her up separately. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Sorry. The public did hear because the public is going to get to watch her to television (TV). Councilmember Yukimura: No, but they do not have the clarification that is needed by what was said. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: But she is just rephrasing. Councilmember Yukimura: I know. So, why do we even have that rule because what we really need to know... Committee Chair Kaneshiro: I do not know why you are arguing with me on this. Councilmember Yukimura: Because I would like to know whether the vacation rental rate she said is the Commercialized rate, I also want to clarify that she has a vacation rental on her property, I want to know whether the eighteen (18) people... PUBLIC HEARING 6 DECEMBER 2, 2015 BILL NO. 2606 Council Chair Rapozo: Mr. Chair, point of order. Councilmember Yukimura: The eighteen (18) people have... Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Point of order. Council Chair Rapozo: You have to acknowledge the point. She needs to stop when I call the point of order. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Council Chair. Council Chair Rapozo: I am calling the point on the Public Hearings section, not the Testimony section. The public hearing testimony is very clear. "Councilmembers shall reserve their opinions questions, and arguments for the appropriate Council or Committee meeting." Councilmember Yukimura: These are not opinions or arguments. Council Chair Rapozo: I have the floor. The public hearing rule is what I am talking about. My point of order is on Rule No. 12, not Rule No. 11. She is citing No. 11. We are in a public hearing today. The public hearing rule is clear. "Councilmembers shall reserve their opinions..." shall, "...reserve their questions, and arguments for the appropriate Council or Committee meeting." So, that is the rule I am raising, that is the point. You need to rule on that. If that rule is correct, then she needs to stop any further questions because that is what the rule states. Councilmember Yukimura: Then I... Councilmember Hooser: Question. Can I ask a clarifying question? Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Councilmember Hooser. Councilmember Hooser: I have a clarifying question. The rule on the public hearing question says we need reserve our questions for when it is on the agenda. The rule on the agenda questions we are not allowed to ask questions. So, if you want to really get silly about this whole thing, that is what the rule says. If you are going to say we cannot ask her a question now, we have to wait until the Committee Meeting, but the Committee Meeting rule says we cannot ask a question. Councilmember Yukimura said she wants her to rephrase her comments. I think that is a reasonable question. It follows the rules because we are not allowed to ask questions because of the rule that you four (4) passed. Council Chair Rapozo: No. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Councilmember Kagawa. Councilmember Kagawa: Point of order Council Chair Rapozo: Let me follow-up on that because it does not say that they are not allowed to ask. They are allowed to ask them to restate parts of the testimony. I do not like this when they are misstating what the rule is. Councilmember Yukimura: Okay. PUBLIC HEARING 7 DECEMBER 2, 2015 BILL NO. 2606 Council Chair Rapozo: Do you know what? That is the rule. The point that I made, which you have to rule on right now, is the point of order on Rule No. 12, and that is what I want to hear. It is irrelevant what Rule No. 11 says because we are in a public hearing today. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Councilmember Kagawa. Councilmember Kagawa: Well, we have two (2) members that feel one way, we have Council Chair Rapozo that feels one way, and I call for the vote on that. Who is correct? Councilmember Yukimura: We are entitled to arguments about the point before the Chair rules on the point. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Councilmember Yukimura. Councilmember Yukimura: Thank you. My questions are not opinions. They are questions or arguments. I mean, they are not arguments or opinions. They are legitimate questions that would clarify what the testifier has said. I believe Rule No. 10 does apply to testimony at public hearings. Council Chair Rapozo: Rule No. 10 is Certificates. Councilmember Yukimura: Rule No. 11(c)(10) is a rule that applies to public hearings. Council Chair Rapozo: And I disagree. I think it is clear. Councilmember Yukimura: Rule No. 11(a), "At a Council or Committee meeting, or at a public hearing, written or oral testimony shall be accepted." Then it talks about what kind of oral testimony is allowed. (10) says, "The Chair may allow Councilmembers to ask speakers to repeat or rephrase statements made during their testimony..." Council Chair Rapozo: Mr. Chair, I would ask for a five (5) minute recess. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Yes. Let us take a five (5) minute recess. There being no objections, the public hearing was recessed at 1:50 p.m. There begin no objections, the public hearing was called back to order at 1:54 p.m., and proceeded as follows: Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Welcome back. Again, I think the point of order was called by Council Chair Rapozo. I agree with him. If you folks want to challenge the ruling, we can vote on it. It says, "The Chair may allow Councilmembers to ask speakers to repeat or rephrase statements..." It says, "The Chair may allow." Right now, I am saying there is other means to ask questions if' you need to ask questions. We have gotten E-mail testimony, the speaker is still here, we still have Committee Meetings coming up, and I think... PUBLIC HEARING 8 DECEMBER 2, 2015 BILL NO. 2606 Councilmember Yukimura: But Mr. Chair, we cannot ask it at Committee Meetings either. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: You can ask her to repeat or rephrase. Councilmember Yukimura: And that is what I wanted to do, but you are not allowing it. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Again... Councilmember Yukimura: Anyway, Mr. Chair, that was not the point that was raised. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: The point of order was that "Public hearings are held to receive the testimony from the public. Councilmembers shall reserve their opinions, questions, and arguments for the appropriate Council or Committee meeting" and that is what we are going to do. Councilmember Yukimura: But Mr. Chair, the rule about testimony says that the Chair may allow Councilmembers to ask speakers. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Again, that is the ruling... Councilmember Yukimura: So, you... Committee Chair Kaneshiro: That is the ruling I am making as the Chair. If you want to challenge it, we can vote on it. It is up to you. But I really want to continue to move on. Councilmember Yukimura: Which point are you ruling on? Council Chair Rapozo: There was only one (1) point made. One (1) point of order that was made, that was Rule No. 12. When you make a point, you have to state the rule, which I did. Councilmember Yukimura: Okay. Council Chair Rapozo: Rule No. 12 says no questions during public hearings. That is the rule. Mr. Chair, you have ruled. Accept it or challenge it. Councilmember Yukimura: Then I want to ask the Parliamentarian to rule whether subsection 10 of Rule No. 11 applies. Council Chair Rapozo: Rule No. 10 was not the point. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: The point of order right now is on Conduct of Public Hearings. Councilmember Yukimura: I know, but it says no questions. However, Rule No. 11(10) does allow questions to rephrase. If you are ruling under Rule No. 12, then it is allowed under Rule No. 11(10). Council Chair Rapozo: Then you need to make a... PUBLIC HEARING 9 DECEMBER 2, 2015 BILL NO. 2606 Councilmember Yukimura: Questions to rephrase. Council Chair Rapozo: You need to make a point on Rule No. 10. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: The point of order we are talking about is the point of order that the Chair made. Councilmember Yukimura: Okay, fine. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: ...on Rule No. 12(e). Councilmember Yukimura: Then I challenge the decision of the Chair. Councilmember Yukimura moved to challenge the decision of the Chair. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Do we take a vote on it? You need a second. Councilmember Hooser seconded the motion. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: We will take a roll call vote. Council Chair Rapozo: Yes. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: If you vote "aye," then we are voting for her to be able to ask questions. Councilmember Yukimura: No. If we vote "aye" we are saying that the Chair's decision on Rule No. 12(e) is correct. Councilmember Hooser: Is correct? Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Is correct. Councilmember Kagawa: So, the Chair is correct. Councilmember Yukimura: I do not know. But that is the rule we are going to be voting on. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Okay. If you vote "aye" on this vote, you are saying that the ruling we made is correct, that the "Public hearings are held to receive testimony from the public. Councilmember shall reserve their opinions, questions, and arguments for the appropriate Council or Committee meeting" and we are going to hold off on the questions. PUBLIC HEARING 10 DECEMBER 2, 2015 BILL NO. 2606 The motion to uphold the Chair's decision on Council Rule No. 12(e) was then put, and carried by the following vote: FOR MOTION: Chock, Kagawa, Kaneshiro, Kuali`i, Rapozo TOTAL — 5*, AGAINST MOTION: Hooser, Yukimura TOTAL — 2, EXCUSED & NOT VOTING: None TOTAL— 0, RECUSED & NOT VOTING: None TOTAL— 0. (*Pursuant to Rule No. 5(b) of the Rules of the Council of the County of Kauai, Councilmember Chock was noted as silent, but shall be recorded as an affirmative for the motion.) Mr. Sato: Five (5) ayes. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Okay. Councilmember Yukimura: Mr. Chair, I want to ask the testifier a question under Rule No. 11(10). Councilmember Kagawa: I object, Mr. Chair. The point of order is that I disagree with her. Councilmember Yukimura: Rules are not governed by disagreement. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Again... Councilmember Kagawa: Let us take a vote on it. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: I am making the decision as the Chair, and we are going to move on. Councilmember Yukimura: So, you are not allowing Councilmembers to ask the speaker to repeat or rephrase statements? Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Again, I think you have taken complete advantage of this whole thing by asking her to... Councilmember Yukimura: I am just asking... Committee Chair Kaneshiro: ...restate her entire testimony. We went through this whole argument. Councilmember Yukimura: I am not going to ask her to restate her whole testimony then. I will take the correction and I will ask her to rephrase certain statements or repeat. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: But you said you did not even know what statements you wanted her to rephrase. Councilmember Yukimura: That is part of the problem, but I figured out how to do it. PUBLIC HEARING 11 DECEMBER 2, 2015 BILL NO. 2606 Committee Chair Kaneshiro: I think... Council Chair Rapozo: Mr. Chair. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: I am just going to move on. Council Chair Rapozo: Thank you. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: We are going to move on. If you want to challenge that decision, then we can move on. Councilmember Yukimura: I do challenge the decision of the Chair. Council Chair Rapozo: Mr. Chair, this is one of the most embarrassing days I have had on this Council since 2002. I made a point of order. If she cannot address and follow the rules, then that is not my problem. It is not the public's problem. Councilmember Yukimura: Mr. Chair, I am trying to follow the rules. Council Chair Rapozo: I made a point of order. I have the floor. I made a point of order. Rule No. 12 governs today's hearing. You made a ruling. It is done. Let us move on. Councilmember Yukimura: I challenge the decision of the Chair on this rule. Councilmember Kuali`i: Done. Council Chair Rapozo: It is done. You made a ruling. She cannot accept it. We need to move on or I am going to ask that she be removed from the room. Councilmember Yukimura: And I ask that we follow our rules. Councilmember Kagawa: Second. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: I am following the rules. Councilmember Yukimura: Which is... Committee Chair Kaneshiro: I have the discretion and we are going to move on. Councilmember Yukimura: I have a right to appeal the decision of the Chair, and you have to go through it. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Councilmember Yukimura, we are going to move forward. I am sorry. We are going to move forward. Anyone else in the audience wishing to testify after that? ADOLF BEFURT: Are you folks not ashamed of the way you behaved? PUBLIC HEARING 12 DECEMBER 2, 2015 BILL NO. 2606 Council Chair Rapozo: Yes I am, sir. Councilmember Yukimura: The reason... Mr. Befurt: (Inaudible.) Councilmember Kagawa: You have to sit down. Sit down. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Sorry. Mr. Befurt: Why? Councilmember Kagawa: You cannot speak now. Mr. Befurt: Not you. Councilmember Kagawa: Sit down please. Mr. Befurt: I have to listen to you (inaudible) all my life. Councilmember Kuali`i: Recess. Councilmember Kagawa: Do you want to be removed? Council Chair Rapozo: Somebody go please. Councilmember Kagawa: Call the cops already or something. Get him out. Councilmember Hooser: Committee Chair Kaneshiro, you are in charge of the meeting. Mr. Befurt: And I have the right to speak. Councilmember Hooser: Tell him to shut up too. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: No. You folks... Mr. Befurt: The way you folks... Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Sorry. Mr. Befurt: ...behave like little children. Councilmember Kagawa: We cannot behave like Bill No. 2491. No. Councilmember Hooser: Oh give me a break Councilmember Kagawa. Councilmember Kagawa: That does not happen here. Not like your son swearing at us. Councilmember Hooser: Oh, bite me. Chair? PUBLIC HEARING 13 DECEMBER 2, 2015 BILL NO. 2606 Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Recess. There being no objections, the public hearing was recessed at 2:00 p.m. There being no objections, the public hearing was called back to order at 2:02 p.m., and proceeded as follows: (Councilmember Kagawa was noted as not present.) Committee Chair Kaneshiro: We are back. Anyone else wishing to testify on Bill No. 2606. Your second time. (Councilmember Kagawa was noted as present.) Mr. Lindsey: Steve Lindsey once again. I talked to Councilmember Hooser. He stated from the Bill, the percentage and how it would be computed, which is based on the Consumer Price Index (CPI) in Honolulu. I think that should go on the record. Thank you. Committee Chair Kaneshiro: Thank you. Anyone else in the audience wishing to testify on this matter. There being no further testimony, the public hearing adjourned at 2:03 p.m. Respectfully submitted, S :TTK. S• 0 Deputy County Clerk :aa