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HomeMy WebLinkAbout 02/27/2019 Public Works & Veterans Services Committee minutes MINUTES PUBLIC WORKS & VETERANS SERVICES COMMITTEE February 27, 2019 A meeting of the Public Works & Veterans Services Committee of the Council of the County of Kaua`i, State of Hawai`i, was called to order by Ross Kagawa, Chair, at the Council Chambers, 4396 Rice Street, Suite 201, Lihu`e, Kauai, on Wednesday, February 27, 2019, at 8:30 a.m., after which the following Members answered the call of the roll: Honorable Mason K. Chock Honorable Felicia Cowden Honorable Luke A. Evslin Honorable KipuKai Kuali`i Honorable Ross Kagawa Honorable Arthur Brun, Ex-Officio Member (present at 8:34 a.m.) Honorable Arryl Kaneshiro, Ex-Officio Member Minutes of the January 30, 2019 Public Works &Veterans Services Committee Meeting. Upon motion duly made by Councilmember Kuali`i, seconded by Councilmember Chock, and unanimously carried, the Minutes of the January 30, 2019 Public Works & Veterans Services Committee Meeting was approved. There being no objections, Bill No. 2612 was taken out of order. The Committee proceeded on its agenda item as follows: Bill No. 2612 A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE TO AMEND CHAPTER 14, KAUAI COUNTY CODE 1987, AS AMENDED, RELATING TO THE PLUMBING CODE (This item was deferred to May 1, 2019.) Councilmember Chock moved to receive Bill No. 2612 for the record, seconded by Councilmember Kuali`i. Committee Chair Kagawa: It has been moved and seconded to receive. The reason why I am asking for a motion to receive is that we have come to an agreement as far as the Public Works & Veterans Services Committee Chair and the Mayor as he got involved, due to having some testimonies sent in of concern from both ends. We had the Plumbers Union, who had some concerns about the International Plumbing Code (IPC) continuing to be in the Plumbing Code. We have the General Contractors, the Laborers' Union, and other unions that would like to keep the IPC in as it has been in for the past fifteen (15) years. The Uniform Plumbing Code (UPC) is the one that is mainly used on Kaua`i. The IPC is rarely used. I do not know statewide if it is the same way, I assume so. There are thirty-seven (37) states that PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 2 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 have the IPC in their Codes, but it is just where I think the question some have from the plumbing side is that their training and everything is based on the UPC. Most of the permits that are pulled and the jobs that are done are following the UPC. Why have the IPC involved? It is up to the State Building Code Council. They are the people in the industry and on the Board, so we rely on them for their recommendations. They have recommended leaving in it, but due to some concerns from the plumbing side, the Mayor felt best that we receive this item for now in not picking a side on this battle and just waiting until it kicks in by August of 2020. What would happen is basically, by receiving it, we are not going to be moving ahead of the other islands, including City and County of Honolulu, Maui, and Hilo. Therefore, we will not be having something that they do not have. We would just be on the same track as the rest of the islands and we will wait until that time, unless we have an urgent need to amend this Bill, have this Bill come before us again, and see improvements. We always talk about having a "win-win" situation where there is compromise and working together, and I think that we are not at this point right now. We are going to receive it and I am hoping that in the future, maybe the Plumbing Union can help the State Building Code Council to, again, find that middle point of compromise where it will be easy for us to say "yes." Is there any discussion, members? Are there any questions? Is there anyone from the public wishing to speak on this item? I will suspend the rules. There being no objections, the rules were suspended to take public testimony. KIKA BUKOSKI: Thank you, Council Chair Kaneshiro, Vice Chair Kagawa, and members. My name is Kika Bukoski. I am representing the Plumbers & Fitters Local 675. First of all, I just want to thank you folks for taking up this really important issue. Most of all, thank you for your patience. I know that has been a Bill that has been under consideration for some time now, and it is important to us. We went through some transitions internally and appreciate your folks' indulgence in giving us an opportunity to come in and speak. We have been in contact with Committee Chair Kagawa and the Administration. We support the position that you folks are contemplating at this moment. However, we did want to, for the record, note our continuing concern for allowing alternate Codes in lieu of the Uniform Plumbing Code. Just a little bit of history, this is my first time before this body, but it is not my first time on the island of Kaua`i. I am a Kaua`i boy. My family is from Koloa, it is called the Bukoski Compound by Saint Raphael's Church, so I have a lot of aloha and kuleana for this island, its people, and for the safety. The reason I bring this up is so that you folks know that when I am here testifying on behalf of the plumbers, I am not just testifying on behalf of the plumbers. I am testifying with the fact that in the back of my mind, I also understand that I have a very big responsibility to my family; my father, a retired policeman, a retired dispatcher for the County of Kaua`i; and others who have served this County. I just want you to know that it is not just words and is not taken seriously when we testify before you, because we understand the responsibility and the burden you folks have for serving the island of Kaua`i as well. Also just a little bit of a background, although I have been with the Plumbers Union for a very brief time, I am not unfamiliar with this issue. I served in the State Legislature in the early 2000s and we struggled with this issue back then when we were contemplating the State Building Code Council. I served as the Executive Director for the Hawai`i Building and Construction Trades Council, which represents sixteen (16) of the seventeen (17) construction Unions PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 3 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 across the State of Hawai`i. In the last couple of years, I also served as a public policy advocate for the Office of Hawaiian Affairs (OHA). Committee Chair Kagawa: You can continue. I am going to consider him as expert testimony for this item. Mr. Bukoski: Thank you. I appreciate it and I will try to make this as brief as possible. As Murphy's Law would have it, I have a bag full of files, folders, and documents and I forgot the one (1) piece of paper that had all of my cheat notes on it, so I am kind of winging it at this point. Just a little bit of brief history, and I am sure you folks might be already be aware of this, but the UPC has been the exclusive Code of Kaua`i since 1965. In 2007, when the State Building Code Council was actually formed by the Legislature, they intentionally...the original bill contemplated the International Plumbing Code, but the Legislature found in their wisdom, to take the International Plumbing Code out, remove it from the Bill, and they inserted the Uniform Plumbing Code as the State Plumbing Code. It was actually the language was "shall include the latest edition of the Uniform Plumbing Code." There have been several amendments. In 2013, the language was stricken that said "the latest edition," and language was put in to say "based on." The State Building Code Council also recognizes that the State Plumbing Code should be based upon the Uniform Plumbing Code and any amendments that the County chooses to enhance or to improve on that Building Code. Some of the comments made by proponents of the IPC—we have no issue with the IPC, but what our concern and our question is why do we need two (2) Codes when one (1) Code can already accomplish what the County of Kaua`i is trying to accomplish in improved efficiencies, improved methods, improved devices, alternative methods, and alternative devices? All of these provisions are already included in the Uniform Plumbing Code and can be exercised by the County at any time, so we do not understand why the IPC needs to be in. The other concern we have is that as you folks know, the Plumbing Code goes through a tremendous amount of vetting, review, and amendments. That is why we are all sitting here today. However, the way the provision is written, I think it is Section 301.3, allowing the IPC to be used in lieu of, so basically, replacing the Uniform Plumbing Code in its entirety with the IPC. The IPC, in contrast, has not been vetted, has not been amended, and has not been reviewed by any body; the State Building Code Council, this County, and yet, we are going to allow a Uniform Plumbing Code that has been vetted and that has been in place since 1965 to be completely supplanted and replaced with a Code that we really do not have any idea what it intends to do, what it can do, and what it would allow. We have concerns that it might allow unlicensed plumbing work. I want to also note that in 2013, I believe it was Ordinance No. 951, it not only adopted the latest edition of the Plumbing Code, but it also repealed, removed, and deleted Article 3, which spoke specifically to Chapter 14 and the qualifications of a licensed plumber to do plumbing work. We do not understand why we are removing the requirement to have qualified, licensed plumbers on plumbing work, and then introducing the opportunity to supplant an entire Plumbing Code that was vetted, reviewed, amended, and given every opportunity to improve to do the things that you folks want do, like venting and single stack. It is all possible within the UPC, so we do not understand why there is so much opposition to just using one (1) Code. I think, and I tend not to try to disparage anyone, but he is your official Building Code representative for the island of Kaua`i. This gentleman, and I can quote him in a discussion with the Department of Water Conservation Resources, that he in a discussion to improve and utilize the Green • PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 4 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 Plumbing & Mechanical Code Supplement (Green Plumbing Code), which is a family which is a family to the UPC, the UPC and International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials (IAPMO) who publishes the UPC, that he actually, and I had a quote, but it is on the paper that I did not bring. He said that it does not make sense to have two (2) Codes because it would cause too much burden upon the County and upon its inspectors, and that is just two (2) sections from the Green Plumbing Code. Here, we are talking about an entire Code, a book that is maybe about two (2) inches thick. We do not understand the logic where it applies in one sense, but does not apply in others. We try to take a consistent, rational approach to things. We have looked at some of the material of the proponents to the IPC, we tried to understand where they are coming from, and if we can improve on our end or even support the IPC, we would do it if it made sense. But at this point, we just do not understand why it is so needed when we have two (2) sections, Section 301.2, which allows for alternative methods, techniques, processes, or devices to be used, if approved by your inspectors and your authorized representatives; or alternative engineered design, which is what I have heard has been used here on some of your hotels to put in Air Admittance Valves (AAV), studor vents. We argue that you can still do that under the UPC without having two (2) Plumbing Codes. Now, why is plumbing so important? It is just water. We are just flushing it down the toilet. It is not a big deal. Well, I will tell you what, there are reports and although it is dated, but in a ten (10) year period, there were instances of cross-contamination, thirty-three (33) to thirty-five (35) instances of cross-contamination in a ten (10) year period. For those of you who do not know what "cross-contamination" is, you have graywater, dirty water, and chemical water that is being mixed with drinking, potable water, and that is due to error. In 2003, Hong Kong, sixty-five (65) people died from severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) and that was due to dry vents. It is documented. It is directly due to inaccurate installation of a venting system, which keeps the sewer gases out of living spaces. (Councilmember Brun was noted as not present.) Mr. Bukoski: Sixty-five (65) people died and three hundred twenty-one (321) were hospitalized. That is because of plumbing errors. That is why plumbing is so important. In 2011, I am sure you folks would remember, there was a call to have to boil your water in Kilauea because there was irrigation water that was found to be mixed in with some of your drinking water. These things happen, and it is because the Code is not followed or you do not have licensed, qualified plumbers doing the work. Our plumbers go through approximately five (5) years or ten thousand (10,000) hours of classroom work and practical work. They have to take an entrance examination (exam) even to be accepted to show that they have a competency level to deal with some of the work that they are going to be doing. Then, they have to go through this program, take an exam to be licensed, and every three (3) years, they have to be recertified and take another recertification exam. Plumbing is very involved. It is similar to your Fire Code and Electrical Code. If you make a mistake, it is not something that you can just put in a change order to fix. If you make a mistake, someone can die. I could go through the individual cases of cross-contaminations where there have been instances of people dying aside from the SARS incident in Hong Kong in 2003. But I can go on. I know you folks have already decided what you are going to do. I apologize the testimony I submitted online last night, I was working on it. I brought hard copies for you folks today. I am available to talk story with any and all of you. I do have a proposed compromise position. What PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 5 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 is happening now is, and you folks are policymakers, so words make a difference, right? When they say that it is more "cost-effective" to use one (1) Code over another, I think that is not necessarily being deceptive, but it is not necessarily telling the entire truth. Some of the testimony that you might see in front of you supporting the IPC is referring to the 2015 IPC, but yet, we are still referring to the 2006 Plumbing Code. There is a disparity there. We are not looking at things apples-to-apples. When they look at cost analysis and review costs of UPC versus IPC, they are using the next...it is like using a 2018 Chevy Silverado versus a 1999 Chevy Silverado, and you know the 1999 is going to get about ten(10) miles per gallon and the 2018 is going to get about eighteen (18) miles per gallon. It is not apples-to-apples. What we are asking, we are compromising, in this one case, we do not want to set precedent because we are still concerned with the IPC because we do not understand it enough. I hope to talk to some of these gentlemen to understand it. What we are asking to do is level the playing field. If we are referring to the 2006 Plumbing Code, then remove the language that says "latest edition" and put in "2006," or if we can agree to the 2012 Plumbing Code, then put in "2012 edition of the IPC" so that it is apples-to-apples. If that is not agreeable, then we would like to be on the same level as the IPC. Take out "2012 Plumbing Code" and insert the "latest edition of' so that we are comparing apples-to-apples. That is all we are asking for, and we would be opened to leaving the IPC language as it is in Bill No. 2612. Committee Chair Kagawa: Are you done? Mr. Bukoski: No, but I think I better stop. Committee Chair Kagawa: Well, we have some questions, and this is what I am going to suggest. What I am going to suggest is that we continue to receive it today and I am going to send this language of this proposed amendment back to the Administration for their review. If they feel like we should amend it, then it should be a slam-dunk the next time it comes around, but we have until August 2020. Again, that is why this got held up. He brought up major concerns that affected me and it was before Kika. By this recent election, Kika folks came in. With the previous Administration, I had worked with and I had gotten similar statements, which concerned me, and that is why this Bill had gotten held up. I wanted to make sure that this decision that we made was the right one, and I continue to feel like we need more working between the Plumbers Union and the State Building Code Council, as well as our Building Division and Public Works. Again, I do not want to debate the merits of both sides of some of the allegations that are made here today. I think it would be better vetted by engineers and professionals that know what they are talking about. Councilmember Cowden, do you have a question? Councilmember Cowden: I have a question, and just to state a concern or an interest. Committee Chair Kagawa: You can ask whatever you want. Councilmember Cowden: The community that I live in is Kilauea and it is one of the few areas on the island that we are told that we do not have enough water to create new water meters. When I look at the 2012 UPC, it can have graywater systems and water catchment. We have a lot of rain up there, so it gives us that opportunity to replace yard watering and whatnot. The type of things that PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 6 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 we are not allowed to have that is very important to the community is a laundromat, for example. We do not have a laundromat on the entire North Shore. Kilauea is the place to put it because of high how we are for the water treatment plant that would be associated with it. When I see this is really a 2012 Plumbing Code and here we are 2019, this is a piece in it, but I think it would make sense in our community. I have a little bit of angst to think "well, we are going to wait another year and a half' because we are very desperately trying to figure out ways that we can create affordable housing. I know that changing this would not make a difference right away, but the fact that we have held that aside for a long time is one. Then, just another question/comment is when you are saying we need to make sure we have licensed plumbers, how many licensed plumbers are on Kaua`i? Do you know? Mr. Bukoski: I do not have the exact number, but I am guessing approximately one hundred fifty (150). Councilmember Cowden: Do you think that is enough plumbers? Mr. Bukoski: If you need more, we can definitely work on it. Councilmember Cowden: I will tell you that it is near impossible to get a licensed plumber to do a small job. You call and call and call, and if it is not a big job, you are not going to get it. Mr. Bukoski: The way our system works is we go through licensed contractors. The plumbers individually have to be licensed, but we go through licensed contractors. We do not dispatch workers directly from our hall, but I will take your concern back and express it. I do want to address your other point though. The 2006 Code, if I recall correctly, has graywater and has catchment in it. It was amended out by your County. Councilmember Cowden: So we could amend it back in? Mr. Bukoski: You could, as well as the 2012, those two (2) appendices were amended out. Graywater is a part of the UPC, it has always been part of the UPC for non-potable catchment systems as well, and it was amended out in this version of Bill No. 2612. We would love to have it back in. We are not understanding why it was taken out because there were other areas and appendices that were amended out that provide sustainable practices that would increase your efficiencies here on Kaua`i. These are the kind of issues that we want to discuss with your Public Works official. Councilmember Cowden: Okay. If you could take it back to your team, just simple households that need something fixed to try and have that be available. When they work through a big contractor, if you are building a hotel or brand new house, you are going to get a plumber. If you need a small repair, they are very busy and are not available. That is the best I can tell. Thank you. Mr. Bukoski: Thank you very much. I appreciate the question. PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 7 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 Committee Chair Kagawa: I can help you. I can find plumbers. I have no problem finding a plumber. You just need to have the money to pay the plumber. That is the problem. Councilmember Chock. Councilmember Chock: Thank you, Committee Chair Kagawa. Thank you, Kika, for coming. This goes into effect in a year, a little more than a year. At the State-level in the time between that it goes into effect, in terms of amending at the State-level, what are the opportunities for that to occur? Mr. Bukoski: The disappointing thing I think for all of us is that from now until 2020, you folks are still going to be subject to the 2006 Plumbing Codes, which is unfortunate because there are a lot of lost opportunity there. But right now, the 2018 Uniform Plumbing Code has been recently presented to the State Building Code Council and is under review. We understand that there has been a requested amendment made by the General Contractors Association to not only...it actually escalates the use of the IPC besides just as an alternative method or alternative Code, but actually places it side-by-side next to the UPC, which would actually exacerbate the issue. I have not had a chance to really review the proposed amendments in great detail, but we intend to be at the table, at the State Building Code Council, and voice our concerns hoping that we can find some kind of compromise. There have been some memorandums and some Attorney General's (AG) opinions that have come out of the State Building Code Council, which we have concerns with. For the record, I am not an attorney. I do not have a law degree, but I can read and I think I have a fair amount of intelligence. We do not agree with the AG's opinion and we are going to voice our concerns at the State Building Code Council. The legislative intent was clear when they passed Senate Bill No. 2895 in 2007. It was clear, they removed the International Plumbing Code and specifically replaced it with the Uniform Plumbing Code as the State Building Code law. Committee Chair Kagawa: Are there any further questions, members? Seeing none, thank you Kika. Mr. Bukoski: I appreciate it. Thank you for your folks' time. Committee Chair Kagawa: I will take your suggestion to the Administration and we will carbon copy the State Building Code Council. Mr. Bukoski: I will reach out to all of your offices, I apologize for not doing so prior to this, but I am available twenty-four/seven (24/7) to discuss this issue. Thank you. Committee Chair Kagawa: He does answer his phone. RYAN KOBAYASHI: Good morning, Council Chair Kaneshiro and Committee Chair Kagawa. Ryan Kobayashi, Laborers Union. First of all, I would like start to off by saying this is...I know this has been characterized in some ways as a battle between the Plumbers Union and Laborers Union. Let me clear the air first off. Laborers do not do plumbing, we just do not. You plug the toilet over here and you call me. I do not know. You have to call him. We are not necessarily opposed to the UPC, because from our understanding of it, the difference between the IPC and UPC, there are about eight-five to ninety percent (85-90%) similar. I have submitted PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 8 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 written testimony as well to illustrate some of the differences. I have reached out to some of you, not all of you and I apologize for that as well, to illustrate the differences. Mainly what we are here for and I am not a resident of Kaua`i. I am from Honolulu. What we try do here, is we try to look out for the building industry in general, the construction industry in general. There are instances, differences, between the UPC and IPC that the UPC can be about fifty percent (50%) more in cost. With that, the studies say there are generally no health and safety differences between the two (2). Again, let me reiterate, these two (2) Codes for the most part are very, very similar. Where the IPC differs, again, is in the cost-savings that can be realized. We have problems, especially on this island, Honolulu and throughout the State, homelessness problems. I know you folks have affordable housing programs and things like that that can be used. IPC can be used to make these projects easier to pencil out for the County or for even businesses that are looking to redo their properties. As long as it is all-or-nothing, either you are going to use all UPC or you are going use all IPC, right?We have no preference. It is up to the project owner. If it is a County-sponsored project, then the County, you can choose to try to save money where you can realize it on the IPC, or if you are more comfortable using the UPC, you can do that as well. We feel that the County of Kaua`i was kind of ahead of its time because this IPC provision has been in for the about the past fifteen (15) years or so. You folks have the foresight. I was not here during that time and I assume a lot of you were not here when that was being heard as well, but your predecessors probably saw the benefit in having both. Like I said, we are not here saying "remove the UPC." We feel that you folks are already are in the compromise. You folks are allowing both to be used. Leave it up to the project owner to decide. On the IPC side, the mechanical engineer is the one who stamps and certifies it. We understand that there was some concern from plumbing inspectors that they would have to learn a new Code. That is not true. It is completely not true. As long as there is a stamp on that plan, that plan becomes what the plumbing inspector, when you look at a wall that is what he analyzes it against. He does not have to open up a Code book because it has already been certified by the mechanical engineer, and they have been doing that for the past fifteen (15) years. Well, I do not know the true facts of how many projects use IPC versus UPC on the island of Kaua`i, but I think having that option there to use both, as I said, benefits the County of Kaua`i and project owners around the island. With that, like my counterpart from the Plumbers Union, I will be reaching out to the rest of you as well too. But if you have any questions, you are free to contact me at any time. Committee Chair Kagawa: Are there any questions for Ryan? Councilmember Chock. Councilmember Chock: Just to confirm for the record your stance on the current Bill, for, against, or as amended. Mr. Kobayashi: Our stance is we are for the current Bill minus any floor amendments. Committee Chair Kagawa: So that is why the Committee cannot move forward. It is difficult to amend right now. If we follow that route, I think it is best that we send it back to the Administration, they can talk with the State Building Code Council, and see, because it seems to make sense. If the IPC is 2012, then why not use the 2012 Plumbing Code? There must be a reason and the State Building Code Council spends a lot of hours on it and I do not know the answer to why the PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 9 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 State Building Code Council came up with their final decision. That is why it is better sometimes rather than pull the trigger, to slow down a little bit. Go ahead, continue. Councilmember Chock: So, the recommendation here is...are you okay? Mr. Kobayashi: Yes, I think I am okay. Councilmember Chock: ...is to receive the Bill today. Mr. Kobayashi: Yes. Councilmember Chock: Alright, which means what I am hearing is there is a recommendation that you might want to go back to the drawing board here. What are you advocating for at this point? Mr. Kobayashi: For right now, it maintains the status quo.We believe that the status quo is something that, like I said, we are laborers. All we want to do is try to keep the cost of building down. If we work, operators work, masons work, plumbers work and electricians work. Laborers are generally the general contractors. If we start to drive the cost of building up, we run into a problem. Margins are thin a lot of times. If the project cannot pencil, whether it is for developer or for the County, that is the determination between whether the project goes or not. From our perspective, if say the County of Kauai sponsors an affordable housing project and you folks can pencil it out, UPC or IPC, it does not matter. It is fine. Generally, our contractors will be the ones who build it. If you folks can pencil, our contractor's work. If our contractors work, our members work and generally, the subcontractors will work, too. If it comes down to really tight margins and you folks are going to choose the IPC route because you can now make it pencil, the same people are going to work on that job. The general contractors will probably work, we will call the plumbers and the plumbers will work. We are not talking about using unlicensed plumbers. Our generals are going to generally use unionized all the way, so it is not about taking away work. For us, it is about projects being able to pencil out in the end. This is an option. The IPC is an option and that option has been here the past fifteen (15) years, approximately, give or take. Again, those are all general statements, but it is generally how it works. Committee Chair Kagawa: Are there any further questions for Ryan? Seeing none, next. TYLER DYLAN: Good morning, Committee Chair and Council. Thank you for the opportunity to address you this morning. My name is Tyler Dylan. I am Executive Vice President of Layton Construction. Some of you may know we have been on Kauai for fourteen (14) years. We are very proud to consider this our Hawaii home. I also represent the General Contractors Association (GCA). I have been appointed to represent GCA on the State Building Code Council, so I have specific knowledge of what the State Building Code Council has intended with its 2012 UPC amendment. I wanted to make sure that I had the opportunity to speak to you and share that today. The intent of the State Building Code Council in adopting the amendment that allows the provision of IPC to be used was really to preserve an option for any building consumers; governments and homeowners. The reason why PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 10 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 that is important is because we have an affordable housing crisis in Hawaii. In large part, because of high construction costs. So there are clear advantages to IPC that allow reduction in material and labor to be used if you take advantage of the provisions in IPC. UPC also limits what is determined an acceptable plumbing fixture to only those that bear the UP symbol. This is a symbol that IAPMO, who is the author of UPC, basically sells to plumbing manufacturers. When the first kind of comments or question that you have to ask ourselves are why are they opposed to this option, seeking so hard to eliminate an option? I have to give you some national facts behind what is really going on between IAPMO, the publisher of UPC and the International Code Council, or the publisher of IPC. It is, in fact, a little bit of battle of two (2) publishers. IAPMO is significantly influenced by both the United Association (UA), the Plumbers Union, and by manufacturers of pipe, fittings, and all things that go into plumbing in a building. Over the last fifteen (15) years, IPC has expanded its adoption and use across the nation. So currently, thirty five (35) states. It is in conjunction use or almost exclusive use. Interestingly enough, the Department of Defense (DOD) has adopted IPC as their Code for use in all federal DOD facilities even in the State of Hawaii. Just last year, a study was performed to identify what would the cost-savings be if IPC was used in all areas where UPC still was a holdout? The findings of that study were that approximately eight hundred million dollars ($800,000,000) annually were in play, roughly four hundred million dollars ($400,000,000) in increased amount of piping, fixtures, and appurtenances used in plumbing and then another two hundred million dollars ($200,000,000) in labor, and two hundred million dollars ($200,000,000) in overhead and profit. So that is really what is at stake here. This is a battleground, right? This is really special interest politics at play, and it is being played out in places like this, local Counties and States where UPC is still in force. The real question that you are being asked to is just whether we preserve the option to building owners to keep IPC as an available option. At the Building Code Council, we felt it was important because of the concerns that have been presented about inspection and the burden that it would place on local inspection departments, so we required that if IPC were to be used, building owners would have to specifically request it. The mechanical engineer responsible for designing the building would have to request it and would have to design the building according to that. That would make it simple to understand what inspectors should be inspecting. They would not have to go and consult and learn a new Code. First, I would like to say that I have a lot of respect for Kika. I have a lot of respect for the Plumbers Union. They are all great people and this really not their issue because there are thousands of licensed Union plumbers across the nation and a lot of them work every day installing under IPC. In fact, the United Association's training programs in those jurisdictions focus on training to IPC. I think unfortunately, there are some influencers at IAPMO within the manufacturing community who produce plumbing fixtures and pipes that are really fighting hard for this. I do not think it is appropriate for any agency or government to basically enforce a monopoly on their behalf. I urge you to consider to keep the amendment as drafted by the State Building Code Council and adopt the 2012 UPC. Councilmember Cowden: What is IAPMO? Mr. Dylan: The International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials. PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 11 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 Committee Chair Kagawa: Are there any further questions? Go ahead, Councilmember Evslin. Councilmember Evslin: Do you feel that the 2012 Code could result in cost-savings over our existing 2006? Mr. Dylan: I think there is cost-savings that exist in the 2012 Code and there is also expanded, newer technology and reduced basically fixture unit or water consumption use that is in 2012 that Kaua`i could benefit from immediately. Committee Chair Kagawa: For the record, the reason why I took off the timer on these gentlemen is that they all sit on the State Building Code Council. Thank you for being here. I have a burning question though. Mr. Dylan: Yes. Committee Chair Kagawa: We just had a meeting with the Building Division who oversees the permits. They mentioned that the IPC on Kaua`i is rarely used. That was the word. An obvious one came up about a major hotel in Po`ipu that did recently use it that by using it, said that they have significant cost-savings and would have significant maintenance savings in the future. If it is a lot cheaper, as you mentioned, then why is it still rarely used here and why is the UPC being used predominately on Kaua`i and I assume many of the other islands? Has Hawai`i not caught on to these techniques? Mr. Dylan: The UPC has been used for a long time. Mechanical engineers are used to it and honestly, from a contractor's perspective, the last thing that we want to do in any jurisdiction whether it is Kaua`i, O`ahu, or Maui is create an additional stumbling block to get through the permitting process. There is confusion that exists with some building departments. There is confusion in the engineering field about what is the easy path or what is the best path? Most people pick the easy path because it is what they did last time. There is still a challenge to push to where counties and building owners get out there and say, "I want you to design this and set this up to IPC." Just by you folks adopting the 2012 allowing IPC does not mean it is going to magically change tomorrow, but if you remove that, it is for sure not going to change. Committee Chair Kagawa: Thank you for that. One of the other reasons why problems with affordable housing is the length of time that permits sit there because time is money. Like you mentioned, that may be a reason why they find it easier to get their permits approved faster. Thank you. Are there any more questions? Thank you very much. Mr. Dylan: Thank you. Committee Chair Kagawa: Go ahead, Kika. He flew all the way from Honolulu. We appreciate all of the for and against testimony because that is what we are here for. PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 12 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 Mr. Bukoski: I apologize. I appreciate your folks' indulgence. If I could make a quick announcement, I lost my cell phone, if anyone finds a cell phone, please. Just to clarify, my understanding and I would like to know if I am incorrect on this, but the Po`ipu hotel you are referencing did not use the IPC. They used the engineered design, which is allowable, as I stated in my testimony, under Section 301.4 of the UPC. So I do not know of any project on Kaua`i in the last twelve (12) years that the IPC has been in place since 2007. Twelve (12) years not fifteen (15)years. I do not know of any project on the island of Kaua`i, Maui or Hawai`i Island, or O`ahu for that matter that has used the IPC and Section 301.3 that allows them the alternate method to employ the IPC. I do not know of any. If there is, I would love to know because we would like to understand how it is being used and if it is being used properly. There were studor vents installed in the hotel that you are referring, but it was done under an engineered design process, which is allowable under the UPC as it currently reads without the IPC alternative method. The other clarification I wanted to make, the plumbers are not bad people. My time at Office of Hawaiian Affairs (OHA), my kuleana was trying to tackle the homeless and affordable housing. So the plumbers and myself personally, we have all championed Additional Dwelling Units (ADUs), Inclusionary Zoning, and funding for Hawai`i Housing Finance and Development Corporation (HHFDC). We are working with the Lieutenant Governor's office as well as the Governor's office right now as a union to try to see if we can bring down costs and help them with the homeless and affordable housing problems. So we are just as involved as anyone else in trying to bring the cost of construction down, and that is not the issue. What we are trying to say here is that we should not have two (2) Codes. We heard about confusion and making things more cumbersome and more obstacles. That is exactly what we are doing. If there is a justifiable reason why we need that alternative method in there with the IPC, please, we would like to know the justifiable reason. We are reasonable people. We just do not do not know what that reason is. I think from the testimony you have heard neither do they. We just want to make sure that the record is clear. A lot of the things that they are saying that they can only do with the IPC can already be done with the UPC. I try to stay away from the politics and I keep it on the issue and the merit of the issue, but since we are going divulge into the politics, I do not know if everyone is aware that the Laborers Union is a member of the International Code Council, which is the author and publisher of the IPC. If we are going to throw rocks across the bow, then you have to look in the mirror. They actually promote studor vents which is a private device. We are talking about promoting individual devices, materials and whatnot. I also want to clarify a misstatement. If you look at their own testimony, not ours, if you look at their testimony and the cost comparisons, it is very clear that the costs under the UPC is half the cost of the materials under the IPC. It is half less under the UPC. That is their studies now, not ours. So on the labor side, we have to work on that, but that is why the Counties have the ability to amend and you folks have exercised that right. You folks have referred to certain sections in the IPC that make sense, and we have not opposed it because it is certain provisions. But when you replace an entire Code with a new Code that has not been vetted, reviewed, or amended in any way, shape, or form, it brings caution. The purpose of the State Building Code Council in the task force that was created back in 2005/2006, was to preserve the public's health and safety. We were not talking about economics at the time. We were not talking about the cost of construction. It was public health and safety and protecting resources and people's lives. In 2013, when the lobbyists, if you want to talk about politics, moved to change the complexion of the Board of the State Building Code Council and remove the only representative that really should be on PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 13 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 that Council, which is the Department of Health. They removed that member and replaced it with the GCA and the Building Industry Association (BIA). Now where is the scope of that State Building Code Council? We opposed it at the time and raised the same concerns that we are raising today, that the focus is going to shift from public health and safety to cost. You cannot place a cost on a human life. One (1) incident of cross-contamination where one (1) person dies is enough. There is no cost-savings that can justify the loss of a human life. I can show you hard data that shows that there has been loss of human life as a result of plumbing errors. That is why we are trying to be in this discussion, not to protect jobs like they want to portray, not to protect territory, but to protect the Code which we happen to believe in and has been working since 1965 in the County of Kaua`i, longer before then. 1945 was when the first Uniform Plumbing Code published nationally. So yes, there is a battle between the IPC and UPC, and I could go into more detail on that, but I will save you folks the heartache. Committee Chair Kagawa: What I will do, Kika, is I will send the minutes over from this meeting. It will go to the State Building Code Council. I think they need to know that there are some issues that they need to look deeper in on the Plumbing Code. I think that is the best avenue to really address some of the things you are saying because again, we are laypeople here. We are not familiar with buildings, plumbing, and what have you. That is why Councilmember Cowden is looking for a plumber herself. I cannot even fix a toilet. Mr. Bukoski: I agree. It is easy to come here and make general statements. But really on Codes, the devil are in details. It is almost as if the City and County of Honolulu entered a provision into the Kaua`i Ordinance and said, "Hey, do you know what? Under certain circumstances, we are going to replace the Kaua`i Ordinance with the City and County of Honolulu Ordinance. Under certain circumstances, we are just going to replace your Ordinances with City and County of Honolulu because it is more cost effective. That is what this is doing. Committee Chair Kagawa: Alright. Again, the IPC has been in for fifteen (15) years. Whether it is used or not is irrelevant because we are basically going to receive it and allow our current Code to remain while we have due diligence go on with the Building Council, our Building Division, and hopefully, Mr. Bukoski. Councilmember Chock, go ahead. Councilmember Chock: If I could hear from Lyle. Committee Chair Kagawa: Hang on. Kika, one (1) question from Councilmember Evslin. Councilmember Evslin: Given the proposed compromise that you made in your testimony earlier on getting parity between the latest published editions, do you think that the 2012 is an improvement over the 2006? Mr. Bukoski: Oh, definitely. It is ironic when we are talking about cost-savings and efficiencies that the other people on other side of the table are saying, "Table it. Leave it the way it is. Status quo, because the only loser is going to be the County of Kaua`i." We are saying, "Hey, do you know what? We should adopt the 2012, but just give us parity. Just make it the 2012 UPC and the 2012 IPC that PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 14 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 we are comparing apples-to-apples because when you read some of the testimony, data, and reports from the proponents of the IPC, it is dated back to 1995/1997." It is comparing their 2015 Code to our 2006 Code. It is not on the same playing field. All we are asking for is parity and we are supporting Bill No. 2612 as long as we have that parity. Committee Chair Kagawa: If you folks want to propose the amendment, you may. Whether you have the votes, time will tell. I am not ready to support an amendment. Mr. Bukoski: Committee Chair Kagawa, just to answer Councilwoman Cowden's question, IAPMO stands for International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials. Councilmember Cowden: Okay, thank you. It always helps clarity. BIA is Building Industry Association. Mr. Bukoski: BIA is Building Industry Association and GCA is General Contractors Association. Thank you. Councilmember Cowden: This is for the people watching so they can understand our dialogue. Thank you so much. Committee Chair Kagawa: Anyone else from the public wishing to speak on this matter. Seeing none, Lyle, we have a question from Councilmember Chock. I think you know what the question is. The amendment proposed by Mr. Bukoski. Sorry. Go ahead. Councilmember Chock: Thank you, Lyle. So we had this on our books for a long time now. I know it was the past Administration that introduced it, supported it, wanted to move on it, we moved down to this, and I just wanted to get a reason for the receipt at this time so that we are clear what the plans are moving forward. LYLE TABATA, Deputy County Engineer: Good morning, Committee Chair Kagawa and members. Lyle Tabata, Deputy County Engineer. Thank you for the question. Until recently, we have received more information and have heard both sides of the story of the communications. We are requesting more time to re-evaluate what has been presented to us. At this time, we are not prepared to move forward until I, myself, thoroughly review the facts. Councilmember Chock: Do you have any plans to reintroduce the amendment? Mr. Tabata: Not at this time. I am asking the Building Division to do a more detailed comparison for myself. Committee Chair Kagawa: Councilmember Cowden. Councilmember Cowden: How do you feel about the 2012 parity between UPC and IPC? Is that on what is being considered? PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 15 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 Mr. Tabata: That is what I need due diligence to complete. Committee Chair Kagawa: Councilmember Evslin. Councilmember Evslin: When you say that there has been new testimony, is that compromise language the new testimony? Mr. Tabata: A lot of what was spoken on the floor today is new to me. I did not receive and I believe from the minutes I will receive. I have been told that I will be contacted with more supporting information on either side. I will act from there and I have asked the State Building Code Council for a detail analysis. A lot of times when new versions supersede others, you and just focusing on amendments and I am going back to square one, review each Code in its entirety, which they are saying is huge volumes. So it is a lot of work. Councilmember Evslin: I know you all have been working on this for a long time and I am kind of coming in on right at the last minute, but it seems from my perspective that you are ninety-nine percent (99%) there and we have one (1) last little piece. So just so I understand the process here, why are we receiving it and not deferring it? I mean, the suggestion to receive came from you folks, but maybe Committee Chair Kagawa has an answer also, just so that I can get clarity for myself. Mr. Tabata: So that if it does come a time that I want to present the action, it would be complete and able to pass this body. Committee Chair Kagawa: From my end in our meeting yesterday with Lyle and Mayor Kawakami, hearing both sides of the argument, we did not feel comfortable in Kaua`i taking the lead and making the change that would be different from rest of the islands. This is a leadership role we are taking by addressing this Plumbing Code. All of the other Counties have not addressed it at their Council bodies. They are just going to wait until August 2020 when State's kicks in. That has been their stance on most of the proposed Code changes from the State Building Code Council. They do not address it at their respective Council bodies and make amendments. They just wait for the State one to kick in. Doug Haigh has taken a leadership role himself by trying to be the one that adopts and tries to give the Council a chance to amend at the Council-level, so we should appreciate Doug's effort in doing that. But by no means are we behind anyone. We are not behind anyone, so we are not lagging. What we are is we are taking our time, and making sure that the professionals do their job and bring a bill here when they are ready. We deferred this Bill for quite a while. Mayor Kawakami was sitting right there with us and we did not get the answers from our Building Division that made us comfortable to refute some of the earlier allegations from the previous Administration of the Plumbers Union. That is why we are still here. You have two (2) ways of dealing with a matter, receive would be the proper action for me, because we are not sure what the next amendments will look like or next bill will look like. Maybe we will be ready for the 2018 by then. So I think this is the proper action that I see. I agreed with Mayor Kawakami and I support his leadership and his decision. I agree that receipt would be the best at this time just to show the members of the unions that have participated on the State Building Code Council that we are not picking a side right now. We are not ready. The professionals are not ready and neither is the legislative body. That is how I feel. That is the reason. PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 16 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 Councilmember Evslin: The reason that I am confused is that there seems to be unanimous consent that 2012 is an improvement upon 2006. From my understanding, this came from our own Building Division from everyone who spoke today, and that there could be a cost to waiting a year and a half for this to implement on its own and the cost being higher construction costs in the meantime. Committee Chair Kagawa: We can defer, if you want. Councilmember Evslin: Is the anticipation that with the receipt, this will come back at some point? Committee Chair Kagawa: I am not that stubborn. If you want to defer it, we will defer it. Let us move on. There are a lot of people and a lot of items today. Do you want to defer it? Councilmember Evslin: I would feel comfortable deferring it. Committee Chair Kagawa: Alright, we are going to defer it. Thank you, Lyle. We are going to defer it. What should the motion be? Straight deferral? We do not want it showing up every Committee Meeting from now. Can we defer it until we are ready? Is that a good motion? Two (2) months. Okay. Councilmember Chock withdrew the motion to receive Bill No. 2612 for the record. Councilmember Kuali`i withdrew the second. Councilmember Evslin moved to defer Bill No. 2612 to the May 1, 2019 Committee Meeting, seconded by Councilmember Cowden, and unanimously carried. Committee Chair Kagawa: Motion carried. Next item, please. The Committee proceeded on its agenda item, as shown in the following Committee Report, which is incorporated herein by reference: CR-PWVS 2019-02: on PWVS 2019-01 Communication (02/07/2019) from Committee Chair Kagawa, requesting the presence of the Deputy County Engineer, to provide a briefing on the expansion of the Kekaha Landfill, as well as the status of the landfill operations, including addressing the issue of the requirement to utilize dirt as cover for the landfill, who is responsible to provide the material, and any other related matters regarding landfill expansion. (Received for the Record.) PWVS COMMITTEE MEETING 17 FEBRUARY 27, 2019 There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 9:58 a.m. Respectfully submitted, Allison S. Arakaki Council Services Assistant I APPROVED at the Committee Meeting held on March 20, 2019: ROSS KAGAWA Chair, PWVS Committee