Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAbout11-25-2009 Public Works Elderly Affairs Committee Minutes MINUTES PUBLIC WORKS/ELDERLY AFFAIRS COMMITTEE November 25, 2009 A meeting of the Public Works/Elderly Affairs Committee of the Council of the County of Kauai, State of Hawaii, was called to order by Councilmember Tim Bynum, Chair, at the Historic County Building, Room 201, Lihu`e, Kauai, on Wednesday, November 25, 2009, at 10:40 a.m., after which the following members answered the call of the roll: Honorable Tim Bynum Honorable Dickie Chang Honorable Jay Furfaro Honorable Daryl W. Kaneshiro Honorable Derek S. K. Kawakami Honorable Bill "Kaipo" Asing, Ex-Officio Member Honorable Lani T. Kawahara, Ex-Officio Member TIM BYNUM: Chair of the Public Works/Elderly Affairs Committee calls this Committee to order. Let the record reflect that members are present with the exception of Councilmember Furfaro who is excused. And actually is walking in the room right now. So let the record reflect that all members are present. And we're going to take up agenda item PWE 2009- 4. The Committee proceeded on its agenda items as follows, and as shown in the following Committee reports which are incorporated herein by reference: CR-PWE 2009-07:on PWE 2009-4 Communication (11/19/2009) from Committee Chair Tim Bynum, requesting agenda time for a presentation from Howard Wiig, Energy Analyst, Department of Business, Economic Development, and Tourism on the International Energy Conservation Code, as it relates to Bill No. 2332 (Energy Code) [Received for the record.] There being no objections, the Committee recessed at 11:40 a.m. The Committee reconvened at 1:46 p.m., and proceeded as follows: Mr. Bynum: And so I'll call to order... call back into order the Public Works/Elderly Affairs Committee. And if we could have the clerk read Bill 2332. Bill No. 2332 A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE AMENDING CHAPTER 12, ARTICLE 6, KAUAI COUNTY CODE 1987 RELATING TO THE ENERGY CODE [This item was deferred.] JAY FURFARO: I would like to make comment to my colleagues at the table that as stated earlier I will be submitting a written notice acknowledging my potential conflict and I will be leaving the meeting, due to my association with Habitat and Affordable Housing. Mr. Bynum: Thank you Councilmember Furfaro. For the record Councilmember Furfaro is recusing himself from this Committee hearing. From an abundance of caution, understandably. So we had testimony earlier from Mr. Wiig regarding the Energy Bill and took public testimony. I have two (2) amendments that I would like the body to consider. I've asked Councilmember Kawakami if he would introduce them by request. One (1) of the amendments is a housekeeping amendment that staff has worked with the Building Division, making technical changes. And if necessary we can get an explanation from staff of what the... so that's my understanding correct? This has been split into one for technical... so I'd be looking for an introduction to this amendment. DEREK S. K. KAWAKAMI: Yeah. Okay. DARYL W. KANESHIRO: Just for procedural process, we still need a motion on the first Bill first, before we take up the amendment. Just for procedural purpose. Mr. Bynum: Thank you for that help Councilmember Kaneshiro. That's correct. Mr. Kaneshiro: Then you probably want to take public testimony. Mr. Bynum: Right. So if I could have a motion on the main Bill. Mr. Kaneshiro: Just on the main bill itself, so we can have discussions. DICKIE CHANG: Move to approve. Mr. Kaneshiro: I second that. Mr. Chang moved for approval of Bill No. 2322, seconded by Mr. Kaneshiro. Mr. Bynum: Okay. And I'm sorry Ken, I didn't notice that you wanted to testify on this bill? There being no objections, the rules were suspended. 2 KEN TAYLOR: No. I was just wondering if we could get copies of the amendments. Mr. Kaneshiro: Well it's, we're working on that. Mr. Bynum: We're working on it. Okay... so there are two (2) amendments, one (1) is technical in nature, you can ask the staff if they have a copy available for the public. Mr. Kaneshiro: Well I don't have one. Mr. Bynum: We can do the technical one first. Mr. Kaneshiro: Staff is still circulating, so I want to make it a point for the record that, not only does Mr. Taylor doesn't have one but WE as staff doesn't have... we are here as Councilmembers don't have one either so I think... you know... I just wanted to point that out because it just appeared. Mr. Bynum: So does the Committee members need some time to review these amendments? Mr. Kawakami: Yeah. Can we take a ten (10) minute recess? Mr. Bynum: Let's take a five (5) minute recess. There being no objections, the Committee recessed at 1:59 p.m. The Committee reconvened at 2:05 p.m., and proceeded as follows: Mr. Bynum: Okay we'll call this meeting of the Public Energy... Public Works/Elderly Affairs Committee back to order. The rules are suspended and with us is Doug Haigh from the Building Department and we have some questions for you. So maybe you could just start... I'm introducing an amendment that would take away the exemption for affordable gap group household as determined by the Housing Director and I know you're familiar with this, so can you just explain to the Committee what's... what this provision exempts affordable housing from and what would be the effect of deleting this exemption. There being no objections, the rules were suspended. DOUG HAIGH: Doug Haigh, Department of Public Works, Building Division. The exemption exempts low income housing to gap group as determined by the Housing Director and that language would really need to be edited a little bit to bring it up to the current language. I met with the Housing Agency last week 3 and that's old language, so that we would amend if we wanted to keep but just kind of changing the words. But it's exempting that housing from compliance with wall insulation requirements as required by the 2009 IECC code. Mr. Bynum: And... Does Councilmembers have questions? Mr. Kawakami: So what is the Housing Agency's comments? Are they in support of it, not support... Mr. Haigh: Well they just the language itself, the workforce housing... they wanted to put language in there that would include... to get the language right I believe... there's clarification on low income housing to gap group where they change the language a little bit to be more current standards and the name of the Director of that agency has changed, the title. So that would have to change. That position no longer exists so that would have to be (inaudible) Mr. Kawakami: Well um. So they support the requirement, do they support this amendment? Mr. Haigh: I cannot speak for the Housing Agency. Mr. Kawakami: Well you know for me, it would help to get some of their comments because if they're the authority for affordable housing and gap group housing for the county it would be good to hear what their stance is. So you know, I understand the intent of the amendment but just for further clarification I'd like to hear some direction from that agency, yeah? So we can send a communication over or... Mr. Bynum: So is it the Committee's preference that we defer this in order to allow that... Mr. Kawakami: You know just to state for the record, I have no problem with this... you know I did have a problem with it at first and then after hearing some additional information but just... I'd like to hear you know what the Housing Agency's position is. Mr. Bynum: So can we see if the Housing Agency is available. I was told by the Administration last night that they would be available today so. Mr. Haigh: I did meet with them in detail over the Ordinance yesterday so. Mr. Bynum: Mr. Haigh if you could stick around, we're going to 4 recess this item and take the next item just for the sake of time. Mr. Haigh: Okay. Mr. Bynum: Because I think we probably won't have questions about the next one but hang around. So we're going to recess this item and move to the next item while we're waiting for Housing and if the clerk could read that. The meeting was called back to order, and proceeded as follows: CR- PWE 2009-08: on Bill No. 2335 A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE AMENDING CHAPTER 13, ARTICLE 4, SEC. 13-4.1, OF THE KAUAI COUNTY CODE 1987, AS AMENDED, RELATING TO THE ELECTRICAL CODE AND ADOPTING THE NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE, 2008 EDITION AS A STANDARD FOR ALL ELECTRICAL WORK [Approved.] Mr. Bynum: Mr. Haigh, you want to come back up? While we're waiting for Housing, I can ask you some questions. So you've been a member of the (inaudible) Committee that worked on revising these codes? There being no objections, the rules were suspended. Mr. Haigh: Yes. I am a member of the State Building Code Council and it wasn't a (inaudible) Committee. Mr. Bynum: Okay. I'm sorry. Mr. Haigh: Howard was... headed up the sub-committee for the Energy Code issues. Mr. Bynum: Oh okay. Mr. Haigh: And I also participated in that sub-committee. Mr. Bynum: And that included members from all of the islands? Mr. Haigh: That is correct. All four (4) county building officials were both members of the State Building Code Council plus we were also members 5 of this sub-committee. And also there's representatives from industry in that sub- committee. Mr. Bynum: And this Energy Code has been adopted by the other counties? Mr. Haigh: The 2006 IECC was adopted at the State level and all other three (3) counties adopted with no changes. They adopted the State language except for Administrative issues, each county does their own Administrative language but the technical side of the code, Hawaii, Maui, Oahu adopted the code as the Committee had approved it. Mr. Bynum: And the changes from what the committee approved that are in this version, are there ones other than this exemption for affordable gap group housing? Mr. Haigh: Yes. Mr. Bynum: And maybe you could... while we're waiting go over it. Mr. Haigh: Okay. What we did jump ahead to the 2009 instead of the 2006. The one big change is the one that we've been discussing the low income housing and also single wall housing exemption for wall insulation. We also are requiring for conditioned spaces to meet the R thirty (30) insulation for your roof insulation, so if you're doing a house coming in for building permit with central air, you need to go up to the R thirty (30) roof insulation required by the 2009 IECC. The 2006 also had that same requirement but the other three (3) counties allowed the alternative methods to be used for conditioned residential spaces also so and really the alternative methods that Howard had discussed, they and he mentioned this go to an R nineteen (19) type insulation, so we're requiring if you're going to put in central air, we're requiring a higher level of insulation. Which just... and this came about during our discussions in the sub-committee where the National Energy lab representative, he expressed concern that our alternatives are not really addressing a centralized air house... a house that's being air conditioning because you're not getting that equivalent energy savings, if you're going to do air conditioning. So we put that requirement into the bill. The difference between the 2009 and the 2006 IECC is the solar heat gain co-efficient. For us we have the point three (.3) solar heat gain co-efficient as part of the code that's in the code itself, where the 2006 had a point four (.4). And the solar heat gain co-efficient talks about the performance of the window to resist heat gain by solar energy. But we put in an exception to allow a point six five (.65) solar heat gain co-efficient for jalousie windows, none of the other counties provided that. With that it makes permissible to have jalousie windows and if you put on a exterior window screen, 6 you're going to meet the point... you can meet the point six five (.65) solar heat gain co-efficient, so you can even use jalousie with regular glass, a clear glass if you have the exterior window screen. And we thought that was important and we did... we consulted with Howard on this and he said he approved this revision. He said it made sense because with the increased ventilation you're getting with the louvers is really is providing... it's a good solution for Hawaii. Mr. Bynum: So I could interject, that's a good example of where the International Standard didn't really fit with the culture of Kauai and Hawaii and you provided for that to make sure that people can continue to use jalousie windows in new construction. Mr. Haigh: Correct. The wall insulation requirements are the same for all... for the 2009 and the 2006 have the same wall insulations requirements. Except we have provided the exemption for low income housing and for single wall construction for additions and repairs. The other counties do not have that provision for single wall construction or low income housing. Lighting, that's the place where we have a difference. The 2009 energy code requires that you have high efficient at that fifty percent (50%) of the lighting and I'm talking residential right now, fifty percent (50%) of the lighting has to be high efficiency lighting. And the 2006 code did not have that requirement. So that is an upgrade. And we've... we feel that's well justified. The use of compact fluorescents is kind of becoming standard and I think it's pretty common knowledge that they're much more efficient and definitely pay for themselves so it's not a burden, it's actually something that would be better for the homeowners. And that's... those are the major residential issues that we've addressed in the code. The other thing was pools but we... all four (4) counties require that the... that there be pool covers for heated pools, with an exemption if you have alternative energy heating your pool, I think... I believe it's fifty percent (50%), then you don't have to have the pool covered. So that was the change. But all four (4) counties are identical. Mr. Bynum: Any questions for Mr. Haigh? Mr. Kaneshiro: I have a question. Mr. Bynum: Councilmember Kaneshiro. Mr. Kaneshiro: So what we're seeing here today is the 2009 code? Mr. Haigh: That is correct. Mr. Kaneshiro: And none of the other counties has really adopted a 7 2009 code? Is that what I'm hearing? Mr. Haigh: Yes. That's correct. Mr. Kaneshiro: Because you said they were referred back to the 2006 and so forth which was (inaudible) Mr. Haigh: Because when we started the process at the State level, the 2000 code... the 2009 code wasn't out yet. And so we went through the whole process with the State Building code council, and adopted... and by the time we were done with the 2006, the 2009 had come out. The other counties jumped ahead with the 2006 and Don and I were, our staff, we talked about you know the 2009 right's there... we know it's more efficient, especially it does have efficiencies on the commercial side, why... and the changes aren't that great, why don't we just go ahead and jump to the 2009, and so we did make that decision. Mr. Kaneshiro: So my understanding is that the 2009 code requires all residents from now on, if they're going to build a home, that roof and the walls have to be insulated. Mr. Haigh: That is not... that is not part of the 2009 International Energy Conservation Code, that is a requirement that we had put into the amendment. That requirement was developed at the State building code council and Howard's sub-committee and so all the state building code amendments and all the county amendments have that provision that habitable spaces are not exempted from the building envelope requirement. The 2000... the International Energy Conservation Code has a provision which exempts non-conditioned spaces from the building envelope requirements. So this was a significant upgrade to the code that was made and it was made largely recommendation from Howard Wiig and the experiences Honolulu, Maui had already adopted quite a bit of this for all residential so... looking at the trends that we've been seeing... two (2) big issues, probably ninety percent (90%) of air condition homes are not air conditioned at time of building permit, most of the air condition is retro-fit which is a... particularly many times they do not get building permits at all for that activity. Howard mentioned... well he (inaudible) study where I think it was in the last eight (8) years and I'm not sure on this number as far as years, but it went from like twenty percent (20%) of homes from Honolulu were air conditioned to now fifty percent (50%) of the homes are air conditioned so our feeling was if we don't do it, we're going to... we know that there's quite a few houses out there that are going to have some form of air conditioning and not the type of building to have that air conditioning, they're going to be wasting energy. And we know that we're going to have homes that are aren't as comfortable as a home that has the building envelope requirements, the insulation requirements. 8 Mr. Kaneshiro: So but the bottom line, the reality is the bottom line is basically even if you live in a cool area and you don't need air conditioner insulation, this bill... what we're passing today is that before you give out the building permit, it has to be included in the building drawings. Mr. Haigh: That is correct. Unless... I mean the architect could do a study and like... Palmer Hafdahl the architect mentioned there is ability for them to analyze the building more thoroughly and not follow the prescriptive language of the code. And so if they have special circumstances and they can prove that they're achieving the goals of the code with alternative ways, then we would look at approving that. But basically it does require all homes to have the roof insulation, the wall insulation and the higher performance windows except we do have that provision for jalousies. Mr. Kaneshiro: So once this bill is passed and it's signed by the Mayor, as of the next day every single one that comes in with a building permit would have to make that requirement? Mr. Haigh: Well as the bill reads, we have a hundred and twenty (120) days after the Mayor signs it, before it goes into effect. And it will not affect existing building permit applications that are in the system. Mr. Bynum: So just so I'm very clear, right now in every county, every habitable space has to have this building envelope insulation wall, roof and energy efficient windows? Mr. Haigh: That is correct. Mr. Bynum: Okay. And that is the case in our... should we adopt it, with this one (1) exemption for affordable and gap group housing and that's the one I'm suggesting that we remain consistent with the rest of the state. Have I got that right? Mr. Haigh: I'm just checking one (1) thing... There... if there's condition spaces with the very low energy use, then they can be exempt, they are exempt also. Item number one (1) of the exemptions under 101.5.2. And that's kind of allows for creative alternatives. Mr. Bynum: And that's the flexibility that Mr. Hafdahl and Mr. Wiig were discussing about, this building code, all of the IECC codes have more flexibility? Mr. Haigh: And this is one (1) aspect of that. 9 Mr. Bynum: Any other questions for Mr. Haigh? Mr. Kawakami: Yeah. Mr. Bynum: Councilmember Kawakami. Mr. Kawakami: Can you explain Section 402.4.1.1 un-conditioned building exemption. BILL "KAIPO" ASING: What page is that? Mr. Kawakami: This is page ninety-eight (98). Ninety-eight (98). Mr. Haigh: Page ninety-eight (98) you said? Mr. Kawakami: Yeah. Mr. Haigh: 402.4.1.1 un-condition building? Mr. Kawakami: Yeah. Mr. Haigh: Um. This section talks about... when you go to the base code, this section is talking about your infiltration. Building-type building, so if you're air conditioning a building, you don't want the air conditioning... the conditioned air to easily escape the building and you don't want the hot air to easily come into the building. Now if you're designing a house that's un-conditioned, clearly you want the air... I mean Hawaii you want the air exchange for an un- conditioned building because you want to get the maximum ventilation. So this one is providing that exemption for un-conditioned buildings, the exemption. But we do require free vent fenestration that's referring to windows... window type things, okay so it's got to be at least fourteen percent (14%) of the floor air so we are requiring a certain amount of windows. And then we're also requiring that the interior doors be capable of being locked in the open position so you can get the ventilation between rooms and requiring that at a minimum... that there be ceiling fans (inaudible) in living areas and bedrooms. So the key of this code is if you're going to create a home, for natural ventilation, we're not going to restrict that, we want to encourage that. But we want to make sure that you have the potential to put in ceiling fans in the future, in case you know it's determined that this house... there is not enough natural ventilation and certainly ceiling fans is a very energy efficient way of creating ventilation in the house. And this came from, I mean this is one of the provisions that Howard had developed over the years. Mr. Kawakami: Couple more questions. 10 Mr. Bynum: Sure. Mr. Kawakami: You know and this is not me just pushing back because I want to push back on something but I have some sincere concerns about us adding to the cost of construction in Hawaii when it's already expensive you know for a regular person my age to go and buy a house and at the same time we want to help protect them you know... protect their investments, I see the value and we talked to... what is his name, Mr. Wiig and you know he even admitted that eh the number one thing to do to cool your house down is roof insulation so as long as there's options of you know solar, fans, solar attic fans and radiant barriers, I think its great, I think it's a smart move, I got no problem with us requiring that but you know I'm trying to figure out how wall insulation works because from what I understand one of the concerns is eh it does a great job of absorbing heat, that's what it does, right? Doesn't reflect heat, it's not a radiant barrier but it absorbs heat, so in the day it cools the house down and when night time comes and the temperature drops, it releases this heat so now you got a hotter house at night. Is that true, or is that false? Or is that an urban legend and I... that's why they say it's such a great value on the mainland you know... you could have hot days and you know it's absorbing this heat, when the night comes the temperature drops significantly and so it releases this heat to help warm the house. But in Hawaii, we're temperate and we don't get the big fluctuation in temperature from day time to night time. So I'm not sure that's true or that somebody pulling my leg, but it is a concern because I've heard stories that eh you know they insulated the house in the day it's great, at night it's hot, it's like day time so they run the ac at night. Mr. Haigh: On different insulations act differently. When you have a mass wall, like a (inaudible) wall, it will absorb heat and release heat. Your phone insulations, your (inaudible) insulations aren't really storing heat, they're just reducing the flow of the heat. But if the house is warm inside and it's cool outside, your transfer of energy through the walls is going to be less just like if it's hot outside, cool inside. So you could have that phenomenon, of course you want to over come that phenomenon by having natural ventilation so that the resistance of the walls (inaudible) change in temperature is irrelevant because you're bringing in this cool air which is much more efficient at exchanging the temperature than the transfer between the walls. The wall issue is one that you know technically... from a clear technical ground isn't anywhere near as important as the ceiling and roof as Howard explained but you get additional benefits of the sound insulation. Most of your insulation provides also a sound barrier and a lot of our homes now are on smaller lots, tighter neighborhoods, especially newer homes, affordable homes and so the sound becoming part of the comfort level in our community, so the insulation helps on that. After the... Howard left it he and I talked a little bit about... because he mentioned here some alternatives for wall insulation. He was saying the.... Using new type of paints may be appropriate for Hawaii. And then he's also talking about using radiant barriers in the walls and I think those are good ideas, 11 we should really... and I asked him, well can you get me the answer tomorrow? He said "no" but he's working on that. He said hopefully within a couple of weeks he said he can come up with some language for that type of protection for walls which would be I don't know what the price difference would be but it would be... one more that would be in-tuned with Hawai`i's environment as an alternative because it's true, you don't have a big temperature difference between the inside air and the outside air in a home, on the walls. What you get on the south side and the west side walls, you get the sun beating on the walls and creates (inaudible -phone ringing) temperature. So that's where the radiant barrier and the high performance paint he was talking about would counteract that so those are alternatives that I certainly would think would be appropriate for us to look at. To the wall insulation. But those would not provide a sound benefit of the wall insulation. Mr. Bynum: Anything else? Mr. Kaneshiro: Just a follow up question from Councilmember Kawakami's, then at this point until we get the answers there's no sense us moving on this bill because if we move on this bill currently everyone would have to put some sort of a insulation in the house like you said because this is what the bill is calling for and not basically painting. Mr. Haigh: You know, Howard brought that up today... Mr. Kaneshiro: Right but you just brought that up too. Mr. Haigh: And that was the first I've heard on the paint one, I've heard the radiant barrier and you know and that's why I went and talked with him because I thought it would be appropriate and he said within a couple weeks he feels he would get some language that we can look at including that into the bill. Mr. Kaneshiro: Okay and that's the part I wanted to make because if we're going to vote on this bill today, even if he finds this product, the way this bill is written, we're going to have to bring this bill back on the floor and amend it to allow that. Mr. Haigh: And we could amend it at the full Council if we... if you chose. I mean there is that option... Mr. Kaneshiro: Well and... Mr. Haigh: But you know how you want to manage your business, so I mean. Mr. Bynum: Other questions? So what it comes down to is are 12 we going to put a barrier in the walls one way or the other, radiant, paint or insulation. But what you just said right now, if the sun is... if we don't insulate the walls it's likely that the home will be hotter in the evening and/or during the day. Mr. Haigh: Correct. And certainly in the afternoon. Mr. Bynum: Okay. And certainly the afternoon. You know I am promoting this amendment because it's consistent with what your committee recommended, it's consistent with what all of the other communities... with all the other islands have adopted and I don't understand the logic of saying because this house was built affordable it should be a less habitable and less energy efficient building, I don't understand that logic and to me homes that are built pursuant to affordable housing should have the same energy efficiency and the same livability as homes that are built for the market and so that's my point. Yes, Councilmember Kawakami. Mr. Kawakami: Yeah and I don't think anybody's arguing that point right now as far as the affordable housing side. I think that the point that I'm arguing is you know whether we're going to require the regular local person or malihini coming in that just wants to build one house that has an architect that sites the house where it captures the tradewinds or he designs the house to you know be as energy efficient as possible, whether we're going to require or mandate something that goes above and beyond what's feasible and you know at the end of the day I don't want to approve something that's just going to cost somebody extra money and that's my concern I mean you know and I need more time, so I'm going to ask for a deferral. You know I need more time, I need more information and that's the only issue I have right now is whether we're going to you know go above and beyond because some of the comments I get from the hurricane code is like eh this thing is above and beyond you know it's almost something like overkill, the next hurricane the whole house going fly away instead of the roof. But that's just speculation yeah up until the next hurricane comes and we'll see. But I just want to make sure that if this is going to impact housing for our people, you know what I mean it's already ruff and as much as people say it's only... how much more additional cost did you guys come up with for a fifteen hundred or two thousand square foot home to insulate the walls? Mr. Haigh: We're looking at about three thousand dollars ($3,000). Mr. Kawakami: Okay. Mr. Haigh: The total. 13 Mr. Bynum: To insulate the walls? Mr. Haigh: No for the whole. The whole envelope. Mr. Kawakami: The whole envelope only three thousand (3,000). Mr. Haigh: I have a friend who's building a house right now where his contractor quoted him twenty-five hundred dollars ($2,500) for insulation. But I don't think that included the upgrading the windows also. Mr. Kawakami: So you know in that case I just maybe I could have more time. Mr. Bynum: If that's the Committee pleasure. That works for me. We have Housing. Oh I'm sorry Councilmember Kawahara. Ms. Kawahara: Yeah I'm not part of your Committee. Mr. Bynum: It's okay. Ms. Kawahara: Thank you. Just overall the 2009 is more efficient? Mr. Haigh: Yes. Ms. Kawahara: Basically, so what we would be (inaudible) on Kauai would be just a more efficient program? Mr. Haigh: That is correct. And on the commercial side too. Ms. Kawahara: And on the commercial side. So regardless the cost of individual houses or for a building, overall it's more efficient and as the county we've been trying to make everything efficient, our own operations, everything else that we're doing so it seems to be in line that adopting a 2009 that just promotes more efficiency, would you say that be something that's in line with what we're already doing and not... not taking away or harming what people are doing in 2006. Mr. Haigh: The 2009 was the next upgrade and it went to higher standards than the 2006, in particularly on the commercial side the equipment... the air conditioning equipment is going to be more efficient, it's required to be more efficient than it is in the 2006 because there's also been technological gains in the three (3) between the code development and also there's a stronger national movement awareness that energy efficiency is beyond just 14 comfort, it's also some consider national security to reduce the amount of energy. Ms. Kawahara: Thank you for bringing that up and as of right now all the other counties... all the other counties are doing this? Mr. Haigh: And we are... at the state level, we are working on the 2009 amendments. I've been incorporated several things that have been coming up in those meetings and I think I've got a jump on the major things like I just mentioned earlier this wall, alternative method of providing energy efficient walls, I want to push Howard to accelerate a little bit and I would like to be able to bring that back to you folks as a potential amendment. Ms. Kawahara: So we're talking about an increase of three thousand ($3,000) per home, it's talking about the whole envelope not just the walls. Mr. Haigh: That's correct. Ms. Kawahara: Okay and then if we go beyond just thinking about individual cost, I would assume that overall we're doing something better for the environment, we're doing something better for the people that are going to be living in those homes and generally following and living the way we're talking about we're going to live, be more energy efficient and...causing less use of resources and causing less harm to the environment. Mr. Haigh: The intent of the code is to save energy but I mean Councilmembers are making good points in that, if you're not air conditioning the home, you're not seeing energy savings and that's an argument that I used quite a bit because this insulation requirements aren't new on the state level, as Howard mentioned Oahu adopted them in 2000, Maui adopted them shortly after, I personally resisted it for Kauai because my feeling was if we're not air conditioning the homes, we're not saving energy so don't tell me to do this to save energy because we're not conditioning the homes, but in the last five (5) years I look around and I see a lot of condition homes and I hear my kids doing their homework up in my (inaudible) daddy it's hot up here, in the afternoon because the heat's radiating through the roof and you know between my kids yelling at me and looking at all these ac's, it changed my mind. And that was a big leap for all of us you know we all talked about these issues at the state building code council when we put this requirement for un-conditioned spaces. It was a leap for us but we felt that it's the right thing to do at this time. Ms. Kawahara: Thank you. Mr. Bynum: Councilmember Kaneshiro. 15 Mr. Kaneshiro: Thank you Chair. I'm puzzled at how... if I build a house, a fifteen hundred square foot house, on a hill, I got enough you know circulation and air coming through the house but I got to spend three thousand ($3,000) more, how is that house that I build more efficient? Mr. Haigh: Well to use my house as a example. My house is super ventilated, my wife had me close up windows after we built it because she didn't like being quite so exposed but I have ventilation all over the place. It's fairly shaded, I have huge trees on the east side of the house, but in the afternoons the heat radiating because I have arch 80 and TNG decks you know, open beam ceiling, the radiant heat radiates into that mezzanine where the kids work on the computer, do their homework and stuff and it's hot. Because the heat gain and also if you look at attic spaces, I don't know if Howard mentioned this but your attic un-vented attic, un-insulation attic you get temperatures up to hundred eighty degrees, so you're looking at a temperature differential of a hundred and eighty and your space which is probably you would like it to be in the low eightys in Hawaii, with good ventilation, low eightys is fairly comfortable, well all of a sudden that differential is going to be radiating heat into your space and it's going to make your home more uncomfortable, no matter how much air is flowing through, you're still going to have the radiant heat. Mr. Kaneshiro: I can see for roof insulation but I'm still wondering about wall insulation. Mr. Haigh: Yeah and that... there's logic to what you're saying.. . Mr. Kaneshiro: You know this bill... this bill we have before us... Mr. Haigh: There's logic to what you're saying. Mr. Kaneshiro: Wait. Let me... Mr. Haigh: Okay. Okay. Mr. Kaneshiro: Let me tell you what we have before us. We have a bill right now before us that if we vote on it also requires a roof insulation and a wall insulation, now so you know I'm having a little problem about that, like Mr. Kawakami's having... you know where is the efficiency for wall insulation if you got all this the rest of the factors, you know been able to get the cool air blow through the house. Mr. Haigh: But you still... I mean particularly on your west walls, you get a lot of radiant heat in the afternoons, and the south walls if you 16 don't have adequate... I mean if you have roof overhang you know you're going to cut back on the amount of heat... Mr. Kaneshiro: Doug. Mr. Haigh: But. Mr. Kaneshiro: I planted a tree on my west wall. Mr. Haigh: There you go. Mr. Kaneshiro: Shade my west wall, why do I need to spend that much more money to do you know, that's the question. Mr. Haigh: Yeah and that's where you have... you have your architect calculate what's going on with the house and come to us and say I've done these measures to provide the equivalent planting trees on the west side, absolutely that's a great solution, I mean that is a great solution. Kapa`a Fire Station that's one of the things we're doing there is putting trees on the west side to minimum the heat gain so you know those are alternatives and those are alternatives that an architect could come to us and justify and not put in insulation. Mr. Kaneshiro: Okay so you're saying those are justifications... Mr. Haigh: But the architect needs to do this study, he's got to do the work to say it's going to work. He's got to take professional responsibility. Mr. Kaneshiro: Okay. Mr. Bynum: So that's the flexibility Mr. Hafdahl talked about? Mr. Haigh: Correct. Mr. Bynum: That this code allows for that flexibility if you have unique circumstances or another way to accomplish the same goal, you can do that? Mr. Haigh: Yep. Mr. Bynum: Okay. Other questions? Mr. Kawakami: So describe that process, what would I have to... Mr. Haigh: Okay... 17 Mr. Kawakami: What would I have to show you to be exempt? Do we have a set of parameters? Mr. Haigh: Um. In this code. Mr. Kawakami: You know what to be fair maybe i£.. I'm going to ask for a deferral, if we're going to go into a deferral, I can send a communication later on Doug. Mr. Haigh: Okay that would be better. Because that would give us a chance to really give you a good answer. That would be much better. Mr. Kawakami: Yeah. Mr. Haigh: Because I don't want to give a.... Mr. Bynum: Okay. Any other questions for Doug? Thank you very much. Does the Councilmembers want to speak with the Housing Director? Mr. Kawakami: Yeah. Mr. Bynum: Okay. Aloha Eugene, if you could state your name for the record. EUGENE K. JIMENEZ (HOUSING DIRECTOR): My name is Eugene Jimenez and I'm the Housing Director for the County of Kauai. Mr. Bynum: Councilmember Kawakami. Mr. Kawakami: And I just asked a question, what's you guys position on the affordable housing exemption? Should it be exempt, should we not exempt, are we going to go green, what direction do you want to take? Mr. Jimenez: Okay I've just received the, you know the floor amendment to Bill No. 2332 and I realize the Council has a lot more questions to answer and I like Doug, I'll answer the questions but I just wanted to clarify certain things. I'd like to have time if in fact this is going to be deferred, where I can come back with a more comprehensive answer. As the amendment is written right now, we would support not exempting, at this point in time but you know I know there's a lot of things that are going to be happening. Number one we had some, just for your information, we had some questions when I had reviewed this with my staff and I had also like to thank our Building superintendent because he had provided 18 us with a lot of information because you know this stuff about the glass and all that... I'm not a building person, however; we felt you know that we would like any affordable and/or gap group housing to be similar to those in the community. And the reason why we say that is, we do implement a buy back and on one hand you have a home that may be insulated and on the other hand be half insulated, so until I hear you know which way (inaudible) is going, I'd like some time to address it more comprehensively. I don't know if it answers your question. Mr. Kawakami: No, it does. I mean it answers the question that we need more time. Mr. Bynum: Any other questions for... Thank you Eugene. Mr. Asing: I have a question. Mr. Bynum: I'm sorry. If you could hold on a second, Council Chair. Mr. Asing: Eugene then I suspect that you're going to be working with the Building Division, Doug Haigh and working out your amendments as you view it with Doug and when Doug gets through he will be making those changes to the Ordinance, am I correct? Is that the process? Mr. Jimenez: I'd be more than happy to work with Doug and the Building Division in coming up with the proposed amendments and we can work together and come up with one (1) comprehensive package as opposed to... Mr. Asing: Well I would think that would be the better way. Mr. Jimenez: Sure. Mr. Asing: Rather than have you make some amendments and Doug is doing something else. I think from the Administration, we should have one (1) thought process... Mr. Jimenez: Your thoughts are well taken. Mr. Asing: put together. Mr. Jimenez: Thank you. Mr. Asing: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Bynum: Any other questions for Eugene? Thank you very 19 much. Mr. Jimenez: And just a comment, you know Daryl lives in a puka not on a hill. Mr. Kaneshiro: It's half way down the hill, just to have it clarified. It's not all the way down. Mr. Bynum: Okay I'll call this meeting back to order. Do we want to entertain a deferral now or are there further discussion? Mr. Chang: I'd like to make a motion to defer. Mr. Kaneshiro: Seconded. Mr. Bynum: All those in favor? Committee Members: Aye. Mr. Bynum: Any opposed? None, motion carries. And I believe that's the end of business in the Public Works Committee and for today, Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Upon motion duly made by Councilmember Chang, and seconded by Councilmember Kaneshiro, and unanimously carried, Bill No. 2332 was deferred. There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 2:39 p.m. Respectfully submitted, ~ ~~~~~~~M~~~D Darrellyne M. Simao Council Services Assistant I APPROVED at the Committee Meeting held on December 9, 2009: TIM BYNUM Chair, Public Works/Elderly Affairs Committee 20